XM & Sirius Satellite Radio

ashutoshsm

FYI
The ScreenSavers, a neat tech show on TechTV, recently conducted road tests with XM and Sirius, both with cassette modulation adapters. They tested some kind of Kenwood (IIRC) Sirius receiver, and the Delphi XM SkyFi radio.

They blasted (in less-than-vague terms) Sirius' compression artefacts and muddy sound, especially in the high frequency range. They did say it has somewhat better bass than XM, whih they found to be a bit more "boomy". But they commented that that was easy to mask with head-unit adjustment, unlike the Sirius artefacts.

They had some cool shots of the interfaces of both systems (mounted on top of the dash, connected by cassette and cigarette lighter powered). They also poped the Delphi into and out of the SkyFi boombox - a $69 add-on that makes the unit portable!

abfisch

Has anyone painted the black roof mount antennas to match the cars appearance???? Do this decrease signal quality???????? I had an XM Delphi radio installed. Very nice and entertaining on long hauls. Just want to know if it can be painted without degrading the signal quality.

Thanks.

ashutoshsm

I've tested reception with over 8 inches of snow blocking the antenna, and not had a problem. However, paint characteristics may be different

I would suggest you try to find an answer at dedicated XM forums such as clubxm or xmfan.

kidevo1

I dont know if this has already been mentioned. But I tinkered with a buddies jenson unit today. It could not pickup a signal until after we left the gas station...probably due to the roof?

Also...the FM reception was poorer and I could not get any AM signals. My buddy was told the sirius setup draws extra power which in turn degrades the ability of the head unit to pickup any signals? I dont get it..

Either way...I would want my AM sports talk radio from time to time.

FWIW..

mdsupercooper

Yes, you can paint only the TRK-SR20S (Sirius)antenna. The XM version, that looks exactly like the Sirius model above but is now discontinued, can be painted too. You will have no problems as long as you paint it with a NON-METALLIC finish. A few of the Antenna Specialties antennae can be painted too but I'd carefully look at the documentation on each model. Good luck

mdsupercooper

When I first looked into getting satellite radio, I read an article in Sound and Vision in which they hooked up both units to a compatible receiver (not through a lousy cassette adaptor or FM Modulator) and they found that Sirius had a better sound than XM. They praised Sirius' compression and streaming.

The Tech TV people found the exact opposite but I would not place ANY validity in a test that used the worse possible way of receiving satellite radio...cassette adaptor. To me, I'd rather have the units face off on two great systems hooked up properly instead of sloppily hooked to a boombox. In that test, I'm sure Sirius would have lost but I bet neither one sounded that good.

What Tech TV test is next...testing a Ferrari and a 89 Ford Festiva to see which one runs better on 87 octane gas?

ashutoshsm

I kinda agree - which is why (with my high-and-might "Yay, Xm won") I also clearly mentioned that cassette adapters were used!

In fact, I've heard the display systems at BestBuy - both hooked up through direct connections, and its really difficult to tella difference, unless the same song is played on the two systems!

Many more channels on XM sound crisper than on Sirius, to my own untrained ear, in any case. And I didn't compromise - I have a Pioneer IP-bus based head unit connected directly to the Pioneer XM receiver in the trunk. And I know that it still doesn't sound nearly as good as the CD changer hooked up the same way! So (I realise that) we're essentially compaing two decent quality (better than FM) sound sources, neither of which is CD quality anyway.

However the Ferrari vs. Festiva dig is inappropriate, because the vast majority of people WILL actually buy cassette adaptor-based satellite radio units, and this test means a lot to them. Sirius and XM have the same purpose, unlike the Ferrari and the Festiva

timadams

mdsupercooper, you sound like a sirius subscriber defending your choice. I remember Sound & Vision coming to the exact opposite conclusion you state. They said that XM had distinctly BETTER sound quality than Sirius, just like the TechTV program.

Here, I just looked it up: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=1&art- - icle_id=237&page_number=1

Here are some quotes from the article: >>Counting mutes was interesting. But there was a more pressing issue at hand - the significant difference in sound quality between the two systems. Each of us was shocked when we switched vehicles on the morning of the second day.

Within a block, we were on the walkie-talkies asking, "Can you believe this?" We'd expected the systems to sound similar, but Sirius's sound quality was clearly inferior to XM's.

All of the Sirius channels we listened to exhibited the kind of artifacts compressed-data audio codecs generate when low bit rates are used. Most noticeable was a mid- to high-frequency swirling effect that was most evident on slow to moderately fast music with a clear high end - acoustic guitars, cymbals, and strings were the most problematic.

The sound quality on XM's music channels, on the other hand, was quite good - in fact, surprisingly good considering the low bit rates that both XM and Sirius use to transmit each channel. Response at the top of the audio range was limited, as it was with Sirius. But the "swirling" effects were much more subdued here than they were with Sirius, making them much easier on the ears.

The bottom line: Sirius's sound quality was inferior to XM's - to a significant degree, we thought. But perhaps we set a high bar: one of us teaches the engineers who design audio systems; the other is a recording engineer who spends 8 hours a day critically listening to audio to ensure that the sound quality is the best it can be. Your ears might be more tolerant.<<

bottgers

The diffeence in sound quality between a CD and an XM signal fed to a head unit via a modulator is much greater than that of a CD compared to an XM signal fed directly to an XM ready head unit. Your losing your digital signal when you modulate it. If you don't think there's much of a difference in sound quality between an XM signal that's been modulated compared to a unmodulated XM signal, then you're not listening to it through a high end system. There's a very noticable difference. If someone is getting XM for the variety and convenience, then don't worry about using a modulator. If you're looking to take full advantage of the digital sound quality of XM, then by all means, spend the extra dough and get an XM ready head unit. I'm a fanatic about sound quality, so to me using a modulator with XM is like recording CD's onto 8 tracks.

ashutoshsm

My setup is : Pioneer IP-bus head unit with CASSETTE! The XM radio AND the CD Changer are trunk mounted and connected via serial IP-bus connections. The audio comes to the head unit digitally from both devices on one cable!

With this setup - I thus have digital CD as well as Xm Radio. The difference can be quite stunning! Yeah, XM is good, and I couldn't live without it - but it still ain't CD quality

And I have decent near-full-range speakers - Kenwoods (not the best, but better than 97% OEM systems!)

Now XM vs. Sirius, that's a different issue! I was comparing CD to XM as well. Which is probably the aspect of my post that confused you (if!)

bottgers

Maybe I did misunderstand your comparison. My point is there is quite a big difference in sound quality between XM connected directly to an XM ready HU as compared to the same XM connected via an FM modulator. A lot of people do this because they don't want to spend the money to buy an XM ready HU. This is fine as long as you're not expecting to get the same level of sound quality 'cause it ain't gonna happen. I also agree the sound quality of XM isn't as good as CD, but it's close, and certainly a lot closer than non satellite radio. As far as comparing XM to Sirius, that I haven't had the chance to do yet. How do they compare?

mdsupercooper

Here's what I want. I want a reviewer to take a 4.5volt Pioneer Premier and a Kenwood Excelon 4.5 volt receiver, use the same exact amps, speakers, wiring, cabling, antenna type, and then give the results of a sound test between the two.

As for me being a defensive Sirius owner...yes I have Sirius and I've heard XM both on two high dollar systems and I couldn't tell the difference in quality. Its amazing how both systems sound when they're hooked up properly.

bottgers

That's a little surprising to me. I was told by some guys at an audio shop that Sirius was superior to XM in terms of sound quality. I won't tell the whole story, but in a nut shell they basically claimed that XM rushed the introduction of their service so they could be the first to introduce satellite radio. They claimed that Sirius took their time so they could perfect their service before they offered it. Of course because their main line of audio equipment was Kenwood and they only deal with Sirius wouldn't have had anything to do with this

ashutoshsm

bottgers

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that.

stever

Fear, uncertainty and doubt.

Refers (at least here) to stuff made up by salespeople to get you to buy their product or wait until the latest and greatest comes out.

Steve, Host

mdsupercooper

My friend's shop sells both Alpine and Kenwood (as well as many other lines) and so they sell both Sirius and Kenwood. At their store on using closely matched receivers and the same JL Audio amps and MB Quart speaks, both systems sound like that CD quality that the advertising claims without all those problems I hear the uneducated talking about

oldsman01

I also use my XM unit in the house and connect it directly to my receiver via LR inputs. The sound quality is close to CD quality, but just as in the car, I can tell a difference with a CD. I will agree with the test that XM does lack when it comes to low end bass response. Otherwise, the sound quality is very good. There have been a couple of times when the sound was a bit muddy, but typically it is very clear. I cannot comment on Sirius as I have never used it and don't know anyone with it. Trying to compare the two at Best Buy is a joke as their stores are always so noisy. I might try a specialty audio shop that carries both sometime and compare. I read a review about a year ago that did indicate that Sirius uses a more sophisticated set-up that would lead you to think the sound quality was better(the review did not say it was better) but that XM's channels had a better variety of music and "deeper" playlists. This is one of the things I LOVE about XM. I am all the time hearing songs that I had totally forgotten about as they were never played on FM once they dropped off the charts. Or even better, XM plays songs that never made it on(or far) the charts.

ashutoshsm

... Also have access to public information that shows the tremendous shortcomings of XM AND Sirius through a frequency analysis. If there is little or no signal over 14KHz, as well as below 100Hz, how can you expect it to compare well to CD quality (theoretical full-range 20Hz through 20KHz)?

While I'm willing to accept that a high-end system with half-decent amps and speakers like those would bring out the best in satellite radio, it should further enhance the aural advantage of (good) CDs and seal this discussion entirely

As for listening to something with a good hookup - I haven't heard Sirius on anything high end, but have heard XM (LR line out from a Delphi unit) on an acquaintance's Marantz professional amp hooked to a combination Klipsch/Polk Audio sound system. Certainly a couple of rungs above (IMHO) a JL Audio and MB Quartz (both car specialists) system. And the difference was still rather apparent, and even exaggerated.

I'm afraid you've fallen a victim to FUD and bad-advertising as well.

Thanks for the FUD de-acronymization there, Steve_host

stever

They all sound a little clipped in the high end to me :-)

Steve, Host

timadams

I have no axe to grind one way or the other, as I don't have either system and am not contemplating signing up anytime soon. I also have not done a comparison listening test, either casual or controled. So, I would imagine just as some listeners prefer Polk Audio speakers and some prefer Definitive Technology ones, there are listeners who actually prefer one satellite radio service's sound over the other. It also could be true that Sirius has changed their compression codecs since the quoted article was written.

I know that the music data simply isn't there (because of compression) in either XM or Sirius to really rival a CD in sound quality, but that is likely pretty unimportant for car use where road and wind noise are factors. I would think that cost, availability of hardware and programming are more important than sound quality in choosing one over the other.

bottgers

Unless you've spent a lot of time, money, and effort on a high end car audio system. In these cases, the higher the fidelity, the better.

gumdoc

Can anyone recommend what I can do to make my
"satellite-ready" Bose ('03 Pathfinder OEM) radio actually receive a digital satellite signal? Nissan bailed on me on this one; said their addition of a satellite tuner had quality control problems and they discontinued their dealer-installed satellite radio option.

mdsupercooper

Nothing short of replacing the whole system with one worthy of your listening standards. Aside from that, using one of those wretched FM modulators maybe the trick. I'm certain that Nissan's XM receiver was proprietary and so finding one will be next to near impossible or cheap. For even worse quality, why not take a giant step down to a cassette adaptor and that SkyFi unit.

As far as "the uneducated among us" who take things wayyyyyyy to seriously and should seriously consider taking a break from the dungeon and dragons set and get a life.....you know who you are.....

My point remains. If you listen between both systems on a quality setup so that both systems would have to prove themselves to your ears for acceptance...I would say that there is very little difference. You can make up whatever acronym you like to describe Sirius owners but until you've taken my challenge, you're comments are baseless.

kgw707

Well, its true, I've seen the advance delivery schedule at my Nissan dealer, complete with coded entries, which have been verified from the manufacturing code book all dealers have. He's got 3 coming in end of June with the code of '
SRX' on it. This is the XM radio option (H93) A code of 'SRS' is the Sirius (H92) option, but none of those are on the way / list yet. Both are listed at $400 ($346 invoice)Geez, its about time, I'm at the very end of my current lease, so now the fun begins wheelin' and dealin'...will keep you posted!

ksoman

ok bmw offers sirius, but most people i know are talking XM... so where do i go?

I'm one of those audiophiles who has definitive speakers at home and spent months deciding on each component in my home audio system... That said, I recognize that nothing, including the fanciest car stereos sound good to me, but to my wife, anything is pleasant as far as she likes it... and this is her car. She has a longer commute and would like commercial free music and not having to deal with changing CD's and stuff..

I was initially very unsecure about where the whole satellite radio was going, but being techno-geek, i'd decided to get it even if they all went to bankruptcy, however, my travel schedule kept me distracted... so now the experiment is going to be done on wife's car, however as i said, bmw only offers sirius and most of the bmw DIY-ers seem to prefer XM... so I'm looking at positive tips on both...

Much appreciated
ksso

oldsman01

If your wife likes a wider variety of music than is typically found on FM, then she will love XM. I can't comment on Sirius as I haven't sampled it, but I would imagine it is much better than FM as well. I've had XM since November 2001 and still listen to it every bit as much as I did when I first got it. I have the first generation Sony "plug n play" unit with the FM modulator in the car and also can take the unit in my home and play it through my stereo via the line inputs. Since I am familiar with the programming and they seem to be in the better financial shape, I prefer XM. Having said that, if I were shopping for a BMW, I'd probably go with the factory Sirius system as I do prefer things integrated in my car. I'm running into a similar problem as I'm considering a Cadillac CTS and for some strange reason, Cadillac only includes XM with the $2700 DVD navigation system radio. I would love to have the XM as part of the factory system(which one can get for a mere $325 in a lowly Cavalier) but do not want to pay for a navigation system which I will seldomly use. Sound quality wise, I was very skeptical of using the FM modulator as I had used one once before with a CD changer about 5 years ago and the sound quality was so muddy I seldomly used it. The one with the XM radio is much better as the sound quality is pretty good. A local FM station with a strong signal might be a little better sounding(I'm not talking about the programming) but I was impressed with the FM modulator sound quality. Hooked up to my receiver in home, it sounds even better. While it is as clear as a CD, XM does lack some of the bass response that CDs have.

ksoman

Thanks for the input.

At home I use a 192KHZ sampling receiver, so I don't even care to cut MP3's as they just dont make it. That said and having worked on digital transmission standards in my college years ago, I know the low bit rate satellite radio with its compressed codec music is not going to be even half as good as a MP3, let alone a 96KHZ CD or a 192 KHZ digital source.... so I really don't care so much about the quality of music as much as the fact that its commercial free and there's choice and its not the trash that the local stations package to me.

Wife's BMW was picked up a month ago, so this is not really a factory installed option... niether is BMW offering this as a factory installed option at this point, merely a dealer option...

My main concern is, there are a lot of BMW DIY-ers who have installed satelite radio and they have mostly gone down the XM route, whereas the player in the car is purpotedly ready to talk directly to a compatible sirius receiver, so should i go get XM and DoItMyself, or should i pay some to the dealer to install Sirius...

thanks again
ksso

ashutoshsm

Lets not get personal, shall we? Doing so only hurts your credibility & detracts from your recommendations.

erickpl

I have a 2002 BMW 325xi and installed XM on it last year, even before BMW offered Sirius.

My wife wanted to maintain the factory head unit so we went with the FM Modulator and XM. The FMM is installed in the dash, with the hookup directly to the antenna jack. The XM antenna receiver is mounted under the passenger seat and the Alpine display is installed in the front ashtray, just in front of the stick. The antenna is the bigger Pioneer mag mount (I wanted to be able to remove it for washings and security).

My car looks totally stock inside and you can't see a thing with the ashtray cover closed. My audio shop made a frame for the display so it would mount nice (they even brushed it to make it look like the BMW black plastic around it).

My only gripe is the same one most BMW owners have - lousy speakers and needing an amp.

I have plans for MB Quarts or Kicker speakers in it, along with an amp. My only concern is the amp to factory head unit.

BTW, the setup introduced NO engine noise to the stereo system.

You can see it at:
http://community.webshots.com/user/skimblz_

-Paul

bottgers

If you're gonna spend that much on speakers, don't get the MB Quatz. Their tweeters are way too harsh. JL's XR series speakers are a much better sounding choice.

ksoman

Thanks for your input.. I'm increasingly leaning towards XM based on feedback from various places, though my gut feeling is still to go with bmw's offering of sirius. Does the magnetic antenna scratch? I've a nut when it comes to self detailing the car every weekend, plus wife's car is a convertible, so it (more than her) gets the extra love... hahahaha

I rarely do any changes to my cars, but if i'd a choice, i'd put Definitive class speakers and a 192 KHz sampling amp in the bmw, because for 600+ change, the HK system sounds worse than the worst boom box i've ever owned in my life... but i've learned not to expect anything out of car stereos as I've been spoiled by an amazing set up at home... (I spank a denon 5800 series with definitive speakers at home )

kssomaniac #0

erickpl

If I had my choice, I would probably have opted for a different antenna. The antennas now are a bit smaller and easier to deal with.

I have a few scratches from taking it off and on - the magnet is VERY strong, but nothing major. I put it on and take it off as slowly as possible, but I'm sure I could reduce scratches if I took some time to soften the bottom edges somehow.

We are looking at a new BMW 530 when they come out and are considering satellite in it too. I'd have to see how it integrates into the 530. If I didn't like it or didn't care for the stations, I'd probably aftermarket install another XM (assuming I can find a place in the new 5 to put it!)

-Paul

stever

"At the risk of greatly oversimplifying things, XM is the HBO of satellite radio and Sirius is the Showtime"

XM or Sirius? (Fortune)

Steve, Host

ashutoshsm

I only watch a bunch of HBo shows. Movies on both suck. I prefer to rent DVDs.

Of course, I can TiVo movies, but still - they don' sound/look nearly as good as a DVD.

Maybe that's why I also prefer XM!

mlm4

The FORTUNE review sounds like it's a draw between XM and Sirius. I guess it's a lot like cable TV -- you get out of it what you want. I pay for a lot of cable channels I never watch, but sometimes flipping through the channels uncovers something interesting. Same for XM. I'm not a regular listener of The Groove, but there was a great retrospective about Aretha Franklin on a few weeks ago. Good stuff. Not on radio. Steeley Dan should remake their song: "XM (No Static At All)"

oldsman01

I think XM(and Sirius's) biggest draw is the variety of programming and either total lack of or far fewer commercials than FM radio. Every time I listen to FM it seems as if there are more and more commercials. And while some stations are going to these "..." minute music blocks with no commercials, after the block is over you better start surfing or you'll be listening to commercials for an eternity.

putneyswope

I have both XM Radio and Sirius. I can't compare sound quality, because the audio system in the car which has Sirius is much better than the system in the car with XM. The programming is very similar, so any difference is a matter of personal taste. However, I found a significant difference in one aspect: the signal for both XM and Sirius will both be lost when the path to the satellite is interrupted (for example, when driving under tall trees). I have found that the Sirius signal is interrupted much more often than XM is. My understanding (which could be wrong) is that both Sirius and XM have translator facilities on the ground to boost the signal. Perhaps XM has a) better satellites or b) more translators?

ashutoshsm

1000+ vs. 300+ at last count.

Oh, I miss XM!

timadams

A new friend is a manager of a Circuit City store. I asked him about XM and Sirius. He said he can tell little if any difference in sound quality under most any listening condition with most any audio equipment. He also said he doesn't mind the short, infrequent commercials XM has. The programming is so broad and so deep with both services that it isn't much of a deciding factor, either. He has XM in his car, and explained that he'd rather pay $10 a month than $13 a month.

mlm4

XM uses two geosynchronous orbit satellites that are fixed about due south of Tuscon, Arizona and Tallahassee, Florida. Sirius uses three satellites in a "latitudinal" (polar?) figure-eight orbit. At any given time, two of the three are over North America, but because they are moving relative to the earth, the reception will vary depending on the location of the satellites and the receiver. For example, if parked under a tree the reception may be OK during part of the day and not so good at other times. The Sirius system should provide better coverage over the northern part of the country because the satellites are not as low on the horizon as XM's are, thus they feel that there is less need for terrestrial repeaters than XM. At least that's my understanding of it.

mlm4

XM expects to break even by the end of 2004, nearing 700,000 subscribers. Skeptics say XM will out-live Sirius.

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/radio7_20030807.htm

oldsman01

As more automakers incorporate XM as an available feature and as the typical programming found on FM radio continues to go down the toilet, satellite radio will grow in popularity. It's hard to believe that in November, I will have had XM radio for 2 years.

stever

Car Audio in the 21st Century

Steve, Host

psx1209

In the end it came down to this: If I were to replace the receiver in my pickup truck today, I'd probably go with Sirius. Part of the reason is that the programming more closely fits my personal tastes. I've tried both at freinds cars and sirius seems to have more of the music and talk radio (espn) that I'm looking for, as well as absolutely no commercials.

oldsman01

I'm in the process of getting ready to trade/sell my Intrigue so I went ahead and removed all evidence of XM from the car. The lesson to be learned here is to ALWAYS keep a bunch of CDs in the car with you if you don't have your XM radio. I had become so used to having XM that I rarely brought CDs and then got stuck in rush hour traffic with only FM radio to listen to. I'm not sure what was worse, the same old predictable songs that all the stations play or the endless loop of commercials. At once point, I just turned the radio off after scanning the entire FM band twice to try and find something decent to listen to.

stever

Diverse, commercial-free radio for starters:

CNET Guide to Satellite Radio

Steve, Host

lobsenza

I have a new Sirius radio I am hooking up to a home unit. I want the unit in my entertainment center which is in the center of our home, not near any exterior wall. The problem I am having is the antenna. I have several spare pieces of 75 ohm coax run to the entertainment center. Does anyone know if I can cut the antenna cable on the Sirus antenna and splice in one of my existing 75 ohm coax cables? This would allow me to get the antenna so I can easily put it outside. By the way, there is no easy way to get the Sirius antenna wire outside without an extension cable (which is not available yet) and a lot of sheetrock work.

ashutoshsm

An easy test would be to connect some spare 75Ohm cable to the END of your existing Sirius antenna cable. See if that causes any signal degradation.

If not - you *should* (don' sue me!) be fine with splicing the Sirius entenna and connecting it to the 75 Ohm antenna run already in place (did I understand that correctly?)

You could also search for more technical XM discussions on other fora, boards or clubs - someone may have tried this already. Then post the result of your research and experience here for us Edmunds readers

lobsenza

I don't see how to extend the end because of the type of connector on it.