1975-1985 Domestics---the Doomed Decade?

2

Comments

  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    I know :)

    In England, my Velox is worth about 3000-3,500 pounds, my Cresta about 4,000 pounds when done and my 59 about the same.. maybe 5,000 but thats IT.

    My XKE? More than all 3 put together!

    ANd I know about Bonnets.. I smashed the one on my old 74 once. Got hit by someone whoran a red light!. Their insurance company threw a minor fit.

    Bill
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yeah, the Brits really like these mutts, and since everything they own rusts into oblivion, finding a clean old Vauxhall might be quite a thrill for them.
  • tntitantntitan Member Posts: 306
    Just came across this discussion. No way I would scrap that Seville. Less that 2 years ago I sold a '78 Seville with 165,000 miles for $6,500 to a friend of mine. I was using it as a daily driver and knew it wasn't practical to keep doing that and did not have the space for keeping it as a toy. Mine was black on black with a paint job to kill for. I was asked to sell it everywhere I went despite the high mileage. It was difficult to get quality parts for and I was looking for a scrap heap to buy just for parts. Okay, I will come clean. I put right at $10,000 in the car and drove it for 2 years and got back $6,500. It was worth every penny and I really do miss that car. Damn it was a real looker.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    ...how did that Olds 350 hold up in the car? Did it give you any problems? That's not bad, getting 2 years out of a used car for $3500!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well, you got one hell of a price for that car. You busted the roof on high blue book! You should work for Bill down in FLA.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    What's an '85 Chevy Celebrity wagon got in terms of value? My best friend's dad still drives one (he bought that new), and it's got 155k miles. The body, surprisingly, is free of rust.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    Just my 'seat of the pants' guess, based on all the used car publications and crap I read, old A-body GMs seem to be pretty sturdy cars, but not worth much. Even in perfect shape, maybe $1500. If it's a four cylinder, likely a lot less. There aren't a lot of 1985 cars worth much money, no matter where they're made (even '85 Mercedes 500SELs, which were $50k new, are selling for about $4-6k now).
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    ...as cars age, but when those A-cars were new, (and the X-cars, as well), Consumer Reports consistently rated the 4-cyl models higher than the V-6 versions. The 4-cyl versions were naturally slower, but I think the engines in general tended to hold up a bit better.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My theory of value is that any car in the world, if it can pass inspections and is clean and decent looking, and reliable, has got to be worth $1,500 in modern day America--just as a transportation car.
  • tntitantntitan Member Posts: 306
    Andre1969 - That old Olds 350 was what made it all work out economically for me. I paid $5K for the car and spent the other $5K on the "to die for" paint job and primarily cosmetic improvements. The Olds 350 got a tune-up, belts, plugs, gaskets, etc. and was never heard from again. It sometimes knocked on regular but I just ran premium. Took several short road trips and two trips over 400 miles in a day with never a sign of a problem. There was no rust on the car and somebody in the music business here in Nashville had already put an amplifier in it so I put a major upgrade on the speakers, added a CD player and it was rock and roll.

    The guy I sold it too still loves it. The only real problem has been with starters and brakes. Had to do a major overhaul on the brakes and then they were fine. It goes through a rebuilt starter every 6-8 months but it is cheaper than a car note.

    That Olds 350 was not very powerful in this car (even though this was one of the smaller caddys) but it ran steady at 80 on the interstate and that was all I needed.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,395
    I can't believe the sacrilege I'm reading in this topic! ;-)

    First of the Seville: that Olds V-8 is bulletproof. Caddy knew what they were doing when they picked that engine. Plus, it has the only fuel injection setup ever built for an Olds small-block! Now I grant you that it is pretty primitive but still those are prized by Olds performance buffs for use in retrofitting modern FI technology. It is definitely worth something from that standpoint alone. Plus, the first-gen Seville was a very nice car overall. Bill Mitchell's "sheer" look.

    Aside from the Seville, don't trash all of these sorts of cars. I have a mint '79 Electra that I'm sure Caddy would love to be able to sell new these days to the market that they are abandoning with their new ugly generation of vehicles. A friend has an equally nice '79 Caprice that he picked up from the typical little old lady that is dead-solid reliable and quiet as a church. The fact that it looks like a New Orleans cathouse inside he is able to overlook. ;-) In any event, I expect that in 20 years or so one of these will wheel into a car show and people will be agog. It'll probably never be worth big money like a muscle car of the sixties, but they are very distinctive and unique in comparison to todays cars.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    ...but I think that "Louisiana Cathouse" look actually makes some of the old '70's and '80's cars look more upscale and better-built than some of what's out there today! For example, back then, most of the cars had thickly padded vinyl on the doors that was soft to the touch, and carpet on the lower door panels. Maybe the shag that the nicer models use dates them, but all in all, I think, makes 'em look nicer than the hard plastic they use today or, if you're lucky, the "mouse fur" they glue on!

    I always liked the Olds V-8, too. That same basic block spawned engines ranging from 260 CID on up to the 403, and they were all pretty solid. Sure, the Chevy smallblock went up to 400 CID, but they'd also grenade themselves much quicker than a 403!
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    That's a good one. I really do like the interiors of '70s Cadillacs (and even cheaper cars, too, like my '77 Caprice). Nothing wrong with crushed velour in odd colors.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    .

    These cars may serve very well and loyally as transportation, but as styling or technical displays, they are very forgettable, IMO. GM would be dead in a week producing cars like this anymore, not because they are "bad", but because they are clumsy and inefficient, and, as you say, rather tawdry in their design.

    Hard to say what someone might think of them in the year 2022. I'll guess they will look like Ramblers and STudebakers of the 50s look to us now. Rather odd things that we don't much relate to.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Why was the Olds Toronado so expensive in the mid-70s? (ex: $7500 or so in '76)
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    ...were still probably about on par with their peers in pricing, as they were in the 60's and '80's. They might've actually been more than $7500 in '76. My Mom bought a LeMans in '75 that was $5,000, and my Granddad bought a GMC 3/4 ton crew cab in '76 that was about $8,000.

    A Toro in '76 would've been every bit as luxurious (i.e.: pimpy) as an Eldorado, but had a shorter wheelbase, most of which I believe came out of the hood area so it didn't hurt passenger room. It would've also most likely had a 455 standard. For a few years, they made a model called the XS, or XSR, or something like that, that had a wraparound rear window, that was pretty cool.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Shifty,

    The attitude that seems to be prevalent in the UK is that they were unlike almost anything else produced in that era in the UK.

    Compare them to anything else that the country was making back then, with the possible exception of a Mk2 Ford Zephyr/Zodiac... they really were like space oddities on the road back then.

    So while we had fins..etc in America... they had Morris Minors and stuff like that :)

    Over here its just a weird old car.. lol.

    Besides, everyone else in Orlando has a 57 Chevy or a Camaro or Chevelle or something.

    Bill
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,395
    I would respectfully disagree with your description of them as forgettable. Especially compared to today's lookalike, generic, gray cars. Yes, no question that current cars are efficient, handle better, and technically are superior in every way. However they all look alike, seem to have no styling flair or soul, and don't do a thing for me. I would like to have a choice of colors inside, not gray or beige. I wouldn't mind a little bright trim or glitz. As for whether GM would go broke making these now, all I can say is that the SUV craze was fed in part by America's desire for a big, body-on-frame, V-8 powered vehicle that their auto divisions dropped. I agree that the market has changed but there's still a segment that these cars appeal to more than a gray Malibu with a mouse-fur interior.

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well, gee, it's not my fault ( I know you aren't really blaming me---a figure of speech only). I'm not the only one, after all, forgetting them. Most everybody else has, too. Proof? That's why they are so dirt cheap. I'm not saying you aren't allowed to just love them to death yourself. Dont wish to rain on anyone's parade! It's just the way it is. A quick look in the price guides tells all. Hardly anybody cares about these cars. I sure don't myself. That's why I think they are "doomed", because no one will bother to save them, except stacked in a pile I'm afraid.

    I don't find them worthy of restoration. I can't think of one point of distinction in either styling or engineering that differentiates them from the typical ordinary cars that should be salvaged, rather than clutter up the road. I mean, you can't save every old car, and some discrimination is mandatory. So you pick the best of the best. These cars just don't make the cut IMO.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,395
    No intention of killing the messenger. :) And I agree that a full resto of one of these is likely to be foolish. Although, I have seen some misguided folks restoring '70s Civics and Corollas so who knows for sure.


    OTOH, *preserving* a good example might end up being a decent strategy. Just to have, for example, a full-size rear-drive GM V-8. Might be a bit of a curiosity in the decades to come.

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    well, sure, no sense junking a perfectly good car.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Anybody here would agree with me that most of the domestics' interiors from the '70s were pretty stupid-looking, correct?
  • badgerpaulbadgerpaul Member Posts: 219
    The ones with the crushed velvet type of interior were the worst. They could end up looking really disgusting as they aged and picked up the usual wear and tear.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Aside from the horrible ergonomics, I remember the cheap switchgear. You got in the car and you felt like you could destroy it with your bare hands. The whole car reeked of cheap plasticky sleaze, as if Big Three Styling Depts. had been taken over by a terrorist Lounge Lizard organization.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,395
    I guess I'll have to educate all of you on this... ;-)


    It just so happens that last night I put up a couple of pics of what an interior is supposed to look like. Check this out:


    http://mywebpage.netscape.com/ab348/buick1.html


    A dash and seats the way God (and Bill Mitchell, Harley Earl and the like) intended them to be... :)

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  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I'd say the only decent American car was perhaps the '79 Oldsmobile Cutlass series.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Yeah, that's a nice Buick-y rear end. The interior does have more "personality" than you'll find in today's cars. Your photos remind me that I drove a full-size Olds of that vintage a few times when it was still fairly new. To be honest, I was absolutely amazed at how (how can I put it nicely?) discounted the interior felt and looked compared to GM iron from the '60s. But it's a real time capsule and it looks really clean.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    If anything, I'd say that a lot of it has gotten worse since then, not better. I think no better example can be found than ab348's '79 Electra. Just compare it to a brand new Park Ave. Sure, a brand new one will have leather. Doesn't mean it's NICE leather! In '79, in the Electra at least, they actually kept the cheap plastic down to a minimum. Most of the stuff on the doors was actually thickly padded, and soft to the touch. Sure, there are a few exposed screw heads here and there, and fake wood was "in" back then, but I think Buick did a good job at keeping it tasteful.

    In contrast, a modern Park Ave would have a center console that you could easily pull apart with your hands, a dash slobbered in generic plastic, thinly-padded seats with leather so cheap you'll question whether it's vinyl (what ever happened to the days when they could make vinyl so nice you'd mistake it for leather? ;-)

    My grandmother's '85 LeSabre is very similar to ab348's Electra, except that it has a digital clock in the radio, black-backed gauges, and slightly different door panels. I think any of these older cars, especially in top trim levels, make most of the newer Buicks look cheap in comparison. Of course, Buicks have improved in a lot of other ways. Better fuel economy, a much improved 231 (the '70's version was junk), air bags, abs, better and bigger tires, and all the generic stuff that's come with time. Stuff that would have been integrated into any car. Too bad Buick couldn't just take what was good about the '70's and early '80's cars and improve on it, instead of dumping them for cheaper designs.

    I guess you could say they tried that with the Roadmaster, but that car just felt too half-hearted to me. It was too lumpy and disproportionate, and a confusing mess of traditional and aerodynamic styling cues, whereas the old '70's and '80's RWD'ers at least looked like they were designed by one committee with a common goal in mind. Maybe they made the Roadmaster look clumsy on purpose, so that the Buick faithful would opt for a more expensive Park Avenue?
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    The Roadmaster reminded me a lot of the last Caprices. Way too lumpy with a lot of overhang.
  • gshumway1gshumway1 Member Posts: 18
    "60 of 80 by Mr_Shiftright HOST Mar 07, 2002 (11:53 am)
    My theory of value is that any car in the world, if it can pass inspections and is clean and decent looking, and reliable, has got to be worth $1,500 in modern day America--just as a transportation car."


    In 75 to 85 those basic "transportation car(s") cost about $300. It sure seemed easier to walk away from a $300 dollar investment when she broke.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I know GS, it costs more money to be poor now.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    I do remember my stepdad buying a beat up '69 Impala from one of my mom's co-workers for $50 in 1977 or '78. It really wasn't a bad car (it had a 350 two-barrel, I think), other than being a big, ugly beater. I think he had it for about a year, then it needed a radiator or something and he traded it in on a '78 Sunbird.

    I bought my first car, a '71 Buick Electra, in 1985 for the princely sum of $450.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Have any of you guys ever seen the old forward-control Chevy Vans from the mid-60s?
  • dpwestlakedpwestlake Member Posts: 207
    My dad had one for his heating business. 65 Chevy van, 230 cid 6, 3 on the column. A real deathtrap. the front crumple zone included your legs. It was also real tippy. Add 13" bias ply tires for the ultimate driving experience. But, hey, that was the technology of the day.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    My dad's best friend from work is still driving the '65 Chevy Van which he bought used in '68. The body is practically shot, and the original 230-ci six was replaced with a bigger 250. It has like 160k on it.
  • dpwestlakedpwestlake Member Posts: 207
    Only 160K on a 65??? He must have a 30 yard commute to work.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Worst domestic cars of the '70s: Vega/Astre and its derivatives- Starfire, Monza, etc.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    ...seemed to put less effort into its smaller cars back then, a trait that unfortunately carries over today. The problem is that small cars were viewed as being popular only in times of recession or fuel crisis, and there was some truth to that. For the most part, as soon as the economy turned around or the fuel started flowing again, people would abandon their econo-boxes for bigger cars.

    The same holds true, to an extent, even today. While we don't have that many big cars anymore (even the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car are only the size of the typical '73-78 era intermediate), people seem to have given up cars in general for trucks and SUVs, many of which actually outweigh and outguzzle some of the biggest cars of the '70's!
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,395
    You're right, but you didn't mention something that was true then which still holds true today in a somewhat different way.

    Back then Detroit didn't like small cars because their profit margin was lower. The mantra was "small cars mean small profits". So they built them grudgingly in the hope that the buyer could be moved up to a more profitable bigger car.

    Today the same holds true but the distinction is (for the most part) cars versus trucks. Detroit would like to sell you a SUV or luxo-pickup, which have a huge profit margin, instead of Malibus or Impalas.

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  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    I tried to buy a Chevy Nova in 85 or so... Figured that I would be able to get a Toyota for Chevy prices, since Chevy's reputation was so bad in those days, and most people didn't know that Novas were actually Toyotas wearing bowties.

    I went to the Chevy dealer, and literally couldn't get the salesman to show me one... he finally said, "Son, there ain't no room to move on the price on them small cars"

    I left..
  • ballparkballpark Member Posts: 41
    These cars are still attractive today. I owned a new 78 Formula back then,. 305 V-8.
    Nice clean simple design.

    The Mustang 11 coupes were nice. Didn't really care for the hatch models though. I think the coupes would make nice resto-rods today. Drop in a hot 5-liter and take the rice rocket crowd to "school". I'm afraid these babies are being lost to the crusher nowadays. Don't see very many considering how many were sold.

    Can't think of anything else from this era that I would care to salvage.
  • dgraves1dgraves1 Member Posts: 414
    balpark - I think you are the first person I have ever heard say anything remotely positive about a Mustang II. The only fondness I have for those cars has to do with seeing Farrah Fawcett in one.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,395
    Funny thing: to this day I have clear memories of a '75 Firebird that was on a dealer lot here back then when it was brand new. The lot was a couple of blocks from my house and I used to go by there at least once a day. This was "overflow" storage for cars they couldn't keep at the showroom site.

    There was a '75 Firebird there for months. Light green metallic, white vinyl buckets, 350, automatic, rally wheels, rally stripe. I *loved* that car. I'd stop by and just look through the windows at the interior of it and drool. I was 19 at the time and would have killed for a car like that. I'd have a hard time passing it up if it suddenly appeared today.

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  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Or what about the best-selling car of 1977 and '78, the Chevy Caprice/Impala? I still see a couple of these still running around, but they're almost always very tired-looking.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    ...but I remember going with my grandparents to the Chevy dealership when they bought their '85 Silverado, brand new. I was 15 at the time. There was a brand new Impala, white with a dark blue cloth interior, that I fell in love with. It was just an ordinary 4-door sedan, but it just had a nice clean look about it, and I always liked the Impala's grille better than the Caprice's back then. I remember it was a 305-4bbl, 4-speed automatic, and it had power door locks but crank windows. I think it stickered for something like $14-15K.
  • rea98drea98d Member Posts: 982
    Weren't the '77-'78 Impalas/Caprices the same body style as the 80's cars? (Right up until they went with the "bathtub" design?" If so, there's still plenty of those cars around, so finding parts shouldn't be that hard.

    As far as a Firebird from that era, I wonder how much HP those 305's and 350's were really putting out, being right in the worst of the smog crunch. Low factory HP ratings are probably what keeps resale on those cars down. I wonder how much that '75 Firebird would be worth if that 350 put out, say, 300-400 horsepower?
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    So you're not too fond of the bathtub/beached whale design of the Caprice, I take it?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    ...the typical 305 was probably good for around 135-145 hp with a 2-bbl, and 150-155 with a 4-bbl. Chevy's 350 was around 170 hp in the family-type cars, but I think may have been boosted to around 185 for the Camaro.

    As for the GM B-body, the basic design ran from '77-90, until it was replaced by the "bathtub" design in '91. Even the bathtub style used the same frame...the fatter body just hung over the frame rails more than it did with the more chiseled '77-90. This is probably more info than most people would want to know on the subject, but the boxy Caprice went through three minor transitions from that '77-90 timeframe. The first, '77-79 models were a bit more traditional Detroit, where they'd change the grilles, taillights, and other trim every year, and had a fairly broad choice of engines with the 250-inline 6 and 305 and 350 V-8's. The coupe versions these years had a cool rear window that kind of wrapped around., and the rear windows and rear decks on all of them were more sloped-off and less formal than later models.

    In 1980, they gave the lineup a slightly more aerodynamic facelift, and were able to shed another 100-200 lb off of the cars. The 250 was replaced by a 229 V-6, and the 350 was dropped, leaving the 305 as the biggest engine. 1980 was also the year that the focus at Chevrolet shifted from big cars to smaller models. Suddenly, with another gas crisis looming, even these downsized Impalas and Caprices, along with the Malibus and Monte Carlos, were just too big. The lineup ran almost unchanged from '80-85, with only a grille change in '81. Over the years, the Impala became more of a fleet favorite, while families gravitated more toward the more luxurious Caprice. Also in '85, the 229 was replaced by the 262, a sawed-off 350 with TBI and 130 hp. Sounds sad today, but back then, Ford's 302 and Oldsmobiles' 307 were only putting out 140 hp in the big cars, although those engines had a lot more torque.

    For '86, the Impala nameplate was dropped. Also this year, the big Delta and LeSabre were downsized, so the Caprice started to run the gamut from cheap fleet car to near-luxury. They also gave it a minor face- and rear-end lift, which made it look a bit more aerodynamic (but probably wasn't). It was given flush-mounted headlights for '87, and then ran almost unchanged until the bathtub re-do for '91.

    While it's doubtful that any of them will ever be lusted after, I think the '77-79's are the best. Since they changed them up every year, each one just seemed to have a bit more personality. Also the coupes back then looked downright sporty compared to the formal, personal-luxury look of the '81-87 coupe (it was retired for '88). Then, there was the 350 V-8. While the 305 was up to 170 hp by around 1987, I'm sure the 350 still would've had more torque, so it would've been better off-the-line. Those '77-79's just seemed a bit better put-together, as well. Sometimes, GM has a bad habit of cutting corners on their cars after they've been in production for too long. They might have just gone too far in '80 with weight reduction. The cloths and vinyls they used in those earlier models just seemed a bit higher-grade, as well. These cars were Chevy's biggest seller in '77-79, so it makes sense to me that they'd put more effort into them than in later years, when they just had a built-in audience that would buy them no matter how they were put together.

    Okay, I'm sure that's more thought than anybody's put into the '77-90 B-body in awhile ;-)
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    If one were to buy a '96 Caprice or Roadmaster, he or she would be buying what is essentially a glorified version of the original 1977 car, am I correct?
  • ballparkballpark Member Posts: 41
    >>I think you are the first person I have ever heard say anything remotely positive about a Mustang II<<

    Yes, I know. So many were sold yet they are looked upon with ambivalence, by Mustangers at that.

    I may yet "hot-rod" one though.
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