Honda Element

ropedart

Spare tire is under cargo panel in floor. I think its a donut. Check CRV circular wet bin in its floor. It looks it could have been a donut well to me. Element proto had a stereo amp put there for fun. TOV had some pictures. Runflats anyone??

nitschke

Thanks ropedart. Any comments regarding mileage between the two wheel drive w/ std trans. and the four wheel w/ same?

ropedart

My understanding is that the ATs are quite light and efficient now. There is a slight difference. Also mileage is only estimated at this time. Some Honda guy might elaborate.

tpat3

I do a little business with Honda. Guy I spoke to implied it will not come with Navi as an option. He also seemed to think it was really funny that I (decidedly not the target) am interested in the Element.

Also, still trying to figure out how cargo room behind the back seat compares with CR-V. I've seen the numbers -- something like 35 cu. ft. for CR-V v. 27 for Element) -- but wonder if I'm reading it right. Anyone know? Thanks.

ateixeira

RT4WD is not enabled unless there is slip. The system adds some weight to the vehicle, but since the rear axle isn't used most of the time, mileage is similar. The rear axle isn't creating extra drag.

The trade-off is that it might still have torque steer, like the CR-V does.

-juice

varmint

tpat3 - You are correct. The Element has less space behind the rear seat. Take a look at how far back the seat is positioned to see why.

moonkat

I was researching benchmark vehicles to get a feel for size of vehicle...all the new hi-res photos make it more & more appealing...and came across a surprising comparable vehicle.

The Jeep Cherokee, circa 99 is very close in wheelbase, length and width to Element:

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/jeep/cherokee/4drlimited4wdwagon/specs.html?id=lin0066

ateixeira

Yeah, but it's much, much shorter. The Element is also a very different vehicle.

-juice

moonkat

juice:

Actually the lengths of Element & Cherokee are almost the same. Surprised me which is why I posted....166.5 vs 167.5. Element is wider by 2", and taller by 10". Standing next to or seeing a Cherokee, I get a feel for the size of the .... vehicle.

Element -
EXTERIOR MEASUREMENTS (from College Hills Honda site)
Length (in.) 166.5
Wheelbase (in.) 101.4
Height (in.) 74.0
Width (in.) 71.5
Track (in., front/rear) 62.1 / 62.3
Ground Clearance (in.) 6.9

Cherokee - Exterior: (from #1007 link)
Length: 167.5 in.
Width: 69.4 in.
Height: 64 in.
Weight: 3305 lbs.
Wheel Base: 101.4 in.
Ground Clearance: 8.1 in.

ateixeira

I know I said shorter, but I meant in terms of height. The Cherokee was very squat, the Element is very tall.

Your data shows this - the Element is nearly a foot taller!

-juice

moonkat

I'm bummed (can you tell I'm not in the target demographics ?)......

C&D says 0-60 in 9.5 sec for 5spd FWD:
"Element doesn't move out with much authority" but "moves with unexpected grace.." and "Honda has shortened gearing compared with CR-V....thus, the Element is quicker than most garbage trucks, and skyscrapers..." !-(

robertsmx

9.6s (0-60) is what they got from Focus SE (5-sp manual) in their latest comparo. So, if people can get around town in Focus, I don't see it being a problem with Element.

But, Element's heft calls for a small V6 (2.5-3.0 liter), and that could actually help relax the gearing and improve/retain the fuel economy, and certainly improve the acceleration and the price tag.

ropedart

Everyone is skirting around the speed issue. This is no Nissan 350Z. Element speed is the last thing the publications want to talk about. Its just not going to be its strength. IMO the power issue will be handled with an Acura version to politically avoid upsetting CRV customers. I already see a problem with people not wanting to pay more than a CRV base model for an Element. You get more speed, mileage and an extra passenger.

ropedart

http://www.globalautonet.com/pages/consumerfeature/100902.html

Snippets:

"So hideous, perhaps, that its cool"

"While four-wheel-drive Elements swim in predictable sport-ute dullness, front-wheel-drive machines, with manual transmissions, are a absolute scream to drive. They’re responsive, sporty, light, and astonishingly stable."

chris777

I actually thought the review was pretty positive especially when it said it might suit taste better than the cr-v
(even more so when compared to their outright bashing the civic in their comparison test)

I will be glad when Dec 16 rolls around so I can decide if this thing will be worth the wait. or if I'm just saving up for a different vehicle

oh btw it looks like their will be a total of 12 variants available once all versions are released in may 03

with dx, ex, auto, 5spd, 2wd,4wd, and srs I'm guessing college hills has it listed as ex s so I assume it's srs

ateixeira

Hang on a second, wasn't C&D's 0-60 time an estimate? It doesn't mean very much, not yet at least.

And under 10s is hardly slow. Slow cars are in the 12s range.

I bet the Element keeps up with a Civic LX, probably even beats it.

-juice

varmint

"...but why do carmakers assume that most twenty-somethings want to haul a kayak wherever they go?"

Remarks like this crack me up. They assume that because it's marketed toward Gen Y, it is the only car that Honda offers those buyers. It plays along the same lines of the people who think that Gen Y buyers only want sport coupes. Honda already sells the RSX and Civic Si. The Element is for the other Gen Y buyers.

ateixeira

RSX may be a little pricey for most of the Gen Yers I konw. That may be the car they aspire to, but I bet most buy Civic LXs.

-juice

moonkat

appreciate encouragement:

I'm acceleration focused having felt the 03 Accord V6 rush, but still a functionalist at heart. Want something quicker, more responsive, fuel efficient than our 99 Ody EX (9.9 sec 0-60, CU), but not up to getting a second Pilot (9.4 CU, 8.1 C&D). Accord is nice but has limited utility. I was surprised at the stares I got road testing a Graphite Pearl EX V6 with all the protective wrap.

Can't even get a test drive in a CRV for lack of inventory. This would provide a benchmark for evaluation of ride, handling, acceleration, NVH ...Interestingly, CU clocks CRV at 9.6 to Pilot 9.4!!! CU would probably clock Element at 12 sec.

So two out of three, handling & utility, keep me interested in an EX 5spd. Just hope they're not too noisy.

ateixeira

CR-V 5 speeds are peppy. Have you driven one?

Or wait for the Forester turbo. That'll blow the segment away.

-juice

moonkat

I'd love to test drive one; just aren't any at my friendly local dealer. From what Varmint says, the CRV 5spd is fast as a Pilot (8.1), and I love the dash mounted shifter.

Sat in a Civic Si 5spd (dash mounted shifter) and the shifter is real nice. The 4 cyl iVtec motor was also very appealing in an Accord EX I test drove, but that had the 5 spd auto in a lighter vehicle. Still looks to be an excellent motor as it should be for the motor on which Accord reputation will be made. Some are getting 40 plus mpg on other topics! Acceleration is good, but good fuel economy is getting more important.

varmint

The 5 speed CR-V has been clocked at 8.1 seconds (motor trend), but the average for that vehicle is more like 8.4 seconds. The actual scores are 8.1, 8.4, 8.5, and 8.8 from various magazines. The Pilot has been ranked at 8.1 seconds fairly consistently. I'd give the edge to the Pilot.

I expect that the Element will launch reasonably well (despite its bulk), but will not move from 40-60 mph with the same authority. It's too boxy. MT will probably get a 5 speed 2WD under 9 seconds, but most scores should be between 9-10 seconds.

ateixeira

A 4 cylinder Accord would probably be a better fuel miser (more aerodynamic), and with a relatively big gas tank the range would be pretty incredible.

C&D clocked the V6 auto at 7.0s, but I bet the 4 cylinder/5 speed ain't too far behind, maybe 8s or so.

Too bad they don't sell an Accord wagon here, eh?

-juice

moonkat

Wagon would be good.
Agree with the iVtec 4 cyl performance.
I still contend that MW test of 03 Accord (video showed Graphite Pearl LX as I recall) of 8.0 sec was in fact the iVtec 4 cyl! Neither credits nor verbal identified which engine was being tested.

If so, that would make the 03 i4 as fast as the 02 V6, but with better gas mileage .....interesting.

ateixeira

That's a peppy little 4 banger. Actually, 2.4l is not so little. Mazda had a 1.8l V6 in the MX3, now those are some tiny cylinders!

-juice

ropedart

Whatever happens with the Element the SUV market will be changed. It seems to hit onto something people want. A covered pickup. Instead of carpeted floors people want a wipe clean floor. The CRV and Pilot offer rubber floor mats as options. Now you can ask why the floors weren't rubber in the first place. They also want stuff they just bought to be protected from the elements or thieves. I just cannot believe that the Subaru Baja because of its open bed must obey truck speed limits. Did Honda know that? So Honda is in no hurry to offer a pickup when a covered truck does things better.

paisan

Maybe in canada the Baja has to follow truck speed limits. Things are weird up North!

-mike

ateixeira

Outback has a rubber cargo liner standard, so does Forester. They are extremely useful.

You can't quite hose out the interior, but you can remove the liner and hose it out, which I do every time I wash the car.

MacNeil makes a fortune selling those babies, they make custom fit ones for just about every SUV on the market. I think they're around $80 a pop, still totally worth it.

Can you truly hose-out the Element's interior, or are you just supposed to wipe it down with a wet rag? The Matrix and Vibe are set up that way, with plastic surfaces in the cargo bay.

-juice

daveghh

Ateixeria,

They originally lcained that you can hose it down, I haven't heard anything for a while.

ateixeira

I know Jeep Wranglers have actual drain holes with grommets to plug them up.

But the carpeting pretty much gets ruined. I'd be curious to see how Honda does it.

-juice

daveghh

Juice,

They may slope the floor to create drainage. I wouldn't want holes in the floor becasue what gets in can get out.

ateixeira

That's what the grommet is for.

You may already have one and not know about it. A hole may already exist for tow hitch wiring. Mine was under the spare tire, plugged with a rubber grommet.

When I bought the hitch kit, it came with the wiring and harness, and a new grommet that fit perfectly in its place. It's a pretty tight seal. Guess I could have water in the spare tire well and drain it by removing it.

But my cargo area is carpeted and would smell musty if it got wet, hence the rubber liner.

-juice

paisan

Rip out your carpet, and put Herculiner in your vehicle That's what Tree Killa did with his montero after he made a Mistubishi Margahrita @ the 1st Annual 48hrs of Tri-state.

-mike

varmint

I recall one article saying that you aren't really supposed to hose the interior.

hose + spray + electronics = bad

It's just supposed to be easy to clean. More like a "mop-proof" interior.

ateixeira

Swiffer wet? ;-)

paisan: Doug needs more than just a hose to clean that monster! In fact his next ride should be amphibious.

-juice

Kirstie_H

Don't forget to join us for tonight's open, member-to-member chat, 5-6pm PT/8-9pm ET.

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

Our loose topic for tonight is most anticipated 2003 models. Hope to see you there!

kirstie_h

Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

varmint

Put a wet dog in the back and drive through the twisties.

ateixeira

It's gotta be a fluffy puppy, I think your greyhounds (and my trusty dusty mutt) don't have enough fur for that. :-)

Check the CR-V vs. Forester topic - I just posted a message about a rather huge Greyhound reunion in Dewey that I sort of checked out.

-juice

inmyelement

Waiting patiently for Dec. to arrive! The element has a perfect mix of features for me and the dog! Hey- I've got a Big greyhound too! i think he'll like the element (ie. flat floor, low jump in height, he'll even have his own sun roof !) Looking forward to seeing one Boston auto show (Nov.2-10) Hopefully. I think the element will be a hit, why do people think its ugly? the design is a great, the square shape w/ one corner cut off is repeated all over the vehicle. I guess most people dont see those sort of thing(I work in design field) Love it -gotta have it! in Glapagos green.

ateixeira

The show car was at the NY show, where I first saw one in person. I bet you'll see at least that, if not a production model, in Boston.

I liked the show car's blue cladding, it got a bit watered down for production. You definitely notice it, it has lots of presence. It's incredibly tall looking, too.

-juice

varmint

Inmyelement - So you're going to have a greyhound bus! I have two greythounds and have pretty much outgrown my CR-V. I was seriously considering the Element until I found out it has less room behind the rear seat than the CR-V. Bummer. With only one hound, you should be fine. Now I'm dreaming of a Pilot, Highlander, or something similar.

ateixeira

Darn, I was just going to tell you I saw a WRX wagon for $22.1k, a steal. Guess that's too small, then?

Pilots are nice. Torquey engine, smooth tranny. I found some quality glitches you may want to check on your sample before you buy - the jack cover in the cargo area was loose on both the ones I saw, and the passenger side front wiper was misaligned on one of them. Maybe Honda is rushing them out, that dealer had a wait list for them.

Highlander is nice, too, just a little pricey once well equipped, especially for a 5 seater. But they'll probably be willing to deal.

Murano looks interesting, if you like the styling. It'll be a performer.

Or a VW Touareg, though prices will be more in MDX range.

-juice

diploid

Or perhaps Honda is getting too big to have the high level of quality control it once did.

inmyelement

well, i don't think i'll ever have the rear seats in..only when i have to haul people! Varmint- how is your CRV doing? Iask because i know nothing about honda and engines... never thought I'd be interested in one! I'd love to get another grey- hum...

varmint

Diploid - That's possible, but I think Toyota would make a good case for "bigger and still better".

Inmyelement - My CR-V is a '99 model. I've got 68K on it with no problems. I average 25mpg with a daily commute that is a 60/40 split in favor of highway driving. I live in MA, but I take frequent trips up to NH, VT, and ME. In fact, I'm joining six other CR-Vers in western MA for a leaf-peeping tour tomorrow.

I bought the CR-V when I just had the one hound. It was perfect as I could take the dog and several passengers at once. When we added the second pup, we outgrew the space. Now it's passengers or puppies, not both. Not the best for when we go hiking or skiing.

ateixeira

Even after the sludge debacle?

I think Toyota has suffered some growing pains. They've sort of taken over for Chrysler at the 3rd biggest brand in the "Big 3".

-juice

varmint

I don't think that the "sludge debacle" or Honda's "transmission catastrophe" are really anything new. They've always had these kinds of problems. We just didn't know about them.

inmyelement

for the info. Guess honda live up to their reputation. I'm gonna just wait patiently until Dec 16. Enjoy the dying leaves!

steve_on

Try this one on.

How about a "Element Taxi"?

Boxy, easy to get into and out of, low cost to operate, ugly, sounds like the modern day Checker cab.

robertsmx

I missed MotorWeek's coverage of Element yesterday. Hope to catch it some other time.

The red Element was looking good.