I think everyone on this board, as well as the Detroit News reviewers know that the Element is not targeted to families.
But that's not going to stop families from buying this SUV and complaining about the seat belts or whatever. I would not be surprised if families represent the majority of the buyers for the Element, because for them the pros of the Element might outweigh the cons.
The fact that SUVs are targeted at active males with outdoor jobs doesn't stop them from being driven by mothers to the gocery store.
My brother-in-law (father of one, another on the way) is cross-shopping this vehicle. He already has a Caravan.
That said, I don't think the door issue is a deal breaker. Hence my statement, "I just noticed a small problem for the first time." Having to open the rear door is no biggie. Having to open the rear door and unbelt is one step too many.
hey juice ... no I haven't designed any car interiors...hum, maybe I should ! I own a small design firm, I do homes/some commercial.(nice little plug!) thanks for asking...It looks like Honda is missing its target audience so far. Going to the auto show in Boston tomorrow ! Hopefully to see the E. I'll let everybody know the details and post pics! :-)
doesn't stop them from being driven by mothers to the gocery store
So true, my wife just loved the Expedition we test drove. I'd sooner buy an MPV for half the price. She loved the "image", the intoxicating feeling of power from behind the wheel, and ... the middle 2nd row seat that slid forward for easy access to our infant!
She also notice manicure-friendly door handles (I'm serious), power adjustable pedals that allowed room for her high heels (I'm still being serious), and the reverse parking sensor that beeped so that she could park it. Never mind that it's way too wide for our car port (unless we use it for one vehicle instead of two).
The smooth IRS helped a lot, too. And she loved that the center console was big enough for her purse, something the salesman said was intentional.
The next generation of buyers will avoid SUVs because that is what their parents drove. But yeah, parents are the ones buying these things, and manufacturers are catering to them. You really think off-road active lifestyle outdoor mountain climbers care about power foot pedals?
Ric: I mis-read your profile, my bad. You are an interior designer, and own those cars. Duh.
Enjoy the show. Hopefully you can sit in it. We were only able to see it up on a stand. Even then it was the concept, with the blue cladding, not a production model.
Glancing at the specs, one thing stands out: 30mm front sway bar, 21mm rear! Yowsah! That is thick for a stock set! I bet the thing corners pretty flat.
6.9" of ground clearance surprises me a bit. It looked like more.
Length is 169.3 instead of previously reported 166.4; weight is about 20 lbs lighter each model; and mpg for EX Auto (AWD) is 22/26 (21/24) instead of 21/25 (20/24) as reported in early specs (College Hills Honda site).
Also most complete set of Element colors. Subtle enhancements of fender colorations to complement paint colors make each of the colors look good.
Hi everyone! Just to let you know, I'm 44 years old, my husband is 48 and we LOVE the Element. As soon as it hits the showroom floor we'll be there to take a serious look. I currently drive an Expedition and have been looking for something that more suits my lifestyle. We have 3 Labrador Retrievers and are weekend warriors - mountain biking, camping and kayaking. Thanks HONDA!
They have a DX in b.blue on the floor! I sat in every seat, opened everything, 'played' for what seemed like an hour. It fantastic. It's smaller then I thought. Rear seats work well. Almost slipped gettin' out of the rear seats...damn heels! ;-) Ric
inmyelement- thecarconnection.com stated that the backseats were lower than they had expected it to be, while other sources say that the backseat is high and upright like a chair. What's your opinion on that? Looking at the pics, it does appear that the seats are low, or at least typical of a car (i.e. legs splayed in front).
It's small - but did it feel small? Did the doors feel heavy? Even though it's mean for only 4 passengers, do you feel that 3 can sit in the back in a pinch?
I missed the airing so I'll have to catch the replay later this week but i found the transcript
acceleration
". Our front-drive EX tester briskly moved to 60 in 8.1 seconds, and on through the quarter mile trap in 16.2 seconds at 86 mph The engine revs quickly, and our drivers were impressed with the strong torque throughout the rev band. Our Element's 5-speed manual also received rave reviews for its preciseness and just- right feel. "
braking
"Element's 4-wheel drive disc braking system is equally up to the task of stopping. With large 11 inch rotors and the EX's standard ABS and Electronic Brake Distribution, we averaged stops from 60 in a good 126 feet. "
something else interesting
"The good news is that prices will start around $16,000 for a front-drive DX, and top out at under $23,000 for a well optioned 4-wheel drive EX"
$23000?????
someone off of vtec.net spotted it
and on a side note inyelement have you also sat in the crv for comparison to the element?
i had a few questions if you noticed
1) visibility front and rear how did it compare to the crv better or worse? were the increased pillars for the suicide blocking much?
2) comfort did the driving position feel comfortable or cramped. I heard a few complain that there wasn't enough room up front 3) the spare tire cover did it seem sturdy enough to support the weight of most people?
oh yeah has anyone else notice their are over 1100 post now
OK sure I can give yo my thought... diploid- small, yes, its just its got more space vertically, looking from rear end of E it looks small. However, it felt huge inside lots of space. Doors are VERY solid, cargo doors work great! I have no worries about safety or strenght of doors. Inside he seats in rear are higher then front, but so is the floor, lots of rear leg room but knees are a little high.Sure i guess u could put someone in the middle, but it is plastic, there are pull loops that come up from the top of the plastic, cup holders aren't really obtrucive so I'd say yes as long as it wasn't gonna be me stuck there! Chris777- thanks for the info from show! Yes i have test driven a '02 CR-V. I must say there is a lot more room in the E then CRV, just on design alone, its just THAT different, it really is hard to compare the E to anything!. add in all that vertical space.My partner is 6'5" ,looked like a kid seating in the drivers seat, had NO problem what-so-ever with visiblity. Drivers seat is comfy, you 'feel' up high,vertical. Passenger side is where the problem is...NO SPACE its tight, I felt its just too close to the dash, 'the giant' didn't fit . The tire cover floor had a problem on one of its corners I think its just that its gottin' beat up from all the people, but it was solid , but it did give a little. The tail gate is great perfect seating and excellent access. The E and CR-V are really two totally different vehicles, you'll see!
Very positive review. Only negative was that Honda missed target demographics. Great video of Element in "low-speed slalom"; quite flat and quick. Convincing interior and exterior details, fit and finish.
varmint: Acceleration numbers (8.1 sec 0-60, 03 EX 5spd 2wd, 3400lbs) were surprisingly quicker than comparable CRV (8.4 sec 0-60, 02 LX 5spd 2wd,3258lbs) with same motor/hp!?
Inmyelement: Great review....going from Expedition to Element!???? I sympathize with the cross shopping; I'm looking at vehicles from 03 Accord to Element to another Pilot.
chris777: So, is this getting interesting for gen y ? What's up with the $23K....dealer mark-ups already?!
When they said the Element was shorter than the CR-V by quite a large number, I suspected that they were including the CR-V's rear mounted spare when they measured it lengthwise.
Even if it's the last gen CR-V, the side-by-side comparison is visually valid.
Anyone know when the E's will be in the show rooms? I'm wondering about availability- will I have to order one (whatever that means)? I haven't bought a car from a dealer before, how much might they come down from sticker (or up from invoice)? Any purchasing choices besides via the conventional dealer method? What sorts of add-on costs are expected, and which are just to screw the ignorant? If I find a better deal for adding the tow package, should I go for it- or am I protected by warranty when the dealer installs?
Too bad you can't get the skylight without 4WD, and that the 5 speed 4WDs don't come out until mid '03. Lack of cruise option for DX takes that right out of the picture for me. What do you think about side air bags- cost, benefit?
Just saw the Element this weekend at the auto show and now I want one. It looked cool from the Edmunds previews and is even better in person. It looks like it might be a hit because the only car I saw that had as many people crawling all over it was the VW bus. It is only me, my husband and our little dog who has an unfortunate tendency to get car sick so washable seats would be great.
Moonkat - Yes, those numbers are fairly speedy. Faster than I would have guessed. But, I wouldn't get too excited by a .3 second difference. MT got a CR-V to 60mph in 8.1 seconds. Also, I thought C&D using an RT4WD model for the CR-V. Honda doesn't make a CR-V with 2wd and the 5 speed. ;-)
ginap- were you in my pics of the E at the Boston show? There on HondaElement.org -I relate with the dog, my greyhound gone own the element, wish he'd clean it too! varmint- you gonna go to the show?
Hi, ya'll. I just totalled my 2001 Honda Civic sliding through some snow and ice, but I got out without a scratch. (I looooved that car!) Now, I'm looking for something in a 4wd, and Element or a CRV is high on my list. My question is, what are the risks in buying a brand spanking new model the first year out?
Keep in mind that -- without snow tires -- even an AWD/4WD vehicle will be pretty much at the same risk for sliding on ice and snow that your '01 Civic was.
You'll always get better snow/ice traction on a 2WD vehicle with 4 snows than you will in a AWD/4WD on all-seasons.
Don't think I'm biased against AWD -- I like it enough to own a Subaru 2.5RS. But, when the snow flies, I slap on the Blizzaks.
No I'm not in those pics. On the legroom issue the Element didn't seem any worse than my Forester which supposedly has 41 inches of legroom. I think how the seat is placed has more effect than anything. I do like all the plastic outside but that's because I am lazy and it's easy to take care of. Plus since I have a Forester looks are obviously not much of a priority when buying.
I just got my copy of the December Motor Trend. In the SUV of the Year article, they mention the Element about a dozen times. It had something unique to offer (good or bad) in most every category. I was kind of amused to see it take the spotlight from the Pilot and other popular vehicles.
Moonkat - I think the Element is offered with a 5 speed 2WD to lower the base cost and offer a stripped model for the Gen Y folks they are targeting. The fact that CR-Vs are built on different continents may be a factor as well.
Inmyelement - Nope. I won't make it. I recently bought a new house and I'm still busy getting settled in. I keep finding little things that need to be fixed or improved. Plus I need to build some new furniture.
How about going UP a slippery hill? How about when starting out from a dead stop? How about negotiating a corner?
While I agree that DEEP SNOW probably NECESSITATES snow tires, many snow/ice situations may be handled quite well by good all-seasons roundy-rounds. When the road conditions match the rink used in the tire ads, you need everything you can get to help!
Granted the Blizzaks are a great winter choice, with their special compound, tread design, and siping. I suspect the Blizzaks will REDUCE at least 75% of winter driving "unpleasantness", but AWD does have its place...
Saw the Element during Motor Trend TV on Speedvision last night. Some pretty cool shots of the Element running hard through the offroad course. It seemed fairly competent. No embarassing moments like the crazy wheel hop on Motorweek's 0-60 test. I think they said it was "fun". They mostly talked about the winner, the Volvo XC90-something. It was cool, with two leather third-row bucket seats that came out of the floor. Clever Swedes. Twice the price of the Element though. (You can check speedvision's website for rerun times.)
Rerenov8r - Actually, I would expect that snow tires are best for hard packed snow and ice. Under those conditions, the soft compounds can do their job. When driving in deep snow, the treads are more likely to get gummed up with the soft fluffy stuff. That negates some of their effectiveness.
Anyway, I don't think he meant that snow tires are better. Just that snow tires can be a very effective alternative.
I'm a bit surprised by the Element's apparent off-road ability. I'd like to see a comparison with other vehicles in it's "class". I was expecting it to bottom out and get bamboozled by lack of traction in a frame twister situation. It lacks ground clearance and the tighter suspension can't have too much travel.
My father and I put this problem to the test last winter because we were trying to justify buying Blizzacks for an AWD CRV.
Test vehicles... 1) SAAB 95, Front wheel drive, set of Blizzacks 2) 2002 CRV, All Wheel Drive, Brand new all season tires
* The SAAB clearly outperformed the CRV when it came to stopping and cornering. Even through deep snow up to its frame! * The SAAB also outperformed the CRV from a stop.
I was sold without hesitation. The CRV needed a set of winter tires. Put them on, it outperformed the SAAB in every category. Since then I have taken my CRV into my friends back yard and drove around with the snow above the frame!
I took a good look at the Element at the auto show in Boston yesterday afternoon. I really wanted to like this car, but after crawling all over it, no way will I buy it. This was a manual DX, by the way.
My main issues are it is too small and just seems very cheaply made, at least the interior.
Dash, guages, seats, bins, various covers and the lid for the spare tire are really flimsy. I know cars used at shows take a beating, but the ring that holds the shifter apron was broken, the coin bin came off in my hand when I opened it and the cowling for the rear seat hinge mechanism was broken and wouldn't close. There is a lot of storage, but the door bins, too, are made of thin plastic and don't seem very durable. The spare tire lid is also pretty flexible and I'd be afraid to put much weight on it.
The front seats are fairly comfortable with plenty of travel and support. I'm about 6' 1" and had lots of leg room and could wear a stovepipe hat without hitting the headliner. The rear seats are another story entirely. The seat bottoms are really short and offer zero thigh support. I would not want to spend a lot of time back there even though there is good leg and shoulder room. Accessing the rear seat is really easy with both doors open.
My biggest beef is with cargo space. With the rear seats in place, there is not much room for even luggage, never mind all the outdoor gear that Honda marketers seem to think young actives will haul in this thing. This whole "room for all your friends and all their stuff" theme is a load of crap. This car ain't built for road trips to bike, surf, snowboard , etc. unless you go by your self or maybe with one other person. I just don't see the utility in this car unless you take the rear seats out entirely.
The rear cargo hatch arrangement is pretty cool, but it took a couple of us a while to actually open it. Seems the alignment was out of whack or something and the door had gotten jammed. Again, maybe early production/car show abuse issues, but makes me concerned about the quality of this rig.
Just so this won't be a complete rant there are some really neat points. Nice positioning for the driver. Everything seems logically placed and I really like the location of the shifter. There are lots of places to put stuff like CDs, change, bags, purses, etc. The floor is really tough and would take some abuse and would be easy to clean. All the reviews say it drives great and it probably does. It's probably mechanically fine and will give good service like all Hondas.
Seems to me Honda really shaved costs by cheaping out on alot of materials. If you buy an element, pick up lots of superglue on the way home. You'll need it.
If the element is at the boston show, that means it's probably not going to be at the Seattle show this weekend.
I wanted to check it out.
If the rear cargo space is that small, I guess my wife won't be considering it for her next car. We need something that will accomodate our two large dogs without having to stow the back seats. Right now, that leaves us with the Jetta Wagon, Focus Wagon, Subaru Forester or maybe the Legacy, or a host of fat gas-guzzling SUVs. There sure seem to be a lot of vehicles with the word "wagon" in the name that don't have any more cargo space than a Golf. What's up with that?
My wife would buy the Euro Accord wagon without a second thought, but Honda wants us to buy their SUVs so we won't get it here in the US.
Wagons are very space efficient. Look at a Legacy or Passat wagon - you get tons of cargo floor space. They're not as tall, and EPA volume may be less, but the space is far more useful when you have a wide and long floor.
Sorry to hear about the cheap interior bits. Did the Nissan guys do it? LOL
0-60 in 8.1 is remarkable. Who said over 10 seconds? Even the heavier AWD EX should manage 9 seconds or less.
You can add cruise, by the way. I did to my '98 Forester, it was a couple hundred IIRC. Just to make me mad, Subaru made cruise standard for '99, by the way. :-(
Snow tires? Sure, if the seasons have a clear beginning and end. Not in DC, though. You'd have wasted your time and money, since we had practically nothing for the past 2 years. And then the blizzards come in March, when you'd already have the summer tires back on. Unless you have a mechanical lift in your garage, it's completely impractical to keep swapping the tires for each storm.
And what about rain? Or driving on sand or mud? A visit to the orchard or farm? You end up using AWD even when you don't expect to.
I think you are right about living in the DC area. I also prefer having AWD for all conditions from mud to snow. If you live in the north like I do then you can further your snow driving capabilities by putting snow tires on.
Tpat3 - That does sound disappointing. I too was hoping for more space behind the second row. I suspect that Honda had to locate the rear seats way back behind the C-pillar to provide protection for those passengers. In comparison, the CR-V has more cubic footage back there AND the rear seats slide forward.
The cheapness of the plastics does not surprize me. With 3,400 lbs of steel going for only $16K, you have to cut costs somewhere. Frankly, I'm happy they cut plastics and not things like brakes, suspension, airbags, and engine.
MotorTrend and others have commented on how tightly screwed together the Element is, so I think what you saw is a preproduction vehicle.
Good review, though. Your points are well taken. Thanks!
Juice - I think we'll see a wide variation in times depending on launching techniques and equipment. The 10.8 time came from MT's SUV of the Year article, yet they state that the 5 speed 2WD is a decent/modest performer. They do not state what was used for the 0-60 test and their off-road evaluation suggests that they had access to an AWD vehicle. The 8.1 time was for a 5 speed 2WD vehicle (I've forgotten which mag).
MT December, MT SUV of Year, issue quotes 10.8 sec, 0-60, for Element; Dec issue of Consumer Guide rates DX 2wd Manual as 3 (out of 10), CRV LX Awd man was 5 and EX (AWD) auto was 4......so CG is saying the fastest Element is slower than than slowest CRV...... "that's not right" (substitute appropriately whiney voice).
BTW, Honda numbers are 9.6 sec for 2 WD manual, and 11.4 for auto AWD. I know MW just tested a 2WD manual at 8.1 sec 0-60. So, 2.7 sec for auto and AWD seems a bit much (10.8 sec). Guess you just have to bring your butt accelerometers to the test drives.
CG also reports that Element is fairly noisy...4 out of 10 and same as CRV. MT online review commented on pronounced wind noise above 60... So Element is a slow noisy trucklet?! Starting to lose me here. Quick noisy, I can live with; slow noisy is a dog (no offense inmyelement).....it's a guy thing....
The data is all over the place, but let me draw some conclusions. We know Honda can produce the Element in each of the versions sampled by CG, & MW; that is, both slow and fast (they already produce a 190hp/220lbf torque version of 2.4l motor for the European Accord). Question is what version will they mass produce for US?...I'm afraid it's going to be the 9.3 sec 0-60 2wd man & 11.4 sec 4wd auto........:-(
Comments
Might as well complain about having to let kids out of the back of a coupe while you're at it.
*rolls eyes*
But overall I agree with their assessment of the car.
But that's not going to stop families from buying this SUV and complaining about the seat belts or whatever. I would not be surprised if families represent the majority of the buyers for the Element, because for them the pros of the Element might outweigh the cons.
I think families will tend toward the CR-V, and most Element owners will have no kids (either empty nesters or DINKs).
Ric: you really design car interiors? Who to you work for?
I don't look good in heels, either.
-juice
My brother-in-law (father of one, another on the way) is cross-shopping this vehicle. He already has a Caravan.
That said, I don't think the door issue is a deal breaker. Hence my statement, "I just noticed a small problem for the first time." Having to open the rear door is no biggie. Having to open the rear door and unbelt is one step too many.
Also mentioned in other links on the page is the difference in 'composite body panels' between DX and EX models.
DX: Dark Gray
EX: Metallic Dark Gray
For safety, Honda expects five star front and side crash test results from NHTSA and Good rating from IIHS.
So true, my wife just loved the Expedition we test drove. I'd sooner buy an MPV for half the price. She loved the "image", the intoxicating feeling of power from behind the wheel, and ... the middle 2nd row seat that slid forward for easy access to our infant!
She also notice manicure-friendly door handles (I'm serious), power adjustable pedals that allowed room for her high heels (I'm still being serious), and the reverse parking sensor that beeped so that she could park it. Never mind that it's way too wide for our car port (unless we use it for one vehicle instead of two).
The smooth IRS helped a lot, too. And she loved that the center console was big enough for her purse, something the salesman said was intentional.
The next generation of buyers will avoid SUVs because that is what their parents drove. But yeah, parents are the ones buying these things, and manufacturers are catering to them. You really think off-road active lifestyle outdoor mountain climbers care about power foot pedals?
Ric: I mis-read your profile, my bad. You are an interior designer, and own those cars. Duh.
Enjoy the show. Hopefully you can sit in it. We were only able to see it up on a stand. Even then it was the concept, with the blue cladding, not a production model.
Glancing at the specs, one thing stands out: 30mm front sway bar, 21mm rear! Yowsah! That is thick for a stock set! I bet the thing corners pretty flat.
6.9" of ground clearance surprises me a bit. It looked like more.
-juice
http://element.honda.com/
Some interesting new specs (for me):
Length is 169.3 instead of previously reported 166.4; weight is about 20 lbs lighter each model; and mpg for EX Auto (AWD) is 22/26 (21/24) instead of 21/25 (20/24) as reported in early specs (College Hills Honda site).
Also most complete set of Element colors. Subtle enhancements of fender colorations to complement paint colors make each of the colors look good.
The different cladding for different colors approach is a smart move.
It's small - but did it feel small?
Did the doors feel heavy? Even though it's mean for only 4 passengers, do you feel that 3 can sit in the back in a pinch?
I missed the airing so I'll have to catch the replay later this week
but i found the transcript
acceleration
". Our front-drive EX tester briskly moved to 60 in 8.1 seconds, and on through the quarter mile trap in 16.2 seconds at 86 mph The engine revs quickly, and our drivers were impressed with the strong torque throughout the rev band. Our Element's 5-speed manual also received rave reviews for its preciseness and just- right feel. "
braking
"Element's 4-wheel drive disc braking system is equally up to the task of stopping. With large 11 inch rotors and the EX's standard ABS and Electronic Brake Distribution, we averaged stops from 60 in a good 126 feet. "
something else interesting
"The good news is that prices will start around $16,000 for a front-drive DX, and top out at under $23,000 for a well optioned 4-wheel drive EX"
$23000?????
someone off of vtec.net spotted it
and on a side note
inyelement have you also sat in the crv for comparison to the element?
i had a few questions if you noticed
1) visibility front and rear
how did it compare to the crv better or worse?
were the increased pillars for the suicide
blocking much?
2) comfort did the driving position feel
comfortable or cramped. I heard a few
complain that there wasn't enough room up
front
3) the spare tire cover did it seem sturdy enough to support the weight of most people?
oh yeah has anyone else notice their are over 1100 post now
diploid- small, yes, its just its got more space vertically, looking from rear end of E it looks small. However, it felt huge inside lots of space. Doors are VERY solid, cargo doors work great! I have no worries about safety or strenght of doors. Inside he seats in rear are higher then front, but so is the floor, lots of rear leg room but knees are a little high.Sure i guess u could put someone in the middle, but it is plastic, there are pull loops that come up from the top of the plastic, cup holders aren't really obtrucive so I'd say yes as long as it wasn't gonna be me stuck there!
Chris777- thanks for the info from show! Yes i have test driven a '02 CR-V. I must say there is a lot more room in the E then CRV, just on design alone, its just THAT different, it really is hard to compare the E to anything!. add in all that vertical space.My partner is 6'5" ,looked like a kid seating in the drivers seat, had NO problem what-so-ever with visiblity. Drivers seat is comfy, you 'feel' up high,vertical. Passenger side is where the problem is...NO SPACE its tight, I felt its just too close to the dash, 'the giant' didn't fit . The tire cover floor had a problem on one of its corners I think its just that its gottin' beat up from all the people, but it was solid , but it did give a little. The tail gate is great perfect seating and excellent access. The E and CR-V are really two totally different vehicles, you'll see!
varmint:
Acceleration numbers (8.1 sec 0-60, 03 EX 5spd 2wd, 3400lbs) were surprisingly quicker than comparable CRV (8.4 sec 0-60, 02 LX 5spd 2wd,3258lbs) with same motor/hp!?
Inmyelement:
Great review....going from Expedition to Element!????
I sympathize with the cross shopping; I'm looking at vehicles from 03 Accord to Element to another Pilot.
chris777:
So, is this getting interesting for gen y ? What's up with the $23K....dealer mark-ups already?!
Good 01-CRV vs 03-Element photos:
http://www.hondasuv.com/forum_element/viewtopic.php?t=30
When they said the Element was shorter than the CR-V by quite a large number, I suspected that they were including the CR-V's rear mounted spare when they measured it lengthwise.
Even if it's the last gen CR-V, the side-by-side comparison is visually valid.
Too bad you can't get the skylight without 4WD, and that the 5 speed 4WDs don't come out until mid '03. Lack of cruise option for DX takes that right out of the picture for me. What do you think about side air bags- cost, benefit?
-Andrew l
Don't forget the LX, I am sure it has A/C.
"preciseness"?
Do you think they meant "precision," or are they really as goofy as they appear on the show?
FYI--These guys have yet to test a vehicle they didn't really like.
That said, the Element appears to be a nice package, and it's *gasp* growing on me...a little. At least I no longer despise the idea.
RSX, CR-V, Civic Si, Accord...even the Pilot.
There is no Element LX. It's either the stipped DX or the loaded EX. Perhaps if sales pick up, they will add a mid-range LX.
-Andrew L
No LX!!! Weird! So you either pay 16 grand or 23 grand! I dunno if that is such a smart marketing strategy....
I'm just thrilled it may be faster "than skyscrapers and garbage trucks" (C&D Nov 02).
Interesting that CRV is 5spd & AWD only, yet Element will offer all combinations....eventually.
-I relate with the dog, my greyhound gone own the element, wish he'd clean it too!
varmint- you gonna go to the show?
I just totalled my 2001 Honda Civic sliding through some snow and ice, but I got out without a scratch. (I looooved that car!) Now, I'm looking for something in a 4wd, and Element or a CRV is high on my list. My question is, what are the risks in buying a brand spanking new model the first year out?
You'll always get better snow/ice traction on a 2WD vehicle with 4 snows than you will in a AWD/4WD on all-seasons.
Don't think I'm biased against AWD -- I like it enough to own a Subaru 2.5RS. But, when the snow flies, I slap on the Blizzaks.
Moonkat - I think the Element is offered with a 5 speed 2WD to lower the base cost and offer a stripped model for the Gen Y folks they are targeting. The fact that CR-Vs are built on different continents may be a factor as well.
Inmyelement - Nope. I won't make it. I recently bought a new house and I'm still busy getting settled in. I keep finding little things that need to be fixed or improved. Plus I need to build some new furniture.
How about going UP a slippery hill? How about when starting out from a dead stop? How about negotiating a corner?
While I agree that DEEP SNOW probably NECESSITATES snow tires, many snow/ice situations may be handled quite well by good all-seasons roundy-rounds. When the road conditions match the rink used in the tire ads, you need everything you can get to help!
Granted the Blizzaks are a great winter choice, with their special compound, tread design, and siping. I suspect the Blizzaks will REDUCE at least 75% of winter driving "unpleasantness", but AWD does have its place...
Saw the Element during Motor Trend TV on Speedvision last night.
Some pretty cool shots of the Element running hard through the offroad course. It seemed fairly competent. No embarassing moments like the crazy wheel hop on Motorweek's 0-60 test. I think they said it was "fun".
They mostly talked about the winner, the Volvo XC90-something. It was cool, with two leather third-row bucket seats that came out of the floor. Clever Swedes. Twice the price of the Element though.
(You can check speedvision's website for rerun times.)
Anyway, I don't think he meant that snow tires are better. Just that snow tires can be a very effective alternative.
My father and I put this problem to the test last winter because we were trying to justify buying Blizzacks for an AWD CRV.
Test vehicles...
1) SAAB 95, Front wheel drive, set of Blizzacks
2) 2002 CRV, All Wheel Drive, Brand new all season tires
* The SAAB clearly outperformed the CRV when it came to stopping and cornering. Even through deep snow up to its frame!
* The SAAB also outperformed the CRV from a stop.
I was sold without hesitation. The CRV needed a set of winter tires. Put them on, it outperformed the SAAB in every category. Since then I have taken my CRV into my friends back yard and drove around with the snow above the frame!
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_045203
Red looks real good with all black cladding.
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_045205
Lookgs like someone took a blue highlighter and went to work with this one...
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_045204
Love the seats...don't know if it'll be a turn off for people intending to use it as a family vehicle, though.
My main issues are it is too small and just seems very cheaply made, at least the interior.
Dash, guages, seats, bins, various covers and the lid for the spare tire are really flimsy. I know cars used at shows take a beating, but the ring that holds the shifter apron was broken, the coin bin came off in my hand when I opened it and the cowling for the rear seat hinge mechanism was broken and wouldn't close. There is a lot of storage, but the door bins, too, are made of thin plastic and don't seem very durable. The spare tire lid is also pretty flexible and I'd be afraid to put much weight on it.
The front seats are fairly comfortable with plenty of travel and support. I'm about 6' 1" and had lots of leg room and could wear a stovepipe hat without hitting the headliner. The rear seats are another story entirely. The seat bottoms are really short and offer zero thigh support. I would not want to spend a lot of time back there even though there is good leg and shoulder room. Accessing the rear seat is really easy with both doors open.
My biggest beef is with cargo space. With the rear seats in place, there is not much room for even luggage, never mind all the outdoor gear that Honda marketers seem to think young actives will haul in this thing. This whole "room for all your friends and all their stuff" theme is a load of crap. This car ain't built for road trips to bike, surf, snowboard , etc. unless you go by your self or maybe with one other person. I just don't see the utility in this car unless you take the rear seats out entirely.
The rear cargo hatch arrangement is pretty cool, but it took a couple of us a while to actually open it. Seems the alignment was out of whack or something and the door had gotten jammed. Again, maybe early production/car show abuse issues, but makes me concerned about the quality of this rig.
Just so this won't be a complete rant there are some really neat points. Nice positioning for the driver. Everything seems logically placed and I really like the location of the shifter. There are lots of places to put stuff like CDs, change, bags, purses, etc. The floor is really tough and would take some abuse and would be easy to clean. All the reviews say it drives great and it probably does. It's probably mechanically fine and will give good service like all Hondas.
Seems to me Honda really shaved costs by cheaping out on alot of materials. If you buy an element, pick up lots of superglue on the way home. You'll need it.
I wanted to check it out.
If the rear cargo space is that small, I guess my wife won't be considering it for her next car. We need something that will accomodate our two large dogs without having to stow the back seats. Right now, that leaves us with the Jetta Wagon, Focus Wagon, Subaru Forester or maybe the Legacy, or a host of fat gas-guzzling SUVs. There sure seem to be a lot of vehicles with the word "wagon" in the name that don't have any more cargo space than a Golf. What's up with that?
My wife would buy the Euro Accord wagon without a second thought, but Honda wants us to buy their SUVs so we won't get it here in the US.
Sorry to hear about the cheap interior bits. Did the Nissan guys do it? LOL
0-60 in 8.1 is remarkable. Who said over 10 seconds? Even the heavier AWD EX should manage 9 seconds or less.
You can add cruise, by the way. I did to my '98 Forester, it was a couple hundred IIRC. Just to make me mad, Subaru made cruise standard for '99, by the way. :-(
Snow tires? Sure, if the seasons have a clear beginning and end. Not in DC, though. You'd have wasted your time and money, since we had practically nothing for the past 2 years. And then the blizzards come in March, when you'd already have the summer tires back on. Unless you have a mechanical lift in your garage, it's completely impractical to keep swapping the tires for each storm.
And what about rain? Or driving on sand or mud? A visit to the orchard or farm? You end up using AWD even when you don't expect to.
-juice
I think you are right about living in the DC area. I also prefer having AWD for all conditions from mud to snow. If you live in the north like I do then you can further your snow driving capabilities by putting snow tires on.
The cheapness of the plastics does not surprize me. With 3,400 lbs of steel going for only $16K, you have to cut costs somewhere. Frankly, I'm happy they cut plastics and not things like brakes, suspension, airbags, and engine.
MotorTrend and others have commented on how tightly screwed together the Element is, so I think what you saw is a preproduction vehicle.
Good review, though. Your points are well taken. Thanks!
Juice - I think we'll see a wide variation in times depending on launching techniques and equipment. The 10.8 time came from MT's SUV of the Year article, yet they state that the 5 speed 2WD is a decent/modest performer. They do not state what was used for the 0-60 test and their off-road evaluation suggests that they had access to an AWD vehicle. The 8.1 time was for a 5 speed 2WD vehicle (I've forgotten which mag).
When are dealers supposed to have them? I'm curious to test one.
-juice
BTW, Honda numbers are 9.6 sec for 2 WD manual, and 11.4 for auto AWD. I know MW just tested a 2WD manual at 8.1 sec 0-60. So, 2.7 sec for auto and AWD seems a bit much (10.8 sec).
Guess you just have to bring your butt accelerometers to the test drives.
CG also reports that Element is fairly noisy...4 out of 10 and same as CRV. MT online review commented on pronounced wind noise above 60...
So Element is a slow noisy trucklet?! Starting to lose me here. Quick noisy, I can live with; slow noisy is a dog (no offense inmyelement).....it's a guy thing....
The data is all over the place, but let me draw some conclusions.
We know Honda can produce the Element in each of the versions sampled by CG, & MW; that is, both slow and fast (they already produce a 190hp/220lbf torque version of 2.4l motor for the European Accord).
Question is what version will they mass produce for US?...I'm afraid it's going to be the 9.3 sec 0-60 2wd man & 11.4 sec 4wd auto........:-(
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_045338
Element is definitely the better looking of the two.
ateixeira - We have to wait for more numbers to come in. I still think an automatic AWD Element will not break 10 seconds 0-60.