Inconsiderate Drivers (share your stories, etc.)

pjyoung

The youth in my town seem to have a difficult time of driving and yakking. At least they are going 10 to 15 mph below the speed limit when they yak, although they do have a propensity to run red lights while talking on the phone.

maltb

I think that the younger drivers will actually be safer with a phone in their hands than my age group or older.

For the younger group it will be more of a default than a new learning experience so they will have less trouble adapting to the addition of another distraction.

Just my piecemeal thoughts.

pjyoung

Every day I see a teenaged driver, cell phone pressed to their ear - either driving below the speed limit...sitting at a stop light long after it has turned green, and running red lights (almost hit by one cruising thru a red light at about 40 mph). They may be quicker to adapt, but I really wish we'd teach them that a car is not a phone booth.

ranald

I know how incredibly badly people drive when using cell phones, I can't deny it because I've seen it but I don't understand it.

Talking on a cell phone is just that, *talking*. It shouldn't be any more distracting than talking a person sitting in the passenger seat- if anything talking on a cell should be less distracting than talking to a passenger, because when you're on the phone you're less likely to make dramatic hand gestures to accompany what you're saying, and you're not likely to turn to look at the person you're talking to (something we're trained to do from childhood).

maltb

I guess we have been exposed to different experiences. The ones I notice are the ones who drift into my lane not realizing until my horn wakes theirass up or they are going 45 while the rest of the freeway is doing 65. It could be that I notice most of these on my commute home at 5-6.

pat84

I have a hands free cell phone wired into my van. The phone sits in a cradle, there is a speaker near my rear view mirror and a receiver speaker on the side of the front passengers foot well .
When my phone rings, I just start talking. The only problem is people think I am talking to myself because no phone is visible.

maltb

I think hands free is great, but I notice that I can easily get distracted trying to dial or finding the answer button.

pjyoung

if anything talking on a cell should be less distracting than talking to a passenger, because when you're on the phone you're less likely to make dramatic hand gestures to accompany what you're saying

You haven't seen that? I am one who constantly checks my rear view mirror (being rear ended will do that to you) and I noticed the guy behind me talking on his phone and "talking with his hands" with some pretty dramatic gestures. Made me wonder what he was using to steer with.

alfox

than talking in person, at least for me. I've used both hand-held and hands-free phones, and given this a lot of thought and soul searching. Today, I let voice-mail collect the call, and park to talk on the phone.

When talking on the phone you feel the need to keep up the conversation - silence on the phone is very disconcerting. Because the other person cannot see you, and what you are doing at the moment, they just keep on talking. Your natural inclination is to keep up your end of the conversation, and maintain that mental picture of the caller.

When you get into a tense moment - merging onto a freeway, traffic stopping ahead, whatever - a passenger naturally gets quiet and waits for things to settle down, but the person on the other end of the phone just keeps on rattling along. That bothers me, so I don't use the phone underway.

ranald

#706- Yup, you have the kind of setup that makes me tell people "If they outlaw cell phones in cars they'd better outlaw passengers". Nobody ever seems to understand. I always use a hands-free attachment myself, though not quite as elaborate as yours.

#708- Funny, I usually only see that sort of thing when a driver has a front seat passenger. I see the driver making huge hand gestures with both hands and I get really nervous.

#709- Sorry to say, but that just doesn't sound very bright. Noone I know has any trouble saying "hey hold on, I need to concentrate for a minute". It takes a little presence of mind to walk and chew gum at the same time, but pedestrians are allowed to use gum. *shrug* I just don't see there being anything inherently worse about a reasonable hands-free cell setup than any number of other in-car distractions that are treated as routine.

maltb

I tell callers to hold on all the time. Maybe it's the type of call I take in my car that affords me the opportunity. I generally pull over to make calls that require concentration as I might want to take notes anyway.

alfox

I'm not an anti-phone zealot, and I ride with mine on most of the time. I have no problem saying "hang-on", or even ignoring the call if necessary. Personally I find talking on the phone more distracting than a conversation with a passenger. Can't you simply say that you don't find it the same way without the "not very bright" cheap shot?

ranald

Yeah I was already kind of apologising in advance for the way I thought that might sound... but it's such a small adjustment to make.

I just can't help but think that anyone incapable of sufficiently adjusting that they *can't* safely use a hands-free cell phone just can't be very capable of adjusting, in general.

ghulet

I think I'm a fairly dexterous person, but I do remember several times when I've 'spaced out' while talking on my phone. Comparing a phone conversation (not hands-free) to talking to a passenger is ridiculous, IMO.

Today, I was at a six-way intersection (Clark/Halsted/Barry) behind someone in an SUV, trying to make it through the green, which on Barry only lasts ten seconds. She's puttering, puttering through the intersection, then after making the same half-right turn I was trying to make, STOPS in the middle of the intersection. Apparently, she saw the red light (for Clark) above her after making the turn and thought it was for her. DUH, you're in the middle of a six-way intersection, toots, that lights not for you.
Unfortunately, I've seen this several times at our many six-way intersections (especially Clark/Sheffield/Newport). Wake up, folks.

idletask

I do around 500 miles a week, always the same road. Sometimes heavy fog happens, and you can't see above 50 feet, if not less. In such situations I slow to a mere 50mph, which is already too fast. No way. Most people are passing me at speeds above 60mph, sometimes even more than 70mph. I have my rear fog lights on, so that may explain why none of these people have wrecked me - yet.

I own a car which makes passing a breeze, so I take the opportunity of this to lengthen the distance between the car in front of me and pass it when the road is clear. Too bad, a er sticks to my derriere and passes between us... in a curve!

This same passing power has also made me hit hard on the brake pedal sometimes... I surge from behind a car to pass a group of them, one er in said group doesn't even have a glance at his side mirror and passes without even showing prior intent by putting on his direction light!

Talking about direction lights, they're barely used at all anyway... On an average commuting around the city, I see only one person out of five using them to indicate a turn. Especially raging is the lack of them in turnabouts... You have to watch carefully at what each car does and I've often been horned after for engaging into the turnabout whereas the guy who was already engaged wanted to take the exit next to my entrance. But hey, how could I know! In this case his left direction light should have been on! Do you think that people would matter if direction lights were made optional?

Left lane campers are equally annoying. In fact, they *are* dangerous because of the annoyance they generate. People who want to pass and see such a sucker in front of them have good reasons to get annoyed, so they might start to behave inconsiderately. Been there, done that...

Aah, traffic jams. Talk about other inconsiderate behaviours... The road I take is plain one lane, except some portions which are two-lane to allow passing. Doh. When a traffic jam occurs at the end of such a passing lane, the reason would tell you to just stick to the right lane, follow the trend and wait. Naaah. Suckers just want to pass, so they also jam the left lane, resulting in even slower traffic.

Using the phone may be less of a problem in the US than it is here... Here most people use manual gearboxes. Try to maintain the wheel and change gears with only one hand... Once I followed a guy and saw his car wallow from left to right. I wondered if he was drunk or anything... Given an opportunity to pass, I do so. The guy was on the phone, and he held it using his *right* hand! Need I say that he didn't even think about using direction lights on turns?

pjyoung

Using the phone may be less of a problem in the US than it is here... Here most people use manual gearboxes. Try to maintain the wheel and change gears with only one hand...

One of the "youthful" drivers I speak of was talking on her cell phone, smoking a cigarett, and driving her 5 speed Prelude. Not doing a very good job of it I might add.

ranald

Well according to the prevailing logic these days, that "youthful" Prelude driver would be just cause to ban smoking in cars.

pat84

My hands free phone doesn't require me to do do anything for an incoming call. It just rings and the conversation starts. I do not have to look away from the road. I do not gesture when I talk.
However, I do give other drivers the obscene gesture of the day.. I may show them the sole of my shoe,or scrape my chin with the back of my hand outward, or shake my thumb upwards,or grab my uward thrust right arm with my left hand, or snap my fingers and point to my groin etc.

pjyoung

Those are okay as long as you don't "moon" them.

verozahl

ewww.

pat84

It is too hard to moon and drive.
Have you ever heard of the old sailing term "raking broad side". It was a maneuver when one sailing ship crossed vertically across the bow or stern of an opposing ship. Each gun fired in turn as it came directly in range of the other ships bow( or stern)
I used to scuba dive. We were diving from a 64 foot boat, when a much smaller boat came in and dropped its anchor while we were diving on a ship wreck 120 feet deep, about 30 miles out in the Atlantic. This was an incredibly dangerous thing for us below.
When we got back to our boat we all got in a different port hole and gave them a raking moon
Our boat captain was 65 years old and he laughed the rest of the day.

kinley

you are tempted to be annoyed? When you get ticked off at another driver, he has succeeded in upsetting you and you are the loser because you lost your cool. Other drivers can't annoy you without your willingness to be annoyed. Road rage is a decision, not an automatic reflex. Control yourself first. When another driver won't get out of your way - live with it by developing your patience, and your character as well. "I'll show you!" is not the rule.

tboner1965

When you do something that you know angers others, then you must share equally in the responsibility for what happens.

So if you are a LLC and your actions enrage another, remember that you ALSO had the power to prevent this situation by controlling your urge to Show Them

You can't have it both ways.

In fact, in my opinion, you are far more dangerous, because you know your behavior can trigger those reactions, yet you do it anyway.

So practice what you preach and control your urge to enforce the rules without a badge.

You too can decide to cooperate instead of your passive aggressive and dangerous amature attempts at traffic law enforcement.

TB

kinley

so be it and if speeding faster than the law allows is a no no, so be it, but neither the speeder nor the LLC is reponsible for the reaction of the offended person. The offended person makes up his own mind as to how he reacts and he alone is reponsible for his actions. "You can't have it both ways." Your attempt at blaming others for your actions (and reactions) is part of what's wrong with the world today. And, oh yes, the object of your disdain is not to be blamed for your decision to react immaturely. It's always your sole and individual choice to be cool or be a fool.

tboner1965

You don't get it?

But let me get this straight.

It is ok for you to engage in behavior that will certainly make some motorist mad, but it is not ok for that motorist to get mad, hmmmm.

It is ok for you to break the law, seems to me Missouri is very clear on this

. Driving 5 MPH Over the Speed Limit is an Infraction. §304.009.1
II. Driving at less than the normal speed of traffic and not driving in the right lane is an Infraction.(6) §304.015.7
III. Driving 20 MPH Over the Speed Limit is a Class B Misdemeanor. §304.010.10
IV. A Violation of the Basic Speed Rule is a Class B Misdemeanor. §304.012.2
V. A Violation of the Basic Speed Rule which results in an accident is a Class A Misdemeanor. §304.012.2
VI. Driving so as to Impede Traffic is an Unclassified Traffic Regulations Misdemeanor. §§304.11.1 & 304.570
VII. A Violation of the Posted Speed Limit Established Under §304.351.7 (prima facie evidence of careless and imprudent driving) is a Class C Misdemeanor. §304.351.8
VIII. All Other Speed Law Violations, including driving <40 MPH on a Federal Interstate, are Class C Misdemeanors. §§304.010.10 & 304.011.2 </i>

Notice that both are against the law. The points awarded are the same for moving violations.

So you are telling the world, that it is ok for you to impede traffic, when it is clear that doing so, in Missouri and other states is illegal.

Notice, I never said speeding was legal, I know that it is against the law.

I just find it ironic that you want to selectively enforce one law by breaking another.

Yeah, that is safe.

You cannot honestly believe you are contributing to a safe road by causing cars to bunch up in traffic. Common sense would tell you that clear avenues of escape are one of the best safety "features" you have. So now we have three kinley's driving abreast, enforcing the speed limit, or more likely they are going the speed limit, and everyone else behind them are speeding up and slowing down trying to "find daylight".

Yeah this is safe, riiiight.

Get over to the right, and simply keep the Highway patrol on your speed dial. When you see someone who is really out of control, call in their tag to the police and let the pros enforce the law.

Or take the bus if you feel the roads are too unsafe.

You have been told that people DO take offense to your particular style of driving. You have been told that it is similar to walking into a Rainbow Coalition meeting in Klan garb, or a man who would wear [non-permissible content removed] garb to a Synagog(sp?).

Are you prejudiced against speeders? It sure sounds that way to me, with all of your efforts to slow them down.

What are your professional qualifications anyway. At least I've been to high performance drivers training, so I've been trained to handle a car at high speeds.

What are your qualifications to selectively enforce traffic laws?

TB

kinley

"At least I've been to high performance drivers training, so I've been trained to handle a car at high speeds." Says it all. Ever notice the public roads are not high speed raceways? Your attitude is being applied to the wrong piece of blacktop. The pubic roads are not dedicated to only those "trained to handle a car at high speeds." People take offense at all kinds of driving, yours, mine, and others, but they don't control your mind to be ticked off. If you can't control your emotions while driving, your reaction to what ticks you off is the 100% cause of the result. Don't let my style of driving tick you off. Live with it & figure out a non emotional response. (Klan & [non-permissible content removed] garb stories are egregious examples and off the point)

maltb

are you sure that by being an LLC you are making the roads a safer place to be?

eharri3

The pubic roads are not dedicated to only those "trained to handle a car at high speeds."
--------------------------------

Kinley, maybe things would be a heck of alot better if they were.

Was in Blockbuster this afternoon easing the truck back out of a parking slot. Had carefully checked in both directions and behind me but some cretin comes flying around the corner as im backing out and decides his schedule is too hectic for him to stop and give me 10 seconds to pull the rest of the way out, so he goes speeding behind me doing a good 30 mph without even pausing. He woulda hit the back of my truck if i didnt keep checking both ways as i back out like i always do for those wonderful motorists who are always too busy to slow down and make life a bit easier for their fellow human being.

scotian

Address tboner's other points.

tboner1965

So, I will presume that you don't have a good answer.

Evade and deflect. Kinley, what you accuse other of doing (taking out aggression on others, harboring hostility) is a exact description of YOUR behavior.

I believe the psycobabble term for this is "projection"

But I will not comment again until you answer the question that you evade.

To remind you, they are:

What are your qualifications to selectively enforce traffic laws?

Are you prejudiced against speeders?

And one more, can you show me, with references, that it is legal for you to block traffic, regardless of the speed limit? I've heard you mention that the speed limit trumps other laws.

Please show me the legal references for this.

I will only participate in a discussion with someone who will participate in a rationale fashion. I have brought my examples here, and simply ask you to honestly answer the questions.

If you cannot give simple answers to simple questions, then I must presume that the answers are not flattering to your argument, hence you evade them.

So stop with the ad hominem attacks on speeders as if they are crazed lunatics and simply answer the questions presented.

I would really like to know how irritating your fellow driver (as you have been told, countless times) by LLC'ing, that you are helping everyone arrive?

How does bunching up traffic in tight packs contribute to safety?

And finally, who put you in charge of traffic enforcement?

Answers please.

Please note, that I am not trying to attack you, but rather want to understand your motivations for your behavior.

TB
Who does believe in the power of simile

tboner1965

Here is a generic description of Kinley's argument.

One can see that it can be described as a fallacy.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html

eharri3

And my suggestion is always the same. He should go up to his nearest friendly highway patrolman and let him know that he has a new super duper secret under cover deputy in kinley, and that kinley will be doing his part as a private citizen to obstruct speeding drivers and cause frustrated, annoyed, irritated, impatient, and possibly very late motorists to clump together in rolling traffic jams while weaving and dodging in and out of traffic to get around him.

black_tulip

I don't understand what the big deal with Kinley is about. Kinley has chosen to disobey one law("keep right") and speeders have chosen to disregard another("speed limit 55"). Kinley tries to enforce speed limits by llc'ing, whereas speeders tend to enforce "keep right" by tailgating. What behaviour causes more damage is by no means certain and is open to discussion.

tboner1965

"Inconsiderate Drivers" I ask, is impeeding others considerate or inconsiderate?

I do agree, that road rage is very inconsiderate.

But speeding, by it self is not road rage.

And I believe all parties involved in road rage events should be held responsible.

So in a sense, I do agree with Kinley that those who get enraged need better control of themselves.

I do not agree however, that in all cases, the road rager is unprovoked.

I do believe that someone who knowingly LLC's is (at the extreme, I know) provoking road rage.

And it certainly is not very considerate, which is the topic of discussion here, yet again.

So I believe the considerate thing to do is avoid being a LLC. Besides, if the LLC would get over and let traffic pass, he might actually see someone operating in a reckless fashion, and could call the Highway Patrol.

Which is a very considerate thing to do for your fellow drivers.

But to assume that everyone who operates a vehicle above the speed limit is going to kill those around them, is simply insulting, at the very least.

TB
Who likes it when the State Police speed by at 80+, setting the pace for the rest of us, who follow in their example 8^)

PF_Flyer

We've been down this road a couple of times before. Let's be careful when it comes to discussing each other OK?

Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood host!

PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards

grbeck

This discussion pops up like clockwork, about every five weeks or so. It's almost like a soap opera...the same story line keeps repeating itself. Even the characters are the same!

How long until the evil twin works his way into this thread?

verozahl

If you merge on the expressway and cut someone off in the left lane, is that inconsiderate driving? Better yet, if you drive like an [non-permissible content removed], are you an [non-permissible content removed]? What ancient philosopher would be able to answer that ethical dilemma?? >:p

BTW Camrys have pretty good noise-blasters, er, horns. Geez lady, didn't see ya! >;p

idletask

As far as I can see, there are two main reasons for a driver to be/turn inconsiderate:

1. he has no notion of danger,
2. he thinks he drives better than the others.

Let's look at the LLC. IMHO it's a perfect example of 2. Because he abides to speed limits, all others who go faster don't have to do this. Questionable reasoning, in any case. If he were that good, he'd figure out that the guy behind him might get angry and turn inconsiderate. Driving is also taking "care" of others.

Speeders, at some point, are perfect examples of 1. Maybe they don't know that going twice faster doesn't mean twice the stopping distance, but four times (E = m*v^2). Also, I'm not sure all of them look carefully at their tires before taking the wheel. But there's a HUGE difference between exceeding the speed limit and excessive speed. You can do the first without falling into the second. Problem is, very, very few of us know in which limits. I don't know them myself.

Then there are the worst ones, "derriere stickers" (I don't know the accurate term, but I think you get the picture), the greatest, and more common, example of 1. There's a law in France now, which stipulates that you should let at least a two *seconds* interval between you and the car before. If this law were really enforced, there would probably be tens of millions of fines a day. Also, abide to this law and some cretin will immediately pass you to get in the middle. Happened to me not later than yesterday.

I had a great example of cretin the other day. Travelling a town, there was a pedestrian way and someone waiting to cross. If all drivers were following the rules, the guy wouldn't be waiting, that's the first point. I stopped to let him pass. First, the guy immediately behing me horns at me (that's this same guy whom I mention in the above paragraph). Second, the guy right after him passed us both and has forced the pedestrian to stop in the middle of the street. Talk about a cretin. I'm not the kind of guy to denounce, but I surely felt like when I saw that.

alfox

"Yeah I was already kind of apologising in advance for the way I thought that might sound... but it's such a small adjustment to make.

I just can't help but think that anyone incapable of sufficiently adjusting that they *can't* safely use a hands-free cell phone just can't be very capable of adjusting, in general."

BTW, I never said I was incapable of anything. I use a cell phone routinely, and used a hand-held for years. All I said was that talking on the phone is more distracting than conversing with a passenger. For me, it is.

:-)

tboner1965

I just thought of something based on what you said about the care of others.

Driving is a team activity, and we are basically all on the same side.

The problems arise when personal wills (regardless of the motives) come into play.

I was going to say driving is a team sport, but that implies competition. We are not competing with each other on the expressway, we are just trying to get to where we need to be.

And that's why I find LLC inconsiderate, they aren't being a good team player by wilfully blocking traffic.

TB

kinley

I'm not saying I selectively enforce traffic laws, that came out of your interpretation. Re: Speeders - I don't admire them. It is your assumption LLC are blocking, but how can they be blockers when driving at the maximum speed limit? Nobody is to go over the limit so if the LLC is at the limit, nobody is being impeded.
If you feel someone put me in charge of traffic enforcement, means you as a speeder resent those who won't "get the Hell out of my way because I'm a trained high speed driver and have a Certificate of having taken a high speed driving course." LLC are not responsible for "bunching". The bunching process is the individual decision of each driver. It is amazing and somewhat amusing to see how desperate speeder's arguments can be so as to have their own way. One final note: Last Sunday while driving my 66 Mustang to and from the show, I drove 60 mph in the outside lane(next to shoulder) & was never in the inside lane. =30=

maltb

LLC are not responsible for "bunching".

a road's capacity is directly related to speed of the vehicles on it.

alfox

AAA Warns Drivers on Truck Dangers
Tue Jul 23,11:24 AM ET

By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - A motorists organization is using some stark statistics to encourage drivers to pay special attention around tractor-trailer trucks and other large commercial rigs.

The AAA found that people in passenger vehicles account for 98 percent of the fatalities in car-truck collisions and that in 80 percent of such crashes, the driver of the car was driving dangerously.

Each year, more than 5,000 people are killed and 140,000 injured in crashes between passenger vehicles and large commercial trucks over 10,000 pounds, according to the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety.

Passenger vehicles include cars, pickups, minivans and sport utility vehicles.

The AAA study examined 94 factors that contribute to crashes. It found that 80 percent of passenger vehicle drivers had at least one unsafe driving act identified by police, survivors and witnesses, compared to 27 percent of truck drivers.

AAA said it will focus its public safety campaign on the top five driving behaviors cited, which were involved in 65 percent of the crashes:

_Failure to keep in the lane or running off the road.

_Failure to yield the right of way.

_Driving too fast for conditions or above the speed limit.

_Failure to obey signs and signals.

_Driver inattention.

The same factors also contribute most often to crashes between passenger cars.

Peter Kissinger, president of the AAA foundation, said it makes sense that professionally trained truck drivers would drive more safely, but the campaign will target both car and truck drivers to reduce crashes.

"We are trying to steer the agenda away from who's at fault, but the main message is to get the entire community to work together," he said. "Car drivers who have voiced concern, in fact fear, about driving around large trucks, can control their destiny."

pdalpsher

I've seen posts about the various activities folks perform when driving and I've seen most of them. Today I saw someone doing two at once...
yacking on a cell phone (held in left hand) while applying lipstick with the right hand. Hands on steering wheel = zero
I got away from her pronto as one pothole and she would have been out of control. Is there some law about the more expensive the car the more clueless the driver?

Sylvia

I had to laugh and then gasp when I read that. Here's my "whoa" from last night...

Driving down the freeway I noticed the car ahead of me was going from one side of the lane to the other. That was enough for me, either she was drunk or busy doing something other than driving. When I past her I saw what she was doing - talking on a cell phone with the left hand and half turning around to smack a kid in the backseat with her right hand, grabbing the steering wheel every once in a while in between.

Geesh.

rowlandj

I have a question for Kinley. On a totally open road do you still drive in the "fast lane" even if the other lanes are completely open?

Just curious,

JR

verozahl

Kinley has said numerous times before that he does that. No problem with that, he's not holding up traffic, as the right lane(s) is(are) wide open then. If the road is empty, there are two types of lanes.
The "Kinley lane" and the "open" lanes!

idletask

> how can they be blockers when driving at the maximum speed limit?

THINK a little. It may be LLC's wish to obey the speed limit, but not others'. You can drive faster than the limit without driving at an inconsiderate speed, ie you can drive faster than the limit *without being a speeder*.

Driving is driving with others. Same as for civil liberties, the liberties of driving choices stops where others' liberties start. Being an LLC is just impeding on others' liberties. This is simple logic.

pjyoung

Is the "Kinley lane" moveable...that is, is his cruise control set at the speed limit (calibrated daily to insure an accurate reading), and does he change lanes should he check his mirror and note that the lawbreaker has decided to further break the traffic laws by passing on the right, and move over to insure proper traffic law safety?

verozahl

The point, pjyoung, is that the "kinley lane" is his and you really should get out of it, because it's not yours! >;p That's why it is the 'kinley lane.' Not your lane. His lane. And I'm sure if you ask, he'll be pleased to supply the paperwork that says "I own this lane."

Thus there are two types of lanes. The 'kinley lane' and the "everybody else" lane.