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Inconsiderate Drivers (share your stories, etc.)

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Comments

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    You had said so.

    No I said they set it at 35 due to people who will go over (read margin or error).

    We are not talking about setting rural interstate highway speeds to 45.

    They could post yellow speed limits in the zone advising drivers of an oncoming section where the defacto speed limit might be too high for some.

    Thoe yellow signs are not speed limit signs but advisory signs. But if they were again you would be changing the speed limit 6 times in under 3 miles. Again thats not reasonable nor prudent.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Simple, as I lifted off the throttle after the car upshifted, I glanced down at my speedo briefly and it was between 48 and 50.

    And your speedo was last calibrated when?

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,325
    yellow signs are not speed limit signs but advisory signs.

    And don't you just love those brain-dead imbeciles who -in broad daylight and dry conditions- slow down to 50% of the advisory speed and STILL ride their brakes through the entire corner?

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    Actually, as our legal system hold that the accused is innocent until proven guilty... the burden of proof is on the police to prove his wrongdoing.

    Not, as you would have it, on the accused to prove his innocence.

    Please remember that this is America, not someplace like China.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    The burden of proof on the police is that he was going over the posted speed limit. They have a radar reading of 52 MPH and a speed limit of 35 MPH that should be proof enough.

    Andres defense is that the speed limit is set to low, he has the burden of proof to prove that the speed limit is to low.

    The post that I was responding to andres was stating that the police may not have used proper calibration of the Radar gun. If wishes to use that as a defense the burden of proof of that is on andres.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • loncrayloncray Member Posts: 301
    You are exactly correct that Andre is innocent until proven guilty and that the burden of proof is on the police officer. Unfortunately, absent that police officer entering this forum and explaining things from his point of view, all we have is Andre's side of the story. What has been stated in here by him can be boiled down to (IMHO): "I was going more than the legal speed limit, but it's really the fault of: (pick one, depending on the day) the La Mesa PD/the courts/the traffic engineers/space aliens." If the accused really was innocent, then he'd start with "I was going 35/less mph in a 35 mph zone..."
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    So in other words it's never simply because you are breaking the law.

    Well, that might be going too far. The way the maximum speed law is written, almost everyone is breaking the law at some point or another on the San Diego Country Freeways and Interstates.

    That could easily be done by not speeding.


    Not possible in CA. They will ticket you for other reasons/Vehicle codes at-will, false allegations routinely thrown around in the name in revenue. There is no way to avoid Southern California's traffic enforcement for long unless you are 40 or older and drive a Camry or something equally boring.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,325
    The post that I was responding to andres was stating that the police may not have used proper calibration of the Radar gun. If wishes to use that as a defense the burden of proof of that is on andres.

    In Kentucky the Commonwealth must prove that:
    1. The operator of the speed measuring device was properly trained
    2. The operator's certification is current
    3. The speed measuring device was properly maintained and calibrated
    4. The device was operated properly(pursuant to any state regulations and/or manufacturer's instructions)

    As an aside, in Jefferson County(Louisville Metro) the Commonwealth is probably looking at losing as many as 600 DUI cases because several of the technicians who inspect the Intoxilyzer 5000 machines on a monthly basis allowed their certifications to lapse. No proof of inspection by a currently certified tech=suppression of the BA result.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    "I was going more than the legal speed limit,

    You forgot that in CA the legal speed limit is always 65 MPH unless conditions otherwise prevent it from being safe, reasonable, and prudent. The posted 35 is merely a guideline, and a prima facie speed guideline, note that the sign doesn't say "MAXIMUM speed limit."

    Exceptions include school zones (when children are present), construction zones, and residential "local roads."
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    changing the speed limit 6 times in under 3 miles. Again thats not reasonable nor prudent.

    Okay, so just post 6 advisory signs and don't change the speed limit at all.

    Works wonders when people use common sense.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    And your speedo was last calibrated when?

    I probably check my Garmin GPS navigation unit approximately on a monthly basis to correspond within + or - 2 MPH to my speedo. As good as any tuning fork in my opinion!

    Advantages include being able to test and compare at more than one speed, whereas the forks are usually tuned to some slow speed that doesn't prove anything at higher speeds.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    Yes actually that is technically true and not just in SDC and SoCa freeways and interstates. So for example, if this was truly enforced , everyone who causes an accident or be held "at fault" should be issued a ticket for violation of that speed law. Anymore it seems that a much larger percentage of folks like to the the hit and run scenario.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    edited January 2012
    They have a radar reading of 52 MPH and a speed limit of 35 MPH that should be proof enough.

    Unfortunately that is wrong. It is not enough. The officer must prove in court beyond a reasonable doubt that I've violated each and EVERY element of the crime. As the vehicle code is currently written, safety violation is an element of the crime. It is not enough for him to show I was going over 35. He must also prove that my speed was unreasonable, unsafe, and unprudent given the conditions present that day.

    As to improper calibration and proving the speed limit was set too low by traffic engineering survey, that can all be obtained in the discovery process, and records will be checked, and if favorable to my defense, they will be mentioned in court. This is IN ADDITION too my defense testimony, but the burden of proof for unsafe driving is on the officer. If the officer during his testimony forgets to mention that my driving was unsafe somehow, I could move for dismissal right then and there without presenting a single word or picture for my defense, as the "prosecution - which is the officer only in CA, no DA) has failed to provide evidence of every element of the infraction. I guess you could call that lack of prosecution.

    P.S. The radar reading isn't enough to establish speed. The correct procedure for HOLDING up in court is that the officer should first visually estimate my speed, then use the radar to verify his estimate.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,681
    It should be legal for cars to stop and go at red lights with no cross traffic, too.

    I agree. I think the article is poorly worded stating that they are now allowed to "run" red lights. Running a red light is failing to stop and just driving on through the intersection. Stopping for the light, then proceeding through when safe to do so is not running the light.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Exactly. When I stop and go at a negligently maintained traffic control, I am not "running" the light in reality. I am not doing anything reckless, or when logic is applied, bad at all. I am simply conserving time and fuel by crossing when it is safe. And until the traffic engineers can get this stuff running 100%, I will continue to do so as long as there is no revenue enforcer (either human or camera) in the line of sight.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The real precedence for this is really a step below a 4 way SIGN stop. It should be more than obvious that if one has a green signal and one has a stop signal (if this is ever adopted) that if the stopped car is hit, it should and would logically be the red cars at fault accident.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    It should be legal for cars to stop and go at red lights with no cross traffic, too.

    Strongly disagree. If an intersection warrants a red light traffic signal, then it was already deemed busy/dangerous enough to not be controlled by a simple stop sign. And, of course, a stop sign allows a driver to proceed through the intersection after a complete stop and a visual scan indicating it is safe to move ahead.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    That's nice, but traffic volumes that warrant a light are often not 24/7. When I go to work at 0530, it's a different world than at 1730. If the engineers were smart or worked harder, they might be able to have a blinking light system in early hours as exists in some locations, but I guess not.

    Reliance on hard controls like lights just breeds inattention, IMO. Lights are the laziest form of traffic control, no matter who might deem it to be needed.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If the engineers were smart or worked harder, they might be able to have a blinking light system in early hours as exists in some locations, but I guess not.

    I wonder if it's not just a matter of more effort, but money... your tax money. Money to rig the signals so they'll blink at off-hours (can they do that w/o any refit?), and at minimum to pay someone to do the set-up work... assuming it can't be done in someone's "spare time".

    Also the city would need to know it's a problem worth fixing. Have you complained to your city about the signals being active at all hours? Have you encouraged others in your city to do the same, so the city knows the extent of the problem?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited January 2012
    I live in a relatively affluent area, and the city has actually responded and fixed stuck lights when I have reported them in the past (although sometimes it took more than one try), so I know they have the ability to take action - but when it comes to sequencing and time of day issues, they don't reply. There are some lights on a corridor that are sequenced rather than using sensors, and for some reason they only use a weekend sequence on Sundays, not Saturdays - which creates huge needless delays on those Saturdays. No response on that one. I haven't yet suggested blinking lights before 0600 or whatever, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it. I suspect I am blacklisted now, I got my three fixes :shades:

    On the inconsiderate driver topic, about 30 mins ago about a half a block from where I sit, a mid 00s Civic apparently smacked a Pilot (I think, dark) from behind - I had a window open and heard the tires screech and the smash. Damage didn't look terrible, but all manner of aid cars including a ladder truck showed up. Yapper, texter, drinker, eater, child-minder, who knows.
  • loncrayloncray Member Posts: 301
    I forgot nothing of the sort. Were that the case, then very few speeding tickets (below 65 mph and outside of the exceptions you list) would be issued in CA, and folks (like myself) who enjoy a bit of speed in my driving would flock there for the enjoyment of blasting around with no worries of a ticket. As that is plainly not the case, your argument is false, prima facie. There are many people who have written various 'guides to getting out of a ticket'; if your argument had merit, then there'd be a bunch of books declaring that '65 is the real limit, you can ignore those signs that falsely claim to declare a lower limit' on the best seller lists. Here's a challenge, Andre: link to a news article in which anyone - any single person in the State of California - used your argument successfully in court.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    edited January 2012
    a couple minutes on google found this one:

    http://www.helpigotaticket.com/speed/basic.html

    Good enough for you?

    ON another page/link from that same website sourced above, I found this:

    Iggy Awards

    Judge Gary K. Barrett
    Defendant was cited for violation of Vehicle Code section 22350. The officer checked radar on the ticket.

    The case went to trial in the Superior Court, Ventura County, where the defendant cited People v Goulet and pointed out that the survey had a critical speed of 46 mph which could in no way justify the posted limit of 35 mph. Further, the 35 mph limit made violators out of 96% of all of the drivers in the survey.

    Judge Barrett noted that he knows the judges who wrote the Goulet decision, and then proceeded to ignore it and find the defendant guilty.

    The DA did not file a Response Brief; the Appellate Division affirmed their findings in Goulet and reversed Judge Barrett.

    ____
    This definitely helps me to feel confident should I be found guilty at trial I will win on appeal.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    link title

    Certainly not this LT. Governor !!
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Were that the case, then very few speeding tickets (below 65 mph and outside of the exceptions you list) would be issued in CA, and folks (like myself) who enjoy a bit of speed in my driving would flock there for the enjoyment of blasting around with no worries of a ticket.

    Your argument does not hold water. It doesn't even hold air, and here's why:

    1) Officers routinely write tickets that won't hold up in court. Why? Because 95% of people are too lazy to fight their ticket and just pay up anyway.

    2) Of the 5% or so that do fight their ticket, a huge percentage, around 90%+ are found guilty anyway when the officers show up and tesitfies. This conviction rate in traffic court shows an unfair discrepancy for "real" "fair" trials with a jury present.

    3) It is very time consuming and costly to file an appeal. Even I have never filed an appeal, and I had one case were I'm mad I myself for not doing so. I had a perfectly appealable conviction, and my time resources were simply too limited at the time to take it further. I won't make that mistake again.

    4) Per the above, that is the reason people do not flock to CA to drive. You can drive perfectly safely and legally, but you'll waste a whole lot of time in traffic court to do so! And you may or may not win depending on how fair and knowledgeable your judge is.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Must have been unintended acceleration. :)

    Interesting that he asked for the breathalyser at the scene and then requested that the black box info be made public. (masslive.com)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    I guess he still wants to run for POTUS, eh? I am surprised he didn't call it a Republican plot! He will probably have Romney care experience by then?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I was surprised none of the links mentioned his party affiliation. I had to look it up on Wikipedia.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    It appears there are several CA appellate decisions that establish:

    1) Basic speed law requires prosecution the burden and duty to establish the driver was unsafe and posed a hazard somehow to person or property.

    2) Burden of providing a valid certified traffic and engineering survey validating the posted speed limit to show it was not a speed trap is on the prosecution.

    3) http://www.helpigotaticket.com/cases/index.html
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,681
    edited January 2012
    Based on the information there, it sounds to me like he fell asleep and ran off the road. I've seen that happen before, and, unless the driver is using cruise control, they will always accelerate rather generously before the end. In a way, it was unintended acceleration! :P

    No seat belt, too. I'm a little surprised he survived; I guess he's just lucky he didn't get ejected from the car.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Not possible in CA. They will ticket you for other reasons/Vehicle codes at-will, false allegations routinely thrown around in the name in revenue.

    I find that hard to believe. I really don't believe that the police are pulling people over for no real reason at all and issuing tickets without a cause. I have been driving for some 35 years and have been pulled over exactly three times for non speed related issues. Twice for a burned out bulb (given warnings) and once due to the officer thinking that my plate had expired (the officer admitted his mistake, apologized and let me go).

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Common sense would have the SL to be at or below the maxium speed that a vehicle can safely navagate it.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Actually I do believe that the state claiming that you were going over the posted speed limit only has to prove that you were. You contesting this by saying that the speed limit and the enforcement of such was illegal would have to prove such.

    Now if you were stating that you were not going past the posted speed limit you would have nothing to prove, the total burden would be on the state.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Stopping for the light, then proceeding through when safe to do so is not running the light.

    Well since the law states that you may not proceed through a red light excpet to make a right turn after a complete stop when traffic is clear from both directions or under direction from a law enforcement officer going through a red light is running a red light.

    Now if you want something that allows you to stop and the proceed when traffic is clear they have that. It's called a stop sign.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    If the engineers were smart or worked harder, they might be able to have a blinking light system in early hours as exists in some locations, but I guess not.

    The lights around here will stay green for the main street and will only turn if a vehicle approaches on the lightly used street. Seems better than blinking lights.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Actually I do believe that the state claiming that you were going over the posted speed limit only has to prove that you were.

    The truth is, if you review the case law I provided a link to, time and time again the Basic speed law interpretation has been upheld to require the officer to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that:

    1) you were going over the posted speed limit

    AND, not or

    2) you were a hazard and unsafe in some way

    If he fails to do both sufficiently, his prosecution is INSUFFICIENT, case closed.

    The burden in this country is always on the prosecution.

    As soon as I raise the speed trap defense, it is accepted since the citation already shows radar was used, and the burden is on the prosecution to prove it wasn't a speed trap. I hope they bring a valid traffic engineering survey with them to court!

    Of course, since I already know the survey will favor me, I'll make sure I have my copy just in case! And to avoid having to win on an appeal with a bum judge.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    I have been driving for some 35 years and have been pulled over exactly three times for non speed related issues.

    Try living and moving to southern CA, land of the walk-up pay-through window for traffic payments.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Well since the law states that you may not proceed through a red light excpet to make a right turn after a complete stop when traffic is clear from both directions or under direction from a law enforcement officer going through a red light is running a red light.

    Now if you want something that allows you to stop and the proceed when traffic is clear they have that. It's called a stop sign.


    You are right.. This is where we need the law changed nationally State by State.

    Running a red light at full speed should not be the same penalty, same law, and same fine as making say, a right turn at 1 MPH.

    Legalizing right turn "yielding" rather than "stopping" would save billions of gallons of gas and manhours over a period of time.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    The truth is, if you review the case law I provided a link to

    Ah of course the link to the site that tells people how to beat a ticket. You read it on the internet so it must be true.

    I am going to start to run into that myself real soon.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    You are right.. This is where we need the law changed nationally State by State.

    The law doesn't need changing. If you want an intersection where you can go through once it is clear lobby your city council to remove the traffic light and install a stop sign.

    Running a red light at full speed should not be the same penalty, same law, and same fine as making say, a right turn at 1 MPH.

    I disagree it's the action not the speed that is the infraction. Should the mugger who only gets $5 get a lesser sentence than the mugger who got $100 simply because he got less money?

    Legalizing right turn "yielding" rather than "stopping" would save billions of gallons of gas and manhours over a period of time.

    Again I disagree, what is a yeild? How fast can you make that turn? 1MPH? 2? 5? I simply don't believe that slowing down and making the turn gives you enough time to adequitly assess the situation and determine if it is safe to proceed.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    remove the traffic light and install a stop sign

    Or just put it on a timer and have it go to flashing red in light traffic times.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Or just put it on a timer and have it go to flashing red in light traffic times

    As I had said the lights here will stay on green for the main road and will only change when cross traffic approaches.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • loncrayloncray Member Posts: 301
    No, not good enough for me. I said 'news article' - that means something reported by a real journalist. Some anecdote(s) from a website that purports to help people get out of tickets has the same reliability as, for example, the National Enquirer claiming that the President is a space alien.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I have to agree with you. I do taxes and sometimes I will get someone arguing a position that they found on some website. The problem is many sites that offer tips on paying less or no taxes suggest ilegal things. Things that could cost you.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I hope Andres doesn't push the revenue enforcers for too much proof...he might end up on the bad end of things like what happens if you challenge the good old boys club in SEA
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Along those lines:

    "A police officer from a Chicago suburb issued a $132 speeding ticket to a woman and was so smitten that he used motor vehicle records to locate her address and ask her out via a note left on her windshield."

    Cop Issues Ticket, Asks For Date, Gets Sued (Straightline)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    edited January 2012
    Ah of course the link to the site that tells people how to beat a ticket. You read it on the internet so it must be true.

    Yes, it's on the internet, but just cause you see it printed in a magazine makes it no less or more true. Newspapers are no more or less true.

    The fact of the matter is the website links to case law. These are known published cases, filled with complete records so you can find the case yourself at the local law library if you wish.

    These cases were already familiar to me from other sources, so I can vouch for them without having to look into the library. I'm knowledgeable enough to have written my own "fight your ticket website." So I can vouch that the one I linked to knows what he's doing, and has accurate relevant and truthful information. I wish I was web savvy enough to have thought of making a website like that years ago.

    Sometimes even case numbers are listed. But the appellate court decisions have full references. The author of that website verifies his sources, but does not always divulge personal information.

    You can also buy a lawyer's book, from NOLO PRESSES, called "How to fight your ticket" or "how to fight your ticket and win," or "how to fight your ticket in CA" If you prefer a published book to internet sources.

    I happen to own the 11th edition of "fight your ticket & win in California" by Attorney David. W. Brown.

    90% of my information comes from him and that series of books. Excellent Law for All Help books.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    I'd rather be sued than fined.

    At least when your sued the judge theoretically doesn't have a bias.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Yeah you should see all the stuff that I have on how to reduce your taxes.

    Some by lawyers, CPA's and ex-IRS agents.

    All will land you in hot water if you try to use a lot of what they suggest.

    They are just trying to squeeze nickles out of the gullible.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    And not make it personal.

    Thank you.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Oh, when the judge has the same employer as the LEO, I think there's a bias.
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