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Of course, no one with a high govt paid salary will admit that radars and cameras make mistakes, all the more reason to be able to question your accuser in a court of law. You can't question a camera, hence, it's not an acceptable means of prosecuting tickets (at least not by themselves operated/no operator).
I'm sorry, I could not let that one go by without comment.
I travel through there a few times each year. I'm glad the merge has been extended. Has the left-side ramp from WB I-71 to the Watterson been improved? That exit not having a ramp that's long enough, the curve, and the merging on the left side of what road becomes the Watterson is a nuisance.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Thank you. I didn't even read those posts.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Saw nothing annoying while on foot, but while commuting home, got behind an Enclave going about 32 in a 40, and slowing down a little every time a car passed. If higher speed arterials are scary, please stick to slow controlled residential streets. Then got behind a Caravan - a shuttle van from the local dealer, that was making random unsignaled lane changes, "driver" had a phone to his ear. Must be a brother-in-law job.
If you don't have enough driving skill to drive courteously without causing traffic congestion, maybe there's some remedial class you could take? Or just do everyone a favor and stay off the roads.
* Center your vehicle in your parking spot whenever possible. Leave some room for other vehicles. This is especially important if your vehicle isn't a compact.
* Remember to turn your lights on and use turn signals whenever appropriate.
* If you see a vehicle trying to move into your lane and it's difficult to do so because of traffic, give 'em a break and let them in ahead of you, if it's safe. Maybe give them a smile and a little wave... or if in TX the one-finger greeting aka "Hidy sign". Be sure to use your index finger!.
I do these as a matter of course. To do less would make me a hazard on the road and an @ss.
* If the car ahead of us is driving more slowly than we'd like, even if they're in the left lane, don't tailgate them or flash high beams at them multiple times. If they're going under the flow of traffic, maybe a quick flash of the high beams to wake them up. If that doesn't do it, look for the first safe opportunity to get around them and then do it.
Road conditions here force this type of behavior. Mainly because most LLCers do not know what the meaning of a flash of the highbeams, so you have to pass them on the right.
* If someone is doing something we don't like, e.g. driving slowly, but it's not unsafe... ignore it.
I do take issue with this one. Driving too slowly for road conditions is inherently unsafe and thus, risks my life. I'll not endanger my life for the 'goodwill' of another.
Yes, that whole 71/Watterson interchange has been greatly improved. SB I-71 has a longer "decel" lane (yes it is decel because it's still a 35 or 40 mph ramp), and that ramp now becomes the left lane on the Watterson. And they've doubled up that first off-ramp, so locals getting on the Watterson and taking the first exit only have to move over one lane, rather than three.
They have half-assed some "upgrades" around here (the northbound Gene Snyder at I-64 comes to mind) but 71 and the Watterson is one they got right.
I didn't say "driving too slowly for road conditions". I said "driving slowly"... as in, driving more slowly than some of us would like. For some of us here, if someone is driving 65 on a highway with a 65 limit, that's too slow.
But tell me... if someone is driving 35 in the right lane of a 4-lane road marked 40 mph, and conditions are fine for 40 mph... how is that inherently unsafe? Why not just go around them? Sometimes we forget that speed limits (except "minimums") are MAXIMUM limits. We may not like it when someone is driving slower than the posted limit, but if it's not unsafe, what's the problem?
I think the problem is that many of us are in too big of a d*** hurry, so nothing I mean NOTHING had better get in our way. Then we let the driving behavior of others get under our skin--"That #@&*!! a** h***, he's driving 5 under the limit!!"
Sure, on a busy road it's courteous to at least go the limit in the right lane to keep things moving, when safe for conditions. But when there's plenty of room to go around, what's the harm/foul?
If you want to get irked by something, I have a better target, which I saw yesterday: rubberneckers. At rush hour yesterday, the freeway I was on was crawling along for a couple of miles. I wasn't sure why because it's usually not that busy at that time of day--going the opposite direction of main traffic flow. Then up ahead, on the OTHER side of the freeway (separated with a wide grassy median and a fence), a patrol car was pulled over behind an old Chrysler. Really hard to speed at that time of day, and no signs of an accident so I figured it to be a break-down. Traffic was slow on that side of the freeway, but also on the other side (my side) because of rubberneckers. I never understood that behavior. You don't see that as much in Canada, for example. I guess folks in the USA have never seen a patrol car on the side of the road with its lights on. :P
A slow driver route that irks me is 405 just east of Seattle. It's a 60 like most highways, but numerous "drivers" like to dawdle along at 45-50, no matter the conditions - especially from Bellevue south. Even when they keep right (which is far from always), this creates issues by backing up traffic and creating more rather needless lane changes. which also creates slowness. These slowpokes should be on surface streets, or should live on the edge and kick it up to within 5mph of the limit.
Not to mention the right lane was mentioned in that hypothetical situation. Slow drivers seldom seem to understand lane discipline. The minds that can't handle the g forces of a turn at more than 5mph also can't understand traffic flow.
Rubberneckers - maybe not gawking, but when cops are present, a symptom of the fear many have of being pulled over for virtually nothing, due to relentless speed "enforcement" patrols/revenue generation schemes brought on by the defective "speed kills" mantra, perhaps.
Who said that being courteous doesn't include having slower drivers move over or adapt to faster traffic? I didn't. I think that's expected by a lot of people posting here. So I emphasized the other half of the equation. Slower drivers should move over--far right lane whenever possible. And they need to adapt to faster traffic, e.g. when merging onto a freeway, they need to get up to the speed of the right-lane traffic no matter what it might be. In turn, those who are in the right lane can be courteous and make room for the mergers when it's practical and safe to do so. I get out of the right lane whenever possible when I see a car merging. I'd just as soon put as much distance between me and the merging car as I can. No telling what they might do as they merge. So it's not just courtesy to the other driver... it's self-preservation.
Why don't the people who want to go fast find a road better suited to their desires? For some speed-burners I see tearing up the freeways, I know a nice race track about 15 miles from where I live that would be just the ticket. No need to fret about the slow-poke drivers there.
The idea of slow drivers taking side streets is nice, but... try it sometime. Try taking one of your typical drives on the 405 all on side streets instead, see how long it takes. In my town, because of bridges over rivers, it's impossible to drive some places on side streets alone. Sometimes I'll take side streets instead of the freeway--either because it's the most direct route, or because I know the freeway is so clogged the side streets will likely be faster. There's some people who I wish WOULD stay off the freeway... but because they drive in an unsafe manner (e.g. weaving around traffic at high speed, no signals, yakking on the phone while they do so), not because they drive slower than I'd like.
Justifying rubbernecking because people are afraid of LEs is really a stretch, IMO. If people are that afraid of LE, they should probably slow down... then no need to worry, no need to hit the brakes (causing a chain reaction bringing a freeway to a standstill) because they see a patrol car with its lights on on the OTHER side of the freeway, stopped, behind another car, with no possible way of getting to them.
You must have really terrible drivers where you live. Ever think of moving? Might make life much more pleasant for you.
When the person who wants to "go fast" is just wanting to see the already dumbed down lowest common denominator arbitrarily defined out of date speed limit on their speedometer, that doesn't justify a trip to the track. A master of red herrings.
I don't have to try the side streets on that annoying slow highway - I can manage the speed limit or flow of traffic anywhere. Those who can't, obviously aren't fit for such roads, and eventually become a nuisance or danger for other drivers. If time is of concern to them, they can ante up some personal effort and learn to drive at a faster pace (nobody in the developed world will say American speed limits are too fast), or have someone else do the driving, or....stick to slower roads. Surely it is slower, but that's not my problem. 90% of the drivers want to drive one speed, but everything falls apart because a timid 10% who probably shouldn't be driving at all think that 60mph is terrifying.
Your opinion is duly noted. But think about it - people tend to panic and slow whenever they see a cop - no matter if the cop is busy or across a roadway. Why is this?
You've had your share of bad driver stories too - I doubt they are any better there, unless snow driving is the context (people here can't do it). One man's pleasant surroundings might not be the same for another
The point is the same, whether you equate them or not.
The point being, that if you let someone get away with something, they will never learn better, or improve, or stop the behavior.
This is the part that, post after post, seems to be lost on andres. Driving on the freeway is about give and take. Sometimes ramp design doesn't allow the merger to be up to speed (urban ramps, cloverleaf, just plain short merges, they're out there). Sometimes the driver in the right lane doesn't have room to move left to let someone in, but it's a considerate thing to do if they do have the room.
Justifying rubbernecking because people are afraid of LEs is really a stretch, IMO. If people are that afraid of LE, they should probably slow down... then no need to worry, no need to hit the brakes (causing a chain reaction bringing a freeway to a standstill) because they see a patrol car with its lights on on the OTHER side of the freeway, stopped, behind another car, with no possible way of getting to them.
It can get pretty ridiculous at times. Just once, if the action is completely out of the lane, I'd like to see that neighboring lane actually move past the cop at 45mph (assuming the SL is 65... most move-over laws specify 20 under if you can't get over). AND I'd like to see the clear lane keep moving at the speed limit! But usually you've got 50% rubberneckers and 50% chickensh*ts... rubber chickens?
Apparently your definition of courteous driving doesn't fit most people's definition.
Usually, letting a bad driver make bad manuevers is discourteous to those behind you.
It rewards bad behavior. Negative feedback to bad driving is what is needed.
I don't see many merging lanes that don't allow even a slow car to speed up to appropriate merging speeds. If it is extremely short, that is understandable, however, what I see, is most people are trying to keep their instant gas mileage indicator over 20 while accelerating; that's unacceptable on a short merging lane where fast acceleration is required.
Remember, those crazy drivers would never have to do those things if not first for LLC's lacking awareness or attention to those around them. They would never have to change lanes or weave around traffic if people are driving correctly, and of course, with that, no need for signals.
In my opinion, it is the LLC's that are crazy for causing this sort of behavior and situation on our roadways.
Some people will use anything for an excuse for bad behavior.
No. You just want others who don't drive as fast as you do to not use the freeways their tax dollars help to build and maintain, just so it's more convenient for you. But you're not willing to try it yourself, to see how difficult it would be.
I think my post was misunderstood. I was complaining about the rubberneckers on the OTHER side of the freeway... with a wide grass median plus a fence between the two sides. Absolutely no reason for anyone on the other side of the freeway to slow down, except to gawk at the sight of a stalled old Chrysler and the patrol car behind it. Oooo, what a fascinating sight, gotta slow way down to see, maybe take a picture with the cell phone camera! :P
As for traffic on the same side of the road as the stalled car and patrol car, in some states it's the law to move over. And it's also the safe thing to do. I am amazed at how many drivers sail past a stopped vehicle on the side of the road at full speed, not changing lanes even when it's safe to do so.
And you are going to stop this bad behavior... how? By tailgating them? (About as unsafe and discourteous an action as there is on the road) By flashing your high beams at them dozens of times? (Like that will help; might blind them though, at night) By firing your machine guns? (If you happen to have an Aston Martin DB5 with special equipment)
You're more likely to make the offender angry and even more determined to inconvenience you, then get them to stop what they're doing. If a flash of high beams isn't enough to wake them up and get them to move over, it's clear they're not interested in driving courteously. So your best course of action is to put as much distance between the bad driver and yourself. If they're bad enough to camp in the left lane, what other bad driving actions might they take? I'd rather not be there to find out.
Try it on a 25-30 mph cloverleaf ramp, where the white lines come together and you have 100-200 yards while you're trying to manage the criss-cross with exiting traffic trying to get over and slowed down for their 25-30 mph ramp. Mind you, that's 200 yards to speed up AND change lanes.
I typically take such ramps at 35-40, and I don't dawdle on the merge (unless you consider anything short of WOT dawdling), and that typically has me making the lane change somewhere between 50-60mph. So if I am on the freeway approaching such a merge, and I expect most drivers to need to initiate their lane change at something more like 40-45 mph, I'm going to give them room if I can.
Recall I said earlier that in heavy traffic, when lane changes aren't easy, drivers should go with the flow of traffic. But in light traffic when lane changes are easy, what is the harm in driving at a legal speed but less than the limit, in the far right lane? Just GO AROUND THEM. And tone down the road rage. Really, is it worth getting into a rage about?
How do you know that drivers who drive slower than the limit are scared? Maybe they just like driving more slowly. Like some people like driving faster than the limit.
Whereas that line item was seperate, excluded from all the rest. Meaning that it covered everything else.
And those conditions *ARE* too slow for the road.
And it's criminal that our government forbids us drivers from mounting and using said 'poor driver elimination' devices.
The benefits would be enormous, with less congested roads and more attentive drivers.
:shades:
I see it every single day around here... in the passing lane, no less.
(Which is why, at the end of the week, my average road speed is around 35mph... with 80% of it on highways. Highways, I might add, whose posted speed limits are either 55mph or 65mph.)
So of course, when the light changes, the person in the middle (inside) makes it about halfway through the turn, then just drifts right on over into the far right lane, completely ignoring the front end of the TL that they just about took off, with my son having to brake a bit to give room. Should have nailed the horn, but that would have probably scared the dope and shot them into oncoming traffic.
turns out there was a cop in the parking lot right where we were turning, so if carnage had ensued they would have been there quick to break it up!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
That 35 mph average isn't a mystery, if your weekly travels involve any stops. Any time at zero wrecks the mph average. I see that when I take a road trip that's mostly highway, mostly 60-70 mph, with some in-town travel, then look at the average mph and, surprise, it's around 35-40 depending on ratio of city to highway travel. And if you drive during peak hours, that will kill the average mph too, if your highways are at all congested.
Why are you telling me to tone down anything? Where did I say I get road rage from the slow scaredy cats? I just go around them, unless they have caused a bottleneck (which happens). Reading comprehension is cool.
If these poor SCARED souls just "like" driving slowly, they are free to do so - on suburban arterials where the flow of traffic is more suited to their ability. End of story, no pointless whiny devils advocate garbage needed.
Oh, saw 2 no lights "drivers" tonight - Ford Ranger and a Rio - probably headed off to 405 to do a 45mph crawl home.
You see cars driving down the 405 at 15 under the limit in the left lane almost every night, and you're calling middle America "dumbed down"? Seems the other way around.
The comment about road rage was not directed at you personally, but at your comment about people getting road rage when they drive behind slow-moving vehicles. Glad to hear you just drive around the slow drivers... which is what I've been saying all along, so not sure why you are objecting so much to that suggestion.
You of course are free to drive on same suburban arterials, where the speed differential will be a lot less that what you are experiencing on the freeway--so you won't notice the slow drivers as much. Problem solved!
Weaving is actually the easy way out (lazy way out), to dealing with LLC's. It takes more patience and determination and effort to flash your lights and wait.......
On a VERY short merge lane (say 100 yards or less), WOT may indeed be required, depending on just how short a merge lane is provided. Also of particular importance, would be whether you are driving a Veyron or a Prius. The Prius may need WOT to not dawdle onto the freeway, while the Veyron might do fine at 15% throttle. Depends on conditions, the roadway, and your vehicle.
Really? What's the benefit of going slower than is necessary? In San Diego, I don't think the 5, 805, 15, or 8 are all that scenic that you would "like" or enjoy driving slowly for the sake of it.
It doesn't take much for it to create a domino exponentially increasing effect.
For my part, it's almost always at least "semi" congested in San Diego for this reason. Often, on two lane merges with other freeways, one clueless driver can block 50% of the merging lanes when changing freeways, so that's where bottlenecks occurr.
When I'm speaking of poor merging, often I mean freeway to freeway merging, not just road to freeway merging.
But there would still be people doing unnecessary weaving. More than once I've encountered a self-important [non-permissible content removed] that has "cut me off from behind" by starting to pass me on the right before I had enough space on the vehicle I was passing. Just because the car behind can physically fit through the gap, does not mean it is enough of a gap to move over without being inconsiderate.
When you state "tone down the road rage", you imply something personal. Luckily, I am able to drive something with the right gearing and torque, so when I come up behind someone dawdling, all I have to do is create a downshift, and I can shoot past at an acceleration rate like a capable motorcycle before the scared slowpoke wobbles around or brakes, or tries to speed up. I don't get mad, I laugh and shake my head in wonderment of low driving standards, people who wouldn't be on the road in true first world nations.
You don't seem to grasp this - I am not the one who is scared to drive at a reasonable speed, I am not the one causing congestion. Those who are doing so need to keep their dawdling to surface streets, or have someone else do the driving. Speed differentials? Do you have a version of this site I don't? How is this relevant? Just a month ago I was driving with speed differentials that would make you faint, and I didn't see a problem. Speed differential isn't the issue, those who won't go with the flow are the issue. Everyone else making way and sacrificing for the slow, scared, and timid is not progress nor justice nor defendable in any way.
I really wouldn't expect you to understand that POV. But consider that some folks just aren't in that big a hurry to get where they're going. They might be retired. They might not be retired but have plenty of time to get to wherever they're going. Maybe some folks are pinching pennies and trying to maximize fuel economy (for most cars, 50-55 seems to be the sweet spot).
It's just helpful wrt considerate driving to recognize not everyone has the same mentality about speed on the highway as you do, or I do for that matter.
I think everyone gets that not everyone thinks the same way about things. (traffic in this case) Truly that is why the law designates the right lane for those that want to go slow.
So you've never been to the Twin Cities, eh? About 2.5 million population, lots of urban freeways (often congested, many of poor design e.g. lots of cloverleafs). And actually fairly diverse (e.g. biggest Somali population outside of Mogadishu)... although IMO that's not relevant to a discussion re inconsiderate driving, as ANYONE of any ethnic makeup can be inconsiderate, or considerate when driving. Lots of inconsiderate Swedes and Norwegians and Germans in my town, for example.
I see lots of ranting about people driving more slowly than you do, but you've already given us the solution: just go around them. You admit you're especially adept at doing that and you do it with a laugh--so not a big deal, eh? If they are inconsiderate enough to be driving slowly in anything other than the far right lane, yeah, that's a real pain for other drivers. They need to move right. But NOT move off the freeway they pay to support--unless they're driving slower than the minimum speed. IMO it's not a good idea to drive less than the flow of traffic, no matter what lane you're in. But I'm not about to force people off the road because they don't go as fast as I'd like them to, if they're driving legally. Like you, I'll go around them. Not sure I'll laugh as I do it, but laughing is a real good idea in that situation.
No, that would not be my ideal traffic situation at all!
You don't see inconsiderate Swedes, Norwegians, Germans - you see inconsiderate Americans. Actual Germans shake their heads at how traffic works here. In my life I have spent numerous weeks driving in western Europe, and didn't experience a fraction of the crap I see on the roads here in a day. And in my not so humble opinion, a very diverse new population combined with asinine driving test standards is a huge issue. Having people who are new to the motoring experience basically fog a mirror to get a license (and I seriously suspect in some cases don't even have to do that) contributes to aggravation on the roads. Anyone can be inconsiderate, but certain factors increase the odds. Also IMO, the licensing system needs to be made much more strenuous. I have a motorcycle license, which was probably 10x harder than getting a car license. And it should probably be twice as difficult on top of that - even though it is more difficult now than in the past. Cars should be more difficult, too.
I see lots of ranting about how everyone else should dumb themselves down and embrace the scared and slow, but I have the solution - they can take the personal responsibility to expand their horizons and drive at the speed of the majority, or they can find slower roads (if they don't want to just have someone else drive altogether). Paying to support it is irrelevant, it is like me saying my taxes go to a general foreign policy fund, but I don't want to support the parasites who feed on us, so I demand we don't Doesn't work that way. Keep up with the flow, or find a different flow. When I can go out in a 50 year old car with a small displacement engine, and still end up in the left lane half time, there is a problem. Just as when I merge in said car and get held up by scaredy cats in new 7-second cars, there's a problem. Slowness, inability, inattention. Driving should be serious business, and it is not, today.
Oh yeah, laugh and give a thumbs down, which I find to be a lot more amusing and shocking than a finger or fist.
Remember, it isn't a speed differential that causes an accident, but someone getting in the way of someone else when they shouldn't. I can drive by parked traffic at 100 MPH all day long without an issue, as long as no one fails to yield to my right of way.
I'm talking at least a 100 yard left turn lane that is plenty to brake down from the speed limit of 45 MPH. Worse than the inconsiderate braking, was the lack of a signal!
I don't care if people honk back, actually, I like it, as I know they know I know they got honked at. :P
Speaking of turning issues, here's another fun one I see locally - when someone is going to get into a center turn lane or a turn only lane, they hit the brakes in the main lane of travel, slow to 10mph, and then get into the turn lane. Talented. Same people who begin turning, *then* hit the signal, no doubt.
So it's not a problem if someone is going a little under the limit in the right lane, even if other traffic wants to go faster. Just go around them. And the slower traffic stays right.
See, not a big deal at all.