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Inconsiderate Drivers (share your stories, etc.)

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Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Oh was that you? :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."I would chuckle at the assertion the roads are much safer at 65 than 55, if not for the continual stream of deadly accidents on a major road, 78. The combination trucks and cars speeding do not lead to safer roads as some of the previous posts contend. In addition, studies have found the fatalities went up for two years in a row after the speed limit was raised in NJ, before leveling off.

    I also understand why statistics show most fatalities occur 45 and under. I believe it is in the same vein as most accidents occur within 10 miles of home. That is to say, I spend 95% of my driving driving 50 and under, seems logical to me that statistically I have more of a probability of getting into an accident in the 95% vs 5% bracket. "...

    I see you fail to see the statistical significance of what you say you see as logical!!??

    I would also chuckle if your real assumption is somehow the fatality rate should be ZERO.

    If you would even look at the statistics for New Jersey...

    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/STSI/State_Info.cfm?Year=2003&State=NJ&Accessible=0

    Then according to the statistics NJ has one of the better RATES.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I see you fail to see the statistical significance of what you say you see as logical!!?? "

    No, it's called common sense. If most of my driving is done under 50, it seems logical I would have a higher probability of getting into an accident of any type under 50.

    The studies for NJ were conclusive, after the speed limit was raised fatalities went up as well. These studies were conducted by NJ and not by the NHSTA. So we can debate this round and round and round and until someone says "uncle".
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The data was supplied to NHSTA BY NEW JERSEY!!???

    While you might think it common sense, common sense is not so common. As I have said before as a response to another poster, if speed was indeed the dominant, significantor greatest % factor in the fatality rate, then by virtue of the fact that Europe in some areas have unlimited speed limits (and generally higher limits when they do have limits) should be off the charts compared to the USA figures!!! It is NOT!!!!

    Speeds of 155 mph + co exist with trucks ambling rambling 55-65 mph.

    Common sense should tell you I am not saying there is NO potential for accidents. Or that I am even saying that speed plays NO factor in accidents, etc, etc.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Away from home, I'm invincible when travelling 100's of miles from home at 90 mph. LOL.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Actually while it might sound weird, it is probably true! As an example, near my house there are not many safe places to go 90 mph safely!! :)
  • mondmond Member Posts: 79
    With all due respect PF this is the heart of the issue. It is divided by those that believe drivers should be better trained and considerate in all areas including lane discipline and those that believe if you follow the speed limits you are safe independent of virtualy any silly thing you do while driving. This is the heart of the issue and untill we get law enforcement to concentrate on writting at least as many tickets for LLC as they do for speeding, inconsiderate driving will be the norm.

    For example, the jerk weaving in and out of traffic wouldn't be doing this if everyone kept right except to pass and pulled over to allow the faster driver to pass in the left lane.
  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
    Didn't your moma tell you not to eat those!
    ;)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Occasionally a pickup truck or other high-riding vehicle like an Excursion or Suburb will get close behind because they feel they can see over the vehicle in front so it's safe to tailgate.

    Had this happen last evening. The headlights are higher so they directly blast into the (self-dimming) mirror. And the tailgating isn't safe.

    Why do they believe they can't hit you if you have a flat, transmission lockup, decide to turn on a street, business, etc.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    But we've gone off on the speed and LLC branches of the discussion before, and I'm SURE that we'll do so again... it's just time to give it a rest for the moment. Things start to heat up and that's when we can start to get into trouble.

    Not trying to ban talking about LLC's or speeders, but when we get on the order of 50 posts overnight, it's generally an indication that the heat has been turned up!

    Carry on!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    a big SUV or pickup might also just look closer and more intimidating and threatening than it really is. Now there's no doubt that many of these drivers do tailgate because they can see over the car in front. But at the same time, any vehicle that is big and blocks out a lot of the view to the rear is going to look much more threatening than a car will, as it approaches you.

    One visual trick I used to use, to make the decision of whether I thought a car was tailgating me was whether I could still see its headlights in my rearview mirror. However, with the taller rear decks on many of today's cars, that's not really a good test anymore. In most of my older cars, which had low, sloping trunks, a car would have to be practically on my bumper before the headlights disappeared from view. My Intrepid's rump can almost hide a complete small car, though, from like 50 feet away!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I went into DC with some friends, and we were on Route 50 going inbound. One of my friends who has an '04 Crown Vic that's painted kind of a police car silver-gray, was driving. He got distracted with talking and before I knew it, there were a few people passing us on the right. I asked him if he was left lane camping. He said, apologetically, as he realized it, that yeah he was. He got over, and then tried to justify his driving by saying he very rarely does that. However, there have been several times in the past that I've ridden with him, and he'll do it.

    As a passenger, it makes me extremely nervous to ride with a left lane camper. He'll always get over when I ask him to, but it really makes me question how he drives when he's alone in the car!

    I have a feeling that a lot of these left-lane campers don't do it because they have a grudge, are anal-retentive, want to play cop, etc. I think a lot of them just do it simply because they get on the highway and zone out, and don't think! I guess the end result is the same, that they're an annoyance, but I have a little more compassion for someone who does something by accident versus someone who does it intentionally!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You cannot compare driving on the Autobahn with driving down 5th ave in Manhattan. Saying speed isn't the most dominant factor is like saying people can jump out of a building and live. As long as they don't hit the pavement. And driving in Europe in general isn't like driving on the autobahn, where in general accidents are frequent and fatal.

    Accidents are few are far between on a race track as well, but when there is an accident, what are the odds, the driver and several innocent people also get killed.

    You seem to be putting forth the argument, if an exceptionally engineered, patrolled and watched road can have unlimited speed, then it should be able to work on the Garden State Parkway at the Raritan or Union tolls or even any road.

    It might work as long as people don't talk on the cell phone, read the paper, do their makeup, watch TV, or play with their navigation system. Yes, we might be able to go 100+ safely as long as we drive.

    But that will never happen in this country at this point in time because we're more worried about who's on the phone than driving safely.

    You are probably right, speed alone does not kill. But it sure decreases the amount of room one has for error and can live to tell the tale.
  • mondmond Member Posts: 79
    You are probably right, speed alone does not kill. But it sure decreases the amount of room one has for error and can live to tell the tale.

    So you want everyone to drive at 1 mph and be safe.
    Or perhaps you want to pick an arbitrary number rather than follow your logic to 1 mph.
  • black_tulipblack_tulip Member Posts: 435
    Three lane(each direction) limited access highway , the leftmost lane being a 24 hr HOV lane. Speed limit is 65mph, with the right lane moving at 62mph, and the left lane(not HOV) moving at about 80 mph. I was in the HOV lane carrying two passengers and doing about 74mph(cops usually ignore about 9+). There was nobody in front of me in the HOV lane.

    A Ford expedition started tailgating me so that I could not even see its lights(I was in my 4runner). I could not move out (left lane was packed and had a solid double white line on my side). Moreover, I did not think I had to move out. Anyway, I dropped to about 65, at which point the expedition illegally moved over to the lane on my right cutting off a vehicle and proceeded on its way.

    Question is, was that inconsiderate of me? If so, what would you have done?
  • li_sailorli_sailor Member Posts: 1,081
    Yes, one can only be safe at 1 mph. Not 1.5, or .75, but one. The logic of this is inescapable.

    Those maniacs at 2 mph are just living on borrowed time. They probably skipped the carrots and went right for the potatoes, too.

    Madmen.
  • li_sailorli_sailor Member Posts: 1,081
    Since the left non-HOV lane was going 80, I'd ahve to ask why you're in the HOV, not that you don't have the perfect right to be there.

    IMO, no one has the right to tailgate you if you are going at the speed limit. I would have done exactly what you did. If they want to do something stupid (as long as it doesn't harm me), fine with me.

    But that's one reason I dislike the HOV...no maneuvering room...if it was not HOV, I would have moved to the right and said "happy trails, better you than me" and let them go.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    People don't drive at 1mph, for the most part they drive as fast as they choose. Some choose to obey the posted limit, others choose not to. You can obey posted limits and still be a threat, ala the LLC.

    But this is not what my post is about, however, if everybody obeyed the speed limit and drove according to conditions and traffic, there would not be any issue. Now would there, my friend.
  • black_tulipblack_tulip Member Posts: 435
    I'd ahve to ask why you're in the HOV, not that you don't have the perfect right to be there.

    Good question. I was there, because for one, I had a few passengers and for another, I wanted to avoid the bumper to bumper traffic(even though fast moving) that was there in both the non hov lanes.
  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
    No form of tailgating is considerate IMO. And have you ever noticed the guy that is tailgating doesn't even let you get a quarter out of your lane before he floors the gas?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ...""Yes, one can only be safe at 1 mph. Not 1.5, or .75, but one. The logic of this is inescapable.

    Those maniacs at 2 mph are just living on borrowed time. They probably skipped the carrots and went right for the potatoes, too.

    Madmen."...

    Now this one, I am cracking up at the humor. :) (if indeed you meant it that way)
  • andyman73andyman73 Member Posts: 322
    Well, shoot, I can quite comfortably walk 3.5mph. So, does that mean I am endangering myself by not shuffling along at 1?

    Me, I like to camp in the middle lane, when there are 3 in my direction.

    I find it amuzing, when camping in the right lane, the folks that tailgate me at the speedlimit, while waiting for the LL to clear.

    Recently I spoke with a truck driver of a nationwide carrier. He was currently involved in litigation resulting from an accident. He and the company were being attacked by money hungry "I'm not responsible for my actions" people. Apparantly there was an accident or some situation, and the rig couldn't stop in time.

    And the rig ran right into what ever was in the way. The carrier was being sued, the argument being the trucker was speeding, and that's why he couldn't stop. Now here's where it gets really interesting. This carrier has speed limiters on all their trucks, set at 63mph. And they recalibrate quarterly. The opponents ended up amending their suit, dropping their case against the carrier and driver.

    So, just thought this was interesting in the light of the issue of slow trucks passing marginally slower trucks.

    And now back to the regularly scheduled ramblings.
  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
    3.5 MPH! YOU sir are an aggressive walker. Everyone should be on the look out for such Unsafe walkers. Not only are you endangering yourself but your putting thousands of other walkers at risk! You are a minis and should be removed for the sidewalks!

    MAAW

    :^)
    Sound like something you have heard before I bet.
  • gambit293gambit293 Member Posts: 406
    I think a lot of them just do it simply because they get on the highway and zone out, and don't think!

    And there's the rub. Very few of the posters on these forums, I believe, are guilty of the extreme, anti-social driving behaviors we are arguing about, regardless of which side of the debate you stand on.

    But the problem is that, to 95% of the population (here in the states), driving is an after-thought. It's simply a way to get from A to B. Driving etiquette? Huh? What's that?

    Most people simply do not CARE or THINK about driving. Those people have probably never heard of edmunds.com. They are the reason so many Tauruses and Camries are sold each year. They are the ones who see no problem whatsoever with dividing their attention between driving, talking on the phone, and eating lunch.
  • gambit293gambit293 Member Posts: 406
    I had a chance to ride around with my Dad a bit this past weekend.

    My dad is, by my standards, a pretty awful driver. He responds slowly, he's not very considerate, and he's generally inattentive.

    However... he has actually improved his driving a bit, as old as he is (around 60). Due to constant complaining by mom and us (the kids), that old dog has picked up a few new tricks. For example, he actually WILL get out of the way if he notices someone waiting behind him. Not always, of course, but it's quite an improvement from 100s of freeway miles of LLC without blinking an eye.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    it was my Granddad who tought me about left lane camping, in the first place! It wasn't anything they told us in Driver's Ed, but I remember one time, driving with my grandparents down to Florida when I was 16 and still on my provisional license, as soon as we got onto the highway the first thing I wanted to do was get all the way over to the left.

    My reasoning for it was that it would make it easier for people merging onto the highway if I wasn't over there, and I was going faster than the speed limit anyway, at what I thought was a comfortable, acceptable speed. Well, after a few people passed me on the right, Granddad asked me if I knew about passing left and keeping right. I was like "huh?!" It did makes sense though, after he explained it to me!
  • andyman73andyman73 Member Posts: 322
    Well, I suppose I could drop it down a notch to say...3.2, but only as a courtesy to the kiddies and little ol' ladies! :)

    I had to walk to school for 10.5 of 13 years, starting from Kindegarten. And you learn that the faster you walk, the warmer you are, in the winter. The last school I went to, 110 miles round trip. No walking there, thank you very much. That was in the High Desert region of SoCal.
  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
    Well put. A direct strike of the nail head.
    But how does one go about changing this apathy in America? It seems ingrained in our society. It also seems we take this attitude to more than just driving.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    Andyman made an excellent point regarding truckers in speed-governed trucks. Many of the trucks on the highway are cruising at their governed top speed.

    Of course there are variations from one truck to the next, so you often have two trucks with 1 MPH variances in top speed. To a trucker, time is money, so that 1 MPH is sufficient reason to block the left lane for many miles, in order to pass another truck with a more restrictive governor.

    james
  • mrphy42mrphy42 Member Posts: 8
    Tailgating is what drives me nuts. First off, I do not speed. I just don't. I keep my speed as close to the posted speed limit as possible. It is amazing to me that people somehow forget the meaning of the word LIMIT when driving. So of course I get angry drivers behind me, who because they feel the need to break the law, think that I should also. So they tailgate me, as if this will somehow compel me to speed up. I hate to tell them, this does nothing but make me mad.

    So, I slow down a bit. My favorite though is when I see someone speeding and weaving in and out of traffic, then they get to the stop sign or stop light, and end up waiting right next to all of the people they just HAD to pass. Sometimes this can happen at two or three intersections in a row. Speed past people, get to light, the people you passed pull up next to you. Speed to the next light, same thing. Again and again. Do they really think they are going to get where they are going THAT MUCH sooner?
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    Well, it's a lot less stressful when you can accelerate and brake at your own pace. Surprisingly so.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,336
    there are people that just stay in the left on purpose. Not to be obnoxious, but because it is easier to be there. That is, you only have to worry about cars on 1 side of you, and I think it is easier to spot them on your right, plus no worrys about mergers.

    If you are in the middle, then you have to contend with cars on both sides!

    My old boss used to drive exclusively iin the left lane, for basically these reasons. Of course, he also drove like a bat out of hell (had a Mustang GT), again on purpose, so he also wouldn't have to worry about anyone behind him! He basically reduced his scope to directly in front of him.

    In a perverse way, it made sense.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • li_sailorli_sailor Member Posts: 1,081
    It makes perfect sense, just like cutting in front of a line.

    It's just, um......inconsiderate!
  • mondmond Member Posts: 79
    The speed limit is arbitrary. For us all to be safe we should drive at 1 mph since whatever speed you are going you would always be safer if you went 1 mph slower according to the "speed kills" people. So 54 is safer than 55 and 53 is safer than 54 and so on on till 1 mph.
    What isn't arbitrary is keep right except to pass. As for the poor driving in America, all we need do is what is done in Germany. The written test shows parts of the car and the driver must know what they are. In other words they are required to understand, in a basic way, how an engine and transmission work. They are also required to take their test with a manual transmission and show they have real driving skill. The test is far more difficult than in the US, as it should be. Our corrupt politicians don't want to make the test more difficult or they might loose votes from the uneducated. They would rather go on with slogans such as "speed kills", than do something to actually save lives, so the uneducated pick up the same chant and vote for them.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Agreed. But that only happens if you're the only car on the road. An occurence rarely found unless late at night or you in the boonies.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,336
    Not really inconsiderate if you are never holding up anyone behind you, and you are moving faster than the traffic in the other lanes. Maybe not safe, but that's not the same thing.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • li_sailorli_sailor Member Posts: 1,081
    ...if you are never holding up anyone behind you...

    Sure, but I think that's the situation we're talking about! Besides, if one has an MO of "I'm stayin here no matter what", then it's just a matter of time (and not much) until you block someone.

    BTW, I think a LOT of folks do this and is probably a major reason for passing on the right.
  • mrphy42mrphy42 Member Posts: 8
    Understanding of auto mechanics does not necessarily mean a safe driver. I am a mechanic myself and manage a garage, and thus work with other mechanics, and have known many throughout the years. An understanding of gear ratios does not make a person's judgement while driving any better. I have known many people with an in depth understanding of cars that were bad and/or reckless drivers. If anything, very often, that kind of understanding is even capable of making people overly confident in their driving skills. I don't mean it always does before people try to act like I said it turns everyone into an overly confident jerk on the road.
  • li_sailorli_sailor Member Posts: 1,081
    For us all to be safe we should drive at 1 mph...

    What you seem to not understand is that hardly anyone takes the "safest" method in all cases. It's always a compromise. So, your conclusion that "recognizing that something is less safe precludes it as a course of action" is without merit.

    They would rather go on with slogans such as "speed kills", than do something to actually save lives...

    There are plenty of bad politicians, but this is a red herring.

    Speeding does increase risk, this is reality. And vehicle safety standards and improved road maintenance have resulted in a far safer environment (as the statistics prove) in recent years. All this despite some elements that have made things worse, like the proliferation of SUVs.

    Ooops. I meant elephants. Not SUVs. The proliferation of elephants.
  • mrphy42mrphy42 Member Posts: 8
    Do you guys in all honesty believe that the risk of driving at 75 mph is exactly the same as driving at 40 mph? The fact is, the higher the speed, the higher the risk. Trust me, and accident at 20 mph does not cause the damage that the same accident would cause at 75. Not even close.
  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
    I hate tailgaters also. I have even turned my mirror down so I do not have to look at the Navigator grill in my rear window. A few months ago I was riding with my daughter on I-55. she was in the right lane and driving the speed limit which is 70 here on rural interstates. At some point she mentioned an SUV flying up on her. well when the thing never passes us I asked what happened. She said "its right on my a** not passing". I assumed there was traffic coming and as soon as it went by the SUV would go around. well minutes passed and no traffic passed on our left. My daughter was getting upset at this point. I told her just to drop to about 5mph below the speed limit and they would go around. Well 5 became 10 and at that point I turned to look at the SUV. A dark red explorer with new Mexico plates. It was just a few feet off her back bumper. At that point I pulled out my cell phone and when I did the SUV moved over into the other lane and slowly went around us. As the it passed the lady in the passenger seat glared at us, turning in her seat even as they had cleared our car. You can imagine my daughters fright and anger all at the same time. We kept our slow pace and let the SUV disappear into the distance. I had fears of Gun shots ringing out. From living in St. Louis I know its best not to make eye contact with a road rage suspect. It was a odd thing to have happen way out in the middle of no where.

    As for the moving from lane to lane in traffic. Here in our community we have the problem of slow drivers. they will give your reasoning that you are just going to get a red light so why drive 45 between the lights. The reason here to drive 45 is that the lights are set on a timer. If you drive 45 and reach that speed quickly you can stream for about six miles thru lights and get all of them green. When slow driver enter the picture you are going to get stuck at every red light. There are even signs posted by the city. Traffic signals timed to X miles per hour. Still dawdlers cause one to make your trip across town a long stop and go affair.
  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
    I doubt any of us here think that higher speeds do not increase the risk of DEATH. What increases a risk of an wrecks at higher speeds is human error and lack of skill. The mind set that speed alone is the cause of accidents seems tied to people that do not want to learn how to control a vehicle at those speeds and in general does not want to be responsible for their lack of skill. It is too easy to point at speed as the cause instead of the persons lack of ability. We are all smart enough to know that autos and trucks are not designed to protect passenger over a certain speed. After X miles an hour you might as well kiss your you know what good bye if your in a wreck. Head on at 55 or 75 there isn't going to be much left of anything smaller than a semi.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    Yeah, I used to drive in the left lane because it was easier (only had to look at one side, fewer cars merging in, etc). No one told me that it was a passing lane, or that passing on the right was a bad thing, or that there was such a concept as "lane discipline."

    Most people don't know. Sure the handbook mentions something about "slower traffic keep right" but since the handbook says never go exceed the speed limit, and the instructor doesn't feel like he can openly say "yeah everyone goes 5-10 over", we all assumed that "slower traffic keep right" referred to trucks going way under the limit. You have to hang out a lot in forums like this to start believing that everyone was taught about leaving the left lane open.
  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
    Your right, totally. As I have said before. America, One nation, under - educated. We do not like being told what to do. We take traffic laws as "if we feel like it" rules. When one gets a ticket most people's thoughts are not that they should change their habits but that "Damn, I got caught, what can I do not to get caught".
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    In other words keep right except to pass and if you are passing a row of cars and a faster driver is approaching behind you, pull over asap to let them pass and then return to the left lane to continue your passing

    I was fine up to here and I'll give you a fer'instance. I'm using the passing lane to pass a row of cars 70 in 60 zone. WRX comes up on my tail at 80 wanting me to move over, but I haven't finished my passing. An EVO comes up on the WRX at 90 wanting the WRX to move over.

    Bottom line, I finish my passing, I'm under no obligation to move over for the person who decides they want to go the fastest. Note I said passing not left, lane camping. I happily move over when I finished my passing maneuver.

    On another topic, bringing up the Autobahn is a waste of time, in this country it's so bad, people can barely finish their lunch while driving what with all of the yakking on the cell phone. Until this changes and our road system is built like the Autobahn and the American driver is willing to put away lunch, the cell phone, the booze, and drive the car speed limits and accident rates will stay where they are.
  • mrphy42mrphy42 Member Posts: 8
    The problem with that mentality "I can drive at those speeds because I have the skill and know how" is precisely one of the factors in high speed traffic accidents. I have heard it time and again, next thing you know that guy with all the "skill" is dead because a truck blew a tire on the freeway losing control. The guy with all the skill wasn't able to stop or maneuver at those speeds because he was going too close and too fast.

    Yes, at certain speeds in a wreck you are dead. Also at certain speeds you increase the likelihood of losing control in an unforeseen situation. The faster you are going, the less reaction time you are allowed. It is simple fact. You go at high speeds, weaving through traffic, and all the skill in the world wont save you if the math involving velocity and mass are against you. Still, you can increase your chances by cutting back on speed.

    This is not complex stuff. Sure, you may have skill, but that doesn't mean you can change the laws of physics. Skilled confident people die on our freeways every day in accidents that can be avoided where speed played a roll.
  • mrphy42mrphy42 Member Posts: 8
    Regardless of if you are "skilled" and feel you can drive fast safely, when did the speed limit become the law you don’t care if you break? Regardless of your feelings on the subject it is still the law.

    It amazes me that people get so mad when they get a ticket for speeding. If you were shoplifting would you still think the cop was the bad guy? Why is it you are willing to break this law and not others?
  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
    The skilled person would not be close enough to another vehicle. They give themselves room to avoid something like that. Skilled drivers never tailgate or allow themselves to be caught in a pack of cars. You adjust your speed according to traffic.
  • mrphy42mrphy42 Member Posts: 8
    For that to be true would mean that you only drive with the flow of traffic. If that is true then you are only driving at high speeds on empty roads. Still there is no such thing as a time with no dangers. If the roads are that dead it is because it is usually night time meaning your vision is impaired and if there is something in the road you have less time to react, even more so than in the daytime. The fact is that speed still plays a roll in danger and risk.

    That being said, you are still ignoring and breaking the law regardless.
  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
    The guy you see cutting and darting just missing the car he passes is not a skilled driver. He is driving fast just because he can. I watch car loads of teenagers race for the fast food places on their hour lunch from the high school that is about two miles from my house. Unless the teen has been to a racing school I do not understand the parent that lets their 16 year old have a WRX. The mass majority of Americans are not skilled drivers. When you spend 1000 dollars and 10, eight hour days behind the wheel in a driving class then I will say you are skilled
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