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Sigh. I give up.
At least we know that the laws of physics are suspended on the autobahn ;-)
Hey li sailor, if we traveled at 600 mph and there were no collisions, there would be no fatalities. Therefore it is the collision that kills, not speed. Do you grasp this yet? That is why the autobahn has a lower fatality rate than US highways. That is why when we raised the speed limit from 55 the fatality rate decreased. That is why by traveling at approximately the same speed we cause bunching of cars which gives us more to collide into. That is why by keeping right except to pass and pulling over from the left lane when you see a faster vehicle approaching from behind is both considerate and life saving.
The above statement is why we need to reduce the natural bunching that occurs when vehicles travel at approximately the same speed. If you keep right except to pass, and get out of the left lane when a faster vehicle is approaching, you will significantly reduce the bunching created by speed limits.
Keeping right except to pass and getting out of the left lane when a faster vehicle is approaching, is the courteous thing to do benderofbows. The fact that it will save lives is merely an added benefit.
Nobody thinks of themselves as a dangerous driver, especially the guy with the big powerful car or the sports car that's impervious to getting 'broke.'
> right except to pass and getting out of the left lane when a faster vehicle is approaching,
Watched traffic during 60 mile trip to Cincinnati and back for an event last evening. Ninety percent of the left-laners who were going substantially faster than the nominal speed NEVER moved to the center lane; they just dominated that left lane that everyone else should get out of as soon as they were within hundreds of yards!!! Saw many tens dominate the vehicles in front of them. Saw FEW use the middle lane except to pass. Saw four LLCs who should have gotten over.
Saw 5 dangerous drivers cutting in and out to get 200 yards ahead over a mile or two.
LLDers and dangerous speeders who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
Courtesy goes both ways.
The more the speed differential above the average speed on multiple lane roads the more dangerous the driving and more likely to cause an accident with all the anxiety from not being able to just blast on through the 5 pm traffic because those other, lesser, drivers just insist on using all 3 or 4 or 5 lanes!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
On one hand you can't say speed has no effect on accident rate...sic and the other the number of fatalaties have been increasing steadily, but then it is countered: "it's okay it's a normalized number."
Oh well, if anything I think we can agree on the following:
- keep right except to pass
- don't drink and drive
- drive courteously
- when you drive a car, drive a car and don't eat your lunch and talk on the cell phone at the same time
- percentages of fatalities went down
- absolute numbers of fatalities went up
- the autobahn is a great place to get into an accident because it has a dedicated helicopter fleet
- people have different interpertations of numbers
- lies, damn lies and statistics
"That is why you look at percentages to _hypothesize_ the effect of any proposed solution," and you analyze other factors that have affected the past data such as changes in the vehicles, airbags, side airbags, stability assists, gasoline prices, larger and heavier vehicles, and whatever improvements were made to the vehicles in the experiment which is NOT a controlled experiment.
Only then is a hypothesis as to causes of changes in statis
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Mond. There are a number of studies where a value in a control variable goes up but the resultant target/study number goes down. Crime rate in NY for example. Increasing population/tourism, decreasing absolute number of crimes.
Increasing numbers of cars, driving faster and more miles, yielding increasing numbers of fatalities. Seems like a direct correlation to me. We're not doing a very good job here.
E.g., antilock brakes helping drivers get slowed down without a skid taking them into ??? impact with their wheels locked up. The antilock brakes have helped me a few occasions make a quick stop from low and high speeds and keep directional control. The Stabilitrak on the newer car I haven't been unlucky enough to test.
Improved tires and larger tires on cars is another change that has helped.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The death rate on the no speed limit autobahn has been within plus or minus 10% even when our speed limit was 55 mph. The fact is you refuse to drop the mindless mantra "speed kills" no matter how the evidence is presented. Please remember to be courteous by keeping right except to pass.
Do you have anything other than the "autobahn" mantra to add to the discussion?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Why Don't You?
;-)
Some of it is just plain ole normal human behavior.
Some of it is truly lack of controlling expectations. For example if by not doing a very good job we expect ZERO deaths and accidents and say NO dollar loss. I would submit you have a issue with expectation.
Some or a lot of it is actually by design!!!
Second of all I didn't say crime rate, I said death rate. As the population increases the overall death rate will increase. I see you want to hold on to your beliefs even to the point of completely changing what people post. Holding on to beliefs to the point of distorting the facts in their minds is a major reason why discourteous drivers refuse to change their ways.
The fact remains that it is discourteous NOT to move from the left lane no matter what speed. Even if I'm driving 100 mph, it would be wrong for me to NOT move over for the car going 110. I have no real reason to impede that person's travel.
It IS wrong for that person to tailgate or any other aggressive behavior but I still should get out of the way as a common courtesy. That is where the comparisons to the Autobahn come to play. They have that courtesy.
If we discuss this without going straight to stupid and making comparisons that were not intended, we would see that the Autobahn DOES prove that speed in itself does not kill. We all know IF your wheels fall off your car or your brakes fail, you have a greater probability to die at 100 mph than 75. But those situations don't happen all that frequently on well maintained cars. If it did, cars would be flying off the road at an alarming rate. Even at our limited speeds.
The fact is our interstates system could support 100 mph travel in many areas of the country. I seriously doubt it's all in the "design" of the road that enables someone to go 200mph on the "bahn". Not everywhere of course, but there are broad areas of this country where people regularly approach 100mph travel.
The fact is our speed limits are artificially low to make it safer for those that don't have the capability to either control their car at those speeds or are considerate enough to allow others that share that road to do so. Not to mention the "speed tax".
I've driven up north and encountered one of those craters that they call "pot holes". While I can understand why they would fear higher speed limits like the plague with roads like that, I have also driven I-5 in California from LA to San Fran. I can understand that there are areas where 70mph is not only too slow from a efficiency standpoint, but it's also a safety issue. I-5 is long, straight, and boring.
My point exactly. If the left lane hogs pulled over when they saw a more rapidly approaching vehicle you wouldn't have seen 5 drivers cutting in and out of traffic. You do not see this weaving in and out on European roads where there is lane discipline.
I would agree, this is probably more than evident in the LLCing thought processes'.
All you can really do is to try to id them and go around them at the first safe opportunity.
When we show you that the death rate on US highways decreased when the speed limit went up, you have an excuse as to why your mind won't accept it.
When we use the autobahn as an example your mind creates another excuse why not to accept it.
Many of the US highways are equal to or superior to the autobahn that I have experienced. In addition they do not use salt or calcium chloride in Germany when there is snow or ice on the road so under those conditions the autobahn is more dangerous than US interstates.
Finally, why won't you simply agree that the experiment of having police strictly enforce keep right except to pass is valid given the logic behind it and the evidence from the autobahn.
My point exactly. If the left lane hogs pulled over when they saw a more rapidly approaching vehicle you wouldn't have seen 5 drivers cutting in and out of traffic. You do not see this weaving in and out on European roads where there is lane discipline"
I would also agree!! It is amazing that folks REFUSE to see the real cause of why 5 folks went around the LLC'er.
It's not quite so simple to say that youshould move right as soon as you pass.
If the middle lane has car after car going 60 in a 65, with barely enough room to move back in before the next one, it is unreasonable (and inconsiderate) to expect you to move over immediately.
Esp if there is fairly heavy traffic behind the one coming up behind you.
Say you are doing 65-70 in the left, passing those 60's in the middle. A string of cars come up beind you, doing 75-80. There is a string of 60's in the middle, then a gap, up ahead.
I will not move over until I get to the gap. If you immediately move right in this situation, it might be 5 minutes before you can get back into the left.
If I was doing 60 in the left and the middle was doing 55 (in a 65), then I would move right over.
BTW, with no speed limit, this would go out the window and I can see getting stuck to the right as cars go whizzing by at 130 in the left, unless traffic was very light.
A LLC'er is someone who does not move over when there is otherwise a light flow of traffic. Speeding in congested areas is dangerous. No one can disagree there. But on when there are three cars on one 1/2 mile stretch of highway and two of them are riding side by side, there is a problem there.
If there were no speed limit, the flow of traffic would dictate the speed limit. Actually that happens here in the U.S. too.
"BTW, with no speed limit, this would go out the window and I can see getting stuck to the right as cars go whizzing by at 130 in the left, unless traffic was very light. "
This is REAL LANE discipline!
I used NYC as an example. I don't believe that happened during the Guliani administration.
I keep asking about non-fatal accidents or severe trauma accidents on the Autobahn. Any statistics on the those? It would be interesting to compare them to the NY Thruway. I'm thinking the same people who have access to fatalities info on the autobahn have access to non-fatality info as well.
But on when there are three cars on one 1/2 mile stretch of highway and two of them are riding side by side, there is a problem there.
No question about that. Candidate for road rage if they don't respond.
If there were no speed limit, the flow of traffic would dictate the speed limit.
Generally speaking, that's true...but I'm sure that most folks would not want to be doing 130. I can see a 'tyranny of lead-footers' thing happening...unless traffic was light and/or there are enough (3-4) lanes.
IMO (and I've never driven on the autobahn or any other 'no speed limit' road), one problem is there is then an 'entitlement' to go really fast.
Yes, of the whips and chains sort. Some may like it.
At least here in Ohio, traffic is very rarely "light" anymore. Two cars in 1/2 mile? Maybe at 3AM on Sunday moring. Other times you often have these situations sailor described. Yet the LLVIPS who live here, and there are lots of them, think they "need" to have the left lane clear so they can go 80+, and that anyone else should move over.
As for the ones who try to twist everything back like adolescent debaters on a high school team, I'll keep driving carefully at near the speed of those surrounding me. I'll use the left lane when I'm passing. I'll watch for those LLVIPs (good term there) and observe if they're keeping right except to pass and determine on their law-abiding rating how quickly I need to clear their lane for speeding beyond the nominal traffic speed.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Empty space, 2-4 second times between, space cushions" etc. are all indicators of the same thing/s. Likewise, slower traffic keep right keep right except to pass is really an important technique to make sure there is empty space and time.
A while back I asked as a general question how long does it take to pass given freeway speeds?
The bottom line is multiply that time by however many cars are LLCing and you get an idea of the
1 delay
2 number of cars involved in an accident should one make a mistake, brake for a real emergency, brake check to exercise ones passive aggressive streak.
Lateral bunching is another big no no! One of the reason drag racing on the street is illegal is lateral bunching. Either of those two to three lane street dragster warriors makes a mistake and there is NO room for maneuver let alone error!!???
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Yes, that's exactly my point, and I do the NYC to Kingston route on the TW coupla timea a month and have this happen all the time.
The PIP is the same way. At rush hour, you keep up, or people will run you right off the road.
Nothing like 2 lines of B to B traffic, on a skinny little scenic parkway with no shoulders, doing 80 MPH, to get your blood pumping in the morning.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Sorry, but I am not obligated to slow myself down just because I am not willing to risk a speeding ticket. If I am going 75 in a 65 and I'm still passing a series of cars in the right lane doing 60-65, I ain't penalizing myself to let someone exceeding the speed limit by. Expecting me to do so is not reasonable and is inconsiderate. And I won't tolerate someone tailgating me in that situation, either.
As soon as I get a gap that will let me move over but maintain my speed, I will move over. In that case, I should be able to get right back in the LL after the super speeder (or 2) goes by.
...you are causing significant bunching of cars...
Sorry, it's up those following to adjust their speed in this case.
And it's not 5 minutes of 85ers going by. If I were to move right behind a 60er, I would not be able to get back in to cars going the speed I was before for a while.
"Bunching" at 10 mph over the speed limit is better termed "tailgating". No one is going to get surprised at this "slower" speed and plow into them.
Suddenly stopped traffic is more likely the most "accident waiting for a place to happen" situation.
The bottom line is that not all vehicles that have a faster vehicle come up behind are LLCers.
Is a big problem on some roads, particularly 2 laners (like much of the NY Thruway). basically, if you end up in the right lane (say to let the LLVIP tailgating you get by), it could be a long time before there is a break in traffic to let you out again. You almost have to stay in the left lane if you don't want to end up stuck behind a semi.
Sorry, but I am not obligated to slow myself down just because I am not willing to risk a speeding ticket. If I am going 75 in a 65 and I'm still passing a series of cars in the right lane doing 60-65, I ain't penalizing myself to let someone exceeding the speed limit by. >If you will be stuck in the right lane for a while then there must be a string of cars traveling at more than 76 that you have backed up. Get out of the way and let them through or accelerate and and then get out of the way. But you are clearly stating that you are the inconsiderate road hog backing up a long line of traffic in the left lane for you own personal convenience.
Expecting me to do so is not reasonable and is inconsiderate. > It is reasonable for the reason stated above. You are being inconsiderate to a long line of cars and by causing bunching putting everyone at greater risk for a collision.
And I won't tolerate someone tailgating me in that situation, either. > If you don't like the tailgating pull over because, as you have defined I have a long line of cars behind me. What makes your ego so big that you think you have a right to block a long line of cars in the left lane. That is the definition of inconsiderate on the road.
Then we'd have a stalemate, no?
as you have defined I have a long line of cars behind me.
And one in front, as well. Go back and read what I said about what speeds everyone was going, I think you missed it.
...you think you have a right to block a long line of cars in the left lane.
Strictly speaking, theoretically, everyone is blocking everyone else behind them. The only question is what right some have to go the speed they are going and under what circumstances it is reasonable to move over.
To say that one should always move over to let anyone, not matter what the situation, pass, is a gross oversimplification.
Problem is, the traffic line is solid, so once you get stuck in the slow lane, you can't get out to re-join the solid line in the left lane. In that case, what ends up happening is a slow poke in the right lane backs up traffic, creating a gap ahead of them, which is quickly filled in by people cutting over from the left lane to try and pass, and then butt back in to the left lane when they catch up to traffic in the right.
I try to stay in the right as much as possible, but it works better when traffic is light enough that you can easily move left to pass when you need to. When you can't, you either stay left (at the flow of traffic speed), or stay right at whatever speed you can manage with the trucks.
Really, this is primarily a problem on 2 line highways like the NJT. The dynamics are different on 3+ line superslabs.
Only the front guy in the left lane (the one with lots of open space ahead of him) is the LLC. The people behind are the victims!
And to me, one of the most dangerous things is when people try to cut over to the right lane to squirt through a small gap to pass the LLC. They always end up rushing up on slower traffic, and cutting someone off to get back in the left lane.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
See how the "expert" "accurate" "top gun wannabe"
continues to try to make others feel discourteous when they don't give in and get out of the way?
When the act of road rage is excused by blaming another driver, where is the individual responsibility on the part of the "Rager"? Just because another driver exhausts your patience, it is still your personal decision when reacting adversly and dangerously among others. What you do is always your responsiblity.
Not that difficult, but I have found that people just hate being passed. I don't understand the mental dynamics of it all, but people really resent it. If someone wants to go past me, and *god forbid* I have to get over to let them continue so be it.
Most of the bad bunching and slow downs I see is because some nimrod (regardless of whatever the speed my happen to be) is pacing the car next to them. Whether it is below, at, or above the speed limit, this should be avoided. Not sure why people do that for miles and miles.
I don't think anyone here is pacing cars next to them, and I also don't think anybody is road raging on someone who is passing slower than they'd like.
It takes consideration on both sides.
Why would you think I would disagree with this?
Where did you see the statement I made that "all vehicles that have a faster vehicle come up behind are LLCers"?
I didn't write it!
YOU assert that I wrote it or mean it! NOT TRUE!!
"Bunching" at 10 mph over the speed limit is better termed "tailgating". No one is going to get surprised at this "slower" speed and plow into them."
Again not necessarily, if one is following the 2-3 second follow distance this still can be bunching. Tailgating is pretty obviously, much less than this. The concept is pretty easy: more space is better.
A mid-90's Deville with an amputated passenger side mirror enters the highway and heads straight for the left lane. Over these 7 miles (my speed is constant), I overtook it at least three times. Finally, I got curious and tried to peek inside through the window - no cars around me. Their window goes down and I see a pudgy white hand saluting me with a finger.
Curious what the driver and the passenger were thinking... may be they would present a different story on these forums.
No it isn't. The fact is it is practiced by knowledgeable drivers all over the world. It is certainly practiced on the autobahn where there is no speed limit and the death rate is currently lower than the US. It is called lane discipline practiced by disciplined drivers with disciplined minds. You just want to be the inconsiderate driver that sits in the left lane and causes the US death rate with slow drivers to be higher than the death rate in Germany with drivers traveling at much higher speeds.
continues to try to make others feel discourteous when they don't give in and get out of the way?
It is discourteous and DANGEROUS. All over the world, to educated drivers, flashing lights mean pull over because I'm coming through. And all over the world drivers pull over without a second thought because they are educated in driving and courteous. In America, many people think ignorance is a birth right protected by rage.
Very well said seminole. Many times I have passed cars that then speed up. Hey, if you want to drive at a higher speed why weren't you doing so all along. There is an insanity on the road from people that get offended if you pass them that I just don't comprehend.
Correct. They become LLCers when they see the faster vehicle coming up behind them but don't pull over.
Now we've all been insulted if we don't agree with a point of view: we're all uneducated.
>Many times I have passed cars that then speed up.
On a serious note, I think they have something to follow to pace alongside or behind, so they speed up. Too some people don't like being out front for the laser gun, they'd rather have someone else out front to get the radar reading or laser reading taken on them.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No, he specifically was referring to LLC'ers!!?? I am trusting that now the shoe doesn't fit?
A comment on your serious note. There are a host of times when you either do not want nor can't maintain a so called nirvana "constant speed". Again the utility of, " keep right except to pass slower traffic keep right" for example: if I signal for the #2 lane and change lanes into it, if the following car wants, needs, etc. to go faster than the pace I have chosen...GUESS WHAT?? the #1 passing lane is devoid of me: the car in front!!