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However, in CA on a two lane each way highway, I was going in the same direction of an LLC'er who seem to take delight in keeping those who wanted to pass behind him. It was fairly evident what his schtick was. So I basically stayed in the right lane. (except to pass) Some cars behind and a mile or mile and half behind me, I observed a CA Highway Patrol making his way up. When he came within "kill range" I made sure to be out of his way so he could draw a bead on the some cars ahead, LLCer in front. The CHP flipped past me, (I was going 80 mph in a 65 mph area) shot his radar gun and a quarter mile to a half mile or so down the road after I had lost sight of him, had the LLC'er off to the RIGHT hand side of the road. Sometimes there is justice.
..."The city's rate of pedestrian deaths and injuries, 124.1 per 100,000 residents, is nearly triple that of second-place Los Angeles."...
But some it can't be helped. It's a much more pedestrian city than LA and while it's impossible to go fast inside the city, it's oh so easy to get lost and be looking for street signs at odd angles, instead of where you're going.
I think the a police car in the left lane will cause each driver to move over as they see the car behind them. That's usually what happens. When he gets to the last car that's the one that gets the ticket. Frankly, if the police get behind a car that doesn't pull over either through being inattentive or deciding they don't need to a ticket is in order for them even though they may not be the cause of this particular blockade.
I know that many times I caused the car in front of me to move up a bit so the left lane hogs move over only to discover that when there is no one in front of them they just sit in the left lane at a bit higher than the limit. It's simple. If you want to stop the tailgating move over whenever you see someone approaching at a higher rate of speed in the left lane.
Here are some facts I noted:
The police strictly enforce rules designed to make people pay attention when they drive, the most important of which is lane discipline. No matter what speed you are going, you must keep right except to pass, no exceptions. Before and during your pass you are expected to watch for faster cars which may be approaching. You must pass with urgency, and at no time may you linger in the left lane, even for a second.
There are absolutely no speed limits on more than half of the Autobahn (thousands of miles). Most traffic travels around 110 mph. Sometimes traffic flows at 130 or 140. Occasionally, faster cars come through. This is not dangerous because of the aforementioned lane discipline.
The system works! The rate of fatalities on the German Autobahn is 0.74 per 100 million miles traveled, compared to 0.86 for the American Interstate system.
Obviously, creating and enforcing speed limits is not the best answer to creating a safer and more efficient roadway system.
But again, the Autobahn does not exist in the US. Talking about it is pointless. The #1 thing that could reduce accidents is driver discipline. This includes putting the lunch and cell phone away and driving as it one shared the road instead of driving as if one owned the road. Non-enforcement is also rampant amongst most highways and by-ways. In addition, there are very few limited access turnpikes on the east/west coast and there are far fewer cars on the Autobahn than the total continental US. In addition, what is the truck traffic per 100 million miles on the Autobahn. Let's compare that to the US as well. How many highways in the US ban truck traffic. My guess is not a whole lot.
A better comparision would be the Autobahn against the New York Thruway or New Jersey Turnpike.
Perhaps the laws of physics as advocated by KShapiro operate differently in Europe??
Perhaps you did not closely read (or attempt to truly comprehend) the statistics I posted. The Autobahn has less Fatalities per 100 million miles traveled. It is safer.
But again, the Autobahn does not exist in the US. Talking about it is pointless. The #1 thing that could reduce accidents is driver discipline.
My point is not that the Autobahn should exist in the US. My point is that the principles which make the Autobahn safer than our highways should be put in place here to make our roads safer as well. This includes enforcing lane discipline more strictly than speeding. I agree with you that people need to put the lunches and cell phones away. But while those are temporary distractions, a lack of lane discipline as described in my previous post is a constant safety threat due to the bunching it causes.
I think you have some preconceived notions about the Autobahn. First, it is not "limited access." Second, it gets fairly crowded in many places, but cars stick to the lanes of traffic which are going the speeds they want to go. Finally, there are trucks on the Autobahn. I saw many of them in the clips on the TV show.
Furthermore, you (and others here) seem to be implying that the higher speed is actually a factor that lowers the death rate.
I would interested in what you are supposing is the direct cause of this?
Does the higher speed reduce errors? Increase stability? Improve the results of a collision with either another vehicle or object? Improve sobriety? Quicken reaction times? Optimize hand/eye coordination? Soup up one's judgement? Repel other vehicles?
What exactly is this supposed mechanism that improves safety (or counteracts physics)?
What a wonderful concept. Too bad many LLDs don't follow that principle. I've commented before that's how I determine a dominator vs someone in a hurry willing to risk the OSP's speed checks.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
..."Furthermore, you (and others here) seem to be implying that the higher speed is actually a factor that lowers the death rate."...
Par for the course, but a total mischaracterization.
Give the death statistics vs accidents occuring about 50 mph in both countries. Including slower accidents in the data is meaningless especially when you're trying to pimp the autobahn as the driving model for US.
BTW; What's the data for accidents in Germany NOT on the autobahn???
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My take is the 212 mph crowd can and do use the same roads as the 55 mph crowd. Europe has already presented a model on how it is currently done.
My take in the USA is a model in how you can: talk on the cellphone, be on the internet, shave, put on makeup, change your clothes, drink beer, eat, drink, watch DVD's, listen to radios, read a navigations system, read a book, beat your kids in the back seat, go 45 mph in the passing lane, wax about how you as a driver have rights to be in any damn place one wants, cause an accident and then successfully sue the REAL victim. You can even be commode hugging drunk and be back on the road again after a night in the drunk tank, Don't you all just LOVE the USA?
One thing that probably needs to be said (again) is just because there is no speed limit or there is a higher speed limit like in the USA of 65 mph does that mean you have to go that fast. You can pretty much go whatever speed you want and need to. However we are talking lane discipline under the principle of keep right except to pass, slower traffic keep right.
The real nexus as far as I am concern is what can be learned and applied in either situation.
I am sure the Europeans look at what is happening on USA roads and literally are in UTTER disbelief that MORE fatatlities do not happen.
The slow speed advocates are probably looking at the autoban in utter disbelief that MORE fatalities do not happen.
He explained that the DEATH rate is lower on the autobahn than on US interstates. This proves my point that the "speed kills" mantra makes people loose rational thought and, obviously, reading comprehension.
The slow speed advocates want to completely and utterly ignore your quote. Lane discipline is indeed a tool for lowering accident rates, letting traffic through, not be blocked, etc, etc.
Of course not. I'm not claiming the connection, you are.
...if we follow your argument, you are arguing that the system wih HIGH SPEED should have a fatality rate FAR higher than the system...
All else being equal, ruking1. All else being equal. Without understanding what that means, any attempt at analysis will fail.
...a total mischaracterization.
Oh, ok, so you now agree that the lack of speed limits is not a factor in the fatality rate on the Autobahn.
Of course, rear ending a parked semi at 70 will kill you just as fast as it will at 110.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Breaking news... more people have died in this country of natural causes in 2004 than in 1804!
The autobahn is not the US expressways. Why don't some get it...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The autobahn is not the US expressways. Why don't some get it... "
Given your logic, you probably need to question why we need the same in this country especially when slow speed driving is so safe?
The only one making the claim that the autobahn should be the same as the USA's is YOU.
The issues been primarily about:
1 unlimited speed vs 65 mph,
2. lane dicipline as it relates to keep right except to pass and slower traffic keep right.
3. Europe has been cited as a MODEL. with a similar fatality rate given higher speeds vs the model of the USA with 65 mph and a same to slightly better fatality rate.
4. USA has been cited as a MODEL with a similar fatality rate given lower speeds or 65 mph.
I haven't heard anyone questioning any particular need for accident assistance in the US. Nor any characterization of "how safe" it is in the US.
The only one making the claim that the autobahn should be the same as the USA's is YOU.
On the contrary. This entire subthread was created by you...when you claimed, as counterpoint to the notion that higher speed means higher risk, that the autobahn (and Euro drivng in general) was safer, and therefore disproved that notion.
LLCing has been cited here as a primary example of inconsiderate driving. It has further been cited as a factor in reduced safety. There have been specious attempts to connect this with speeding, as if reducing LLCng would obviate the need for speed limits, from a safety perspective. I think this conclusion is without merit.
A high % of highway fatalities are from road rage and from rear end collisions (coming upon slowed traffic). Regardless of the primary cause of this (inattentiveness, etc.), the higher the speed, the higher the risk in these situations.
I understand the Autobahn gets crowded, but when it does the speed is throttled down. Furthermore as I understand from people who have driven the autobahn, it is limited access where the speed is unlimited.
Do the trucks stay in the right lane at 60? I would think that would cause all sorts of issue when the truck traffic is heavy.
I have not driven the autobahn so I don't know. But I can guarantee in the stretches that have unlimited speeds, there is not the congestion of the NJ turnpike at the GW bridge.
Furthmore, should one even try to compare US and Europe, the comparison should be apples to apples. An appropriate comparison is the accident vs death rate in Berlin vs Manhattan. While it is true people can drive at high speed and not get killed, (look at a race trace eg), lane discipline is only variable in the equation. In addition, it is my observation that people driving at 155 might be less cavalier about the attitude on the road than people driving at 70. That alone could explain a lot.
All else being equal, if people put away the distractions, drove courteously, stopped drinking and driving and devoted 100% of their attention to driving, accidents and fatalities would take a nosedive.
Or is this an indirect way of saying the increase risk of higher speed driving doesn't not necessarily convert to a high speed fatatality?
Again my position is clear despite your efforts to mis represent. If your theory that higher speed converts to higher fatality rates is true, by virtual of the fact Europe has up to unlimited speed limits then you would expect the RATES to be significantly higher than in the USA: THEY ARE NOT!!!!!
I trust most of the people on this board who speed, even excessively, but I do NOT trust average Joe Cellphone and Mary SUV out there. If the limit were raised to say 85, then most people would go that fast, even those who lack the skills or the correct vehicle for that speed.
Somebody many posts ago, mentioned the idea of having a special high-speed license with special training and requirements. I think that idea has merit.
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Agreed!
Of course, this whole discussion began about LLCs, which does not fall under driving courteously.
And by the way, I've driven on the autobahn plenty of times and there is plenty of traffic with large trucks while people are traveling at over 150 mph in the left lane and there are FEWER fatalities than in the US. Proof that speed doesn't kill. Inconsiderate drivers hogging the left lane kills. Inconsiderate drivers on phones while they drive kill. Inconsiderate drivers applying makeup while they drive kill. ETC, ETC.
I personally don't give a hoot if the normalized fatalities exceed the US because it's one road of it's kind. I'll bet you the normalized fatalities on the NY Thruway are less than the Autobahn, proof that speed kills. The fact the autobahn needs a dedicated helicopter fleet ought to say something.
How about some stats on the severity of the average accident on the Autobahn vs the severity of the average accident in the US?
Anyway at this time it's beating the proverbial horse.
Well....obviously! Does anyone think that driving above the speed limit is an automatic death sentence???
Most folks (me included) would say that high speed driving can be relatively safe...if extra caution is taken and "good practice" (no distractions, no booze, no LLC, etc.) is followed...however, when those things are held constant (IOW all else being equal), higher speed = higher risk.
...despite your efforts to mis represent.
I'm not aware of any POV of yours that I;'ve misrepresented...you may have, but I haven't ;-)
If your theory that higher speed converts to higher fatality rates is true, by virtual of the fact Europe has up to unlimited speed limits then you would expect the RATES to be significantly higher than in the USA:
OTOH, that, of course, is a misrepresentation of what I've said...several times...ignored each time by you.
I said "all things being equal". And since all things are not equal in those examples (driver training, enforcement, road conditions, consequences, etc.), one should not expect fatalities to be higher in Europe. Unless one ignores a basic principle of statistics and dose not hold all other variables constant.
BTW, my gpa was only about 2.8, but I somehow figured out about variables somehow ;-)
I didn't know there were 2 sides. Is anyone pro-LLC? ;-)
...but I do NOT trust average Joe Cellphone and Mary SUV out there.
I think you are exactly right. This is the "all else being equal" part. If folks were held to higher standards of driving skill, if we reduced the DWI incidence significantly, if we had better enforcement and if the roads were better, a higher speed limit might be acceptable. Ok, maybe not even then ;-)
Like most folks, I am more worried about others doing something stupid than about me doing it. Of course, in my case, I'm actually justified
Sigh. I give up.
At least we know that the laws of physics are suspended on the autobahn ;-)
>Kdshapiro why do you insist on talking about something you know nothing about. Saying the autobahn in Germany is the same as saying the interstate in the US. It isn't a singular road. What the hell is a "normalized fatality'? It sure isn't "normalized" to the person that died.
The fact the autobahn needs a dedicated helicopter fleet ought to say something.
> Yes, it says medical service in Germany is superior to that in the US. By the way, where I live in the US there is also helicopter medical service for major highway accidents. Face it, you have no point and are grasping at straws.
Do everyone a favor by dropping the thoughtless "speed kills" mantra and please keep right except to pass. The next time you see a car gaining on you when you are in the left lane, don't be inconsiderate ... pull over. Thanks
I don't understand what you are talking about, and I'm not sure you do either. You keep spouting statistics and these statistics are the epitome of the expression: "Lies, damn lies and statistics".
"It sure isn't "normalized" to the person that died."
My point exactly about percentages.
..."Most folks (me included) would say that high speed driving can be relatively safe...if extra caution is taken and "good practice" (no distractions, no booze, no LLC, etc.) is followed...however, when those things are held constant (IOW all else being equal), higher speed = higher risk""...
Glad you are clear and glad you agree with me! Or higher speed=higher risk does not necessarily convert to higher fatalities.
..."I think you are exactly right. This is the "all else being equal" part. If folks were held to higher standards of driving skill, if we reduced the DWI incidence significantly, if we had better enforcement and if the roads were better, a higher speed limit might be acceptable. Ok, maybe not even then ;-)
Like most folks, I am more worried about others doing something stupid than about me doing it. Of course, in my case, I'm actually justified
Like you said, things are NEVER all ways equal. It it is more than obvious your opinion was not based on holding variables constant!!
...Might be a good reason why you got a 2.8!
> Yes, it says medical service in Germany is superior to that in the US. By the way, where I live in the US there is also helicopter medical service for major highway accidents. Face it, you have no point and are grasping at straws. "
I would also agree! I really don't know where KShapiro lives but helicopters (for the more serious injuries) are routinely landed in and around the site of accidents to triage folks and to get them with hopefully life saving speed to treatment centers.
I was traveling out of Las Vegas, NV I-15 S heading towards Los Angeles very early one morning before first light. Approximately 30-40 mins outside of central Las Vegas, App 2-3 miles ahead of me, I see what looks to be a big dust cloud on the opposite (on coming) side of the road. So of course, the antennae are up and I flip on the news radio to see if I am running into a spot of localized weather. Off to the right side (my left)of the road, a small car was upside down. As I put two and two together while dialing 911, it occured to me the flipped car was probably the source of the "cloud". Evidently there were other "good sams" for I was told they had already dispatched emergency vehicles and did I directly see the "event" I said no just the dust cloud and hung up immediately to clear the air waves. App 15-20 min later it went on news radio that there was the accident and they were going to close the road in Las Vegas to land a med evac helo.
>Thanks chrisducati for illustrating my point that in America it isn't about lives, it's about money.
Speeding tickets are a method of additional taxation, not about saving lives. If they cared about lives they would take better care of our roadways. Meanwhile, keep right except to pass. Thanks
Probably was speeding in order to have made such a large dust cloud.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You would have been saying the above when the speed limit was 55. Yet the speed limit went up and the death rate dropped. Unfortunately, the mindless mantra "speed kills" didn't drop. What is it about the American mentality and two word sound bites? Meanwhile, don't be inconsiderate, keep right except to pass.
"It sure isn't "normalized" to the person that died."
My point exactly about percentages.
The above is once again proof that evidence and logic cannot remove mantras such as "speed kills" from some people minds. Kdshapiro, if you meet a guy named Jim Jones run away because he'll hit you with a mantra and before you know it you'll be drinking koolaid. Meanwhile, be considerate and keep right except to pass.