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Comments
I would . . though they'll probably insist on checking the battery to see if it's still OK.
Thanks for the "heads up" on that issue, too.
I've had my battery on the Freestyle go bad already. However, I had let it sit a couple of times for 2 to 3 weeks (while I was driving the Five Hundred), so I think it's time was simply "up".
I'd love to get one of those "yellow top" deep-cycle batteries for the Freestyle, but so far, there's no adapter to make it fit easily into the Freestyle's battery holder.
Why does Ford ALWAYS have to use a non-standard (or a very uncommon "standard") size battery in its vehicles?
Yet Again, all I am asking you to do is to validate your points with personal experience and statistical examples. You have yet to do that to any significant effect. That's it, plain and simple. I didn't once say you can't have your opinion, just make it an informed one and illustrate it competently to the rest of us.
"Just annoyed that they espouse safety, but don't add it to the Freestyle. Trust me, they will in a few years if it is still around."
This is just an ignorant statement that I have refuted from the beginning. It seems your opinion supersedes the one of the various regulating and testing agencies that have rated the FS a leader for its safety.
"A troll would dis Ford and its models"
Effectively you are with your statements about their lack of safety consideration in the design of this model.
This is the 3rd time I will be asking you what ESP equipped cars you own that makes you so passionate about dinging the FS for it's lack of one. Make your point already as it is appearing that this is all that you are capable of contributing to the debate...."It works, I know."
1. Baby it of the line and keep the RPM around 2. This has helped me with getting better gas milage, but, is not a great option.
2. Floor it or at least hit the gas hard and you will get off the line better, but, the RPM will shoot upwards of 3 to 4 and your MPG will go down. If you have the trip computer on MPG try it and watch it go down a tenth or two. Once again, once I am up around 35 it picks up fine, but, I don't like the options starting from a dead stop.
True. But the irritating thing is that you will have this experience with ANY vehicle in Freestyle's "class" . . yet they never seem to get the stigma of being "underpowered".
Why is that? I call it an anti-Ford bias on the part of the media.
I just use a map or print out a Yahoo map if I want more details. I don't like leather seats, standard single CD player is fine (an no problems as with the 6 changer), FWD is what I wanted (and there haven't been any transmission problems with the FWD), I'm going to buy a couple of seatback DVD players for 1/2 the price of the installed version, heated seats aren't needed for me, nor are the adjustable pedals, although the memory seats would have been nice.
Bottom line is that price and interior space are what sets the Freestyle apart. If it became a $30-$40K vehicle, I would never buy it.
Er.., up here in Canada Ford marketed the 2004 model Freestar with the Cdn Driving Package and it includes Advancetrac the name Ford gave to stability control Plus all-speed traction control Plus Reverse sensing Plus Brake assist.That is the total safety pack you demand.So go for a 2005 or 2006 model with sky high rebates to boot, jeez what a deal.Maybe even get 3rd row safety canopy thrown in.Hurry,hurry, before they sell the last remaining ones.
For the uninitiated there is a thing called price elasticity of demand.Adding more expensive options only adds to competitive disadvantage when viewed from the standpoint of total cost. Sure they can add ESC to the Freestyle but the price goes up and sales go down as standard equipment.Ford is the acknowledged leader in rollover technology which is available to other auto mfrs.
The question is how much safety features is enough to the point of overkill.What are your chances of survival in a head-on collision with a Mac truck?
No matter how much research is done by the average motorist I doubt very much we know more than the safety engineers who have the resources to do almost an infinite amount of testing and combined with marketing input (??)to come up with optimal solutions for each product. :shades:
I can't imagine how far Ford's sale would slide if they took those off vehicles.
In one simple word... YES!
"1. Baby it of the line and keep the RPM around 2. This has helped me with getting better gas mileage, but, is not a great option."
Yes in order to get better mileage you need to be more aware of throttle inputs, there is no difference in that to a traditional auto in any comparable vehicle. Why is this "not a great option", you are in a CUV that is more than capable of getting out of it own way and the way of those around it, press the gas it goes how fast you tell it and it gets there however quickly your right foot tells it to get there period.
"2. Floor it or at least hit the gas hard and you will get off the line better, but, the RPM will shoot upwards of 3 to 4 and your MPG will go down."
Again, why ding this drivetrain for something that would be the case with any transmission you can buy, stand on the gas and your mileage will suffer, yes it will.
The beauty of this transmission is that it allows the most efficient use of the power that is available. The infinite variability is a benefit compared to fixed gearing, the trans can more finely adjust to the needs of the conditions as opposed to relying on a fixed set, hence no perceptible shift, smoother operation and an all around more pleasant driving experience.
So, what is EBD? It not only shifts brake forces front to back to prevent rear lockup, it can also compensate for brake fade in a long stop. It can also benefit you when braking around a curve to keep the rear end from breaking away. If too much load is on one side of your car, it compensates.
It is a feature also found on cars such as Audi, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Infiniti, BMW, and Toyota. But we all have it as standard on our Freestyles. Another safety feature. Thanks, Ford :shades:
Thank you for finally answering my question. It makes it a lot easier to understand where you are coming from with your opinions as opposed to the blanket, unsupported statements you have made previously.
While I still do not agree with your negative thoughts on Ford Freestyle's current safety capabilities or that ESP is a must have for the future of the automobile, the adoption of ESP will most likely happen as you surmise with the government applying the band aid rather than dealing with the bigger problem.
Driving education the the US is a joke, people see driving as a right and make little if any effort as to understand what the car they drive is capable of regardless of the technology/abilities it possess. There are bigger problems with driving/automobiles than whether or not ESP becomes a legislated item that one more time the government is saving us from ourselves with.
ABS and airbags were improvements legislated you say, yes they were and they were proven at the expense of a number of lives because the technology was not fully realized when it was implemented by the government/manufacturers. ABS used incorrectly is less effective than a non ABS car, yes people use it incorrectly, and airbags killed adults and children in some instances, this all happened. Would the airbag question have presented itself if seatbelts were embraced like they are now, now that they have been made into law? I'm not sure, without a seatbelt an airbag is rendered more or less useless, not the other way around.
The problem in throwing all of this technology out to people is simply they don't know how to correctly use or completely understand what they already have. There needs to be the same effort given to the progress of driver's education in this country. How often do you see that espoused to the masses? Never.
We are going to sell you a 400hp/ESP/TC/ABS/crumple zoned/air bagged/servotronic-ed/injected/manumatic-ed/AC'd/midasized/turbocharged rocket ship that weighs 5000lbs and carries 6 to drive you and you kids in to get groceries at the end of the block in and it can do said feat at 180mph plus. Where is the accountability for someone to be educated in the capabilities of said auto that is available to him/her simply for signing the check to the dealer. I don't need ESP, I need someone to make sure the idiot in the other lane driving this thing is capable of doing it responsibly and there is no one home taking charge of that duty. Better yet who's going to keep said idiot from giving the keys of said car to the teenage son/daughter who is EVEN LESS capable of driving it safely and competently. Yes it happens, all the technology in the world is not going to prevent that. I'd argue that better driver's education would make a bigger impact on fatality rates than any of the technology coming.
You have the financial ability to afford at least one car car with ESP before it being legislated into existence. This apparantly saved you from some damage to your car at the least and more detrimentally, damage to yourself. Does the rest of your family enjoy the security of this feature on their cars? What if you could not afford even the one car you have equipped with ESP, wouldn't it have been nice to possess the skills to react properly to those situations or better yet not even get yourself into them, heck you may for all I know, my point is everyone should and it isn't the priority it should be that they do.
I was in another forum today and what seemed to be a younger driver posted a question "what should I do, go to a driver's ed track day or buy a rear sway bar for my car"? The very fact that he/she even asked the question is a conundrum, while it gives hope that they knew there were options available for furthering their skills, to even ask the question illustrated the problem with the prevalent attitude's towards driving. All respondent's came back with the correct answer for this person, as with most thing's in life, invest in yourself as it will pay off over the long haul.
As for electronics vs driving skill, BOTH are needed. I have been driving since 1973 in all kinds of weather and have driven radically more miles than most people in that time period, but I can't brake one wheel at a time nor react as rapidly as an ESP system. I try to avoid situations in which I need antilock brakes, but I can't control other drivers and I can't brake one wheel or one axle differently than the other(s), while the antilock system does that routinely.
Car have improved dramatically since I started driving my mother's 1970 model year car with drum brakes front and rear - I have always tried to leave long following distances in front of me, but I can still remember several incidents where I could do nothing but stand on the pedal and hope it stopped when others drivers did crazy things. It is 2005, and there really is no good excuse for a vehicle as expensive as the Freestyle not having ESP. Even if Ford really had to charge more, is there anyone here who would not buy, or have bought, a Freestyle if it cost a few hundred dollars more, even a thousand more?
Give the Freestyle the 3.5 V6, new six-speed automatic, and ESP and you really do reduce the market for the Explorer & Mountaineer to those who are towing. In fact, at that point the Freestyle can be renamed Explorer and the Expedition and F-150 can serve the needs of those towing heavy loads.
Here is the link: http://www.safercar.gov/Rollover/pages/faqs.htm#rollodiam
They use the static calculations to cover "tripping" induced rollovers (i.e. curbs), which their statistics say covers 95% of them, and the dynamic test to cover the sliding, off-the-pavement "sliding" rollovers.
The full ratings for 2005 vehicles are at: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ncap/RollRatings2.cfm
Like the tests or not, you can check out the methods for your self. On a related note, Ford claims the Freebie is the only vehicle in its class with (optional) crash/rollover sensing side air curtains. :shades:
As to driving skills in the US. Yes it is a joke. I certainly have owned cars without it. My philosophy is usually KISS, but when it comes to safety, better safe than sorry. Just another little tidbit. You can get ESP on the very inexpensive Hyundai Sonata as well as the Toyota Corolla. I don't think it is cheapness on Ford, it is that their buyers simply don't demand it.
How good for a FWD then?
For the most part, vehicles that are viewed as high powered, or tall, or known for a significant difference in front to rear weight ratio tout ESP the most (Freestyle not in this category).
Some ESP systems come on like a dog at the end of a leash, the next generation comes on more gradually but let your car/SUV swing/slide more before it reigns you back in line. The refinement is not done yet.
ESP does slow the steering input and affect engine power by definition. ESP can be fooled, just as the early ABS systems could. Response time, single input vs. multiple input sensors, which generation, single or multi-stage response would be important parameters for me to understand before I pay extra for a 5 cent marketing sticker saying ESP.
No electronics can replace driver skill. Usually, the vehicles I see zig-zagging through traffic, or riding peoples' bumpers are the top heavy SUVs. I don't have much sympathy for their vehicles' fate. The general traffic flow in front of you is a good indicator of upcoming road conditions. You have to pay attention to stay safe.
Just as one forum poster had to have ESP before buying a Freestyle, I had to have other features which only the Freestyle had. It is a personal choice, after all. Got to go now, I haven't driven my Freebie in 24 hours and need to take another enjoyable drive. If you own one, you know what I mean... :shades:
I also completely agree that AWD, especially a system as good as the one on the Freestyle, is a significant safety feature, and that with antilock brakes and traction control, it can do many of the things an ESP system can do.
The Freestyle with the 3.0 and CVT may be just as fast as was that 2002 Mountaineer V8, even though the Mountaineer had the 3.73 differential gears which came with the tow package. The 3.5 V6 will surely make it as fast (or faster) than the current Explorer V8.
Colors are a personal preference, but if you haven't sat in a Freestyle with the black Limited interior, you may be surprised at the dramatic difference between it and the very light tan interior shown in most of the reviews and photos on the Internet.
On the other hand, I do agree that at some point all cars will probably come with ABS, ESP, side-curtain airbags, etc...all as standard equipment. In my opinion, the government should mandate this, just like they did with seatbelts, center high brake lights, etc. If all manufacturers had to have all of these safety features, then through economies of scale maybe the cost to install them would go down (maybe?). And if all vehicle costs increased because of it, at least we’d know the reason for the cost increase. Then manufactures could focus on luxury options to distinguish one car from another. Safety is one place I think the government should intervene to ensure that the best safety features are put on all cars.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef819ec
http://autoblog.com/2006/01/10/2007-chrysler-aspen-official-pics-and-specs/
It is the interior where you really see the resemblance. The three-row seating with two rows that fold (excuse me - stow and go). The console and arm rests look really familiar (same supplier?), though putting the shifter on the steering column is not my cup of tea.
The base 4.7L engine puts out 235 HP. And yes, it comes with an optional 5.7L HEMI with cylinder shutdown. It needs to. The curb weight is an estimated 5100 pounds. EPA mileage est. 14 city/19 Hwy. Interesting point: the 235 horsepower 4.7L engine gets ~0.82 HP/cubic inch / the Freestyle 3.0L engine gets ~1.1 HP per cubic inch.
Just wanted to let you know there are some major Freestyle admirers. OK, the Aspen is a luxury Durango. Chrysler, thanks for recognizing a good design when you saw it. :shades:
Sure the Edge has that gimmicky new wave look but it doesn't have three rows of seats. The Explorer and Expedition do but they are gas hungry, exspensive, and drive like trucks err I mean suv's.
What a great family vehicle the Freestyle is on all fronts.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060123/SUB/60120098/1003
This is good news. While the look of our 2005 FS has grown on me, it is still not a catwalk beauty. I think losing the bolt on side molding, gaining the Fusion/Edge nose and hopefully hiding the rear roof line step up behind the utility bars would improve the car a lot. I guess they will not be able to hide the step up roof line but I'd certainly settle for the first two.
I am also assuming the the FS will get the 3.5l engine in this make over, perhaps with the option of the new 6 speed over the CVT (don't get me wrong, I like the CVT, but I think the 6 speed would have greater towing capability).
ANT14 can you confirm?
So it would have to be the new 6-sp tranny (most likely), or a rework of the CVT (which I've heard nothing about).
I think the engine upgrade was planned for MY2008 (which would start in fall 2007). Seems like they'd do the "facelift" at the same time.
CVT = "continuously variable" transmission, since there are a LOT of obtainable ratios between the highest and lowest possible. I won't say "infinite" because of probably mechanical reasons. But it's a huge number, I'm sure.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cvt.htm
xnappo
It would be good news that Ford will realize its capital value in the Freestyle and with the flex plant operation at Chicago they can make best use of it by offering additional powertrain options to suit different customer needs. Don't see any cannibalization conflicts with the intro of the new Ford Edge.With some of the plant closures, Explorer sales are expected to decline.
Ford is making some hard and painful decisions with cost costainment and some short term suffering but it should pay off with greater success in the future (hopefully). :shades:
With the plant which makes the CVT closing, Ford reporting high cost on the imported belt, and the new GM/Ford 6-speed automatic coming out, it seems obvious that the CVT will be gone.
I hope not the CVT. The ZF plant at Batavia is not mentioned.Could be a different plant there but not sure.
"Monday, January 23, 2006
Ford Plant Closings
As part of today's "Way Forward" announcement, Ford has announced that it is closing the following plants. I have included the products produced at these plants (source: Wikipedia)
* St. Louis Assembly--Explorer, Mountaineer (which are also produced in Louisville, KY)
* Atlanta Assembly--Taurus, Sable
* Wixom Assembly--Town Car, LS, GT
* Batavia Transmission--CD4E Transmission (Ford Escape/Mercury Mariner)
* Windsor Casting--Engine blocks, crankshafts
* Two additional assembly plants, TBD
Update: Mark Fields announced that Ford will build a new "low cost" assembly plant to be located in North America. Note that he didn't say "United States", which means it could be located in Canada or Mexico.
The announcement that Wixom is closing is a real blow to Michigan. There were hopes that the plant could be saved."
:confuse:
http://www.lasercannon.com/cvt.htm
Take particular note of the very last paragraph. :shades:
**********
Summary: In the end the only thing that the Ford 500 is really lacking is.....good marketing! We put together 3 focus groups of local consumers all between the ages of 25 and 40, and took them for a ride in the 500. The we asked each of them how they would rate the experience over 80% stated that the ride was at least as good at the European car they currently own! Every single one stated that if they had been put into the car blindfolded they would have never know it was a Ford!
We asked the "moms" if they had any special likes or dislikes. The only complaint was that the car did not have a onboard navigation system. Several of the women stated they had never seen a single TV commercial for this car! Anyone who responded to seeing a Ford 500 commercial stated that they were not motivated to even go to a dealer so see the car!!
The Ford 500 is the most underrated American sedan and also the most under marketed car in the Ford product line. WE give this car a big thumbs up for design, performance, safety and value. Go Check it out.
It has the stock 18 inch rims with Pirelli P6's that are really great in dry road conditions. However in the winter with snowy conditions they can become lethal... This is how I have found that out.
Doing 50 on a snow covered road i made a 180 degree spin. Maybe with ESP it would not have happened..who knows.
Anyway, this went down. I must have hit a puddle and that lifted the rear of the car up a little and then a bit to the side. I felt the rear sliding away from me. I instantly responded by taking my foot of the gas and by counter steering trying to get the car back in a straight line. While in a straight line I braked slowly to reduce the speed. After a couple of rear slides from left to right
the car rotated a 180 degrees to come to a full stop on the other side of the road. It took me a couple of seconds to realize how much luck I just had. There is a ditch and trees on both sides and normally there is more traffic on that road.
I lost a lot of faith in the safety options of my FS because of this event. Especially in the Pirelli tires. I discovered that the abs kicks in very quickly even with very low speed (10kmh) when breaking hard on snow. With the abs fully working the car just keeps skidding in a straight line like it is never gonna stop. With a winter sport trip to quebec on the calendar, i'm a bit spooked by my FS.
So I went to my dealer to get some snow/ice tires for my FS. To my surprise there are no snow/ice tires available for the stock 18 inch rims. After a lot of searching online and calling around they advised me to buy 17 inch steel rims at Walmart. Those WM steel rims in combination with "special order" Dunlop's is the only set that will come close to the diameter I have with the 18 inch rims in combination with the P6's.
The WM/Dunlop set price wel be around 1100 cad$.
Anybody else with a FS limited awd having tire issues?
Why not have different wheels? I always had different wheels for the winter tires when I lived in St. Louis, MO. It is just so much easier. I even had aluminum winter wheels for one car, as I found a set which looked good and were not expensive. However, I agree that Ford needs to think about winter tires when they come out with new models.
Yes definately.
Sam
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Looks what Ford will do the Cyclone with 6-spd. Being a IVT/CVT fan, I would had tried something among several options:
Tune the variable-cam 30 into an up to 220 horse & torque engine. CVTs really make the most out of each extra one. Furthermore, if Ford had plan it upfront, they would had leveraged the Fusion engine on the second year of production. Any gas savings would be icing in the cake.
Check the Murano people and see whether they could leverage their 245 horse & torque design. Fees to be negotiated...
(Best) Start busting Torotrak and get them to deliver a 250 horse & torque IVT. However, I bet they can't mass produce a unit with such power demands yet.
As regulars in here know, Torotrak IVTs have the ANT14 seal of approval.
Question to ANT14: Any progress on the IVT field?
FYI - IVT (Infinitely Variable Transmission)
A CVT's operating range is from "first" to "top" gear (somewhat similar to a 6-speed). It requires a separate "reverse" gear.
An IVT extends the range all the way to reverse. Thus, it would out-anything anything off the line (a well-known CVT weakness) as it will "CVT" the best "ultra-low" gear/pulley ratio.
Sam
These technologies rely on the key issue of friction. No matter how great ABS and ESP are, without friction, they simply won't work very well ... I can tell you from experience. ABS does not work on a snow packed road when you hit the brakes -- the car just kept sliding. :mad: Same applies with gravel or sand on the road.
Keep in mind that every sales piece I have seen on ABS and ESP assumes that at least one tire has traction.
You are correct. Without friction/traction, you'll continue in a straight line. Newton's First Law.