Ford Freestyle - Taurus X

figueroafamily

MGPMGP:

Just ask the dealer (or better, yellow pages the cost for the tint work. Adding $70 to a $25,000 price tag represents a "horrendous" 0.25% increase in price.

I realize 200 horsies look low among "HEMI" & other competitor offerings. I'm in the "drooling for Freestyle (w/Duratec) 35" camp, yet the Freestyle's engine/transmission combo would set it apart. Note the CVT is roughly equivalent to a 6-speed in fuel efficiency (Amy Marentic, Free/500 Mkt. Manager in interview - paraphrase).

Most engines (including "HEMI") are mated to 4- or 5-speeds. If the "Freebie" performance, acceleration, etc. is good, I'll happily buy a Freestyle 30. It's not only how many horses, but how well the horses are used.

In short, don't let 200 horses tell the story. Only Mr. Ed talked. Once it's in dealers, test drive it, including a section of interstate. I will.

Sam

rcf8000

I wonder why Ford is going to all the trouble of having a 6 speed transmission AND a CVT available for the 500 (but for some strange reason not for the Freestyle) if the two transmissions are about equivalent in efficiency. Just what are the advantages of a CVT, then? Better acceleration? I doubt it, since it is standard only on the cheapest 500 model, the SE.

tidester

Adding $70 to a $25,000 price tag represents a "horrendous" 0.25% increase in price.

It's actually worse than that: 0.28% :-)

tidester, host

johnclineii

Picky, picky.

Should have been a lawyer!

OTOH, factory tint is legal in every state, additional after-market tint might not be in some states. So it may be more than a matter of 0.28%. It could be a matter of being legal or not...

mgpmgp

Factory privacy glass has the tint embedded right inside the glass. Aftermarket tint is just a sticker that is put on the inside of the window. It can be scratched so I would not want it on a new car. The real issue is why is Ford's Crossover the only crossover that does not include normal privacy glass, even as an option. Would you really want a DVD entertainment center where people can easily watch you as you watch movies. If its just an all-wheel drive wagon, then call it that, but without privacy glass I could not imagine calling it a crossover, like the Highlander, for example. That is why I may elect a Pilot or something like that come late summer. I don't want another wagon and to me privacy glass is what discriminates a wagon from a crossover.

ANT14

Crossover's/car-based ute's = Wagons of this decade. It's just a fancy name to disorientate consumer's perceptions from the wood-sided station wagon's they grew up in.

And probably 20 year's from now fuel becomes much more expensive and consumer's perception of Trucks/Ute's will be quite negative because of their thirst...We might be on this forum saying "Ewwww, we don't want that vehicle, it has V8 engine built on a truck platform. I remember my momma having one of them beasts when we were growing up"... hehehe

"Just what are the advantages of a CVT, then? Better acceleration? I doubt it, since it is standard only on the cheapest 500 model, the SE."

Better acceleration, less parasitic power loses, better fuel economy, less parts that may breakdown over regular transmissions, useable torque available through-out the power band, no gear hunting/jerky upshifts/downshifts.

Negatives: Perception that your not going as fast as it feels because the engine note won't rise and fall as usual geared automatics.

figueroafamily

Greetings:

I would like to know what difference does it make to have 17 or 18-inch wheels on a vehicle.

BTW:
Ford Freestyle - $25K/$30K
Tinted Window - $70
Traffic Ticket - $100
Insurance Rise - $untold

Knowing you can calculate such extra costs in percentage,
p-r-i-c-e-l-e-s-s


Sam

rcf8000

If the CVT is superior to the 6 speed in all those areas, why is the 6 speed used in all 500s except the SEs? You'd think they'd put the better transmission in the more expensive cars.

stickguy

In my opinion, the trend to ward ever bigger diameter wheels is mostly styling at this point. But, in general, bigger wheels tend to have lower profile tires, which in theory gives a little wharper handling, but often at the expense of ride comfort, poorer tracking (they can be more "darty"), and higher price. Lowere profile tires also damage easier, and the wheels are more likely to get whacked. Also can lower fuel economy, and don't tend to last as long.

For most family cars, 16" w/55 or 60 series tires is more than adaquate. 17" 45 series are overkill, as are 28" for a mid size cross over like the Freestyle.

rcf8000

The trend toward larger and larger wheels is ALL about styling. It's really dumb. You don't see any "dubs" on race cars, do you?

ANT14

Rcf, show my the ordering guide your looking at.

Some options are shuffled around later on, to target different consumer's. Example, being the CVT is a new product, they might have it on the entry trim models, to get their CAFE down since those will be the trim levels they expect to sell more. Or in another case, they can offer both versions on the entry level, to give consumer's a wider choice since some might not like the CVT's feeling.

There's many senarios being played out, so you might see things shift upon the vehicles introduction, and months later after a certain "shopping trend" is measured, then they'll re-adjust the option groups to provide better packaging and availability.

rcf8000

See post #488.

ANT14

Ah yes, THAT ordering guide. Although it seems to be linking me to the Freestar's ordering guide and not the Freestyle or 500's. Hmmmm Odd....

rcf8000

It links me to ordering guides for all Ford products.

figueroafamily

For whatever reason, their links to the Freestyle send you to the Freestar' s. I down loaded earlier the former's guide. My suspicion is a software update, Microsoft-style...

Sam

figueroafamily

I spotted a Pueblo Gold Limited. This should help those bored of seeing Freestyles in Merlot & Blue. It's in fordvehicles.com "Real World Environmental Benefits" link at the bottom. The "High MPG, low emissions" tab shows the Freestyle. You'll see it bigger if you click on that link.

BTW, CVT saves an "awesome" 4% in fuel use. In a 25 MPG car, that's ONE. (Freestyle's a bit higher in Highway, supposedly.) I thought they said before 8-10%.

FYI, the 2-ton V8 Dodge HEMI Magnum can do 24 Highway. (They turn off 4 cylinders during light use. It can save 5-20% in fuel depending on how much lead is in your foot. It doesn't have a third row. However, it can tow 3800, and it'll be AWD later in the year.

Not as efficient as promoted CVT. This brings forth the joys of CLE. Continuously Lowered Expectations... (Like when Ford reps told me in the NY Auto Show it'll $26-$34K vs. the $30K tops originally stated.)

I'll still keep the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps when we drive it, my opinions would be blown away. I hope so.

Sam

joey2brix

All the talk of a DOD Hemi, well let's just wait and see what the real mileage is. That's still a lot of iron to haul around. I don't think you'll see city mileage above 15 MPG on a HEMI. I would never buy a DOD engine. The thought of half the engine wearing out at a different rate then the rest of the motor worries me. DO you really think they've long term testing on DOD yet?

iglooheat

Although I'm gonna buy a Freestyle for the wife and kids, I do like the Magnum. I can't believe it took a (quasi) American car company all this time to make a factory hot-rod wagon. If we could get two new cars, I'd consider a v6 Magnum.

As for uneven DOD engine wear, it shouldn't be a problem. The cylinders still move as they can't be disconnected from the crankshaft. What DOD does is close the valves so that no fuel/air enters the deactivated combustion chamber. This isn't the first DOD from DC; several Mercedes v8 models have had it for the last few years.

jchan2

really? I never knew that! Which Mercedes Benz models have DOD? Are they reliable? (probably not)

ANT14

From what I remember, the last V-12 had it, but that was a limited production engine, and not many were made. Instead, they are now using blown V8's for V-12 like power. But as for their regular V8's having DOD, I'm not too sure I have read about such a thing.

figueroafamily

I didn't mean to pinch Ford-ite nerves. My point is that innovation is an important part of the making of "the car to get". Dodge/Chrysler has routinely been good at that. (The car's reliability, etc. is another story.) The bits and pieces I got from Freestyle have not thrilled me. (However, the actual test drive should be a different animal. Let's wait & see.)

For the record, I do plan to get a "Freebie". The Dodge looks great, but it's No-Go for me.

Sam

figueroafamily

Ladies & Gentlemen:

I did a little "research" on what to expect from a Freestyle.

Acceleration
============
Freestyle may surprise many, based on the Marentic interview (#513). If the CVT truly makes the car act like a 250-pony vehicle, it can do 0-60 in the 8's. Reasons:
* Edmunds' minivan competition had the Japanese vans doing 8's. The Sienna and Odyssey have 230-240 ponies.
* Windstar did it in the 9's, with a 200 pony engine.
* Freestyle is more aerodynamic than a minivan, so less drag is a granted.

TOWING
======
The CVT should help in here as well. However, my suspicion is that they didn't reinforce the Volvo-based frame for pulling. A capacity of 2000 towing pounds isn't impressive in an SUV-filled world.
* Nonetheless, it's a decent amount for pulling. But, if you're planning to go around in your RV, you're asking for trouble.
* A L-4 Escape can only pull a 1,000 pounds. Most sedans do about that much.

Accommodation
============
It seats four-five comfortably, and the last two remain to be seen. (Recall there's a 3-people bench or 2-people chairs for the second row.) I missed taking a third-row picture at the auto show. It seemed close to the second-row backs, like Explorer's. However, its design is for a 6 footer comfortably.
* As I said after the NY Auto Show (# 461), the Ford people were able to squash in (literally) a 6'7" in the third-row. I'm 5'6", and I wasn't comfortable in the Explorer third-row.
* This accommodation is as good as any minivan out there.
* In addition, the flexible arrangement beats the minivans. You can't have a two-row long piece in a minivan without having to remove seats. That's no problem on Freestyle, or Stow-n-Go Chryslers.
* The tailgate seat (# 504) beats all other minivans, tied only to Freestar/Monterey.

Handling
========
It doesn't have Advance-Trac, yet it has AWD (available), ABS, and Traction Control. The only difference between A-T and Freestyle is there's no Traction Control of sorts on the real wheels. However, I believe this is pretty much cared for by the Volvo AWD.
* Most SUVs or Minivans don't have that many features, or you'll have to pay quite a bit.
* Only Subarus and a few Volvos have AWD and ABS. (I may be missing some.) No mention of Traction Control.

Riding
======
The Command Seating should be an interesting feature. It may be minivan level "view" from a car seat. (An SUV "view" may be stretching it.)
* The Murano people in their thread mention CVT being useful in snow (# 500). That's Freestyle's transmission type. The reason is that CVT has a lot more 1st and 2nd "gears" than a normal transmission. In short, more flexible.
* Freestyle has also AWD & Traction Control. It won't defy physics, but it'll bend the rules a bit for you.

Fuel Use
========
The closest thing to Freestyle is the Taurus Duratec Wagon. The latter does 19 city and 26 highway.
* The CVT efficiency should reduce "lead foot" once the person is used to it. That in itself should help MPG.
* With a 4% gain in efficiency (the lowest Ford claimed), Freestyle would be 20 & 27. FYI, that's the Taurus Duratec sedan rating.
* An 8% gain (max claimed) will translate into 20.5 & 29.

The nutshell: This is a better "niche" product than most will realize. That includes me, as you may notice from earlier posts.

Expect Freestyles to be popular, and even capable of reigning the crossover market.

Sam

nedc2

Acceleration and the the Freestar and other minivans vs. Freestyle: You're forgetting that the Freestar, though it has "only" 200 ponies has the highest torque rating of any minivan.

As far as towing goes, if I really intended to do any substantial towing I'd opt for a body on frame design. Reinforcing a unit frame body, like the Honda Pilot, to make it capable of a higher towing rating effectively negates the advantages of the unitary design. I also question how well the CVT is suited to towing due to the torque limitaions inherent in its design.

The accomadations and interior space are impressive though, and it seems to be a nicer package than most other crossovers, with a lower entry height, and less blocky appearance, whether that will be a selling point is another matter, Ford tweaked the design to make it look more like an SUV even though it retains a more carlike stance that its competitors like the Pilot, Pacifica, Highlander and Equinox.

I've noticed that Ford seems to be doing evaluations of the Freestyle against, the Chevy Equinox now, I've seen them parked and driving together in pairs around Dearborn. I imagine that the Freestyle will be priced very competitively, they don't want to make the same mistake they made with the Freestar last year and overprice it.

figueroafamily

OK, I admit I'm not a expert on car matters.

What I understand is HP relates to acceleration, and torque to towing capacity. Yes, Freestar/Monterey have the best torque around. However, most minivans pull 3,500 pounds, AKA the Escape V6's rating. The net result is a tie. (FYI, my wife & I love the Monterey over all others. We almost bought one recently.)

On body frames, you have a point. Cars won't be politicians. A particular vehicle won't be all things to all people. The Freestyle's attractiveness stems from being a well-balanced compromise (fuel economy, passengers, cargo volume, etc.). But expecting it to be "best in class" on a particular feature is asking too much. For example, I certainly hoped for Escape-level or better towing, but now I realize that was an unrealistic expectation. (Thanks for enlightening me on body frames. I learned something today.

Matching new entries Freestyle & Equinox is a good sales tactic.
* Freestyle has more horses (200 vs. 185).
* Freestyle has 2 rows plus passenger seat fold-flat. Equinox only one row plus passenger seat.
* Equinox is "yet another SUV". Freestyle is a SU-wagon ("fresh new idea"). A wagon isn't new, but you know how car critics are...

At the NY show, the video piece on Freestyle had scenes of athletic people climbing those walls you see in gyms. It also showed them carrying their stuff after a nice ride getting there. The sales pitch was a sporty carry-all vehicle.

On the other hand, Freestyle wouldn't look great vs. Magnum. The latter denotes brute force and sheer looks. That's its attractiveness. (Not including the insane horsepower below the hood.) In the final analysis, I bet Freestyle would beat it in versatility (except in towing). Both vehicles can carry surfboards inside, and are priced about the same. The coin toss is looks vs. practical.

Sam

tjnb

I want a new car now. I was going to get the Sienna or the Pacifica but I think they way too expensive. I kinda like the Freestar but it is way too much ( as evident by the $2000 plus 0% financing offer ).

When is the Freestyle going to ship?

figueroafamily

Ford's Job One (first out the door) date is Mid-July. I expect to see it in dealers sometime in August.

Don't forget to go to fordvehicles.com website for getting a brochure once it's released. I don't know when they'll send it.
-> fordvehicles.com
-> future vehicles (at any car category tab, like SUV, Car/Minivan)
-> Freestyle
-> Sign-up at right hand side

Sam

badgerfan

I don't understand your statement about Freestar being expensive. Yes MSRP was likely set too high on them, but Ford soon slapped the big rebates on, so when you actually bargain, it is likely priced OK.

I generally like Ford products, but in the minivan area, I think Ford is lagging, mostly due to their emphasis on SUV's and crossovers and lack of a true full redesign to incorporate the latest and greatest features of the competition. (We have a Taurus and Caravan in our garage.)

I also doubt if you will find much discounting on Freestyle until the supply pipelines are full, so I bet you would be looking at least 6 months after introduction to see any appreciable bargaining, and if Freestyle is a big hit, maybe longer. Ford is going to build Freestyle along side Five Hundred in Chicago plant, so Ford's capacity to build both in volume may not be available.

tjnb

Rebates do make it much more attractive. It does lag the SIenna and Odyssey in some things, but it is safe.

The Freestyle will be both safe and fun. I will wait till year 2 and see I guess. I have yet to get an email from the Freestyle site though.

ANT14

The Freestyle will be incredibly safe. Many of the structural components, and reinforcement members exceed what most of the competition has, you can expect 5 star ratings across the board in governments crash testing.

Quite a bit of emphansize was placed upon the B-pillar for the Freestyle and 500 as well, and that itself will allow it to do very well in side impact testing.

badgerfan

Then,I guess you don't want a car now. Either that or you want a car now, but are willing to wait 2 years. Thus you don't really need a new car, you just want one?

New model cars are sometimes enticing, but you can keep your wallet perpetually empty chasing the latest and greatest.

figueroafamily

ANT14:

You tried to get the Freestyle Ordering Guide earlier. They had a misguided link to Freestar's. I told them about it today, and they fixed it.

Just go to fordaxz.com to get full information on options, trims, etc. The only thing they don't have is a swatch of the colors & cladding available. (For example, titanium green & gun metal clad. What ever happened to "plain blue"?)
-> fordaxz.com
-> click "Ordering Guides" toward the top
-> select Freestyle

I agree with you on the safety of the Freestyle. It comes from a Volvo platform (safety-conscious company), and has all the extra safety features you wish. Short of bulletproof armor, it has it in.

-----
All others, join in on the intelligence gathering .

Sam

johnclineii

I've been looking much more seriously at the Five Hundred. Will the Freestyle be able to have rows one and two occupied with luggage in what would otherwise be row three nicely covered by some windowshade type device? If so, I might changeth my mind.

I wonder what the MSRP difference will be between the Five Hundred and Freestyle. And what the handling difference will be. And the MPG difference...

johnclineii aka the Question Box

figueroafamily

Will the Freestyle be able to have rows one and two occupied with luggage in what would otherwise be row three nicely covered by some window shade type device?
--------------
The answer to your question is clearly pictured in MSN Autos. The next to last picture shows all passenger side seats (front, second row, and third) folded flat.
-> autos.msn.com
-> future vehicles
-> scroll down to Ford Freestyle

Freestyle offers a lot of flexibility due to its fold-flat options.
* Passenger front seat folds.
* Two variants on the second row. A 40/60 bench or 2 chairs & a console. Both seat sets fold flat, but the console would "stick out". I prefer the former myself.
* Third row is 50/50, whether fold-flat, seat, tail-gate or combination.

Freestyle has the third row shaded only. There were comments in this thread Ford tries to have both rows. "Stay Tuned."

The 500 has both passenger and back row folding flat.

--------------
I wonder what the MSRP difference will be between the Five Hundred and Freestyle.
--------------
According to Ford Reps at the NY Auto Show:
* 500 ranges 22-29.
* Freestyle 26-34.

--------------
And what the handling difference will be. And the MPG difference...
--------------
Both use the same platform (Volvo S80, a.k.a. Ford "P2"), Duratec 30 engine, and CVT-type transmission. (The top 500 would use a 6-speed.) Handling should be about the same.
Amy Marentic said in her interview the CVT would be "just a bit" less efficient than the 6-speed. But, the sticker supposedly would not show a difference.
However, based on the Taurus Duratec Sedan & Wagon, I would expect 1.00 MPG better on the Sedan (500).

Sam

tjnb

1) Will the new CVT hold up? It sounds scary to me, because it is the first time being used. I hope it is great.
2) Will Ford price the Freestyle competively. The Pacifica is now going to be 25-35K. The Freestyle should be less. I saw an '05 Pacifica for $34,780 and it was loaded. AWD, DVD, leather seats and power liftgate. I almost bought it! The Freestyle Ltd. needs to be less than that to be in the right ballpark. Afterall, a Ford is supposed to be a value car, not a luxury car. I hope the 26-34 range is high and it is more like 22-30.
3) The MPG needs to be in the 20's, like 20-22 City and 28-30 Highway. I have an idea it will not be. More likely to be 18-26.

4) The Freestyle needs the Duretec 35 ASAP.

jchan2

Chrysler lowered the price tag on the Pacifica? Great! If Chrysler improves Fuel Economy, they'll see sales rise from where they are now.

Ford has to underprice the Chrysler. If I saw both for $34,780, I'd buy the Pacifica, even though it has less seating capability than the Freestyle.

ANT14

Pacfica would be the closest competitor to the idealogy of what the Freestyle is about. Unfortunately (and Chrysler admitted publically) they produced too many of the higher line versions, and I myself saw some easily hit $40K. They were trying to ride the way of asking for that amount, since they actually thought they had a segment busting vehicle that everyone was going to flock to.

Another major drawback is the lack of power, I was constantly slamming the gas to get the transmission to shift for more power and I'm sure that didn't help fuel economy either. Chrysler's 3.5L isn't a bad engine overall, but it's 250HP has always felt as if 25 horses were on vacation. That and the curb weight which weights as much, if not more than an Explorer (and in an Explorer I'll allow it since it's Body on Frame construction).

But the weight gain was needed to reinforce the platform (which is derived from their minivans and getting dated), so this is where the Freestyle will have an advantage....Which translates to better fuel economy from less platform weight, and transmissions that will maximize the engines power throughout the torque band.

immovable

could the Freestyle use a gas electric hybrid system, similar to the upcoming escape? it seems like it already has the CVT in place, so maybe it wouldn't be that much of a stretch. the Freestyle appeals to those who place practicality above all else, and this seems like it would be a good option, and very appealing to customers.

immovable

or diesel?

figueroafamily

Price
---------
I hope they adjust it down, since it'll fight with Magnum & Pacifica & Equinox, etc. For the same price, hot-rod people will go Magnum, SUV-addicts will go Equinox, and so on. You get the picture.
Token rebates, like $500 on the 2005 Focus, won't cut it.
If Freestyle becomes more expensive than a Monterey, I'll be driving a minivan instead. (My pride will be hurt... =(

Fuel use
---------
The Taurus Duratec is 19/26. The Freestyle will be higher than that. A bit or a lot, it'll be higher. My bet is 21/27.

Hybrid & 35
---------
If they "grow" the Hybrid system to match a Duratec 30, we'll be in fuel paradise. Just imagine, Duratec 35 acceleration while getting Focus gas mileage... Wouldn't that be a dream come true, or what?
If the Escape exceeds expectations, don't be surprised to see such thing happen. Even for the Explorer.
I wished they had the 35 ready too, but that's life.

Sam

ANT14

There could be a possible hybrid version of the Freestyle, but that's quite a bit ahead in the future. The current one in the Escape Hybrid, will also be used in the Mercury Mariner, as well as the Ford midsize sedan formally known as Futura. So we are looking at 2006 by that time that system is fitted into that sedan.

During that time, Ford can fit a V-6 Duratec for a similar system. Although it would require a larger CVT to handle the increased torque the larger hybrid engine would create.

As for Diesels, I'm all for it. Ford (in conjunction with Peugeot) have their 2.7L V6 Diesel in Europe which is one of the best of it's kind in technology, quietness and sophistication. They use it throughout their ranges, and even Jaguar as well.

Ford is working on larger diesel engine possibilities for it's light trucks.

johnclineii

I believe you meant the Ford midsize sedan FORMERLY known as Futura....

jchan2

Do we have a name for the Mercury version of the Freestyle yet?

ANT14

Yes I did say sedan formally called Futura, didn't I ?

No Mercury "M" name released publically.

figueroafamily

ANT14 reported it's on planning stages. Amy Marentic (Mkt. Manager 500/Freestyle) said it'll be made after the 500/Montego & Freestyle. When is "after"? Nobody knows on this side of Ford Corporation.

Sam

ANT14

I'm lost... Which vehicle debut is it you want to know about ?

johnclineii

I believe the question is about the Mercury version of the Freestyle...and that the original query was What will it be named...

jchan2

anybody have any information about the Mercury version of the Freestyle?

ANT14

That information hasn't been mentioned yet. The Mercury version of the Freestyle will be a bit more "different" than the Freestyle version. But sales of this vehicle (that has yet to be named) will be in 2006 which you can expect it to have the 3.5L V6 already phased in.

Soon after this release, they'll be another Mercury vehicle which details are being kept quiet about. COUld be a another cute vehicle for your GARrage.

stever

lol, interesting way your CAPS lock key got stuck there, Ant.

Steve, Host

ANT14

Opps, yes they did get stuck, I'm glad someone was able to figure it out heh....