Ford Freestyle - Taurus X

stever

I feel like some old John Mellencamp music now....

Steve, Host

explorerx4

your posts are great. very informative, whenever you post. i should change my handle to 4xford.

jchan2

Really interesting how your CAP LOCK GOT STUCK on that part.

ANT14

Freestyle's Mercury twin as I mentioned, will be a bit different in concept. And Mazda is hunting for a Mazda9 vehicle. Don't be surprised if they have a bit of kinship, although that's still being planned out.

My personal belief, build it, and they will come. But everything has to be obsessed about, in consumer clinics to see if it's a viable product, and many ideas are changed at that point, and then fourth.

figueroafamily

ANT14:

Your description of the Mercury Freestyle made me recall the Aviator concept. I saw it at the NY Auto show. Are both vehicles different, or they could be eventually a single one? (I think it's the former.)

Mercury reps showed the Aviator as a luxury vehicle. There were "serious thought" (?) on making it a reality by 2006. It would have the 35, and it's very different to Freestyle.

FYI, its cabin is like two rows of first class airline seats with leg rests. Each row had a console, from which tray tables come out for each seat. Its designer flies way too much.

BTW, I agree with the earlier posts. You're extremely knowledgeable.

Sam

ANT14

The Aviator is based on the Mazda6 platform (CD3), and has 2 rows of seats (although you could smack a 3rd row in there). It would be a direct competitor to the Lexus RX330 in overall concept. The Duratec35 engine will first come out on that vehicle, before it trickles elsewhere (as it stands now).

That platform will underpin a Ford version, Mazda version (Mercury might not need one since they share the same showroom), as well as next generation minivans.

Although this differs from the Volvo P2 platform being used in the 500/Montego/Freestyle/ etc.

figueroafamily

ANT14:

I construe from your post that a "Mercury Freestyle" is not planned. Instead, Lincoln/Mercury will bring the Aviator forward.

Am I correct?

Sam

ANT14

Yes there will be a Freestyle, a la Mercury, but a bit different than the Freestyle. As in, maybe it won't offer the 3.0L, just the Duratec35 standard.... maybe it'll only have 2 rows of seats, maybe it'll be more like a hatchback, etc. THAT detail hasn't been finalized and it's till being planned out yet.

It won't come out till a year after the Freestyle is in full swing.

mgpmgp

Just how much more advanced is the Duratec 35 going to be compared to the Duratec 30? Is is so much more advanced that it will deliver just as good fuel economy (or better) as the 30 while delivering significantly more horsepower and torque at the same time. Is it expected to be quieter and smoother? Are there plans to phase out or modernize the 30 at some point?

Also did I hear that the Lincoln Aviator will use a Mazda 6 platform while the Mercury Freestyle will use a Volvo P2 platform?

ANT14

The Duratec35 will obviously be more advanced overall and incorporate advanced components to allow it to acheive good fuel milage, without sacrificing performance, such as VVT and ECT (drive by wire) for example.

The Duratec30 is already modernized by today standards, depending upon the application. In the Lincoln LS and Jag X/S-type, it realizes 30+HP and 20+TQ. , Mazda designed it's own heads, which allowed it to increase HP as well. We are just used to hearing about the Taurus version, which itself is advanced and will continue to be improved upon.

Yes, the Next Aviator will be based on the CD3 platform, which is derived from the Mazda6 platform. Ford will also receive a mid-size SUV from this platform as well... And incase your wondering, YES they will run them along with the P2 platform offerings (the Freestyle).

You would think, why wouldn't they just derive a mid-size SUV off the P2 platform (it's called Volvo Xc90) but in the scale of economics, and to save from brand dilusion... it's best to go with the CD3 platform...which will also spawn the next generation minivans.

jchan2

does Ford have any in house platforms that we might like that wasn't a CD3 platform (Mazda6) or P2 (Volvo S80/XC90)

ANT14

Depending upon the application, here in the U.S..... passenger vehicles, there's the Taurus/sable/Freestar/Old-Conti platform. The C1 platform (Focus). The Panther paltform (Town Car, Grand Marquis, Marauder, Crown Vic). The Fox platform (Mustang). DEW98 which is Lincoln LS, Jag S-type, XJ. Jag X-type uses European Mondeo platform (we called it Contour.Mystique overhere). The Escape uses a Mazda 626 derived platform and will probably go to C1.

Footnote: Mustang is going into a D2C platform, which has a kinship with DEW98, DEW98 will be strictly for Jaguar use. Ford will eventually replace the Taurus platform.

Therefore CD3, (Mazda derived) will replace many sedan offering's, spawn minivans, CUV's, etc.

figueroafamily

I wondered if anybody received the infamous Freestyle brochure. Ford Reps told me it would be under 4 weeks after the NY Auto Show. It's now week 6.

I think it'll come tomorrow, as I wonder about it today.

Sam

johnclineii

Well, I've been waiting since Detroit, and I was told the same thing!

I doubt it comes tomorrow.

I have asked again and again when the press embargo ends, but even the answer to that question seems to be embargoed!

ANT14

Yes, there's embargo's, on embargo's.

Ever see the 1980's movie with Tom Hanks, and Shelly Long called "The Money Pit".... About a newly engaged couple buying a house that was a disaster...They were remodeling while planning a wedding, and when asking the contractor (every other day) "when will the house be ready" ... They would all say... "Two weeks!"

Yet, weeks and months would pass by, and yet they still would repeat... "Two Weeks!"

Well I'll be nicer, I won't tell you "Two weeks". :-)

figueroafamily

I for got to my comment about "coming in tomorrow".

I visited my nearby Ford dealer, and asked about it. They don't have a clue either. The person I talked to normally was out. The gal who helped me was courteous and new-at-job. I gave HER a full pitch on the Freestyle, AND tidbits on Freestar, AND another tidbit on Explorer.

I could had sold one!

Fortunately for my intelligence gathering, they had a 8.5x11 card with some descriptions on Freestyle. It had color swatches, which was my main objective. (It doesn't have cladding colors, though.)

ANT14, "two weeks" means August (given a July Job One date)...

Sam

jchan2

and I'm still waiting. They said it would be a short wait. Depends on how they define "short".

odie6l

I stopped at the dealer where I bought my '01 Escape XLT to see if they had (or were going to be getting) the book on the freestyle yet. The answer I got from 4 (FOUR) salespersons, and the sales manager was "What's the Freestyle?, We haven't even heard of that model yet." I just said to all them, "Well I just proved how untrust worthy this dealership is, so I guess I will be purchasing from another dealer." and walked out.
2 hours later I got a phone call the the owner of the dealership stating "That the only infomation they had received on the Freestyle was only the name of the vehicle Also he was very sorry for the attutude that I had gotten from his staff, and to make it up to me, if I am to purchase a Freestyle from them, I will receive FREE Gas for 3 months after purchase. And to hope that the response I got from his sales person's would not tarnish the relationship that the dealer and myself had worked hard on forming."

rcf8000

I am continually amazed at how little car salesmen know about what they're selling, especially since they have lots of time on their hands to study the subject. I recently took a test drive in an Acura MDX, and the salesman told me all kinds of things about the car that I new to be false. When challenged, he said he was positive he was correct. I don't mind salesmen that don't know the facts so much as those who are certain of incorrect facts. It's a real turnoff. I got a phone call later from the guy's boss telling me to deal with him from now on.

ANT14

Odie, you tell that sales manager, that he SHOULD have received the ordering guide already. And for MONTHS they have received information pertaining to the vehicle. What it's about? What the emphansize is. What the market and demographics is composed of, etc. ALL that information, they should have already received it, studied it, absorbed it, meditated with it, and by now they should be having orgasms over it.

This is TOTALLY unexcusable, and if they are THAT dumbfounded over this alleged "Freestyle" vehicle, than they need to contact the head office and wonder WHERE all this information has been shipped to, and why they haven't received it.

AND, to ram the point home, ALL they need to do is go online to the Ford Website, for them to see it themselves. Or even these sort of websites like Edmunds.com

At this stage of the game as I mentioned, it's unexcusable that they do not have this information. And my guess is, they are probably playing stupid, incase a customer coming in TODAY walks out with another vehicle, and not wait for the Freestyle itseld....Since they want a profit, TODAY, not months from now.

jchan2

why do the dealers know so little? Just log on to Ford's website, click on future vehicles and take a peek at the Freestyle. They should have received the ordering guide by now too, as I have it sitting in a paper tray on my desk at home and I don't work, manage or own a Ford dealer.

odie6l

well, I just filled out my entry for the Phil's on the Phone contest where you can win a 2005 Freestyle. In the Rules it has the freestyle listed as a SEL model and had a ARV of $29,000. From what I gather at the Ford website, there are only 2 models the SEL and the Limited. Hopefully with the incentives (if any) the price may come down some.

Odie

jchan2

according to my ordering information from fordaxz.com, there's three trim lines, a SE, SEL and Limited.

odie6l

that was my goof. I'm still peeved at the salespeople.... Grrrr.

Odie

jchan2

would rather have you sign and drive one of their excellent Freestars sitting on the lot rather than wait a few months for a Freestyle.

johnclineii

Money today is better than money perhaps someday (perhaps never). You got to remember salespeople are not car geeks with a happy job. They are people trying to make a living, secondarily interested in cars, if at ALL!

ANT14

So do my sub-contracted tile laying worker's....But damn there's a huge difference when someone takes pride in their work, and does an excellent job laying the tiles. Granted, first thing I tell any worker... "If you don't like your job and take pride in it, you will NOT work for me"

So if these salespeople do not like their job, either LET someone else sell the vehicle, or look for another job they will like.

In this case, there were 4 salespeople he spoke to ?? That's quite a few who dislike their jobs all within the same space. Would love to see them on a monday morning....

jchan2

the dealer has already bought the Freestar, whereas they still haven't paid for thier allotment of Freestyles.

mgpmgp

When is production of the Duratec 35 slated to start? Will it be offered as an option or standard on the 2006 Freestyle/Five Hundred? Any chance it may appear in mid-2005 for the AWD Freestyle?

ANT14

If you scroll quite a bit back, you'll find these answers.

Production date not set, but it'll first debut in the next Lincoln Aviator. Yes, it'll be an option.

jchan2

do you have an estimate for how much the DURATEC 35 will cost over a standard Duratec 30?

ANT14

It'll probably be grouped as a trim level option, along with some other toys as well. But my personal questimate, maybe $300-400 over the standard issue.

figueroafamily

We're talking about Freestyle 2006 (2007?) options. However, we don't even have a Freestyle 2005. Not even the brochure!



Sam

PS - Salesdude/dudette ignorance is surprising to me as well.

ANT14

Yep I know, and you might actually have people waiting FOR the Duratec35 to become available when it's still some years off. BY the time it does become available, they would have already bought something else altogether.

figueroafamily

ANT14:

Yes, I would be on that 35 bandwagon. However,

(Pity party violin sound track starts
My Contour was in heavy NYC-bound traffic this morning. Or should I say "heavy parking lot"? It got between "normal" and "red" in the temp gage.

My mechanic doesn't want to see me with that thing as well.
(Pity party violin sound track ends

Chances are that in three months I'll add Freestyle pictures to my webshots.com collection. My Freestyle's.

Sam

ANT14

Are you wanting to fix the Countour from it heating up ?

Possible solutions: Replace the thermostat, or replace the radiator, or replace the heater core, or replace the fan cluth. Should be the most common solutions to it.

Then you'll buy yourself a few months till the next vehicle.

mgpmgp

Since Ford is developing 6 speed transmissions in cooperation with GM, it seems that they will have plenty of 6 speeds in the future. I also read that the 6-speed is slightly more efficient than the CVT. If that is the case does that mean that Freestyles/500's with a CVT will soon become a thing of the past, as the 6-speeds are rolled out? What would be the motivation for keeping them around, especially considering that next year a lot of Freestyle buyers will likely be getting Duratec 35's which have too much torque for the current CVT, plus as I said, the 6-speed is slightly more efficient. Is the current CVT just a temporary fix until the 6-speeds being developed become more widely available?

johnclineii

I don't see why when the Five Hundred's base transmission is the six speed (with the SAME engine as the Freestyle).

I have NOT read that the six speed is more fuel efficient than the CVT. Are you SURE about this?

ANT14

Yes, they'll be different versions of 6 Speed automatics..Some for RWD vehicles, other's for FWD vehicles... AND within each sector, you will have one or 2, that are for lighter applications, and one for heavier applications.

I can tell you this, the CVT will not at all be a thing of the past, if anything, we might be seeing more products with CVT. I myself prefer IVT such as Torotrak (Torotrack.com I believe is the website). The CVT is more fuel efficient over the 6 speed auto. (I believe 1-2MPG better overall-Guestimate here).

Two current CVT's exsist, the CVT23 and CVT30, CVT can handle up to 169 lbs.ft.tq. and the CVT30 can handle up to 221 lbs.ft.tq. The last 2 numbers will tell you the designating engine it'll be applied to.

There are CVT's that can handle more torque, and when the Duratec35 becomes available, there is one that can handle it's torque. There's "talk" between Ford and Nissan to buy their CVT which is in the Murano for example, which can handle more torque than the current CVT's Ford has. Or Ford's current one's can be tailored to meet higher torque capacities with minor modifications.

Expect to see more CVT's available in more passenger cars as they are released. but of course, depending upon how consumer's warm up to them, will tell if they are accepted if not. Either way, 6speed or CVT, you have "1st in segment" options to look forward to.

jchan2

that's good news. Higher MPG numbers!

odie6l

I thought starting with 2005MY ALL new SUV's have to make a minimum of 22 MPG city. I remember hearding something of the sorts on CNN about a year ago.

Odie

stever

"The standards for all light trucks manufactured is set at 21.0 mpg for MY 2005, 21.6 mpg for MY 2006, and 22.2 mpg for MY 2007. This rule is effective May 5, 2003."

Office of Automotive Affairs

Steve, Host

jchan2

is that the average number, or is that the city MPG number?

johnclineii

As detailed in the web site mentioned, it is the corporate AVERAGE required for the light truck fleet per manufacturer...subject to certain provisions too intricate and arcane to be discussed here by the likes of me!

jchan2

lol. All that means is that big SUV automakers like GM, Toyota and Ford have to cut back production of thier heaviest SUV models (the ones that guzzle gas) and sell more smaller ones. There's no rocket science to it. Just cut back the mix of Tahoes, Escalades, Navigators, LX470s, Pathfinder Armadas produced and sold while increasing production and rebates on models like the Escape Hybrid, Escape, Tribute, RX330, Highlander, RAV4, VUEs, Equinox's, etc.

lbolt22

ZF's nomenclature for their CVTs is CFT23 and CFT30. The last 2 digits do not apply to the engine, but rather to the rated torque capacity of the transaxle. The CFT23 can handle 230Nm input and the CFT30 can handle 300Nm (recall ZF is a German company and English units mean nothing to the mighty Germans).

Though the final fuel economy numbers are not yet certified by EPA, I sincerely doubt there will be a 1-2MPG Metro-Highway improvement with the CVT. It would be a miracle. Yes, other CVTs in other cars have shown a typical 7% improvement over a 4 or 5 speed automatic. But the Freestyle and 500 compare against a 6 speed. And the CVT calibration was heavily modified for smoothness. And it trumps the 6-speed by a considerable margin in that category. So customers will not flock to the CVT because of the fuel economy benefits, but rather because of how comparatively smooth it is. 6 speeds are not so fun when they're continually shifting.

I agree that CVTs are not going away. Soon they're going to put the durability question to rest, and people are going to start wondering how they tolerated automatic shifts, when CVTs can be so much smoother.

ANT14

I prefer IVT's myself such as Torotrak. Luckily Ford has been working with them through their latest developments.

The 6 Speed Auto will be programmed so it's not shifting all the time. All will depend upon the how much pressure the driver places upon the peddle (drive by wire). I've had a new XJ on my hands for a few weeks and it's transmission isn't kept busy, let alone, you don't even notice it most of the time when it's gear hunting.

All of course will depend on how smooth the shifts will be.

johnclineii

It's not just smoothness...it's also power. All along, you and others have said the CVT delivers a torque curve such that acceleration is greatly improved compared to other cars with the same power ratings....

jchan2

Ford claims a MPG boost.

ANT14

The CVT allows it to take advantage of the torque curve, and will keep you at the proper RPM to attain it. And all the lack of shifting also helps as well.

It's pretty ease, you slam the gas, look at the RPM shoot up to around 4800-5600 RPM (depending how much pressure your putting, and power your needing). Then watch the tachometer stay there till you reach the speed you need. Then depress the gas peddle, and the RPM's decrease till your at the speed your need.