I had a customer in on Saturday and I asked her about the whole experience.
She related to me that she had sent out 7 inquiries. Two didn't even respond at all...two came back with "come on in and lets talk"...two had vague pricing...and one provided detailed pricing for the entire transaction.
But - but - LOTS of people bound from topic to topic, and lots of people (no doubt including myself) begin to sound the same after a while.
To prove a point, may I quote some "Isellhonda'"isms: "My parents didn't raise me that way" - (if a buyer decides not to buy even after a dealer met his price)
"The market determines the price" - if people complain about ADM and similar nonsense
"Why waste time running all over town to save $100" - if people talk about comparing prices
"If I gave a written quote you'd just run out and shop out, wouldn't you." - to excuse not responding to e-mail requests for a quote.
"Yawn..." (although I haven't seen that one from you in a while.)
...and more.
Have a policy disagreement, fine. Just don't insult other posters, is all I'm asking.
Does that mean a dealer doesn't know anything about business?
Of course not, how did you get that? Note key word "also" in my second sentence. Just two different business perspectives, one from dealer point of view and one from more of a behavior-science point of view. Both are valuable.
Before this post from jmurman gets lost in the shuffle, wanted to say good work, there. Sounds like you were the one to respond with detailed pricing, right?
And that's the way to get the internet job done. Pity that's not more widely understood.
Good for you for understanding the internet customer.
And that's the way to get the internet job done. Pity that's not more widely understood.
Good for you for understanding the internet customer.
And I suspect that he will earn more money than do other dealers who ignore the needs of the online customer. Not only did he generate one sale, but he has probably laid the groundwork for other sales. It's a double whammy to the dealers in his area because by his closing that deal, it took away at least one deal away from the rest of them.
The thing is, I'll bet that it wasn't even a rock-bottom price. I'd bet for many customers, the appearance of fairness and a forthcoming approach will yield a higher closing rate than would a different approach.
That raises an interesting approach Socala, I would agree that the appearance of fairness and straight forwardness would put more customers at ease and be willing to reach a compromise on a price rather than dig in and fight for the rock bottom.
It reminds me when I bought my Olds back in 2001, the internet salesman was very informative answered all my questions and even pointed out options for me, and listed his inventory. We went back about 4-5 times over what car, what options etc the guy was a professional real service orientated and you can tell he has been doing this a long time, he had that very soft touch, if you know what i mean.
When it came to price he clearly stated that he was purely "internet" sales, this was designed as a no-haggle policy for customers wanting this experience and if I felt I could do better I could come in and negotiate with a floor guy of my choosing or he would recommend one.
They guy had gained my confidence and I felt it was fair eneough then trying to come in and get another few hundered dollars. Good food for thought.
It reminds me when I bought my Olds back in 2001, the internet salesman was very informative answered all my questions and even pointed out options for me, and listed his inventory. We went back about 4-5 times over what car, what options etc the guy was a professional real service orientated and you can tell he has been doing this a long time, he had that very soft touch, if you know what i mean.
When it came to price he clearly stated that he was purely "internet" sales, this was designed as a no-haggle policy for customers wanting this experience and if I felt I could do better I could come in and negotiate with a floor guy of my choosing or he would recommend one.
The guy had gained my confidence and I felt it was fair eneough then trying to come in and get another few hundered dollars.
I could be wrong, but my theory here is that the average online buyer (a) may claim to be price-focused, but is probably balancing a price orientation with convenience/ desire to reduce hassle, and (b) the buyer is afraid that chasing a lower offer from another dealer might prove to be a waste of time, which inclines him to go with the deal that is most easily closed.
Yes, there are some buyers who will drive 100 miles to save $100, but many won't, in part because they have their doubts that they'll get the $100 from the other dealer (bait-and-switch.) The internet salesperson should take advantage of this general mistrust of car dealers, and make themselves trustworthy in order to gain the upper hand. I just wonder whether that's a great strategy for someone like the Range Rover dealership that does such low volumes, because they might leave a lot of money on the table that they can't earn back from someone else.
Before this post from jmurman gets lost in the shuffle, wanted to say good work, there. Sounds like you were the one to respond with detailed pricing, right?
And that's the way to get the internet job done. Pity that's not more widely understood.
jmurman is a very good guy and if you are in the market for a car and are out his way I would strongly recommend you contact him.
The internet salesperson should take advantage of this general mistrust of car dealers, and make themselves trustworthy in order to gain the upper hand.
socala I never thought I would hear you say that a car salesperson could be Trustworthy!!
Yes, there are some buyers who will drive 100 miles to save $100
Yeah they are called "socala"!! We discussed earlier that even if I offered you a upfront number a couple hundred over invoice in a NO hassle way you would still shop!
Yeah they are called "socala"!! We discussed earlier that even if I offered you a upfront number a couple hundred over invoice in a NO hassle way you would still shop!
Actually, I made the opposite point, so I'm not sure why you've said this. I specifically told you that my goal is to pay at the bottom end of the price range, and that if you meet that price, I will close the deal because I don't believe that further investment of my time elsewhere would improve my payoff or return.
But here's the caveat -- the ways of negotiation tell you that the first offer is not usually going to be the best available deal. It is very rare for parties to make take-it-or-leave-it offers that are truly firm, very few people leave all their money on the table during the first round.
However, if they go against the grain and actually do make the best-and-final during Round 1 and if I recognize this offer as being a true best-and-final, then I will move forward with the close. That being said, if you offer me a $200 over invoice deal, chances are very high that it is possible to pay less without much effort.
What about when a person comes in and says "give me your best deal no games" I come back with my best deal, and try to haggle more?
I'm not sure what you mean, so I hope this answers your question:
I personally would tend to avoid language such as "no games" because it would make me sound as if I am intimidated by the natural negotiation process. A person who firmly proclaims "Don't play games with me!" is obviously nervous and highly uncomfortable with the negotiation process, and is highly unlikely to get the "best and final" price that he is demanding. (After all, why would you give your best deal to someone who is obviously afraid of you? Fear is a total turn-off to most everyone.)
As I said earlier, if you give me a deal that is a best-and-final that is truly at the lowest end of the market price range, then I will take it. Obviously, that means that I would have to recognize this price as being the best that I can get (within the entire marketplace, not just from you), which means the burden is on me to do my homework before I turn up at the dealership.
But really, how often do you give your best price during Round 1 just because somebody asks for it? That pretty much goes against the grain of how negotiation usually works (not just for cars, but for everything in life.)
Our auto group recently had a meeting of all the different sales managers to talk about different internet sales stratagies. I was not at the meeting but both our managers were.
During part of the meeting all the managers were asked to describe how they offered a quote to a customer looking for one on a new car. Basicly they wanted a run down about how quotes were given and if there were any basic rules they followed.
They went around the room and various stores said such and such over invoice minus rebates or a certin precent over invoice minus rebate. A few said that for certain vehicles they would quote a little more since that car was in particular demand. Nobody is quoting 500 bucks over invoice for an SRT-8 anything or an STI for example.
Then on particular franchise got up and said they are quoting all internet deals at invoice minus all rebates.
OUCH
I never want to be in that situation.
Anyway then our managers got up.
Well we usually start at MSRP for everything except V6 LR3s. Maybe we will give 500-1000 off other vehicles except for the Range Rover Sport those are all sold at MSRP so no way we are going to discount them on the internet or off.
"I'd bet for many customers, the appearance of fairness and a forthcoming approach will yield a higher closing rate than would a different approach."
Socal, I think you may be exactly right. If an internet sales person gives a pretty decent price with no hassle, there may a good chance of making the sale.
I got great from a dealer. When I mentioned it to another internet manager, she wants me to send her a copy of the e-mail showing the details of the deal so that she will offer a better deal. I am not sure if this is the right thing to do. Any thoughts
I wouldn't send her a copy of the e-mail. Just tell her what deal you want, using an out-the-door price. If her offer then beats the other one, fine. If not, then go with the offer in hand.
Just make sure you're comparing apples with apples. Ask for both offers to include ALL fees, so that you don't end up "saving" on the price of the car only to be hit with a $300 "doc fee" or some such thing when time comes to sign the purchase order.
"And I suspect that he will earn more money than do other dealers who ignore the needs of the online customer. Not only did he generate one sale, but he has probably laid the groundwork for other sales. It's a double whammy to the dealers in his area because by his closing that deal, it took away at least one deal away from the rest of them.
The thing is, I'll bet that it wasn't even a rock-bottom price. I'd bet for many customers, the appearance of fairness and a forthcoming approach will yield a higher closing rate than would a different approach."
Yes and no with this statement. Obviously we have to be competitive. I have to be within the range of everyone else, or it doesn't matter what I send to the customer I wont get the sale.
Yes you are right about fairness and forthcoming...you can't imagine the struggles we had about this. "After all if you give everything up, then all they wil do is shop you." I heard this alot, and having the responsibility for a Dept that spends and receives HUGE amounts of money, it wasn't an easy decision. However, the full results won't be seen until this Spring when business really starts picking up.
"During part of the meeting all the managers were asked to describe how they offered a quote to a customer looking for one on a new car. Basicly they wanted a run down about how quotes were given and if there were any basic rules they followed.
They went around the room and various stores said such and such over invoice minus rebates or a certin precent over invoice minus rebate. A few said that for certain vehicles they would quote a little more since that car was in particular demand. Nobody is quoting 500 bucks over invoice for an SRT-8 anything or an STI for example.
Then on particular franchise got up and said they are quoting all internet deals at invoice minus all rebates.
OUCH
I never want to be in that situation.
Anyway then our managers got up.
Well we usually start at MSRP for everything except V6 LR3s. Maybe we will give 500-1000 off other vehicles except for the Range Rover Sport those are all sold at MSRP so no way we are going to discount them on the internet or off. "
I guess that you have to do what you have to do.
Me personally and my Dept...we look at a car purchase as nothing more than a large metal loaf of bread. I give you my best deal up front and do it in such a way that you have NO questions regarding price.
So, if you come back with "X dealer says they'll do $X...will you match it." The difference shouldn't be much, and to be honest with you, we don't want to use our Dept to negotiate.
Negotiations take time and when you are set up to do volume...time is your biggest commidity. We also don't want to take our time to help a customer decide between Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Ford etc. I figure that being a "reasonably intelligent Internet customer", you should have already finished your research and are now in one of the purchasing phases.
Lately I've had more and more internet shoppers who have no idea which car they are looking for...just price shopping in advance. This creates a lot more work for me, giving multiple quotes to the same person only to have them come in asking for a test drive; I'm about at the point where I'll turn them over to the regular sales guys and tell the customer that my price is gone, deal with it.
I can understand price shopping in advance...to a degree. You have to know what you can afford and whats going to be out of your range.
Why look at Mercedes if your budget is Honda?
Now as far as multiple quotes to the same person...I see this with some people too. We have a system at work which lets you know if a person has received a past quote. This is pretty helpful if you now get a rash of requests for every model in a particular vehicle.
After you've done your part and have sent out a couple of quotes then it wouldn't be out of line (in my opinion) to ask for a phone conversation. If they call, then you probably have an interested customer, if they don't then all you're out is some time. Keep in mind that a lot of customers are not in the 72 hr mold as the floor guys are geared for...Internet customers will start shopping about 90 days before their purchase...so expect multiple requests for quotes and for test drives.
Here is where you need to relax and offer service...it's all you've got.
Most of the information needed is available from the manufacturer and sources such as Edmunds, there's no need to go to a dealer for it when you're 90 days out unless you're looking at something that has to be ordered. Rebates, incentives and inventories change monthly.
We also don't want to take our time to help a customer decide between Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Ford etc. I figure that being a "reasonably intelligent Internet customer", you should have already finished your research and are now in one of the purchasing phases.
So how does one get to the point of deciding what car they want. Do you expect them to contact regular sales staff for a test drive and then contact you for the price? Or should they contact you, not asking about price but just say they want to test drive model X?
"So how does one get to the point of deciding what car they want. Do you expect them to contact regular sales staff for a test drive and then contact you for the price? Or should they contact you, not asking about price but just say they want to test drive model X? "
Good question and a valid one. We have no problem in setting up a test drive for a customer, none what so ever...however, these should be done during the week and not on the weekend. When you do test drives during the week, you will usually have the time to spend checking everything out and the Salesman/Internet Rep can take the time to answer any questions you might have.
What is irritating is when customers just show up during the busiest time of the week and say they want to drive a few cars, and that their buying schedule is a couple of months down the road. They will also want to go over interest rates and trade in figures.
I tell my guys that Saturdays (we are closed on Sundays as are all dealerships here) are days for deliveries. Set up your deals during the week and deliveries for Saturday.
Most customes when they come into our dealership on a Saturday are blown away at how busy we are, and appreciate the allocation of time to take care of them. Our delievries last from 1hr to 1/2 hrs from start to finish.
In the past month I had test driven about 10 vehicles before we purchased one. I used the internet guy on all occasions. sometimes the internet guy brought the car around and gave me the keys, sometimes I was handed over to a floor salesman who either took my license and gave me the keys or actually went on the test drive with me.
We ended up buying through the internet guy. This particular dealership was one of the stores that had the floor guy spend time test driving with me and showing the features.
My question is: Did this floor salesperson get paid for his time?
"My question is: Did this floor salesperson get paid for his time?"
Yes, they split the deal. Probably he guy who wrote it up got credit for the unit and the other guys just got some money...but that usually how it works.
We have customers who ask this all the time, they like th guy who answers their questions via email promptly and themn the person who helps them if the original guy is busy or off.
Unit credits are applied towards monthly bonuses and overall pay.
I wondered that too. Personally, I'd go with the first deal if it seemed to check out ok; guess what the person is doing is making sure that it does indeed check out ok.
And that's why I wouldn't tell the second guy exactly what the first offer is. Second guy can make his own offer; if it doesn't beat the first one then you know where to buy.
(Mack, did you ever find out about long-ish term Solara rentals at your shop? Say a month or two?)
Is that the famed Bobst, of years gone by? The man that told me five years ago that I should walk out on every negotiation with a car salesman (even when I was close to buying) because that was the only way to make sure it was the rock bottom price. And, that I should plan on spending several days on negotiations with several different dealers?
Actually Bob, I kind of admire your strength of conviction even if I don't agree with that conviction.
In fairness to Bob, I have gone through some of the salesman silliness years ago when I was in my twenties (1980's)trying to buy my first few new cars. I think the industry has come a long,long way from those days. today, I never see the fake argument between the salesman and the manager about "giving these cars away". I actually had a salesman "inadvertently" pushed the intercom button on his phone before he left his office in order to listen to my wife and I talk privately.
But, in my experiences over the last 12 years of buying cars, that stuff is ancient history! internet buying further removed us from that crap. today's salesmen have been nothing but straight forward and forth coming with me. my perception of the industry may have to do with the fact that I am now 45 years old, drive on the lot in an upscale vehicle and I am ready to buy after I narrow down the field to one or two cars.
Bobst, have you tried buying from the internet guy?
Before we bought our last car, I sent around Emails to the local dealers to see of they had the car we wanted in stock, but I didn't mention a price. That was done in person.
Maybe the sales people treat you differently because you are older and look like you know what you are doing.
I am curious, Why didn't you ask for a price from the internet guy?
It has really streamlined the whole process for me. I was looking for an upscale wagon for my wife, but couldn't find a wagon I liked at a price I liked. bought an Acura TL with no negotiation for a price well below edmunds TMV. The price paid was actually below what a co worker paid at the same dealership a couple of months ago. There are no options to speak of on a TL (non-navi)so this was an apples to apples comparison. He spent a couple of evenings and I spent a couple of hours tops.
The internet guy gave me a price after two emails (and I called him once). He didn't know if I was 25 or 65 years old, so I assume you could do the same even if you are still a young guy.
I Agree that not being 25 helps when you go to the floor guy, but what does a person who "knows what he is doing" look like?
In the emails, I didn't mention a price that I was willing to pay, but, to be honest, I did ask them if they had a price in mind. A couple of them sent me prices, but they were kind of high so I didn't take them seriously.
I went to the dealer that was most convenient, offered a price, and they accepted.
"what does a person who 'knows what he is doing' look like?"
What does an absolutely captivating woman look like? You just know her when you see her.
Maybe the sales people treat you differently because you are older and look like you know what you are doing.
We all have our circumstances and cards that we have been dealth, and on the whole, I see no distinction between the results that can be obtained by anyone, whether male or female, young or old, black, white or purple, or whatever.
If you are a good negotiator, you will determine what your apparent, obvious "disadvantages" are, and turn them to your advantage. For example, when buying my first new car as a long-haired, obviously young 20-year old, I had the F&I guy do the usual "salesman made a mistake/ we're off by $500/ let's split the baby in half, OK?" gimmick on me.
I could have felt bullied because I was a kid, but instead, I leveraged this. My retort -- I'm just a kid in college with a part-time job, and I simply don't have the extra money. No need to tell him to pound sand, I just pled poverty and apologized that I didn't have another dime. How on earth could he possibly pull money out of someone with a pitch like that?
Don't overestimated the value of playing dumb (or at least appearing to be a bit naive) when cutting a deal. The urge to prove that you are intelligent is an urge that you should repress when you are dealing in these situations. Don't go out of your way to actually be stupid, but letting the other guy believe you are will make him vulnerable and be helpful to you in getting better intelligence on your opponent. The best way to get the other guy to mind what he says is to prove to him that you know how to use information against him.
A friend of mine has an in law in his family that is the owner of a major car dealership group. Last time i was in the market for a car, he gave this guy a call and arranged for me to make an appointment with the sales manager for one of his dealerships and arrange a deal (thereby skipping the 'hassle' of the traditional buying experience and supposedly getting a special deal). When I got to this dealer, they 'foisted' me off on some green salesman, and I feel i did not get a good deal as anyone else would have (in other words, there was no special deal that anyone else could have received if they were just some joe off the street). I ended up going to another dealership that was not associated with this group. The question is: Does it make any difference one way or the other with "who you know" or not as far as getting a good deal?
...given your own anecdote. Of course, you weren't really close with the owner (the friend of an in-law), so the owner probably didn't care one way or another. If you were a close friend I imagine it would have been much different.
The question is: Does it make any difference one way or the other with "who you know" or not as far as getting a good deal?
I guess it depends on the person and the dealership. If I "know somebody" ...I let them know I'm probably not going to be the lowest price in a 5000 mile radius..but I can make the process very fair, quick, simple, tansparent and honest and fun...Alot of folks like to feel good when they drive away in their new car, and I make sure that happens....OTOH, the guy who 'knows me' and wants to grind the last dollar out of the deal and be a royal pain isnt going to get much out out of me.
I would agree that it sounds as if you didn't have enough of a relationship with the dealer to get any favors sent your way.
But most people don't, and I believe that this effort to get a short cut around the sales system by hoping that "friendship" will reduce hassle is misguided. If anything, it creates more hassle, as you come away disappointed when you realize that the effort was in vain from the start.
Here's my advice -- aside from avoiding the very worst dealers, don't bother looking for the "best" dealership or the "most honest" salesman, as you need neither in order to get a very good deal. The salesman can be good, bad or indifferent, it really doesn't matter -- at the end of the day, a well-managed negotiation will get you a low price and favorable terms, IF you know what you're doing.
My priority would be to buy from the dealership that (a) has the car on its lot and (b) is convenient to your home or office. If the service department there is good, so much the better.
Remember -- from the dealer's standpoint, the purpose of a "relationship" is to get you to replace your logic with emotion, and to increase his profits in some way, shape or form. Unless you're buying cars in bulk (which you obviously aren't), forget trying to make the salesman your friend, and just buy the car for as little as possible. There is no need to either get into a fistfight or shouting match on the showroom floor, or to become the sales manager's golfing buddy in order to get a good deal.
I would agree that it sounds as if you didn't have enough of a relationship with the dealer to get any favors sent your way.
I guess the real measure was my friends relationship with his inlaw that owned the dealership group.
The salesman can be good, bad or indifferent, it really doesn't matter -- at the end of the day, a well-managed negotiation will get you a low price and favorable terms, IF you know what you're doing.
The problem was I didn't exactly know what i was doing, as this was my first car negotiation on my own. I relied on my friend and his family member who owned the dealership to 'take care of me' so to speak. Anyway it turned out ok at the dealership that I ended up going to. One of the reasons I went to the first dealership was I was worried that someone would pull the old "you are approved at x percent" and then after delivery a week later say "oops, you are not approved" ruse from a dealership I didn't know.
I work with a guy who does not appreciate internet buying.
The friends referal to a dealer isn't always what it seems.
I live in a state where hockey is a big deal. Our public relations guy at work is a local hockey legend. Every time the news needs a hockey expert "Billy" is on t.v.. Every time a group needs a dynamic speaker, Billy gets a call. He is a cottage industry unto him self, a great part time job for sure. Everywhere I go with Billy, people come up and talk to him. Going to lunch gets actually bothersome.
Many people he knows, and friends of friends of friends of people he knows are always asking to get set up to buy big ticket items through Billy's connections. Requests to be set up to get a deal on a car are the most common. Billy knows almost all of the car dealers in town personally. You need a cadillac, Billy has "a guy". You want a Honda, Billy has "a Guy". Any car you want..Billy has a guy.
I talked to him about it one day and I said that it was very nice of him to set all those people up with deals...and Billy chuckled..you see the people may be getting a reasonably good price without the any hassles, but more importantly to Billy....he was getting a $100 for each car sold. He told me things have slowed down in last few years because alot of the people that want the no-hassle car purchase were just going through the internet sales guys.
I guess the Moral is... even the good guy, local heros still like to make a buck.
One of the reasons I went to the first dealership was I was worried that someone would pull the old "you are approved at x percent" and then after delivery a week later say "oops, you are not approved" ruse from a dealership I didn't know.
Your concerns are totally fair, and I think your anecdote nicely illustrates how trying to dodge bullets by relying on someone who has been recommended is likely to get you shot.
There is a game to car sales, and I think we all have a few choices:
-Feel resigned to it, and get taken to the cleaners because we feel like victims who are baffled by the whole thing
-Deny it, and try to get around the system by expecting friendship and compassion to intervene, only to no avail
-Fight it, creating unnecessary hostility (and in the process of doing so, alerting the dealer to our tactics and giving him more information about our methods that he will then incorporate into his tactics)
-Embrace it, and play it as well as possible
or
-Walk, take the bus, or otherwise avoid buying a car
If you live in Manhattan, you might get away with the last option, but otherwise, you're stuck with the others. I say have fun with it, get a low price and good terms, and then have some good war stories to share with your friends (whom you can afford to take to dinner because of the money you saved.)
I am in the process of (in the next two months or so)of buying a new Chrysler PT Cruiser Touring Signature Series. After studying the MSRP and Invoice prices at Edmunds and several other sites (all about the same as far as being close to each other) with all of the same additional options, I then went to the Chysler home page and typed in the zip code for my area and it gave me about five nearby dealerships. Then, after checking these dealerships inventory, I sent Emails to all four of the five that had exactly what I am looking for. All four responded...one with an offer of $200.00 below invoice....the second with an offer of 1% below invoice ( that's about $200.00 below invoice, also). The third Emailed me an OTD price ( and even after my computations with tax,plus $40.00 tag xfer fee,doc.fee,Fla. disposal fee, etc. (the offer was too high so I eliminated them.) The fourth was quickly eliminated due to the fact they wanted to set up an immediate appointment without any figure involved. (I specifically had asked for pricing in the original message)! I the Emailed the $200.00 below invoice dealer for a breakdown of "any additional costs". They responded with a complete breakdown. The only obstacle at this time is the fact they have a $499.00 "dealer prep" fee! As of this writing I have Emailed them back stating that I will purchase said vehicle "providing that they eliminate the $499.00 "prep" fee. There is also a $1500.00 rebate at this time on the PT until July 2nd. Stayed tuned to see what response I receive!!!! I firmly believe that using the internet saves a buyer a lot of time and "hassle" as long as they do their research first by checking the model desired, prices, specs of vehicle,what options you want and of course the dealership inventory of the model and options that you desire. I have already taken a "test drive" of exactly whay I am interested in received a PT Cruiser brochure to recheck the model and options that I want...(also the color I want). Will follow-up this long novel when I receive an answer from the dealership internet salesperson.
Received the dealer reply and he explained that the $499.00 prep fee was their way of covering the costs of paperwok, dealership costs, etc., etc. I can understand his reply, but I emailed back that I would shop around to see if any other Chrysler dealer was willing to forego such an exuberant fee. And I will do same.
Comments
I had a customer in on Saturday and I asked her about the whole experience.
She related to me that she had sent out 7 inquiries. Two didn't even respond at all...two came back with "come on in and lets talk"...two had vague pricing...and one provided detailed pricing for the entire transaction.
Guess which one she bought.
And we get sick of him/her bounding from forum to forum spouting off with his/her "expert" advise.
To prove a point, may I quote some "Isellhonda'"isms:
"My parents didn't raise me that way" - (if a buyer decides not to buy even after a dealer met his price)
"The market determines the price" - if people complain about ADM and similar nonsense
"Why waste time running all over town to save $100" - if people talk about comparing prices
"If I gave a written quote you'd just run out and shop out, wouldn't you." - to excuse not responding to e-mail requests for a quote.
"Yawn..." (although I haven't seen that one from you in a while.)
...and more.
Have a policy disagreement, fine. Just don't insult other posters, is all I'm asking.
I like a little edge *snicker*
There's a difference?
Does that mean a dealer doesn't know anything about business?
My idea of pure hell is be a place where everyone agrees with me.
Of course not, how did you get that? Note key word "also" in my second sentence. Just two different business perspectives, one from dealer point of view and one from more of a behavior-science point of view. Both are valuable.
And thank you, bobst.
And that's the way to get the internet job done. Pity that's not more widely understood.
Good for you for understanding the internet customer.
Good for you for understanding the internet customer.
And I suspect that he will earn more money than do other dealers who ignore the needs of the online customer. Not only did he generate one sale, but he has probably laid the groundwork for other sales. It's a double whammy to the dealers in his area because by his closing that deal, it took away at least one deal away from the rest of them.
The thing is, I'll bet that it wasn't even a rock-bottom price. I'd bet for many customers, the appearance of fairness and a forthcoming approach will yield a higher closing rate than would a different approach.
It reminds me when I bought my Olds back in 2001, the internet salesman was very informative answered all my questions and even pointed out options for me, and listed his inventory. We went back about 4-5 times over what car, what options etc the guy was a professional real service orientated and you can tell he has been doing this a long time, he had that very soft touch, if you know what i mean.
When it came to price he clearly stated that he was purely "internet" sales, this was designed as a no-haggle policy for customers wanting this experience and if I felt I could do better I could come in and negotiate with a floor guy of my choosing or he would recommend one.
They guy had gained my confidence and I felt it was fair eneough then trying to come in and get another few hundered dollars. Good food for thought.
When it came to price he clearly stated that he was purely "internet" sales, this was designed as a no-haggle policy for customers wanting this experience and if I felt I could do better I could come in and negotiate with a floor guy of my choosing or he would recommend one.
The guy had gained my confidence and I felt it was fair eneough then trying to come in and get another few hundered dollars.
I could be wrong, but my theory here is that the average online buyer (a) may claim to be price-focused, but is probably balancing a price orientation with convenience/ desire to reduce hassle, and (b) the buyer is afraid that chasing a lower offer from another dealer might prove to be a waste of time, which inclines him to go with the deal that is most easily closed.
Yes, there are some buyers who will drive 100 miles to save $100, but many won't, in part because they have their doubts that they'll get the $100 from the other dealer (bait-and-switch.) The internet salesperson should take advantage of this general mistrust of car dealers, and make themselves trustworthy in order to gain the upper hand. I just wonder whether that's a great strategy for someone like the Range Rover dealership that does such low volumes, because they might leave a lot of money on the table that they can't earn back from someone else.
And that's the way to get the internet job done. Pity that's not more widely understood.
jmurman is a very good guy and if you are in the market for a car and are out his way I would strongly recommend you contact him.
socala I never thought I would hear you say that a car salesperson could be Trustworthy!!
Yes, there are some buyers who will drive 100 miles to save $100
Yeah they are called "socala"!! We discussed earlier that even if I offered you a upfront number a couple hundred over invoice in a NO hassle way you would still shop!
Actually, I made the opposite point, so I'm not sure why you've said this. I specifically told you that my goal is to pay at the bottom end of the price range, and that if you meet that price, I will close the deal because I don't believe that further investment of my time elsewhere would improve my payoff or return.
But here's the caveat -- the ways of negotiation tell you that the first offer is not usually going to be the best available deal. It is very rare for parties to make take-it-or-leave-it offers that are truly firm, very few people leave all their money on the table during the first round.
However, if they go against the grain and actually do make the best-and-final during Round 1 and if I recognize this offer as being a true best-and-final, then I will move forward with the close. That being said, if you offer me a $200 over invoice deal, chances are very high that it is possible to pay less without much effort.
If you are going to haggle with me, do not ask for my best deal up front because it will be take it or leave it.
I'm not sure what you mean, so I hope this answers your question:
I personally would tend to avoid language such as "no games" because it would make me sound as if I am intimidated by the natural negotiation process. A person who firmly proclaims "Don't play games with me!" is obviously nervous and highly uncomfortable with the negotiation process, and is highly unlikely to get the "best and final" price that he is demanding. (After all, why would you give your best deal to someone who is obviously afraid of you? Fear is a total turn-off to most everyone.)
As I said earlier, if you give me a deal that is a best-and-final that is truly at the lowest end of the market price range, then I will take it. Obviously, that means that I would have to recognize this price as being the best that I can get (within the entire marketplace, not just from you), which means the burden is on me to do my homework before I turn up at the dealership.
But really, how often do you give your best price during Round 1 just because somebody asks for it? That pretty much goes against the grain of how negotiation usually works (not just for cars, but for everything in life.)
During part of the meeting all the managers were asked to describe how they offered a quote to a customer looking for one on a new car. Basicly they wanted a run down about how quotes were given and if there were any basic rules they followed.
They went around the room and various stores said such and such over invoice minus rebates or a certin precent over invoice minus rebate. A few said that for certain vehicles they would quote a little more since that car was in particular demand. Nobody is quoting 500 bucks over invoice for an SRT-8 anything or an STI for example.
Then on particular franchise got up and said they are quoting all internet deals at invoice minus all rebates.
OUCH
I never want to be in that situation.
Anyway then our managers got up.
Well we usually start at MSRP for everything except V6 LR3s. Maybe we will give 500-1000 off other vehicles except for the Range Rover Sport those are all sold at MSRP so no way we are going to discount them on the internet or off.
Socal, I think you may be exactly right. If an internet sales person gives a pretty decent price with no hassle, there may a good chance of making the sale.
Just make sure you're comparing apples with apples. Ask for both offers to include ALL fees, so that you don't end up "saving" on the price of the car only to be hit with a $300 "doc fee" or some such thing when time comes to sign the purchase order.
The thing is, I'll bet that it wasn't even a rock-bottom price. I'd bet for many customers, the appearance of fairness and a forthcoming approach will yield a higher closing rate than would a different approach."
Yes and no with this statement. Obviously we have to be competitive. I have to be within the range of everyone else, or it doesn't matter what I send to the customer I wont get the sale.
Yes you are right about fairness and forthcoming...you can't imagine the struggles we had about this. "After all if you give everything up, then all they wil do is shop you." I heard this alot, and having the responsibility for a Dept that spends and receives HUGE amounts of money, it wasn't an easy decision. However, the full results won't be seen until this Spring when business really starts picking up.
They went around the room and various stores said such and such over invoice minus rebates or a certin precent over invoice minus rebate. A few said that for certain vehicles they would quote a little more since that car was in particular demand. Nobody is quoting 500 bucks over invoice for an SRT-8 anything or an STI for example.
Then on particular franchise got up and said they are quoting all internet deals at invoice minus all rebates.
OUCH
I never want to be in that situation.
Anyway then our managers got up.
Well we usually start at MSRP for everything except V6 LR3s. Maybe we will give 500-1000 off other vehicles except for the Range Rover Sport those are all sold at MSRP so no way we are going to discount them on the internet or off. "
I guess that you have to do what you have to do.
Me personally and my Dept...we look at a car purchase as nothing more than a large metal loaf of bread. I give you my best deal up front and do it in such a way that you have NO questions regarding price.
So, if you come back with "X dealer says they'll do $X...will you match it." The difference shouldn't be much, and to be honest with you, we don't want to use our Dept to negotiate.
Negotiations take time and when you are set up to do volume...time is your biggest commidity. We also don't want to take our time to help a customer decide between Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Ford etc. I figure that being a "reasonably intelligent Internet customer", you should have already finished your research and are now in one of the purchasing phases.
Thats just me.
Why look at Mercedes if your budget is Honda?
Now as far as multiple quotes to the same person...I see this with some people too. We have a system at work which lets you know if a person has received a past quote. This is pretty helpful if you now get a rash of requests for every model in a particular vehicle.
After you've done your part and have sent out a couple of quotes then it wouldn't be out of line (in my opinion) to ask for a phone conversation. If they call, then you probably have an interested customer, if they don't then all you're out is some time. Keep in mind that a lot of customers are not in the 72 hr mold as the floor guys are geared for...Internet customers will start shopping about 90 days before their purchase...so expect multiple requests for quotes and for test drives.
Here is where you need to relax and offer service...it's all you've got.
So how does one get to the point of deciding what car they want. Do you expect them to contact regular sales staff for a test drive and then contact you for the price? Or should they contact you, not asking about price but just say they want to test drive model X?
Good question and a valid one. We have no problem in setting up a test drive for a customer, none what so ever...however, these should be done during the week and not on the weekend. When you do test drives during the week, you will usually have the time to spend checking everything out and the Salesman/Internet Rep can take the time to answer any questions you might have.
What is irritating is when customers just show up during the busiest time of the week and say they want to drive a few cars, and that their buying schedule is a couple of months down the road. They will also want to go over interest rates and trade in figures.
I tell my guys that Saturdays (we are closed on Sundays as are all dealerships here) are days for deliveries. Set up your deals during the week and deliveries for Saturday.
Most customes when they come into our dealership on a Saturday are blown away at how busy we are, and appreciate the allocation of time to take care of them. Our delievries last from 1hr to 1/2 hrs from start to finish.
In the past month I had test driven about 10 vehicles before we purchased one. I used the internet guy on all occasions. sometimes the internet guy brought the car around and gave me the keys, sometimes I was handed over to a floor salesman who either took my license and gave me the keys or actually went on the test drive with me.
We ended up buying through the internet guy. This particular dealership was one of the stores that had the floor guy spend time test driving with me and showing the features.
My question is: Did this floor salesperson get paid for his time?
Yes, they split the deal. Probably he guy who wrote it up got credit for the unit and the other guys just got some money...but that usually how it works.
We have customers who ask this all the time, they like th guy who answers their questions via email promptly and themn the person who helps them if the original guy is busy or off.
Unit credits are applied towards monthly bonuses and overall pay.
:mad:
Mackabee
And that's why I wouldn't tell the second guy exactly what the first offer is. Second guy can make his own offer; if it doesn't beat the first one then you know where to buy.
(Mack, did you ever find out about long-ish term Solara rentals at your shop? Say a month or two?)
Actually Bob, I kind of admire your strength of conviction even if I don't agree with that conviction.
In fairness to Bob, I have gone through some of the salesman silliness years ago when I was in my twenties (1980's)trying to buy my first few new cars. I think the industry has come a long,long way from those days. today, I never see the fake argument between the salesman and the manager about "giving these cars away". I actually had a salesman "inadvertently" pushed the intercom button on his phone before he left his office in order to listen to my wife and I talk privately.
But, in my experiences over the last 12 years of buying cars, that stuff is ancient history! internet buying further removed us from that crap. today's salesmen have been nothing but straight forward and forth coming with me. my perception of the industry may have to do with the fact that I am now 45 years old, drive on the lot in an upscale vehicle and I am ready to buy after I narrow down the field to one or two cars.
Bobst, have you tried buying from the internet guy?
Before we bought our last car, I sent around Emails to the local dealers to see of they had the car we wanted in stock, but I didn't mention a price. That was done in person.
Maybe the sales people treat you differently because you are older and look like you know what you are doing.
It has really streamlined the whole process for me. I was looking for an upscale wagon for my wife, but couldn't find a wagon I liked at a price I liked. bought an Acura TL with no negotiation for a price well below edmunds TMV. The price paid was actually below what a co worker paid at the same dealership a couple of months ago. There are no options to speak of on a TL (non-navi)so this was an apples to apples comparison. He spent a couple of evenings and I spent a couple of hours tops.
The internet guy gave me a price after two emails (and I called him once). He didn't know if I was 25 or 65 years old, so I assume you could do the same even if you are still a young guy.
I Agree that not being 25 helps when you go to the floor guy, but what does a person who "knows what he is doing" look like?
I went to the dealer that was most convenient, offered a price, and they accepted.
"what does a person who 'knows what he is doing' look like?"
What does an absolutely captivating woman look like? You just know her when you see her.
We all have our circumstances and cards that we have been dealth, and on the whole, I see no distinction between the results that can be obtained by anyone, whether male or female, young or old, black, white or purple, or whatever.
If you are a good negotiator, you will determine what your apparent, obvious "disadvantages" are, and turn them to your advantage. For example, when buying my first new car as a long-haired, obviously young 20-year old, I had the F&I guy do the usual "salesman made a mistake/ we're off by $500/ let's split the baby in half, OK?" gimmick on me.
I could have felt bullied because I was a kid, but instead, I leveraged this. My retort -- I'm just a kid in college with a part-time job, and I simply don't have the extra money. No need to tell him to pound sand, I just pled poverty and apologized that I didn't have another dime. How on earth could he possibly pull money out of someone with a pitch like that?
Don't overestimated the value of playing dumb (or at least appearing to be a bit naive) when cutting a deal. The urge to prove that you are intelligent is an urge that you should repress when you are dealing in these situations. Don't go out of your way to actually be stupid, but letting the other guy believe you are will make him vulnerable and be helpful to you in getting better intelligence on your opponent. The best way to get the other guy to mind what he says is to prove to him that you know how to use information against him.
I guess it depends on the person and the dealership. If I "know somebody" ...I let them know I'm probably not going to be the lowest price in a 5000 mile radius..but I can make the process very fair, quick, simple, tansparent and honest and fun...Alot of folks like to feel good when they drive away in their new car, and I make sure that happens....OTOH, the guy who 'knows me' and wants to grind the last dollar out of the deal and be a royal pain isnt going to get much out out of me.
But most people don't, and I believe that this effort to get a short cut around the sales system by hoping that "friendship" will reduce hassle is misguided. If anything, it creates more hassle, as you come away disappointed when you realize that the effort was in vain from the start.
Here's my advice -- aside from avoiding the very worst dealers, don't bother looking for the "best" dealership or the "most honest" salesman, as you need neither in order to get a very good deal. The salesman can be good, bad or indifferent, it really doesn't matter -- at the end of the day, a well-managed negotiation will get you a low price and favorable terms, IF you know what you're doing.
My priority would be to buy from the dealership that (a) has the car on its lot and (b) is convenient to your home or office. If the service department there is good, so much the better.
Remember -- from the dealer's standpoint, the purpose of a "relationship" is to get you to replace your logic with emotion, and to increase his profits in some way, shape or form. Unless you're buying cars in bulk (which you obviously aren't), forget trying to make the salesman your friend, and just buy the car for as little as possible. There is no need to either get into a fistfight or shouting match on the showroom floor, or to become the sales manager's golfing buddy in order to get a good deal.
I guess the real measure was my friends relationship with his inlaw that owned the dealership group.
The salesman can be good, bad or indifferent, it really doesn't matter -- at the end of the day, a well-managed negotiation will get you a low price and favorable terms, IF you know what you're doing.
The problem was I didn't exactly know what i was doing, as this was my first car negotiation on my own. I relied on my friend and his family member who owned the dealership to 'take care of me' so to speak. Anyway it turned out ok at the dealership that I ended up going to. One of the reasons I went to the first dealership was I was worried that someone would pull the old "you are approved at x percent" and then after delivery a week later say "oops, you are not approved" ruse from a dealership I didn't know.
The friends referal to a dealer isn't always what it seems.
I live in a state where hockey is a big deal. Our public relations guy at work is a local hockey legend. Every time the news needs a hockey expert "Billy" is on t.v.. Every time a group needs a dynamic speaker, Billy gets a call. He is a cottage industry unto him self, a great part time job for sure. Everywhere I go with Billy, people come up and talk to him. Going to lunch gets actually bothersome.
Many people he knows, and friends of friends of friends of people he knows are always asking to get set up to buy big ticket items through Billy's connections. Requests to be set up to get a deal on a car are the most common. Billy knows almost all of the car dealers in town personally. You need a cadillac, Billy has "a guy". You want a Honda, Billy has "a Guy". Any car you want..Billy has a guy.
I talked to him about it one day and I said that it was very nice of him to set all those people up with deals...and Billy chuckled..you see the people may be getting a reasonably good price without the any hassles, but more importantly to Billy....he was getting a $100 for each car sold. He told me things have slowed down in last few years because alot of the people that want the no-hassle car purchase were just going through the internet sales guys.
I guess the Moral is... even the good guy, local heros still like to make a buck.
Your concerns are totally fair, and I think your anecdote nicely illustrates how trying to dodge bullets by relying on someone who has been recommended is likely to get you shot.
There is a game to car sales, and I think we all have a few choices:
-Feel resigned to it, and get taken to the cleaners because we feel like victims who are baffled by the whole thing
-Deny it, and try to get around the system by expecting friendship and compassion to intervene, only to no avail
-Fight it, creating unnecessary hostility (and in the process of doing so, alerting the dealer to our tactics and giving him more information about our methods that he will then incorporate into his tactics)
-Embrace it, and play it as well as possible
or
-Walk, take the bus, or otherwise avoid buying a car
If you live in Manhattan, you might get away with the last option, but otherwise, you're stuck with the others. I say have fun with it, get a low price and good terms, and then have some good war stories to share with your friends (whom you can afford to take to dinner because of the money you saved.)
After studying the MSRP and Invoice prices at Edmunds and several other sites (all about the same as far as being close to each other) with all of the same additional options, I then went to the Chysler home page and typed in the zip code for my area and it gave me about five nearby dealerships. Then, after checking these dealerships inventory, I sent Emails to all four of the five that had exactly what I am looking for.
All four responded...one with an offer of $200.00 below invoice....the second with an offer of 1% below invoice ( that's about $200.00 below invoice, also).
The third Emailed me an OTD price ( and even after my computations with tax,plus $40.00 tag xfer fee,doc.fee,Fla. disposal fee, etc. (the offer was too high so I eliminated them.)
The fourth was quickly eliminated due to the fact they wanted to set up an immediate appointment without any figure involved. (I specifically had asked for pricing in the original message)!
I the Emailed the $200.00 below invoice dealer for a breakdown of "any additional costs". They responded with a complete breakdown. The only obstacle at this time is the fact they have a $499.00 "dealer prep" fee! As of this writing I have Emailed them back stating that I will purchase said vehicle "providing that they eliminate the $499.00 "prep" fee.
There is also a $1500.00 rebate at this time on the PT until July 2nd.
Stayed tuned to see what response I receive!!!! I firmly believe that using the internet saves a buyer a lot of time and "hassle" as long as they do their research first
by checking the model desired, prices, specs of vehicle,what options you want and of course the dealership inventory of the model and options that you desire.
I have already taken a "test drive" of exactly whay I am interested in received a PT Cruiser brochure to recheck the model and options that I want...(also the color I want).
Will follow-up this long novel when I receive an answer from the dealership internet salesperson.
That's a standard reply. The fee is simply additional revenue to cover all dealer costs plus profit.