Man the last stats I saw said that anything over a 3% closing ratio on internet customers was outstanding.
We used to do about 3% or maybe a little better for internet customers but now all of our internet traffic goes through an Internet Specialist. We only see the leads that she thinks are the most serious and/or promising.
I have no idea what our closing ratios are now but they sure seem worse then 3% and we aren't even seeing all of the traffic anymore. :confuse: :sick:
How often does your internet salesperson(s) ask customers to come on down instead of giving them a quote? That could be part of the problem. Sure, giving quotes might lead to more people taking those quotes elsewhere, but would you really want to deal with grinders like that anyway? Casting the net wider will catch more boots, true, but you'll also catch more fish.
a person who won't even come to the dealership or provide a phone number or any information probably is not a buyer. our policy is to not give any pricing below invoice to a customer that we dont have a phone # for. why you ask?
well the mentality is if you won't give me your phone # you sure as heck arent giving me $20k of your money
And why not? When we shop for anything else we do price comparisons (TVs, appliances ) Hell, there are web sites dedicated to that: Froogle, Dealtime, etc. What makes you so special, or your product for that matter?
Absolutely nothing. Like I said before I have to sell a car you dont have to buy one and even if you do you dont have to buy it from me. The customer has the power, even if youre a stiff you still dont have to buy from me. If I got you approved chances are someone else who uses the same bank co get you hocked too. What I was saying is that youre (not you personally but a generalization) a [non-permissible content removed] if you make a commitment with a handshake, signature, deposit and your word to buy a car at X price and then you jsut leverage that price against another dealer and back them into a corner to beat the deal.
If you really want to do it honestly just treat it like a sealed bid auction. Contact each dealer tell them they have one chance to give you one price, you will be contacting 4 dealers nearest you and will buy from the lowest price. None of the dealers will know what the other dealers offered you.
"What I was saying is that youre (not you personally but a generalization) a [non-permissible content removed] if you make a commitment with a handshake, signature, deposit and your word to buy a car at X price and then you jsut leverage that price against another dealer"
I had a similar thing happen to me. When we were buying a Honda in 1995, the sales manager and I made a deal and shook hands. The next day, when they had the car delivered to the dealer, I went in to buy the car but they would not honor the deal we had made. Of course, I walked out.
However, I would not call the guy a [non-permissible content removed]. I just accepted their behavior as normal and learned to deal with it.
After I learned how to buy a car the proper way, all of our car buying experiences have been very enjoyable.
If you really want to do it honestly just treat it like a sealed bid auction. Contact each dealer tell them they have one chance to give you one price, you will be contacting 4 dealers nearest you and will buy from the lowest price. None of the dealers will know what the other dealers offered you.
What's wrong with that?
Probably none of the dealers will believe you. Why don't the dealers treat it this way? If I ask "what is the price?" give me one final price and stick with it.
the way I lay it out goes like this "OK If we can agree on price are you prepared to buy the car today?" If no then who cares what I give you for a price if youre not buying it today. It could be $5 but if youre not buying it who cares. If it's a yes I say "Great so the car is the right car and right color so where do we need to be to do business?" What's wrong with that?
I've actually had several customer buy from me this way.
What I love is if you get a guy that's really being a jerk and I know he isn't buying today I'll give him a price thats $2k below net with the stip of if you buy the car right now the price is $X so when he goes and shops noone will even be close.
And why do customers always get pissed off when you say "If you buy the car right now I will do the deal for X?"
"OK If we can agree on price are you prepared to buy the car today?"
The easy answer to that is "yes". Now, it may be that in order for me to buy today, the price will have to be $5...or maybe the $2K below net that you mention.
While I understand your stance here the problem is that a customer may regard that line as having the same value as a dealer's claim that "if we make a deal, we'll pay off your trade no matter how much you owe" - just meaningless hype.
Now, in fact, when that line's been used on me I simply regard it apparently as you do - as a gauge to determine if I'm a serious buyer.
I had the same thing happen to me when the Oddysey first came out. I had an email OTD quote from a dealer that I called and agreed to it. We agreed on delivery for the next day at about 9 AM. He called about 8 saying he couldn't let it go for that price and it would be an extra $800....:mad:.
I complained to the internet site I requested the quote from, don't recall if it was Edmunds or Autobytel, and their response was that they couldn't force the dealer to honor the price.
Unfortunately, the customer usually demands meaningless hype. If you're all fired up about figuring out what something will cost you, just look up the cost information on this website. Why kill yourself trying to get a Hyundai Elantra for $50 less than your neighbor paid for his, when neither one is going to be worth $5 a couple years from now. The vast majority of internet leads are crap, and it is very easy to tell the crap ones from the legit ones. I'll spend my time and effort on the legit ones. It is, however pretty fun to misleed the crap leads though. After all, the public is there for my personnal amusement.
Having bought most of my cars over the internet since 2000, I figured to do the same this summer when shopping for a new Mustang GT. There are six Ford stores here in Columbus. I sought internet quotes from 4 of them (and used Ford's site to do so). Two eventually provided quotes after much going back and forth. The third gave a quote in the second go-round of emails. The fourth flatly refused to name a price (and still has the car in question 5 months later). I grew so sick of their games that I eventually bought one the old fashioned way via shoe leather.
My view is that the only "crap" involved with internet sales is that created by dealers who have warped a promising concept.
And if it's only a lousy $50, why is it that dealers are so anxious to pry it from their customers' wallets?
In my case, the difference between the price at the selling dealer and the next closest was about $800, an amount well worth my time.
You might sell cars everyday but most buyers only do it once every few years. If you think they will separate with $20-30k of their hard earned money in 3 seconds, you must be pretty naive!
a dealer has of making money is off the car you are buying. no they wont gripe all day over $50 but they will over $300, $500 or $1000 the same way people gripe over $5/mo in payments.
Unfortunately, the customer usually demands meaningless hype.
This is unfortunately all too true. This is why screamer ads work, this is why "all offers end Oct 30th" work when we we all know that there will be better offers Nov 1. And a deal can almost never be closed until I say "If I do X you are an owner?" A customer will never ever and I mean never lay all their cards out on the table. "I will pay X for your car, I will accept X for my trade, I will accept X for a rate and X for a payment...tell me how much to write the check for to get there" In over 4 years and probably close to 800 car deals I have never had a cutomer lay out the cards like that. We have to pry, we have to dig, we hae to come up with clever ways of getting you to give us info without you even knowing it. Because you wont tell us how to sel you a damn car.
And yes buying a car is a huge investment so wouldnt you want to develop some level of connection with the person you are going to have over this commitment of money to?
From the followers of the infamous Bobst method, it goes like this: I'll give you X for the car including fees plus TTL and according to my calculations, that should be Y. I've been pre-approved at my local credit union for 1.5% for a 48 mo. loan, I have no trade in, and I'm putting $2K down. I'm ready to buy that car right now and take it home. Do we have a deal?
wouldnt you want to develop some level of connection with the person you are going to have over this commitment of money to?
You must be dealing with mostly uninformed buyers!
I would typically ask for a quote. Then once I get it, I compare them to others and say my best quote is better, it is: "$X.xk off MSRP + TTL. Can you beat that?"
Typical answers: (1) roughly 60-70% say "the OTHER deal will change once you get there, I will still have this deal waiting for you" or (2) about 20% say "sorry, I cannot get that far", (3) very very few say ok, I can play at that level, (4) bring me a purchase order, and I will match it but I suspect they will not or none have done it for me to this point...
I NEVER make up the numbers but I do search beyond my own state. The point here is majority of the sales folks make stuff up about their own peers lying... they are lying about lying? The honorable thing would be to say (2) but not enough folks see it that way. What is wrong with saying: "I can get this much from another buyer and I do not have to go any lower"?
You are an attorney and you did not know "that buyers remorse" or "cooling off period" does not apply to cars? There is no state that this applies to. You are an attorney and you did not research before you purchased? Do your research next time.
Lay all your cards on the table for a salesperson, chances are the practices most of them have been taught or forced into would make them try to get you into a less expensive car for the amount you gave them. At the very least, they wold try to sell you the car you want for about a grand over the price you give them. In my honest opinion, there is no straight way to make a one-lined deal with a lower level salesperson. Of course, if you can make it/go to higher levels . . .
And I think I like it. I didn't make offers in my e-mails, but I specified model, options, colors, subject to wife's test drive of the car and that I am buying the car by Saturday (I sent it on Monday). By 4PM Monday, I had 2 offers ($2K difference between them), and I bought Mazda 6 on Tuesday from dealer that had the lowest offer. No changes in the offer, although once we sat down and the sales guy went back to the fish tank they came back with $399 payment, when it should be $386 (the price was still the same) and that was before running the credit report. The 2nd time they came back with lower monthly payment and when I got all the numbers the rate was about .75% lower then I though it was going to be. Again, not a bad experience, but it made it easier since I didn't have a trade in to worry about. I do see what some people here are talking about. Couple years back I was shopping for Focus, got bunch of quotes, but ended up with a used Explorer. Same thing with buying the Mazda, the dealer carried Subaru's, and my wife drove the Legacy, and then had hard time selecting one over the other. All I was thinking is - can you still zoom with AWD?
Zackcam: I am not just "showing my cards", if I am trully "informed" I already have pretty good idea what the other party is holding. If I'm comfortable with my cards, it does not matter if the other player is bluffing. Plus, there is no down side, I can always walk out and lose only my time.
Bobst, enjoyable is a stretch for some. If you approach it as a game, it is so. :P However, for many it is a difficult process because they are not price informed. :confuse: It really comes down to being able to determine a reasonable number and sticking to your guns. However, figuring out what is "reasonable" can be pretty difficult because there is so much noise trying to prevent one from hearing "good" information.
Most of us do not buy cars everyday and we have no idea what is a range of selling (not asking) prices. We can collect a slew of asking prices but they are not always a good proxy for the actual market price. Bobst famous method assumes you know that price level but figuring that out may be the hardest part.
I still insist that going to the dealer may not be that much fun because the second you walk in, the dealerships assume you are a clueless walkup. :mad: And the games begin! :sick: If the Internet department is properly set up (I know, it is NOT in many places) and treated as a separate channel/process than walkups, you are much better off to only go in to sign and drive...
would typically ask for a quote. Then once I get it, I compare them to others and say my best quote is better, it is: "$X.xk off MSRP + TTL. Can you beat that?"
"figuring out what is "reasonable" can be pretty difficult"
You are absolutely right.
We bought a few Hondas in the 90's and we always had to pay $150 - $250 over invoice. If we offered less, our offers were refused.
When we were looking for an Accord in 2005, I figured we would have to pay the same thing. However, I looked in the Prices Paid forum and one guy in our area claimed he got an Accord for $500 under invoice.
I found that price very hard to believe, but we went to Fairfax Honda, offered that price, and they accepted. We were amazed!
Yeah, it can be hard to guess what price the dealer will accept. That's why car buying is such an interesting experience.
Our ancestors had it much tougher when they had to buy a horse.
Bobst: I am also in Fairfax but the bastards at Fairfax Honda will never again touch my '03 Pilot! They put 20 miles on it when I brought it in for an oil change and they SMOKED something nasty in it! Their answer was: we do not know what happend to your vehicle.
I also helped a friend buy an '05 accord and we found that Fairfax was not that competitive. MD had much better prices.
In order to better define the "number": I start by reading "prices paid" then visit a few other forums and places like fitzmall, carmax, carsdirect and http://www.autosbargain.com (their current claim is that '06 accords can be had $2k under invoice). Then I email a few dealers (some in a few states over) to discover the best price: that is the easiest way to define the left tail of the price dispersion. I have sometimes tried to "leverage" that number by trying the "bobst method" at my closest dealership but I have never been able to get them to take me seriously.
Example: When I bought my '03 Pilot, Fairfax Honda was charging full MSRP with $300 in junk fees. They laughed at me when I truthfully mentioned the deal I was getting by shipping the Pilot from OH and delivering it to my door with about $2k still left in my pocket! I never had to appear at a dealership which was a huge bonus... In addition, I had to wait for only 6 weeks whereas the wait was 3-4 months in VA.
you mentioned autosbargain .com, is that another invoicedealers .com spam web site? the huge affiliate spam network that is created to redirect visitors to the main site is a shame. the best thing to do is shop around and try to buy local... try.
You are missing my point: I did not say ask for a quote, I said look at the pricing information they offer.
Shopping around can be more effort because many dealers to do not respond, not aswer important questions (like miles on their stock), etc. Knowing what others recently paid, defines the ball park so that you can dump the jockers that keep trying talk MSRP when their vehicles sell for over $5k below that. Price information there and similar sites are other bits of information that is highly useful and can be aquired in seconds...
I agree that NOTHING is a substitute for being informed However, being informed can be too much effort because if it takes 100 hours to figure out the best price it might be better to buy from your own uncle for a few hundred more... Creating a "relationship" can only "work" if it is sybiotic but my personal experience is that most dealerships focus on bundling and captive marketing but call it a "relationship".
Shopping local is not so great because not all markets were created equal, but some markets are more equal than others... For example, my market is often overpriced and sometimes $2-3k. For example, prices often vary greatly up and down 95. A buyer can also game regional incentives! Other markets such as Seattle/Portland are typically overpriced because it is so far away from any other major centers. Given the deals that are 3-4 train hours away or $500 in shipping, it SOMETIMES pays to look beyond your back yard.
For example, my market is often overpriced and sometimes $2-3k.
abraindrainer, from your previous posts I understand that you live in or around Fairfax VA, and that you recently purchased a Honda. I also live in Fairfax and I am beginning to shop for an Odyssey. Please share your recent shopping experience and why you came to that conclusion. Feel free to mention dealership names that you had experience with and how you were treated by them.
Exbo, we have bought a Honda at Fairfax, two at Tysons, one at Landmark, and one at Hendrick. We were treated about the same at all of them, but I guess Tysons was a little better.
The worst was Landmark where they tried to cheat us out of an option they had agreed to give us, but that problem was resolved when we got up to leave and they changed their mind very quickly.
If you know exactly what you want and exactly how much you are willing to pay, any dealer should be OK.
Caveat: My Honda experience is not that recent. However, I have found that prices in MD are almost always lower and the dreaded fee is legally capped at $100. You may notice that even sales tax can differ between VA dealerships: 0.17% tax in Arlington is going to cost you a nice lunch! Having said that, I liked the folks at Sport but I ended up buying from an OH dealership (Waikem) and shipping to my door (charged $350 to ship at the time) because it was much cheaper. I highly recommend that experience!
Right now may not be the the best time to buy popular vehicles like Ody: '06 models are basically gone and the '07 discounting is NOT in full swing. For recent prices, I would start with reading the last few pages of this thread: Ody prices paid discussion. It seems from the details there that you can currently get an Ody for a few hundred under invoice.
Here is what I recommend: E-mail as many dealership as you can, even the ones outside of your desired driving range in order to establish the best price. Go a few rounds of emails by emailing your best price to all the contenders. Plan on giving yourself a few days because you may "have a life" and some dealerships take over 24 hours to respond. Once you reach a workable price/distance mix (after "fees" and before TTL) get purchase order in writing/fax so that you do not have renegotiate once you get there to pick it up. Better yet, have them mail you the contract to sign before you depart. It is amazing how many "mistakes" some of these sales people make...
Bobst, you sure like those Rosenthal stores. You have to be careful with them, they like to play games. Unfortunately for me the Fairfax store is the closest one to my house, and Tysons is second closest. I bought an Accord from Fairfax in 1999. I got it for $400 over the “published” invoice including the junk fees, but they paid me $500 over the black book for my trade-in. In 2004 they refused to match written lease quote from Ourisman. Both times they asked me if I am willing pay their mortgage, whatever. I still service at the Fairfax store, but so far I had only maintenance to deal with. I usually go there on Saturday mornings and wait. Haven’t had any issues yet.
abraindrainer, why do you think that our market is overpriced. With over 20 Honda stores in 40 mi radius, one would think it is very competitive.
The Rosenthal stores may have tricky sales managers but their F&I people have always been very efficient and professional. They even give us real license tags instead of the temporary cardboard ones.
I would follow Brain's advice and look at he Ody prices paid DG. However, instead of sending out a bunch of emails, you could do what we did - just walk into the dealer and offer a fixed OTD price and see if they accept.
If they refuse, then at least you have absolute proof that your offer is too low. You can come back later and offer a higher price or try somewhere else.
If they accept, you got a new car that you can take for a spin over to Harper's Ferry and Antietam Bettlefield. We live in a great area, don't we?
By the way, if you go to Harpers Ferry, be sure to stop for breakfast at the Cindy Dee Diner on the Maryland side of the Potomac. What a nice place!
EXB0: I think that unless you can find a smoking deal on '06 unit, the current prices '07 are only so-so because of the seasonality of automobile pricing from the manufacturer (as opposed to dealer). I believe that Honda intiated incentives on Ody are more likely to increase in the upcoming weeks/months. That is only my opinion... but it seems that discounts were better on '06s, a few months ago. Again, spend some time at the Ody pricing page .
I have absolutely no respect for Fairfax Honda :mad: , they are also my closest dealer but they have proven to be unprofessional in buying and service. Beware, that place is a real :lemon: !
Bobst, I think your advice is generally good. However, the cost of driving around can be hefty (compared to an email) and I also believe that there exist pricing difference between Internet and walkup channels. I have also found significant differences between dealerships. This claim is actually confirmed by EXB0: they "could" not match another offer? How is that possible? I have also recently noticed that one dealership would not give me X off whereas another one a couple hundred miles away offered [$X+2,000] OFF! Differences in dealer "volume" discount are important!
a person who won't even come to the dealership or provide a phone number or any information probably is not a buyer. our policy is to not give any pricing below invoice to a customer that we dont have a phone # for. why you ask?
well the mentality is if you won't give me your phone # you sure as heck arent giving me $20k of your money
I agree with this, as I posted on another thread. When I did my recent internet purchase, I included my phone number as well as an "opening bid," and I explained how I arrived at that price using invoice etc. The dealers I emailed were asked to make their offer at or below that price. Every one of them responded, and none of them abused my phone number. Three or four of them called with their offer, and we purchased from one of those callers (who followed it up in writing, of course). The others all called me back to see if we were still in the market, and when I explained we had made the purchase elsewhere, that was it...no bugging me with any more calls.
Initially, I would have agreed that internet dealers usually get hosed because a buyer will trot their offer into the closest dealer and but the car there. But our local dealer said they would match, then backed down when we got there, which taught me an important lesson: From now on, I will just buy from the internet dealer without giving the local place a shot anymore. The internet dealer was great to deal with...it would have removed 99 percent of the overall hassle if we had just dealt with them and removed the local dealer from the equation.
Of course, I am very, very specific in my request for an internet quote, i.e. I explain that I will not pay doc fees, extras, etc. and that I want an out the door price. That eliminates most of the things that could typically sour it in person.
Bobst, you sure like those Rosenthal stores. You have to be careful with them, they like to play games
With the bobst buying method it doesnt matter what games they try to play, they don't work...his buying process doesnt allow anything to happen other than "yes" or "no" to the offer...
I recently put a down-payment on a Fit from a dealer negotiating via the internet. I have read about getting a "Buy Order" on these forums, but the dealer emailed me a "Disclosure of Numbers". This has the vehicle name, model, color, VIN#, and a detailed list of sales price, doc fees, tax, title, total price delivered. The form has a line for my signature and the sales manager, but since it was sent as an excel document on the internet it was not signed.
How are deals normally confirmed in internet? Is my Disclosure of Numbers the same as a Buy Order? I have a previous email from the salesmen saying the deposit is "fully refundable and just gives you the right of first refusal." Is all this sufficient?
With the bobst buying method it doesnt matter what games they try to play, they don't work...his buying process doesnt allow anything to happen other than "yes" or "no" to the offer...
Yup that is really the beauty in his system. You can't get played if you don't play the game.
How are deals normally confirmed in internet? Is my Disclosure of Numbers the same as a Buy Order? I have a previous email from the salesmen saying the deposit is "fully refundable and just gives you the right of first refusal." Is all this sufficient?
I can only speak from my own experience, but I didn't have an official Disclosure of Numbers or a Buy Order. The internet manager simply sent me an email detailing everything about the transction (i.e. car price, tax, title, and out the door price...sort of like an unofficial disclosure of numbers, I suppose), plus the VIN number of the vehicle that I was purchasing and a description (mainly color and LX, since it didn't have any options). In the email, he stated that he would sell me that specific vehicle at that specific price. I don't know if it would hold up in court, but he kept his end of the bargain and I kept mine : ) I would think that as long as you have something very specific in writing that leaves no margin for error (i.e. room for them to slip in junk fees etc.), you would be fine.
So.... I sent out four e-mails today, each of which was personally adressed to the Internet Managers of the respective dealers, requesting their lowest OTD quote.
I was friendly; I included my full name and phone numbers; I provided the date I'll be ready to buy (Dec. 29th); I provided a clear, detailed list of the car/options I'm looking for (HD; SK; NV; P2; VS; FE; WL; CF; and MG); I let them know that I'm willing to wait if it needs to be preferenced or ordered; I informed them that I wouldn't be trading in anything; and I asked that they contact me via e-mail at this point, even though I provided them with my phone numbers.
I concluded with a request for their lowest OTD quote, and let them know I looked forward to hearing from them.
I'd like to be able to say that I've heard back from each of them, but ....
.... that's not the case.
I recieved one e-mail back informing me that he wouldn't have the car until late January, and to contact him for an appointment (translation: Come in to the dealership). Uh, no. Sorry. That defeats the entire point of the Internet Department!
I wrote back thanking him for his rapid response, and reiterated that I'm willing to wait for the car to be ordered; I realized going into this that he may not have the car on the lot. I said that though I may not DRIVE the car off the lot on Dec. 29th, I can make an AGREEMENT by the 29th, and since he's the Internet Manager I'd prefer to make my "appointment" right here, via our respective computers.
This is what just arrived (his CAPS, not mine):
WOULD NEED TO ADD THE ITEMS YOU ARE REQUESTING,IN THE HOPES THE FACTORY WILL ACCEPT THEM.iT MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT TO GIVE YOU A PRICE ,SINCE I WOULD NOT HAVE MY COST AVAILABLE TO ME UNTIL THE CAR SHIPS IN LATE JANUARY.BASE PRICE WITHOUT VS,WL, MG AND P2 WOULD BE IN THE $30,000.00 RANGE BEFORE FEES.i CANT ADD ITEMS TO CARS UNTIL I HAVE A FIRM COMMITMENT TO BUY THE CAR.HOPE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THEE PREDICIMENT I AM PUT IN.
It seems like a Catch 22 to me, but I'm not familiar enough with the logistics of the business to know if it's accurate or not. AND ... his "base" price is a lot less base than mine! According to my research the invoice price, with options (not including TTL) is under $28,500. Am I that far off in my calculations??? What's the next step with an e-mail like this? Is this where the "back and forth" part I've heard so much about begins - and if so, what do I say - or is it the end of the discussion?
I've not heard from any of the other three dealers I e-mailed.
Perhaps my expectations were/are unrealistic; maybe it takes DAYS, not hours, to hear back from these guys (or gals).
What if NONE of the other dealers respond!?!? Truthfully, I'd not even considered that possibility. Ugh.
The only vehicular card I've left in my pocket is with my local AAA and their Car Purchasing Program. I spoke with the gentleman several weeks ago (he's the fleet manager with a local Toyota Dealership). I was hoping to at least have an idea of what other dealers are offering if/when I spoke with him next.
This is my only day off until Friday, and I was hoping to get at least a good start on my diologues - heck, I was even thinking I may have made a concrete deal today! - but at this rate ... not much is happening. At all. Bleh.
Anyways ... I was just checking in with those of you who have experience in matters such as this. Feel free to let me know if my exectations are a bit out of allignment (bad pun, I know) and I'll adjust accordingly. Or if there are options I have of which I am unaware.
My experience is that your experience seems fairly typical. Many ask... few get. That a dealership would have to special order your vehicle only makes them less inclined to give you a quote via internet. That's a lot of their time to find your car, get logistics worked out for trade or buy, have a price worked out... then they never hear from you again.
I would suggest the "Jipst" method of getting a internet price quote. Go to the 4 dealerships, pick out one vehicle that you like from each lot. Write all available information including the vin#, options, color etc. Then contact the internet managers and negotiate a price.
Most dealers have inventory available on-line, why not check and see if one of them has what you want in stock? If they do, then send an email asking what they will sell that particular car for.
I would guess that Toyota dealers will be less responsive than most others. They have growing sales and are not likely having to work too hard to find buyers.
Comments
We used to do about 3% or maybe a little better for internet customers but now all of our internet traffic goes through an Internet Specialist. We only see the leads that she thinks are the most serious and/or promising.
I have no idea what our closing ratios are now but they sure seem worse then 3% and we aren't even seeing all of the traffic anymore. :confuse: :sick:
well the mentality is if you won't give me your phone # you sure as heck arent giving me $20k of your money
And why not? When we shop for anything else we do price comparisons (TVs, appliances ) Hell, there are web sites dedicated to that: Froogle, Dealtime, etc. What makes you so special, or your product for that matter?
Absolutely nothing. Like I said before I have to sell a car you dont have to buy one and even if you do you dont have to buy it from me. The customer has the power, even if youre a stiff you still dont have to buy from me. If I got you approved chances are someone else who uses the same bank co get you hocked too. What I was saying is that youre (not you personally but a generalization) a [non-permissible content removed] if you make a commitment with a handshake, signature, deposit and your word to buy a car at X price and then you jsut leverage that price against another dealer and back them into a corner to beat the deal.
If you really want to do it honestly just treat it like a sealed bid auction. Contact each dealer tell them they have one chance to give you one price, you will be contacting 4 dealers nearest you and will buy from the lowest price. None of the dealers will know what the other dealers offered you.
What's wrong with that?
I had a similar thing happen to me. When we were buying a Honda in 1995, the sales manager and I made a deal and shook hands. The next day, when they had the car delivered to the dealer, I went in to buy the car but they would not honor the deal we had made. Of course, I walked out.
However, I would not call the guy a [non-permissible content removed]. I just accepted their behavior as normal and learned to deal with it.
After I learned how to buy a car the proper way, all of our car buying experiences have been very enjoyable.
In my opinion, it wouldn't be any fun and it probably wouldn't get you the best price.
What's wrong with that?
Probably none of the dealers will believe you. Why don't the dealers treat it this way? If I ask "what is the price?" give me one final price and stick with it.
I've actually had several customer buy from me this way.
What I love is if you get a guy that's really being a jerk and I know he isn't buying today I'll give him a price thats $2k below net with the stip of if you buy the car right now the price is $X so when he goes and shops noone will even be close.
And why do customers always get pissed off when you say "If you buy the car right now I will do the deal for X?"
The easy answer to that is "yes". Now, it may be that in order for me to buy today, the price will have to be $5...or maybe the $2K below net that you mention.
Now, in fact, when that line's been used on me I simply regard it apparently as you do - as a gauge to determine if I'm a serious buyer.
I complained to the internet site I requested the quote from, don't recall if it was Edmunds or Autobytel, and their response was that they couldn't force the dealer to honor the price.
My view is that the only "crap" involved with internet sales is that created by dealers who have warped a promising concept.
And if it's only a lousy $50, why is it that dealers are so anxious to pry it from their customers' wallets?
In my case, the difference between the price at the selling dealer and the next closest was about $800, an amount well worth my time.
Very nice.....
Unfortunately, the customer usually demands meaningless hype.
This is unfortunately all too true. This is why screamer ads work, this is why "all offers end Oct 30th" work when we we all know that there will be better offers Nov 1. And a deal can almost never be closed until I say "If I do X you are an owner?" A customer will never ever and I mean never lay all their cards out on the table. "I will pay X for your car, I will accept X for my trade, I will accept X for a rate and X for a payment...tell me how much to write the check for to get there" In over 4 years and probably close to 800 car deals I have never had a cutomer lay out the cards like that. We have to pry, we have to dig, we hae to come up with clever ways of getting you to give us info without you even knowing it. Because you wont tell us how to sel you a damn car.
And yes buying a car is a huge investment so wouldnt you want to develop some level of connection with the person you are going to have over this commitment of money to?
From the followers of the infamous Bobst method, it goes like this: I'll give you X for the car including fees plus TTL and according to my calculations, that should be Y. I've been pre-approved at my local credit union for 1.5% for a 48 mo. loan, I have no trade in, and I'm putting $2K down. I'm ready to buy that car right now and take it home. Do we have a deal?
wouldnt you want to develop some level of connection with the person you are going to have over this commitment of money to?
Well, no, not really.
I would typically ask for a quote. Then once I get it, I compare them to others and say my best quote is better, it is: "$X.xk off MSRP + TTL. Can you beat that?"
Typical answers: (1) roughly 60-70% say "the OTHER deal will change once you get there, I will still have this deal waiting for you" or (2) about 20% say "sorry, I cannot get that far", (3) very very few say ok, I can play at that level, (4) bring me a purchase order, and I will match it but I suspect they will not or none have done it for me to this point...
I NEVER make up the numbers but I do search beyond my own state. The point here is majority of the sales folks make stuff up about their own peers lying... they are lying about lying? The honorable thing would be to say (2) but not enough folks see it that way. What is wrong with saying: "I can get this much from another buyer and I do not have to go any lower"?
Last time I did "what price will you sell car X for?".
You are an attorney and you did not research before you purchased?
Do your research next time.
Zachary Cam
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated, sayeth the Borg.
I do see what some people here are talking about. Couple years back I was shopping for Focus, got bunch of quotes, but ended up with a used Explorer. Same thing with buying the Mazda, the dealer carried Subaru's, and my wife drove the Legacy, and then had hard time selecting one over the other. All I was thinking is - can you still zoom with AWD?
Yes you can: it is called Mazdaspeed6! However, you have to know how to change gears....
That's very true. It only takes a few minutes to go into the dealer, make an offer, and leave if it is declined.
Car buying is very enjoyable if you have a specific plan and stick to it.
Most of us do not buy cars everyday and we have no idea what is a range of selling (not asking) prices. We can collect a slew of asking prices but they are not always a good proxy for the actual market price. Bobst famous method assumes you know that price level but figuring that out may be the hardest part.
I still insist that going to the dealer may not be that much fun because the second you walk in, the dealerships assume you are a clueless walkup. :mad: And the games begin! :sick: If the Internet department is properly set up (I know, it is NOT in many places) and treated as a separate channel/process than walkups, you are much better off to only go in to sign and drive...
that's called leveraging not laying the cards out
You are absolutely right.
We bought a few Hondas in the 90's and we always had to pay $150 - $250 over invoice. If we offered less, our offers were refused.
When we were looking for an Accord in 2005, I figured we would have to pay the same thing. However, I looked in the Prices Paid forum and one guy in our area claimed he got an Accord for $500 under invoice.
I found that price very hard to believe, but we went to Fairfax Honda, offered that price, and they accepted. We were amazed!
Yeah, it can be hard to guess what price the dealer will accept. That's why car buying is such an interesting experience.
Our ancestors had it much tougher when they had to buy a horse.
I also helped a friend buy an '05 accord and we found that Fairfax was not that competitive. MD had much better prices.
In order to better define the "number": I start by reading "prices paid" then visit a few other forums and places like fitzmall, carmax, carsdirect and http://www.autosbargain.com (their current claim is that '06 accords can be had $2k under invoice). Then I email a few dealers (some in a few states over) to discover the best price: that is the easiest way to define the left tail of the price dispersion. I have sometimes tried to "leverage" that number by trying the "bobst method" at my closest dealership but I have never been able to get them to take me seriously.
Example: When I bought my '03 Pilot, Fairfax Honda was charging full MSRP with $300 in junk fees. They laughed at me when I truthfully mentioned the deal I was getting by shipping the Pilot from OH and delivering it to my door with about $2k still left in my pocket! I never had to appear at a dealership which was a huge bonus... In addition, I had to wait for only 6 weeks whereas the wait was 3-4 months in VA.
We have had other Hondas serviced at Landmark in Alexandria and at Hendrick in Woodbridge and we were satisfied.
Do you mean they smoked a cigar or something in your car and drove it 20 miles? That's disgusting!
It sounds like you know how to do the research to determine the price you are willing to pay. That's good.
Shopping around can be more effort because many dealers to do not respond, not aswer important questions (like miles on their stock), etc. Knowing what others recently paid, defines the ball park so that you can dump the jockers that keep trying talk MSRP when their vehicles sell for over $5k below that. Price information there and similar sites are other bits of information that is highly useful and can be aquired in seconds...
I agree that NOTHING is a substitute for being informed However, being informed can be too much effort because if it takes 100 hours to figure out the best price it might be better to buy from your own uncle for a few hundred more... Creating a "relationship" can only "work" if it is sybiotic but my personal experience is that most dealerships focus on bundling and captive marketing but call it a "relationship".
Shopping local is not so great because not all markets were created equal, but some markets are more equal than others...
abraindrainer, from your previous posts I understand that you live in or around Fairfax VA, and that you recently purchased a Honda. I also live in Fairfax and I am beginning to shop for an Odyssey. Please share your recent shopping experience and why you came to that conclusion. Feel free to mention dealership names that you had experience with and how you were treated by them.
The worst was Landmark where they tried to cheat us out of an option they had agreed to give us, but that problem was resolved when we got up to leave and they changed their mind very quickly.
If you know exactly what you want and exactly how much you are willing to pay, any dealer should be OK.
Right now may not be the the best time to buy popular vehicles like Ody: '06 models are basically gone and the '07 discounting is NOT in full swing. For recent prices, I would start with reading the last few pages of this thread: Ody prices paid discussion. It seems from the details there that you can currently get an Ody for a few hundred under invoice.
Here is what I recommend: E-mail as many dealership as you can, even the ones outside of your desired driving range in order to establish the best price. Go a few rounds of emails by emailing your best price to all the contenders. Plan on giving yourself a few days because you may "have a life" and some dealerships take over 24 hours to respond. Once you reach a workable price/distance mix (after "fees" and before TTL) get purchase order in writing/fax so that you do not have renegotiate once you get there to pick it up. Better yet, have them mail you the contract to sign before you depart. It is amazing how many "mistakes" some of these sales people make...
Bobst, you sure like those Rosenthal stores. You have to be careful with them, they like to play games. Unfortunately for me the Fairfax store is the closest one to my house, and Tysons is second closest. I bought an Accord from Fairfax in 1999. I got it for $400 over the “published” invoice including the junk fees, but they paid me $500 over the black book for my trade-in. In 2004 they refused to match written lease quote from Ourisman. Both times they asked me if I am willing pay their mortgage, whatever. I still service at the Fairfax store, but so far I had only maintenance to deal with. I usually go there on Saturday mornings and wait. Haven’t had any issues yet.
abraindrainer, why do you think that our market is overpriced. With over 20 Honda stores in 40 mi radius, one would think it is very competitive.
The Rosenthal stores may have tricky sales managers but their F&I people have always been very efficient and professional. They even give us real license tags instead of the temporary cardboard ones.
I would follow Brain's advice and look at he Ody prices paid DG. However, instead of sending out a bunch of emails, you could do what we did - just walk into the dealer and offer a fixed OTD price and see if they accept.
If they refuse, then at least you have absolute proof that your offer is too low. You can come back later and offer a higher price or try somewhere else.
If they accept, you got a new car that you can take for a spin over to Harper's Ferry and Antietam Bettlefield. We live in a great area, don't we?
By the way, if you go to Harpers Ferry, be sure to stop for breakfast at the Cindy Dee Diner on the Maryland side of the Potomac. What a nice place!
I have absolutely no respect for Fairfax Honda :mad: , they are also my closest dealer but they have proven to be unprofessional in buying and service. Beware, that place is a real :lemon: !
Bobst, I think your advice is generally good. However, the cost of driving around can be hefty (compared to an email) and I also believe that there exist pricing difference between Internet and walkup channels. I have also found significant differences between dealerships. This claim is actually confirmed by EXB0: they "could" not match another offer? How is that possible? I have also recently noticed that one dealership would not give me X off whereas another one a couple hundred miles away offered [$X+2,000] OFF! Differences in dealer "volume" discount are important!
When we were looking for an Accord in 1997, we went to Fairfax Honda and offered $17300 OTD for one. They did not accept.
The next day I called and offered $17400 and the sales person said they would call back. They never did.
The next day, I called Tysons and offered $17400 and they accepted. We went there, gave them a check, and drove the new car home.
Like you say, sending emails may help us determine which dealer will give us the best price. Maybe next time I will try that.
well the mentality is if you won't give me your phone # you sure as heck arent giving me $20k of your money
I agree with this, as I posted on another thread. When I did my recent internet purchase, I included my phone number as well as an "opening bid," and I explained how I arrived at that price using invoice etc. The dealers I emailed were asked to make their offer at or below that price. Every one of them responded, and none of them abused my phone number. Three or four of them called with their offer, and we purchased from one of those callers (who followed it up in writing, of course). The others all called me back to see if we were still in the market, and when I explained we had made the purchase elsewhere, that was it...no bugging me with any more calls.
Initially, I would have agreed that internet dealers usually get hosed because a buyer will trot their offer into the closest dealer and but the car there. But our local dealer said they would match, then backed down when we got there, which taught me an important lesson: From now on, I will just buy from the internet dealer without giving the local place a shot anymore. The internet dealer was great to deal with...it would have removed 99 percent of the overall hassle if we had just dealt with them and removed the local dealer from the equation.
Of course, I am very, very specific in my request for an internet quote, i.e. I explain that I will not pay doc fees, extras, etc. and that I want an out the door price. That eliminates most of the things that could typically sour it in person.
With the bobst buying method it doesnt matter what games they try to play, they don't work...his buying process doesnt allow anything to happen other than "yes" or "no" to the offer...
How are deals normally confirmed in internet? Is my Disclosure of Numbers the same as a Buy Order? I have a previous email from the salesmen saying the deposit is "fully refundable and just gives you the right of first refusal." Is all this sufficient?
Yup that is really the beauty in his system. You can't get played if you don't play the game.
I can only speak from my own experience, but I didn't have an official Disclosure of Numbers or a Buy Order. The internet manager simply sent me an email detailing everything about the transction (i.e. car price, tax, title, and out the door price...sort of like an unofficial disclosure of numbers, I suppose), plus the VIN number of the vehicle that I was purchasing and a description (mainly color and LX, since it didn't have any options). In the email, he stated that he would sell me that specific vehicle at that specific price. I don't know if it would hold up in court, but he kept his end of the bargain and I kept mine : ) I would think that as long as you have something very specific in writing that leaves no margin for error (i.e. room for them to slip in junk fees etc.), you would be fine.
I was friendly; I included my full name and phone numbers; I provided the date I'll be ready to buy (Dec. 29th); I provided a clear, detailed list of the car/options I'm looking for (HD; SK; NV; P2; VS; FE; WL; CF; and MG); I let them know that I'm willing to wait if it needs to be preferenced or ordered; I informed them that I wouldn't be trading in anything; and I asked that they contact me via e-mail at this point, even though I provided them with my phone numbers.
I concluded with a request for their lowest OTD quote, and let them know I looked forward to hearing from them.
I'd like to be able to say that I've heard back from each of them, but ....
.... that's not the case.
I recieved one e-mail back informing me that he wouldn't have the car until late January, and to contact him for an appointment (translation: Come in to the dealership). Uh, no. Sorry. That defeats the entire point of the Internet Department!
I wrote back thanking him for his rapid response, and reiterated that I'm willing to wait for the car to be ordered; I realized going into this that he may not have the car on the lot. I said that though I may not DRIVE the car off the lot on Dec. 29th, I can make an AGREEMENT by the 29th, and since he's the Internet Manager I'd prefer to make my "appointment" right here, via our respective computers.
This is what just arrived (his CAPS, not mine):
WOULD NEED TO ADD THE ITEMS YOU ARE REQUESTING,IN THE HOPES THE FACTORY WILL ACCEPT THEM.iT MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT TO GIVE YOU A PRICE ,SINCE I WOULD NOT HAVE MY COST AVAILABLE TO ME UNTIL THE CAR SHIPS IN LATE JANUARY.BASE PRICE WITHOUT VS,WL, MG AND P2 WOULD BE IN THE $30,000.00 RANGE BEFORE FEES.i CANT ADD ITEMS TO CARS UNTIL I HAVE A FIRM COMMITMENT TO BUY THE CAR.HOPE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THEE PREDICIMENT I AM PUT IN.
It seems like a Catch 22 to me, but I'm not familiar enough with the logistics of the business to know if it's accurate or not. AND ... his "base" price is a lot less base than mine! According to my research the invoice price, with options (not including TTL) is under $28,500. Am I that far off in my calculations??? What's the next step with an e-mail like this? Is this where the "back and forth" part I've heard so much about begins - and if so, what do I say - or is it the end of the discussion?
I've not heard from any of the other three dealers I e-mailed.
Perhaps my expectations were/are unrealistic; maybe it takes DAYS, not hours, to hear back from these guys (or gals).
What if NONE of the other dealers respond!?!? Truthfully, I'd not even considered that possibility. Ugh.
The only vehicular card I've left in my pocket is with my local AAA and their Car Purchasing Program. I spoke with the gentleman several weeks ago (he's the fleet manager with a local Toyota Dealership). I was hoping to at least have an idea of what other dealers are offering if/when I spoke with him next.
This is my only day off until Friday, and I was hoping to get at least a good start on my diologues - heck, I was even thinking I may have made a concrete deal today! - but at this rate ... not much is happening. At all. Bleh.
Anyways ... I was just checking in with those of you who have experience in matters such as this. Feel free to let me know if my exectations are a bit out of allignment (bad pun, I know) and I'll adjust accordingly. Or if there are options I have of which I am unaware.
I thank you in advance, as always.
A bit disappointedly,
Catherine
I would suggest the "Jipst" method of getting a internet price quote. Go to the 4 dealerships, pick out one vehicle that you like from each lot. Write all available information including the vin#, options, color etc. Then contact the internet managers and negotiate a price.
I would guess that Toyota dealers will be less responsive than most others. They have growing sales and are not likely having to work too hard to find buyers.