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i didn't say that... but if it was black or white like you state then i wouldn't buy from the "sleaseball", but the gray area would be fully explored before i bought the car. the previous post says something like some salespeople won't quote because it's a was of time, well, the sales pro has to make their own call about time/money but the store calls the shots, not the salesperson. if i was a sales guy i'd at least offer a range to them, my gosh, write a standard "shopper's email" response and at least try... but what do i know?
O.K. here's how to get the best deal. Get the actual dealer cost off edmunds. Block off 3 hours on the last day of the month,preferably 12/31. You are going to do to the salesman what he is trying to do to you. Grind him for 3 hours. Also write on the invoice you are negotiating on "How much additional incentive over and above the holdback is the mfg.paying to the dealership on this car?" Deduct any additional incentive from the edmunds invoice cost. Don't pay anymore! The dealer makes the holdback,about 3% on the invoice price. They will usually accept this. P.S. Check the internet on the incentive amount before going to the dealer,sometimes they lie.
I'm having the same problem here in Orlando looking for a Toyota Tundra truck. My problem is that they are in short supply right now since the new redesigned 2007 model hasn't hit the dealers yet. But man, there's a $4K incentive right now. I should have started my search the end of December or even November. . There's even a dealer with a USED 2006 Tundra with only 100 miles, yes that's right 100 miles. They're asking about $1500 OVER MSRP after the incentive. They're not "doing whatever it takes" to earn my business. That's their advertising slogan......doing whatever it takes. Ha.
BUT, there are many problems with what you propose: (1) many incentives are not public and are based on volume and thus they vary between dealerships and regions; (2) Holdback is not "profit" unless you are snatching the car out of the supply chain as opposed to a unit that has hang around on the dealer lot for 6+ months; (3) some vehicles do NOT sell for invoice because demand/supply balance is as such that dealers know they can get more; (4) Some do not want to spend 3 hours to grind anyone.
So why is that a problem? Buyers should do their research and come up "with some number on their own".
Of course, after their offer has been refused by a few dealers, the buyers will soon realize they will have to increase their ofer if they want to own the vehicle they want.
The fantasy land buyer is a common problem. I am dealing with this woman who is in fantasy land right now. She thinks she can buy a loaded XC90 T6 with nav and everything for $24,000 since she saw one advertised on autotrader a few weeks ago for that price. I think what she is forgeting, selective memory perhaps, that the one advertised had 20,000 more miles, no warranty and probably didn't even have nav etc.
Doesn't matter what I tell her though I should sell my car to her for that price and I am being unreasonable.
Real price for that car is around 30,000 dollars or so.
Of course it doesn't matter. Like me, she probably doesn't believe anything a car dealer tells her.
Since you have refused her offer, you have told her very clearly that she will have to pay more if she wants an XC90 T6, whatever that is. She should appreciate the education you have given her.
I'd have a hard time believing a dealer as well, if it were out of line with the information I had.
I didn't believe the salesmanager when he told me my invoice price was to low on the vehicle I wanted to purchase. I told him I would go home and recheck my sources. Amazingly he came down to my price when I started to walk. :shades:
Rover, come on, this cuts both ways? Dealers never make up any numbers? I have been told that online number are WRONG? Everything you hear online is made up!? I have been so many time that inoice is the true cost...
I think the point is that (most) consumer do NOT pull the numbers out of their... pocket. A few are out to lunch, so as per bobst method, the salespeople should walk... by saying: "this is my number, take or leave it"
I had always been straight up with this woman just like I am straight up with everyone. She had come in once looked over the car and I told her the price.
She was supposed to come back a few days later with her trade so I could look that over and she never did. Since we were thousands of dollars apart in price I never followed up with her. She called me back a few days later and took another shot at me. I told her the same price because that was the bottom line. She told me to call her back when I got serious... :confuse:
About a week and a half later she called back again to see if I was ready to sell the volvo. As it had been a couple of weeks now I put her on hold for a minute to check and see if we had moved our position on that car.
Hmhh nope as long as she wants it certified we can't move on the price. Told her that and she replied with well I guess you don't want to sell anything and I will have to buy some where else.
Fine with me as no one is going to sell her an equivelant vehicle at that price.
RE: Online numbers.
Sometimes they are incorrect. Going back from July of 2005 through about March of 2006 we had not sold a Single Range Rover Sport for less then sticker. Now according to TMV the price of that vehicle in our area had dropped over 2,000 dollars... :surprise:
Odd since we are the only rover dealer for nearly two hours in any direction and are the closest rover dealer for people in three states.
Obviously the TMV system for us is flawed because it takes in too wide of a geographic area. It probably picks up the big volume dealers in the NYC area who had started whoring cars out towards the end of the year.
I am not talking about TMV, it is JUNK! I was talking about invoice, public incentives (manufacturer to dealer), etc.
BTW: If you are the only Rover dealer in the immediate area, you probably can just inflate your prices because 2 hours is a huge barrier to competition. Of course, you will lose some volume but I am sure that you can tweak the P*Q just right... Personally, I would be happy to spend an evening and take a 2 hour train ride plus 2 hour drive for even $1k but that assumes that one is able and adequately informed.
I was talking about invoice, public incentives (manufacturer to dealer), etc.
When I show an invoice, it is a true invoice. Sometimes customers do not include RAG (regional advertising ) costs that show on our invoices. Or they leave out destination charges.
Also Manufacture to dealer incentives (dealer cash) is just that. The dealer can choose if he wants to pass it or part of it or none of it on to the consumer. It is not "public" money like a rebate is. A dealer is reimbursed by the manufacturer for rebates.
There are many incentives that are public and some are not. Either way, I agree that there is no requirement to disclose those.
There is also no issue about showing invoice but there are issues with claiming that it is real cost because 99% of the time it is NOT!
However, once the salesman mentions: "I need profit" or "I would lose money" and the consumers plays the manufacture to dealer incentive car, there is no going back. It is not OK to outright lie about their existence or amount!
Bottom line: non-disclosure is considered palatable but outright lying is not! In fact many dealers like to dance around fact: 1. I think there are may be 20 miles on that unit parked in the back lot but then whoops there 250 miles on it; 2. 200+ is normal and most of our cars sell with more that many; 3. it is a demo (with 5000 miles of test drives) but it is new becuase it has never been titled; 4. We will beat anyone's price by $500... Ok, how about this dealership posted number or this PO, sorry, I cannot do that, I would lose money? What about your word? How can I earn your business? 5. There is no profit at invoice. . . .
Expecting it and dealing with it are really part of everyday life even if one never steps into a dealership. However, I still think it is NOT ok! If it were written down and can be proven in court, it would be "illegal" or financially punishable.
I can negotiate as hard as anyone if I think it is profitable (given my time investment) but I do not need to resort to that... I suspect that you do not either, do you, bobst?
Bobst, you do not "lie during the negotiations! There is not an opportunity for that when you simly say: this unit for $X? No? Thank you, have a nice day! In fact, your technique ignores all inputs from the salesperson! This is all very attractive. However, it assumes that you can nail the price without negotiations!
I think in many instances, I can to get a good price (bottom quartile), but I have found that it is very difficult to nail the price in bottom 5%! I am not talking about car shopping only, I am saying that it is difficult to determine price dispersion for all kinds of goods.
sorry, i don't buy it, an informed buyer doesn't need to think the dealer is lying (if you want to go down that road, then most salespeople are being lied to by their managers - how about that?); actually an informed buyer doesn't care if the dealer is lying because the buyer has a mission to buy the car they want at the lowest possible price. an informed buyer gets a price quote that includes all "out the door" costs (tax, doc and title fees) from 3 dealerships and 3 online quotes from dealers within 30-50 miles radius of home or work; bingo, a no brainer, what's so hard about that? any pro salesperson can deal with shoppers. actually, the pros deal with it everyday. can't get'em all, but try. NEXT! my friends in the car biz call the non-shoppers "laydowns", thanks to them, people who don't shoparound, my buddies can pay their bills. i guess the bottom line is the dealer will maximize profit on those they cam and they'll take short deals when they have too. i guess that's pretty simple stuff to understand. sounds normal to me.
an informed buyer doesn't need to think the dealer is lying
This is only partially true because you need pricing information (quotes) from dealers in order to become "more" informed.
most salespeople are being lied to by their managers Certainly so!
an informed buyer gets a price quote that includes all "out the door" costs (tax, doc and title fees) from 3 dealerships and 3 online quotes from dealers within 30-50 miles radius of home or work
There are lies even within OTD numbers. IMHO 6 quotes is not nearly enough and I think that it is wise to shop outside of the your own region or state.
non-shoppers "laydowns" Yes, the 80-20 rule always applies!
Like I said earlier, your method will likely get you in the bottom quartile but it may not get you in the best tenth... Your sample might be too small to measure the true price dispersion... or be "fully" informed. Of course, in some markets/products, the difference between those prices will NOT justify the effort.
i guess the bottom line is the dealer will maximize profit on those they cam and they'll take short deals when they have too. i
You hit the nail on the head. If a salesperson only hits home runs, he is missing deals. If they only have short deals, they are order takers, not salespeople. A good salesman will hit home runs, take short deals, and have some in between.
A good salesman will hit home runs, take short deals, and have some in between
In Internet sales, there are almost no home runs if those buyers are trully informed. Even in betweens might be difficult and majority of them will probably be shorts?
Isellhondas, how many whales do you get... maybe occasionally on the back end?
Almost all buyers "nail the price without negotiations".
They know they will not spend over a certain amount for the car they want. For example, they may want to buy the car for $20K, but they know for certain they will not spend over $22K.
To make it simple, I just walk in and offer $22K.
Sure, I could offer $20K and then negotiate for awhile, but I know that I am a crummy negotiator, so the sales person will eventually get me to increase my offer to $22k and I won't enjoy the experience.
Instead, my first offer is the absolutely positively utmost highest amount I wil pay for the car.
In addition, I think I am being a considerate buyer because I don't waste the sales person's time. Could I be any more of a wonderful person?
From my experience, an 'online quote' is the amount of money the dealer wants for their car. It has no relation to the amount they are willing to accept.
The only way to learn how much the dealer will accept is to go there in person, lay your money on the table, and see if they pick it up.
With a bit of that old positive attitude you're always spinning, I bet you could be a very good negotiator. After 7 years at Edmunds, married, raising 2 or 3 kids, and being in your 50's(?) ... what could possibly frighten you? It's time to try something new(er) bobst, ya only live once.
In reguards to being considerate. I believe most salesmen would think it inconsiderate to be handed a piece of paper with your, "take it or leave it offer" ... to be handed off to the sales manager, as if they are a monkey or something.(insert monkey emotorcon here)
Well, bobst, all I can say is that my experience actually buying 4 new vehicles online has been exactly to the contrary - the quoted price in each case was the price I paid.
Now, I will say that the last of those transactions occurred in 2004. It does sound as though the concept is being ruined by dealers just using it to generate sales leads and buyers who either aren't serious or who are trying to wring the last fifty bucks out of a deal.
Instead, my first offer is the absolutely positively utmost highest amount I wil pay for the car.
You are missing the point if you do that! I think that a wiser approach may be to figure out the price dispersion range that is possible (prices paid experience forums is a good start). You really want to know: what is the lowest price that anyone in the nation has paid for something similar. You may then deside that you do not want kill yourself with work and bump that number up a few percentage points or something like $300-500. Then you can safely start with the Bobst method... but it could require a few bumps... and/or dealership visits.
Disclosing your own reservation price could allow you to leave too much money on the table than you could or should
From my experience, an 'online quote' is the amount of money the dealer wants for their car. It has no relation to the amount they are willing to accept.
I disagree! Online quote strategy is NOT a waste of time. I have gotten some fantastic quotes, from the first online contact that were far below my reservation price. But even then there is typically "some" more but room. I agree that many dealerships only use the quote to bait the buyers and drag them into the show room but there are plenty that really understand the mindset of the informed shopper and those are the one that have gotten my business in the past.
BTW: I have found that almost all the Honda NVA dealerships (the ones that you have worked) do NOT belong to the group. :sick: Most of them do NOT understand anything about online shoppers. In my experience, MD Honda dealerships are much better and take the online dealing much more seriously! To them it is a different and distinct channel. But as always YMMV...
If they don't accept the offer. Walk! They are going to call you back w/in 3 days if they even let you get out the door. The key is to make them invest their floor time in you so they feel they have something to lose.
"the quoted price in each case was the price I paid."
I do not doubt what you say. However, if you had walked into the dealer and offered less than their quoted price, do you think they might have accepted it? You never know until you try.
"BTW: I have found that almost all the Honda NVA dealerships (the ones that you have worked) do NOT belong to the group. Most of them do NOT understand anything about online shoppers."
When we bought our Accord a couple years ago, I asked the local Honda dealers for quotes. I got three quotes very quickly, so we went to the dealer that had the lowest quote, offered $500 lower, and they lapped it up.
That's why I think a 'dealer quote' has no relation to the price they will accept.
Good negotiator? No, not me. I can't think on the spur of the moment. I have made to many on-the-spot decisions that I later regertted.
Negotiating does not frighten me any more than competing against the great Kobiyashi in an eating contest. It is just something that I do not enjoy.
Other than that, you have me figured out pretty well - 61 years old, married, semi-retired, two kids out the door and married, and I think I have found a way to improve my golf game.
What could frighten me? Coming face-to-face with a large bear when I am on the Appalachian Trail.
I heard about it happening to one guy. When the bear saw him, it got down on its knees and started to pray. The guy said, "I'm in luck - a God fearing bear". Then the bear said, "Dear Lord, I thank you for this meal I am about to receive."
I will say it's best to use the strategy most comfortable for you. Usually if a salesperson gives me a line I'm not comfortable with, I'll either nod my head in silence... or say I'll need to leave to recheck my figures and get back with them.
Reguarding hungry bears, a good friend of mine was in Montana a few years back. He and his wife saw a bear a hundred yards or so in the distance. His wife turned around asking what they should do... only to see my friend 20 yards down the path, kicking up dirt... and hollering run.
Don't know and don't care because in each case the price I paid was the absolute lowest that I could reasonably expect based on then current market conditions. In only one did I get a lower quote elsewhere (by about $100 for a color I couldn't stand).
Besides, these were all out of town deals where an in-person visit was not really an option.
Based on my experience trying to get internet quotes locally last summer, I've come to the conclusion that trying to work an out of town deal over the internet may be the best way to find a skinny deal because a selling dealer KNOWS it's a "bonus" sale he'd never otherwise get. Obviously, not all dealers care about that but some do and the trick is just to find them.
Agreed: The opening quote is typically not the lowest you can get. It is probably similar to Costco pricing. For example, I have asked some dealers to improve their quote and many will do so by a few hundred right off the bat!
I had the same experience. Out of town dealers seem to like "stealing" deals from outside of their market. The last two times I tried to purchase cars from dealers closest to my home it didn't work. They were far above other dealers on price. I assume it has to do with the dealerships being located in an area where the buyers are affluent. I could be wrong.
When we bought our Accord a couple years ago, I asked the local Honda dealers for quotes.
Bobst, if you only asked local VA dealers for quotes, than I agree with you, those quotes were meaningless.
While shopping for Odyssey last week, I requested quotes from dealers in the 60 mile radius. The best VA quote I got was $800 (adjusted for junk fees) more than the best MD dealer quote. As a matter of fact, every MD dealer quote was less than the lowest VA dealer quote. Also, if I remember correctly, Bobst, you got $500 worth in accessories, not the actual dollar discount. If you got $500 in accessories, that is probably only about $200 in actual cost to the dealer. I could be wrong.
Buying a car over the internet works. There is always one dealer who knows that you are gathering quotes, and he is willing to undercut every other dealer with his quote.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
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There's even a dealer with a USED 2006 Tundra with only 100 miles, yes that's right 100 miles. They're asking about $1500 OVER MSRP after the incentive. They're not "doing whatever it takes" to earn my business. That's their advertising slogan......doing whatever it takes. Ha.
BUT, there are many problems with what you propose: (1) many incentives are not public and are based on volume and thus they vary between dealerships and regions; (2) Holdback is not "profit" unless you are snatching the car out of the supply chain as opposed to a unit that has hang around on the dealer lot for 6+ months; (3) some vehicles do NOT sell for invoice because demand/supply balance is as such that dealers know they can get more; (4) Some do not want to spend 3 hours to grind anyone.
Some makes don't have holdback...
And some makes don't have incentives.
Of course, after their offer has been refused by a few dealers, the buyers will soon realize they will have to increase their ofer if they want to own the vehicle they want.
Doesn't matter what I tell her though I should sell my car to her for that price and I am being unreasonable.
Real price for that car is around 30,000 dollars or so.
Of course it doesn't matter. Like me, she probably doesn't believe anything a car dealer tells her.
Since you have refused her offer, you have told her very clearly that she will have to pay more if she wants an XC90 T6, whatever that is. She should appreciate the education you have given her.
I didn't believe the salesmanager when he told me my invoice price was to low on the vehicle I wanted to purchase. I told him I would go home and recheck my sources. Amazingly he came down to my price when I started to walk. :shades:
I think the point is that (most) consumer do NOT pull the numbers out of their... pocket. A few are out to lunch, so as per bobst method, the salespeople should walk... by saying: "this is my number, take or leave it"
She was supposed to come back a few days later with her trade so I could look that over and she never did. Since we were thousands of dollars apart in price I never followed up with her. She called me back a few days later and took another shot at me. I told her the same price because that was the bottom line. She told me to call her back when I got serious... :confuse:
About a week and a half later she called back again to see if I was ready to sell the volvo. As it had been a couple of weeks now I put her on hold for a minute to check and see if we had moved our position on that car.
Hmhh nope as long as she wants it certified we can't move on the price. Told her that and she replied with well I guess you don't want to sell anything and I will have to buy some where else.
Fine with me as no one is going to sell her an equivelant vehicle at that price.
RE: Online numbers.
Sometimes they are incorrect. Going back from July of 2005 through about March of 2006 we had not sold a Single Range Rover Sport for less then sticker. Now according to TMV the price of that vehicle in our area had dropped over 2,000 dollars... :surprise:
Odd since we are the only rover dealer for nearly two hours in any direction and are the closest rover dealer for people in three states.
Obviously the TMV system for us is flawed because it takes in too wide of a geographic area. It probably picks up the big volume dealers in the NYC area who had started whoring cars out towards the end of the year.
BTW: If you are the only Rover dealer in the immediate area, you probably can just inflate your prices because 2 hours is a huge barrier to competition. Of course, you will lose some volume but I am sure that you can tweak the P*Q just right... Personally, I would be happy to spend an evening and take a 2 hour train ride plus 2 hour drive for even $1k but that assumes that one is able and adequately informed.
When I show an invoice, it is a true invoice. Sometimes customers do not include RAG (regional advertising ) costs that show on our invoices. Or they leave out destination charges.
Also Manufacture to dealer incentives (dealer cash) is just that. The dealer can choose if he wants to pass it or part of it or none of it on to the consumer. It is not "public" money like a rebate is. A dealer is reimbursed by the manufacturer for rebates.
There are many incentives that are public and some are not. Either way, I agree that there is no requirement to disclose those.
There is also no issue about showing invoice but there are issues with claiming that it is real cost because 99% of the time it is NOT!
However, once the salesman mentions: "I need profit" or "I would lose money" and the consumers plays the manufacture to dealer incentive car, there is no going back. It is not OK to outright lie about their existence or amount!
Bottom line: non-disclosure is considered palatable but outright lying is not! In fact many dealers like to dance around fact:
1. I think there are may be 20 miles on that unit parked in the back lot but then whoops there 250 miles on it;
2. 200+ is normal and most of our cars sell with more that many;
3. it is a demo (with 5000 miles of test drives) but it is new becuase it has never been titled;
4. We will beat anyone's price by $500... Ok, how about this dealership posted number or this PO, sorry, I cannot do that, I would lose money? What about your word? How can I earn your business?
5. There is no profit at invoice.
.
.
.
I disagree. I have no problem if the dealer lies to me. In fact, I expect it and I am ready to deal with it.
I can negotiate as hard as anyone if I think it is profitable (given my time investment) but I do not need to resort to that... I suspect that you do not either, do you, bobst?
Side note.
The woman on the XC90 called me again this morning.
Still wants my car but wants to pay below auction value for it... :confuse:
I think in many instances, I can to get a good price (bottom quartile), but I have found that it is very difficult to nail the price in bottom 5%! I am not talking about car shopping only, I am saying that it is difficult to determine price dispersion for all kinds of goods.
This is only partially true because you need pricing information (quotes) from dealers in order to become "more" informed.
most salespeople are being lied to by their managers Certainly so!
an informed buyer gets a price quote that includes all "out the door" costs (tax, doc and title fees) from 3 dealerships and 3 online quotes from dealers within 30-50 miles radius of home or work
There are lies even within OTD numbers. IMHO 6 quotes is not nearly enough and I think that it is wise to shop outside of the your own region or state.
non-shoppers "laydowns" Yes, the 80-20 rule always applies!
Like I said earlier, your method will likely get you in the bottom quartile but it may not get you in the best tenth... Your sample might be too small to measure the true price dispersion... or be "fully" informed. Of course, in some markets/products, the difference between those prices will NOT justify the effort.
You hit the nail on the head. If a salesperson only hits home runs, he is missing deals. If they only have short deals, they are order takers, not salespeople. A good salesman will hit home runs, take short deals, and have some in between.
In Internet sales, there are almost no home runs if those buyers are trully informed. Even in betweens might be difficult and majority of them will probably be shorts?
Isellhondas, how many whales do you get... maybe occasionally on the back end?
They know they will not spend over a certain amount for the car they want. For example, they may want to buy the car for $20K, but they know for certain they will not spend over $22K.
To make it simple, I just walk in and offer $22K.
Sure, I could offer $20K and then negotiate for awhile, but I know that I am a crummy negotiator, so the sales person will eventually get me to increase my offer to $22k and I won't enjoy the experience.
Instead, my first offer is the absolutely positively utmost highest amount I wil pay for the car.
In addition, I think I am being a considerate buyer because I don't waste the sales person's time. Could I be any more of a wonderful person?
From my experience, an 'online quote' is the amount of money the dealer wants for their car. It has no relation to the amount they are willing to accept.
The only way to learn how much the dealer will accept is to go there in person, lay your money on the table, and see if they pick it up.
I would think an SUV like that would be more common and she would have tried other dealers and she would have learned what they cost.
On the other hand, she may be trying to build up the courage to ask you out. I know you are looking forward to her next call.
With a bit of that old positive attitude you're always spinning, I bet you could be a very good negotiator. After 7 years at Edmunds, married, raising 2 or 3 kids, and being in your 50's(?) ... what could possibly frighten you? It's time to try something new(er) bobst, ya only live once.
In reguards to being considerate. I believe most salesmen would think it inconsiderate to be handed a piece of paper with your, "take it or leave it offer" ... to be handed off to the sales manager, as if they are a monkey or something.(insert monkey emotorcon here)
Now, I will say that the last of those transactions occurred in 2004. It does sound as though the concept is being ruined by dealers just using it to generate sales leads and buyers who either aren't serious or who are trying to wring the last fifty bucks out of a deal.
You are missing the point if you do that! I think that a wiser approach may be to figure out the price dispersion range that is possible (prices paid experience forums is a good start). You really want to know: what is the lowest price that anyone in the nation has paid for something similar. You may then deside that you do not want kill yourself with work and bump that number up a few percentage points or something like $300-500. Then you can safely start with the Bobst method... but it could require a few bumps... and/or dealership visits.
Disclosing your own reservation price
From my experience, an 'online quote' is the amount of money the dealer wants for their car. It has no relation to the amount they are willing to accept.
I disagree! Online quote strategy is NOT a waste of time. I have gotten some fantastic quotes, from the first online contact that were far below my reservation price. But even then there is typically "some" more but room. I agree that many dealerships only use the quote to bait the buyers and drag them into the show room but there are plenty that really understand the mindset of the informed shopper and those are the one that have gotten my business in the past.
BTW: I have found that almost all the Honda NVA dealerships (the ones that you have worked) do NOT belong to the group. :sick: Most of them do NOT understand anything about online shoppers. In my experience, MD Honda dealerships are much better and take the online dealing much more seriously! To them it is a different and distinct channel. But as always YMMV...
I do not doubt what you say. However, if you had walked into the dealer and offered less than their quoted price, do you think they might have accepted it? You never know until you try.
When we bought our Accord a couple years ago, I asked the local Honda dealers for quotes. I got three quotes very quickly, so we went to the dealer that had the lowest quote, offered $500 lower, and they lapped it up.
That's why I think a 'dealer quote' has no relation to the price they will accept.
Good negotiator? No, not me. I can't think on the spur of the moment. I have made to many on-the-spot decisions that I later regertted.
Negotiating does not frighten me any more than competing against the great Kobiyashi in an eating contest. It is just something that I do not enjoy.
Other than that, you have me figured out pretty well - 61 years old, married, semi-retired, two kids out the door and married, and I think I have found a way to improve my golf game.
What could frighten me? Coming face-to-face with a large bear when I am on the Appalachian Trail.
I heard about it happening to one guy. When the bear saw him, it got down on its knees and started to pray. The guy said, "I'm in luck - a God fearing bear". Then the bear said, "Dear Lord, I thank you for this meal I am about to receive."
Reguarding hungry bears, a good friend of mine was in Montana a few years back. He and his wife saw a bear a hundred yards or so in the distance. His wife turned around asking what they should do... only to see my friend 20 yards down the path, kicking up dirt... and hollering run.
Besides, these were all out of town deals where an in-person visit was not really an option.
Based on my experience trying to get internet quotes locally last summer, I've come to the conclusion that trying to work an out of town deal over the internet may be the best way to find a skinny deal because a selling dealer KNOWS it's a "bonus" sale he'd never otherwise get. Obviously, not all dealers care about that but some do and the trick is just to find them.
So you are choosing NOT to disclose?
Agreed: The opening quote is typically not the lowest you can get. It is probably similar to Costco pricing. For example, I have asked some dealers to improve their quote and many will do so by a few hundred right off the bat!
Only an idiot would disclose private information on a public forum.
Besides, you seem to have a total grasp on the industry, so why would you ask me?
When we bought our Accord a couple years ago, I asked the local Honda dealers for quotes.
Bobst, if you only asked local VA dealers for quotes, than I agree with you, those quotes were meaningless.
While shopping for Odyssey last week, I requested quotes from dealers in the 60 mile radius. The best VA quote I got was $800 (adjusted for junk fees) more than the best MD dealer quote. As a matter of fact, every MD dealer quote was less than the lowest VA dealer quote. Also, if I remember correctly, Bobst, you got $500 worth in accessories, not the actual dollar discount. If you got $500 in accessories, that is probably only about $200 in actual cost to the dealer. I could be wrong.
Buying a car over the internet works. There is always one dealer who knows that you are gathering quotes, and he is willing to undercut every other dealer with his quote.