Internet vs. Traditional Car Buying

british_rover

Average price of a new car now is in the mid to upper 20,000 range so 50,000 dollars would be the start of true high line sales.

At the level you are dealing with most of the salespeople are just doing a job not a career. The whole sales staff is being turned over in a few months and no one builds much product knowledge or customer base.

There are exceptions to that rule, Isellhonda's dealership sounds like a low line dealership I could work at, but at most lower level dealers there is a huge turnover in sales staff.

boomchek

75% of our sales staff have been there over 2 years. Also a Honda dealership.

british_rover

Yeah your dealership seems good too although you are canada so I don't know if that counts... :P

andres3

Well, he would of made the time limit, but they didn't have the CIVIC EX 4 door sedan in the color she wanted (magnesium metallic) on the lot! Hard to believe since its a typical popular color on probably the most popular Civic model/style, and it was a fairly large dealer.

They had to go out about 40 miles away to a dealer that had the car she wanted, arrange for a "trade" and then make the deal. I guess we settled for too high a price, because they were very anxious to not lose this deal TODAY! It left me with a poorer impression of him than it otherwise would have been a perfect experience. He should have said you know what we don't have the car, but if you come back tomorrow everything will be ready for you and I guarantee we won't sell the car or raise our offer/deal price.

boomchek

Why would this leave you with a poorer impression? He told you straight up what happenned and what was going on.

The likely reason they were anxious is probably because they had a feeling you would cancel the deal on them (I have that feeling too judging from your last two posts)while they incurred costs to bring the car over.

:P

andres3

Why would this leave you with a poorer impression? He told you straight up what happenned and what was going on.

The reason it left me with a poor impression of the salesman and dealership was simple: I had expressed my dissatisfaction to him about my previous purchase experience there, and how it had dragged on for hours and hours for "lame' reasons. I told him they take way to long to close a deal and would delay and drag it on, he said no way, he'll deliver the car quickly, and close the deal and do all the paperwork in a timely manner. I told him there was no way we were buying TODAY because we didn't have time to go through all of that. Then he makes his promise. Then they have to break it. They also lied about the extra alarm we had paid to add to the vehicle. They said it covered a $1,000 deductible should the car be stolen. What they don't mention is that is only good for a year, and that the alarm is only warranted for 3 years. I had asked for the paperwork and data on the alarm system many times, only for them to produce it after we were ready to take delivery. We paid $350 for the alarm and when I complained they said that was already the bottom line cost on the alarm installed as it normally goes for $500, and that they couldn't further reduce it.

You know, typical dishonest car salesman. I knew I was right to call the bluff on the promises made verbally and ask for it in writing... and I was proven right.. Only I let it wait too long until they "FOUND" the alarm card info, fine print, and terms and conditions.

Needless to say, the next time I buy a Honda, it probably won't be at that dealership, unless they have the best online quote.

boomchek

I can see where your frustrations come from, and maybe they should have been upfront about the details of the alarm. However it is also your job to ask all these things, and say NO to something you don't want or are not sure about.

Sometimes when things are rushed, then info is missed, and people walk away confused and unhappy.

it probably won't be at that dealership, unless they have the best online quote.

By doing that you are basically saying that you'll put up with terrible service for the sake of saving a few bucks.

And also you are telling this "typical dishonest car salesman" that it's ok as to what he's doing because you'll reward him with business again. :confuse:

andres3

By doing that you are basically saying that you'll put up with terrible service for the sake of saving a few bucks.

And also you are telling this "typical dishonest car salesman" that it's ok as to what he's doing because you'll reward him with business again.

I don't think I'm saying that. I'm punishing the dealership's poor customer service and sales by saying they won't be my first choice (though they are located closest to where I live by at least a few miles!) next time around. So therefore, the next time I want a Honda.... if they come in with a lower quote... I'll give first right of refusal of an offer to another dealership. I'm just not willing to pay extra over principles They are losing out however, as they won't be the first dealership I visit either. I won't put up with bad service... I'd prefer good service, and if given some good service with good pricing, then I'll reward with some loyalty and first option future sales.

boomchek

Fair enough.

Anyhow, back to our scheduled programming.........

blufz1

So what? You think it's a grinder's conspiracy?

jmonroe

So what? You think it's a grinder's conspiracy?

No. If you want to grind that's your choice. I just don't spend more than 30 minutes buying a car (after the test drive).

I'm sure you like the grinding, otherwise you wouldn't do it. Just don't think that's the only way you get the best price because me and others here have done it faster (than 2 or 3 hours) with results that are at least as good.

jmonroe

blufz1

I see,you just go in and quickly and deftly "reason" with them.

shoparound

andres3, you said typical dishonest car salesman; i'd say typical dishonest dealership. imagine how the salesperson feels knowing that helping you find the car you want and buying it is only half the battle. the rep now must deal with management that shows signs of a personality disorder, once the rep gets past him or her then the rep knows you are going into finance where you will be presented with additional options and choices, alarm, window etching, curb side diner service, window tinting and cleaning at home and office, under sealing and clear coat protection (but they promise it won't peal off)... where does this come from, the sales person? I don't think so. It's the responsibility of the buyer to clearly state from the beginning, "I am buying the car. I will not buy any additional products." Salespeople are "trained" professionals and they follow the dealership's program or they are politely asked to leave the building (unless they are selling 20 cars a month with vg csi, then they can do what they want... kidding).

jmonroe

I see,you just go in and quickly and deftly "reason" with them.

Sort of.

When I go into the dealership I have already done the long/hard part; the research. So when I show up, it's to test drive and do the paper work. In fact, the last two times I bought (2005 and 2006) I did the negotiating via the internet and phone. It really does work doing it like this.

Once you have done your research and have come to a price that is doable that's when the salesman goes off to "reason" with their sales manager.

jmonroe

british_rover

time wasting, grinding strat only works at certain stores.

It wouldn't work at mine because we don't do enough volume to care. There are only one or two days a month that are busy enough where I can't spend several hours with a single client. I also don't need to 'touch the desk' to either brush you off or close the deal. I might anyway just to get another point of view but I don't have to.

The same 3 hour strat is not going to work at a hard line turnover house where you meet a green pea for the demo who hands you over to someone else. That person sizes you up and then may hand you over to a dedicated closer or try to close you some himself. Depending on how that goes they might bring in the sales manager, F&I manager, business manager and whatever other 'manager' they can think of.

They are going to wear you down because there is just one of you and several of them.

shoparound

... so there is no difference between "Internet vs. Traditional Car Buying"?

british_rover

Honestly for most makes I think you can get a better price by going in person to a couple of local stores then sending out 25 email requests to all of the dealerships in the state.

jipster

They are going to wear you down...

Doubtful... at least with buyers who know what they're doing.

I tend to agree with blufz on this. After exchanging a few e-mails, with my good buddy socala4 and his brother pch101, they confirmed the principle that time investment is an intracal part in obtaining the best price from a dealership.

Spending "1-3 hours" as blufz suggested is good strategy. As with any negotiation there comes a point where you need to show the dealership you will walk. You don't just stand there for hours on end, being "handed over" to everyone including the lot attendant.

Now we're probably only talking a couple hundred bucks(maybe more) from the "30 minutes in and out approach" favored by many. Enough money to buy your way into the VIP section of Tidesters Fan Club, or buy that gold plated false tooth you've always wanted.

lrguy44

What Rover says is quite true. At our place, the junior sales guide has been here almost 3 years, and he had prior brand experience. We work our own deals at our desk. We are empowered to make a deal. We may touch base with the sales manager if things get tight, but it is our decision. No turns. When the deal is done, we all do our own finance. Our customers love it. By the way, our sales CSI is over regional and national average. Most of customers have done research, but rely on us to explain and demonstrate the nuances of the vehicle. It is fun dealing with informed, reasonable clientele.

jipster

Let's be real, the reason you guys can work that way is due to low volume. If you had the numbers come in that the "low end" dealerships have, you'd be turning the deal over to SM and F&I just the same, and then you'd have to call yourselves salesmen.... instead of "Sales Guides". OUCH...I bet that would hurt.

It is fun dealing with informed, reasonable clientele.

As opposed to the stupid and unreasonable people that the "unclean" low end salesmen have to sell to? These broad generalizations and uppity charactersations of yourself and your clientele do nothing for your credibility... IMO.

shoparound

british_rover - there's no way I'm limiting myself to a couple of local stores, I'm looking for color and equipment and price; I'm not shopping for a smiling face or to be treated first class... with all due respect, I'm buying a car.

british_rover

We are in the top five of our volume group currently for CSI. I think we are about 1 percentage point out of first place.

shoparound

jmonroe - perhaps it's a regional thing but i don't see 1/2 hour deals happening in any of the regions i've lived, must be me. from parking car to getting passed the meet and greet to actually looking at a car is 1/2 hour, for me. ok are you suggesting that i muscle everybody around? ok even after 1/2 hour test drive, there's an hour, now you say the clock starts there? it's 1/2 hour or i'm walking, is that the plan? if that's your system, bulldoggin', it's not going to work out very well for average joes like me, a system has to be able to be duplicated, validated by others, that means men, women of all shapes and sizes. i'll give you this, if you have it down pat, and the dealer's f&i is on time for that midmorning appointment (they're going to be real excited to see you) and the car was detailed the night before (ooops, maybe not, or maybe it was scratched), and the paperwork can be found and your sales person shows up and the manager and the f&i goes along with it (another oooops) and there isn't some other common mishap that happens everyday, then if the stars are all lined up, yeah, I can see a 1/2 hour deal. But I assure you, the salesperson isn't allowed to hand you the key and say good-bye, or in your system do i get to add another 1/2 hour for delivery? hey, i'm just trying to understand. i say 2-3 hours from parking on the lot to saying goodbye and that's if everything goes as planned.

lrguy44

I didn't say anything about the people that low end dealers deal with - and I don't like their tactics any better than you do. I was saying that the higher the dollar ticket on a car, the more service the clients expect and get - and they appreciate a professional salesperson - or whatever you ant to call us.

lrguy44

Good job - I can see your store is a good place - except for pack

jipster

Not hard to read between the lines. It's understandable that you would want to seperate yourself from the "low end" salespeople by calling yourselves sales guides. But, I find it difficult to believe "all" of your high end clientel are both informed and reasonable. I believe all of us car consumers "appreciate a professional salesperson", and expect good service...whether they are buying high end or low. If you're saying you increase your odds of getting better service by going high end, well.. that's probably true.

lrguy44

Amen - actually we are called sales guides for a couple of reasons - First, our off road safari tradition and the fact that with the Land Rover Way (when put into practice fully by a dealership) the sales person "guides" the sale from beginning to end - including doing the F&I. One face through the whole process.

isellhondas

I'm surprised you haven't figured it out...

Socal - Southern California

pch101 - Pacific Coast Highway also known as 101

Located in, you guessed it, Southern California!

1racefan

"perhaps it's a regional thing but i don't see 1/2 hour deals happening in any of the regions i've lived, must be me."

I agree with you. I bought a car last year, and from my perspective, it was the nicest buying experience I have ever had, and it took 2 and a half hours.

We arrived at 6:00pm (had an appt), and test drove 2 different models. I already had my OTD offer for both vehicles worked out, and I had my own financing lined up.

Test drives were over at 6:45, and my wife was able to definitely pick one over the other during the test drive - she picked the "winner" based off of which one she could see out of the best from the driver's seat. We then went inside to negotiate, and that was completed by 7:05 (5 minute walk inside, 15 min negotiations).

The manufacturer was offering special financing, so I filled out the application for that (as it was lower than what my credit union could offer), and let them run it, which took until 7:30.

Wile we were doing the finance application, they sent the vehicle off to be prepped and detailed (it still had plastic on it from the factory), and sent it up the street to fill it up with gas.

We waited 15 mins (until 7:45) to get in with the F&I guy (they only had 1 working that evening), and we were out of the F&I office by 8:15.

They then put the temporary tags on it, and walked us around it to do a final inspection, and we were out by 8:30.

We did not grind during the negotiations, and we only spent about 30 minutes in with the F&I guy, but it still took about 2 and a half hours total.

british_rover

Yeah the pack is stupid and we are working on changing that but I don't know how long it will take.

I try to see the balance though since the used car pack is so low it kind of balances out but not really. :confuse:

And yes the sales guide moniker has its roots in off-road guiding. How many people can say there salesperson guided there 75,000 dollar vehicle through an obstacle course that would chew up and spit out 90% of the SUVs in the marketplace?

jipster

I assume most of the high end guides or salespeople that work with the customer from "beginning to end" have some college education? I think it would more profitable for all dealerships to work from this type of model. After building a repore with a customer over an hour or so and making the sale, it would be much easier to sell that extended warranty or other extras.

lrguy44

You do build trust and relationships with our method. But you treat the customer well. Maybe that is why about 50% of my business is repeat and referral. We all have experience. Our youngest sales guide is mid 30's with over 7 years with the store. Many of us are in our 50's and 60's and had corporate or military careers prior to having fun with this.

isellhondas

I don't think I could refer to myself as a "Sales Guide". I would probably bust out laughing. That;'s just not me.

And the Used Cars we sell are Used Cars although some people call them "Pre Owned". I just think that's corny.

lrguy44

But we get to work in shorts or cargo pants. No ties!!!!! For that you can call us "guides" and we don't care

british_rover

I almost always wear cargo paints. No one should see my legs.

Do you wear the knee socks when you have shorts on? I think you are supposed to. :P

Craig I know you want to drive someone across a rock course in a 50,000 dollar vehicle dont you?

lrguy44

What I love to see is someone in a brand new 90k Range Rover on one of our off-road events.

jmonroe

But I assure you, the salesperson isn't allowed to hand you the key and say good-bye, or in your system do i get to add another 1/2 hour for delivery? hey, i'm just trying to understand. i say 2-3 hours from parking on the lot to saying goodbye and that's if everything goes as planned.

Like I said previously, the last time I bought a car (June 2006) it was done via internet and the phone. So when I showed up all the paperwork was ready, the car was clean and ready to go so all I had to do was the test drive (about 30 minutes). By doing it the way I just described the car was ready to take home after the test drive and doing the paperwork that followed immediately after the test drive. Took all of 20 minutes to do the paperwork.

That’s what I’m trying to get across here; by doing it the way I described, everything is all lined up and ready to go when you get there. It really does save time. Try it if you don’t like it you can always go back to doing it the conventional way. I’ve done it both ways and I don’t plan to go back to the conventional method.

BTW, the 2 to 3 hours I was talking about was for the negotiating part of the deal only. If you are going to spend 2 to 3 hours just for the negotiating process, I can see where you can spend the better part of a day before you get the keys to drive it home, given all the things you brought up that will require time. Again, that’s why I won’t spend 2 to 3 hours negotiating, kinda takes the fun out of buying a car.

jmonroe

tidester

Enough money to buy your way into the VIP section of Tidesters Fan Club ...

Financing is available for qualified applicants but the finance charges are nonnegotiable ...! :shades:

tidester, host

jmonroe

...or buy that gold plated false tooth you've always wanted.

If you don't upset the salespeople by grinding for 2 to 3 hours, you won't need this.

You'll still have all the originals.

jmonroe

british_rover

We had SC Sports at our last one that were brand new but no Big Mark III ranges.

I have some video some where of a guy I know in Europe who took his brand new SC Range Rover to one of the big Land Rover meets.

He took it off road and everything. He swapped 19 inch wheels onto it and put on Goodyear MTRs.

Err on topic...

That lady with the XC90 called again. I must have the only white T6 XC90 with navigation on the east coast or something.

Too bad she wants to pay about a grand below auction value for it.

isellhondas

I gave up ties when I left the corporate world. Some guys here wear them but not me.

We have a "Country Club" dress code here and we don't abuse it.

andres3

The funny thing is it wasn't the Finance manager who tried to sell us on anything. The extra alarm system was sold and touted by the original salesman. It was the Finance guy who said they already lowered the price of the alarm installed to "cost."

Also, the sales manager got nasty with me when I accused them of lying about what the invoice price was. He said I was coming into the negotiation already calling or assuming they are liars, and that he would prove that was the invoice. He came back with an Edmunds print out, and sure enough... we were looking at invoice differently, which is where the disagreement came from. He included destination as the car's invoice.... whereas I looked at it as my price would be invoice + destination + TTL + $500 for their profit and them throwing in the promoted 2.9% 60mo. financing, and making the deal in under 2 hours (which of course didn't happen).

british_rover

Destination is always included in the invoice. It might be broken out as a line item on the invoice but at the bottom it is totaled up as the Invoice price.

Its not like we make any profit on a destination charge.

andres3

I agree, but instead of getting all nasty about it, he could of just said "you realize that my invoice price includes destination, don't you?"

What about Audi's conspiracy to claim Advertising and port doc fees?

This seems akin to me paying Vons for delivering my lettuce from the farm and cleaning it.

isellhondas

I wish the various internet sources wouldn't list destination seperatly. The shoppers always seem to forget about this not so little item.

lrguy44

Regional Advertising (RAG for us) is a cost paid by the dealer and is part of the invoice. It is charged on every car. I imagine port fees are the same.

andres3

I like it listed separately, so I know which manufacturers are trying to pull a fast one on the charge, such as SAAB, which is now OVER $750 for destination; give me a break!
I've also seen domestically built models have huge destination charges.... seems like most of this is profit for the manufacturer.

However... I do agree that destination should be part of the total invoice price... but not the invoice of the car itself... just TOTAL invoice, total being the key word.

lrguy44

Destination charges are the same for a model if the dealer is 5 miles or 2500 miles from the assembly plant. It is a dealer cost so what is the problem. The dealer makes nothing off of it

british_rover

If you start accusing me of lying I am going to get nasty too.

And what kind of conspiracy are you talking about?

Almost every make has ad fees that vary from region to region. Ours happens to be 300 dollars.

british_rover

Well considering how far most SAABs, 9-7Xs don't count as they are domestic made, have to travel to get to the use 750 dollars doesn't sound unreasonable. The majority of SAABs are still made in Sweden and that is a long, long trip.

I would hate to have you as a client though. I have never had anyone argue over destination charges. :confuse: :sick: