Internet vs. Traditional Car Buying

abraindrainer

Only an idiot would disclose private information on a public forum.

Besides, you seem to have a total grasp on the industry, so why would you ask me?

I did not ask you for the exact numbers (like others that have asked for your response emails), did I? Can you generalize from the data to which you are privy? Or are you simply here to imply that others are idiots?

bobst

No, I got the dollar discount.

I did ask for a couple accessories and I included their price in our OTD offer - mud flaps ($50) and two extra valet keys ($25 each).

That's interesting about the MD quotes being lower than the ones in VA. We bought our 85 Accord at Pohanka in Marlow Heights because I worked nearby at the Census Bureau at that time. I looked there when we wanted to buy an Accord in 95, but they lowballed me, so I decided to not go back when we bought Hondas in 97 and 99.

When our daughter wanted a Civic in 95, she offfered $13650 to a dealer in Rockville but they turned it down. We made the same offer at Tysons and they accepted.

All in all, I am amazed how cheap and well-made cars are these days. And I am glad to be sitting here at our computer after a tough home from Fair Oaks Mall in the snow.

cdnpinhead

a lot of this has to do with ego (duh), rather than driving a car.

Some people need to "win" against the dealership & others need to "win" compared to anyone who acquired (leased or purchased) the same vehicle anytime recently.

All I want is the car I want at what I consider a reasonable price. I do research to determine whether the thing is a hot property (I waited until '91 to buy my Miata), whether there are rebates, what the holdback is, and all the rest.

Having done that, I'll put together a simple spreadsheet that helps me calculate the variables -- local sales tax, licensing charge (constant, BTW), "doc" fee, etc. I'll hand a copy of my worksheet to the salesperson when I arrive, & let the fun begin, but it won't take long.

I have two approaches: 1) I've found a car I want in their inventory -- I'll take it off their hands right now, or 2) I'll order the car, and the dealer will have no floor charges -- the whole holdback is in play. If they like my offer, fine -- I've bought a car. If not, there's another dealer down the street, or across town, or in the next state.

The good news is that I've had my offer taken most of the time, way across town. The bad news is that I've probably left hundreds of dollars on the table -- not thousands, hundreds.

But, I've saved thousands, lots of time (I bought two cars in undr 40 minutes each) and much anguish over whether I've gotten the absolutely, positively best deal that month for that car, compared to anyone else.

I don't care about anyone else.

Those who post what they paid & ask (after the fact) whether it was a good deal are on the other end of this spectrum.

Here's my offer. Do you want to take it? No? Fine.

Pretty simple.

jmonroe

Great post.

If I didn't know better I'd say I wrote your post!! Therefore, would it bother you very much if I hacked into this board and attached my name to your post? I'd like some credit for the way I bought my last car in June 2006.

The only difference is that this time I get to enjoy that new-car smell ...

Very true, and because you (like me) keep your cars for a long time, factoring in the hit you have to pay for this doesn't have to be considered.

Again great post, (now I'll await your concurrence about the hacking).

jmonroe

shoparound

a quote's a quote, until you're in finance, remember you have to get past him or her too. the f&i stage can be the most challenging part of the transaction! for example, if i just spend 6 months shopping for my new car, and i finally "buy it" and go into finance, my guard is down, the heavy negociation is over and BANG! the f&i tells me i must buy the window itching, i must buy the alarm, the door edge guards, etc, etc, etc. you can't stuff a car through a computer, few dealerships fedex paperwork to buyers and do long distance deals like that either, you have to go to the dealer whether next door or in the next state. all i am saying is know your market and buy without regret. am i saying shop 5 metro markets in four states? no i'm not, i think it's ridiculous to even go down that road. the buyer just goes back to the lowest quote and says "see, i gotta better deal, will you beat it?" NO. "will you match it?". that's too crazy for me. i'll play the game at 3 stores and get 3 online quotes from further away (territories overlap), i'll buy the car i want based on price first and then how i am treated. actually, i prefer to give my local dealer the last shot because that's where i am going for service. if asked, i have to be able to say to them, "hey guys, i tried."

lrguy44

there are almost no home runs if those buyers are truly informed.

Not true - depends upon the vehicle and the dealership

Also - pet peeve - buyer asks for my best price then wants to start negotiations there. If someone asks for my best price that is what they get, nothing lower

exb0

If someone asks for my best price that is what they get, nothing lower.

That would be fine, if that was the case with everybody. Unfortunately with many stores if the buyer rejects their best price, the salesman says bring me your lowest quote and I will beat it. That is how buyers are conditioned to haggle even when they are presented with a good quote.

Also, these days it is almost impossible to determine what the bottom price is. I just got an email ad from a Honda dealer saying that they are selling all their Accords at $1500 under invoice. Edmunds published factory to dealer incentive is $750, where is the other $750 coming from?

british_rover

Volume bonus or maybe they are really selling them for a 750 dollar loss.

A lot of new car operations are run as a loss leader for the used car and service departments.

They just want to take in decent trades to make money in and exspand their service business.

shoparound

incentives to dealer (dealer cash) and/or incentives to customer (customer rebate) and other forms of incentives the factory has for the dealer. i believe most manufacturers work on the tier or step basis. of course dealers can estimate how many units they will sell, based upon past sold units, to reach the highest tier (get the most money back from manufacturer at end of month, quarter, year, program, whatever it is). That's why you'll see most dealers advertising $3000 off and other will tell you its $1500, the first dealer is pushing metal out the door to reach volume; the gross will come later or made up in trade-ins or in finance. You made another interesting comment that I understood to mean "how do you know if it's the best price?" my answer is you don't, another dealer will always do better by X amount. There comes a point to cut off negotiations and either buy the car or cut bait and move on if you're the seller. i believe there are many customers that had the best deal on the car they wanted yet walked out because they weren't informed. They have this "this is my number" that they magically pull out of a cracker-jack box. i also believe too many salespeople play manager and loose deals. that's why if a customer is fed up and wants to leave the store, why not stop by the managers office and ask him or her if you understand the deal or not? Heck, sales people are trained to touch with the desk before exiting a customer, a buyer could be assertive in a nice way and do the same thing to the desk (manager) too! How many deals have been SAVED at the manager's desk? Get the number and sleep on it. All legit dealers allow you to leave and come back... my gosh... it's not that hard to buy a car.

bobst

So why is that a "pet peeve"?

When I make my lowest offer, I don't get upset if the dealer tries to get me to increase it.

Likewise, when you give your lowest price, you should not be upset when a buyer tries to get you to lower it.

bobst

"All legit dealers allow you to leave and come back"

So what do the non-legit dealers do? Tie you up and put in a closet until you agree to buy their car?

jmonroe

So what do the non-legit dealers do? Tie you up and put in a closet until you agree to buy their car?

Are they allowed to do that; anywhere? :confuse:

jmonroe

abraindrainer

Bobst: Some of these guys want to "have the cake and eat it too!

It is pretty simple: every one has one set of rules but "I" have "MY OWN" rules that I apply to me because I am so "SPECIAL"!

bobst

"I have MY OWN rules that I apply to me because I am so SPECIAL"!

Ahh, so the truth comes out.

hansienna

Excellent policy. However, too many people do NOT understand the simple concept of "Best Price".
When people try to negotiate down, politely tell them that they have been given the BEST PRICE and to sleep on it. Why waste your time haggling? :shades:

lrguy44

Likewise, when you give your lowest price, you should not be upset when a buyer tries to get you to lower it

Because if you ask me for my best price I will give it to you. If you just want my starting price or a good price - ask me for that.

lrguy44

Why waste your time haggling?

I do enjoy a friendly, fun negotiation. But why pay games?

jipster

if you ask me for my best price I will give it to you.

Best price compared to what?

I asked for a salesmans best price on 2 separate occasions. Once on a new 2004 Honda Ody I was quoted invoice(24k) minus about 3k in mop n glow, mud guards and roof rack. It was their best price and I almost had a heart attack.

On a $19,900 used 2002 Toyota Sienna, we asked for the salesmans "best price"... and he came back with $19,400.

More often than not when you ask for the salespersons best price, you get a "starting price" or a "good price".

lrguy44

Best price compared to what?

I guess that is the difference between high end and low end cars

bobst

"if you ask me for my best price I will give it to you."

What if I offer one penny less than your 'best price'?

Would you take my offer?

cdnpinhead

That's that ego thing I referred to earlier, either on this or a similar Edmunds board.

A lot of this has little or nothing to do with acquiring a car in the simplest fashion.

Mine is bigger than yours. . .or not.

british_rover

No I would be insulted and would ask you to leave or get serious.

lrguy44

That is a real world response - in 15 years that has never happened - if it did it would be in fun and we have a car deal. There is a big difference when a non confrontational approach is taken by both parties.

kyfdx

..at how often automobile salespersons feel insulted.. :surprise:

Like water off a duck's back...

tidester

how often automobile salespersons feel insulted

It's a negotiating tactic. Apparently, it works since so many of them continue to use it.

tidester, host

abraindrainer

There are many people here who take things seriously and are honest... from both sides of aisle. However, if that is a given and there is also a high proportion of the OTHER :lemon: kind of people, how should a buyer/seller proceed? It does not say on anyone's forehead that s/he is "honest". :surprise: This is a real dilemma of playing this game: there are too many dishonest folks on both sides! :mad:

My solution: I give people a simple test/question and if they BS me or simply lie about some small bit of information, I hint to them that their answers were flawed. If there is no admission of a mistake, I stop believing everything they say! :lemon: That can be learned from applying multiple periods of prisoner's dilemma.

bobst

As I interpret your response, you would take my offer that is a penny less then your absolute lowest price.

I guess you absolute lowest price wasn't the lowest price you would accept, was it?

lrguy44

Like I said, your response was not even close to real world - who said I would give up the penny. I think Rover's response was right on

tidester

That can be learned from applying multiple periods of prisoner's dilemma.

Would that be an optimal solution or a stable solution or neither? (Game Theory")

tidester, host

blufz1

You have to grind them! Take up 3 hours of the sales person's time so that they feel they have a vested interest in selling you a car. Like it or not,that's just the way it works. Hope this helps.

shoparound

that's a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning; all dealers have a vested interest to sell the car whether you call in for a quick quote (call management if the salesperson blocks) or show up at 1pm saturday afternoon with the wife, kids and newborn. i'd play the dealer game for about half hour and then walk over and introduce myself to the manager. if it takes any longer than half hour at the salesperson's desk to get a binding quote, then the store's management has organizational structure problems (does that mean have a hissy fit? no, as long as it's the car you want, deal with it; it may take longer). either the dealer grinds on everybody from the salesperson down to the parts driver or they are working some kind of old school 4 square variation either way, my opinion is three hours in today's market is unnecessary; unless that is the total time from walking onto the lot untill driving off in the new car.

jb_turner

Interesting question..I would ventuire to say that a seasoned salesperson would refuse one penny less because that customer may be a grinder and will probably give a bad CSI score. If I were a salesperson I would not take one penny less because I gave my best price and I do not want to risk the CSI.

shoparound

hypothetically, you're worried more about a bad csi score than not delivery a car and taking a mini? if i were to take a mini i'd be focused on a fast delivery without being rude.

british_rover

In general Mini sales have the greatest chance of being bad CSI scores. It is not always true but if the person who was a mini sale was also a grinder then it is even more likely to be true.

I would rather not sell a car to someone who I think will be a bad CSI score. The reason being is that that grinder is only going to give me a 150 bucks as a commission and if they do give me a bad CSI it could potentially cost me thousands of dollars in bonus money.

Kind of a no brainer there as to what the best decision is.

mikefm58

I just bought a Tundra and one thing I emphasized to the sales guy when we were kind of stuck on a few hundred bucks apart is that so far you've got a perfect CSI coming, but I don't care to waste any more time with this deal. Let's write it up for what I just proposed and you've got a perfect CSI coming. That seemed to break the impasse. He thanked me for that and I drove home with a new truck for my price.

I agree with those in the biz here, sales folks really do care about the CSI and if they're not making much on the deal, then they won't take a chance on getting dinged.

lrguy44

And what Rover says is very true - the best CSIs come from people who paid more. The thinner the deal, the lower the CSI. Generalized, but true.

shoparound

i see, so the people who pay the least are the unhappiest while the people who pay the most are the happy campers, i got it.

british_rover

Well actually yes they usually are.

If you haven't been in the business then you wouldn't understand.

It is more the Uber-Grinders that give the worst CSI surveys. Just a skinny deal does not a poor CSI make but the people that grind for even dollar to that skinny deal are in general not happy.

These same people give poor service CSI scores too.

kyfdx

Grinders may be unhappy with the car buying process because grinding is hard work.. That would be reflected in the CSI scores..

I don't think that makes them unhappy with the price they paid, though.. or with the car itself.. I find getting a really low price makes me very happy..

lrguy44

First of all, see if other professional sales people on this forum agree. Secondly, I think the reason for that is people who pay more we have spent more time with, built trust, educated, etc. They saw the value in the product, dealership, and salesperson. Also, grinders tend to mistrust and condemn whether it is justified or not. As I have told customers, I won't judge you by my last customer if you won't judge me by your last dealership

shoparound

let's face it, they're saying sales people are not happy selling a car at a low price yet they are happy to sell the car at a high price, sounds normal to me. it's too obvious that the customer is picking up those vibes.

kyfdx

Everyone is happy if the customer pays more... Everyone is sad (including the customer) if the customer pays less?

I don't know.... doesn't seem right.. :surprise:

shoparound

maybe you're right, perhaps i too would be totally bummed out, sad and dejected, upset at the world and edmunds too if i shopped around and paid $100 over dealer cost... but that would be me, i guess. i'd have to listen to my friends badger me "you moron, you didn't pay enough, you paid too little, that's what you get for shopping around..."

lrguy44

Your statement is absolutely ridiculous. As I have said before, a good salesperson will have a combination of thin deals, medium deals, and large grosses. I know I get a rush at any deal, for when all is said and done a deal is a deal. Grinders, however, tend to see the value in themselves rather than others. They tend to not want to give any credit to a salesperson's knowledge or professionalism.

jmonroe

You have to grind them! Take up 3 hours of the sales person's time so that they feel they have a vested interest in selling you a car. Like it or not,that's just the way it works.

Us regular posters have heard this before on other boards from two other guys that some really think was the same guy. :confuse:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing you of this but here we go again. :sick:

jmonroe

andres3

What is the purpose of a salesman?

I find them to be utterly useless. You can do all your research online and in the lot or showroom looking over and driving the car. I've found all the salesman I've dealt with to be powerless puppets that don't really have any say or authority to make a deal anyway.

british_rover

You must be buying lowline cars then.

Step up your game and see what it is like in the $50,000 plus arena.

andres3

Interesting thought and idea. I don't know about lowline, or even midline... but 50K plus area is VERY HIGH line. I will have to step up my game for that, as will probably over 90% of Americans. If a 25K and 30K car isn't a high line car, then something is wrong with manufacturer's pricing! Although, I'd concede under 30K is now midline due to inflation.

But still, I've only dealt with one salesman that wasn't trumped by the sales manager; though he did break his original promise to deliver a car we wanted within 2 hours of our saying yes to his offer price.

boomchek

Not every car buyer is internet saavy, or has the product knowledge, or reads car magazines every week. That's what we are for, to give them info about the cars.

As to do the deal, yes, the manager has the ultimate say in the price, whether internet or not.

Sounds like you have ran into some bad apples out there.

boomchek

So how long did it take to deliver your car?