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The reason German cars create black dust is because they use more Carbon fillers (organic compounds) and less metallic binders, they are softer pads that are easier on the disks, they grab better specially when wet, they have better thermal characteristics for stopping at high speeds smoothly with less fade, you have to realize German cars are designed for the Autobahn as their home market, the negative side is the black dust settling on the rims but is a small price to pay for the ability to stop surely at high speeds.
All German manufacturers have heard about it and they have tested different compounds but for commercial large volume where cost is a factor the high carbon pads offer the best compromise so far.
I agree that German cars use specific pads which lead to greater accumulation of brake dust. I still think they could design around this by installing brake sheilds, using a different wheel design or use some of the newer high performance low dust brakes. I don't necessarily agree about the autobahn though...I have seen the same issue come up with Ford Taurus's.
For me and I am sure others it is a major drawback when considering the purchase of a car...although deep down I know that it has nothing to do with value, quality and perfomance and can easily be remedied with better/different pads.
I haven't had a noise issue with any other pads, dustless pads don't always mean more noise.
Here are a few interesting links for more than you ever wanted to know about brakes and dust. VW OEM parts are "pagid" pads at least from the link below.
You may not agree with the Autobahn issue but nevertheless the fact remains, Germany is the only country in the world that has a highway system where in some parts there are no speed limits for cars, vehicles can reach speeds over 140mph, that is very fast, while race cars reach higher speeds they are also lighter, but in the Autobahn anyone with for instance an S class or a 7series BMW reaches those speeds, unlike a race car those cars weigh over 4000lbs not counting a load of up to 5 passengers, any emergency can come up, a normal driver has to have at his disposal powerful brakes that can scrub off speed safely and surely, any German manufacturer selling vehicles for his home market has to take the Autobahn into account and brakes to match. And they have to do it time after time not routinely.
In the links you provided nothing contradicts what I said, the use in great proportion of organic fillers (in one of your links they interpret organic as living, the correct definition is any non metallic compound containing Carbon). For instance gasoline is an organic compound because it contains carbon.
Even in the era of Asbestos high performance brakes had a high Carbon content, mainly aviation, if you ever go to a road race and make it to the pit areas (most let you be right behind the mechanics and watch and when not busy they will answer your questions) you will notice that those brakes have an even higher carbon content, at dark you can see those brakes glow orange in the curves but seconds later they are ready again.
The newest brakes from Germany are Ceramics but they are very expensive you will find those in cars like Porsche GT2 or Carrera GT or Mercedes SLR.
As far as the use of shields it sounds like a simple solution but the problem is that they will interfere with heat dissipation.
I have three German cars and they all do that, the Mercedes is probably the worst but I live with it.
About the Ford Taurus, Ford of Germany had a lot to do with the design.
I understand about the brake pads in the design and agree with a lot of what you said. I am trying to understand the issue more. The links were only meant to be informative.
I can disagree and discuss (well post back and forth) without it having to be an emotional issue.
OK...So I guess the Touareg's wheels will get black faster than some competing models. Interestingly the 3 cayenne's that are in my office lot don't seem to be as adversely effected, although I have a very small sample size.
There have been some posts suggesting that the vehicle is over-priced. I haven't driven one, but I did read the promotional brochure cover-to-cover. I think it that the number of outstanding features probably justifies the price. I read on a web site that the A/C automatically engages re-circulate mode when you shift into reverse, so it won't bring any exhaust fumes into the car, same when you put on the windshield washers. Obsessive German engineering at its finest!
That's not to say that a little discount from MSRP isn't always appreciated.......
I apologize if I sounded belligerent but believe me it is not or was not the case nor did I take offense, I do come here to Edmund’s mostly to relax and shoot the breeze for a moment or two, you are and you were very polite.
I am too old to get too emotional, if my wife decides to leave me I probably shrug my shoulders much less about a car chat, I do get sarcastic with some individuals around here when they become painful but is very rare.
Talking about cars back and forth is fine with me that’s why I am here and if you have an opposing view I welcome and we will try to set the record straight if we can, that is the fun part in my opinion anyway.
Back to topic, you were saying that the Touareg’s wheels will get black faster than some competing models, I say if we follow the German trend they should although I have to say that VAG’s are not that bad, I have a Porsche and I noticed the same thing when compared to my Mercedes but then it is known that Mercedes and BMW use the softer higher carbon pads.
Another angle to think about, the Touareg is a brand new vehicle for 2003 just recently developed, maybe they did think about the black dust issue or thought it was and did something to mitigate it.
FWIW, the soft brake pads are in a number of European-branded vehicles, not just the German ones. My Saab 9-3 has the same general class of soft brake pads (then again, some components of the vehicle are built in Germany in Opel plants).
The brake dust on my car is a nuisance, as it may be to Touareg owners. But I must say the 9-3's (and the Touareg's) braking performance (both stopping distance under all weather conditions, and braking feel/confidence) is really excellent. Obviously I don't have empirical proof that the soft brake pads are largely or even partially responsible for this in my vehicle, but I suspect they are.
So I think there is a trade-off here. If one is into getting chrome wheels and having them look good all the time, the brake dust may be a hassle.
A pre-prod V8 Touareg won the braking distance test in Car & Driver's SUV roundup a while ago, going from 70-0 in 170 feet. This despite the fact that it's far heavier than, say, an Acura MDX, which took a whopping 200 feet to stop. Obviously some of this is partly a function of the brakes themselves and the tires on the vehicles (I suspect the Cross Terrains on the Acura aren't the best for braking). But I think the brake pads have something to do with it too.
Pity that C&D didn't do a wet-braking test, that's where the soft brake pads can really shine.
Maybe it's mentioned before (didn't go back too far) but pretty sure they are - Brembo brakes are much sought after for serious applications and can be found on top performance autos. Fronts are six piston - which again is unheard of in most passenger applications. I have to clean my wheels every week just to stay on top of the black, oily dust, but it will be ok as long as it doesn't build up. My previous German cars and even a Volvo had this problem too.
Someone asked if the T-reg is overpriced - I don't see how. There is nothing near its price that can touch it (BMW X5, Volvo XC 90). JMHO
Anyone have any idea why the Touareg weighs so much more than SUV's with similar off-road cred?
I suppose I understand why it's heavier than car-based station-wagon substitutes like the
RX 330 - 4065 lbs MDX - 4510 lbs
And maybe why it weighs more than off-road capable car-based SUVs like the
X5 (3.0) - 4533 lbs
But why, oh why, does it weigh so much more than truck based SUVs that are equally (or more) capable off-road like the
4Runner - 4290 lbs GX 470 - 4740 lbs
Why is the Touareg (V8) a 5300 lbs porker?
There seems to be a big 0-30/0-60 performance hit which leaves the V6 version of the Touareg far, far behind in urban driving as compared to the V6 4Runner, V6 RX 330, V6 MDX and V6 X5(and let's face it, even hard-core off-roaders spend more time on pavement than off it). The extra 600 to 1000 lbs also seem to hit MPG.
Anyone know what the excess weight is and whether, as VW gains experience building SUVs, future versions of the Touareg may be slimmed down?
I have gone through almost all of these messages and wanted to know 2 things:
1) are the models shipping currently all fine and dandy - or do they still have all of these issues?
2) In general what is a good list of issues everyone has heard or experienced with the Touareg
Thanks!
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Also its funny that someone said that the black dust on the rims is poor hygiene. For those of us who wash our own cars... you realize it just builds up no matter the brand. I have a Passat and a Tahoe. Both of them collect dirt. I just think... wow thats dirty... and them clean it.
Thanks for the poll. That helped identify the issues I was wondering about.
I will have to say that VW has the best dealerships. You can be in the worst part of town at a vw dealership but the classiness and attitude is the same as if you were in an affluent neighborhood.
As I stated in an earlier post I have a passat and a Tahoe. In 2 years I have had not one issue with the Passat. With the tahoe I got reamed on my lease, have spent 3000 on breaks in the past 4 years, have paid outside of warranty close to 4000 on dangerous problems, etc. Not one letter was returned clearing up issues nor was I able to give the car back due to the "lemon law". When i compare the two cars "experiences" in totlaI would have to say vw rules. I had a similar experience with Cadiallc before the Tahoe so I am either assuming that american cars are down the drain or no other car company pretends tocare about you more than vw. I say pretend because no matter what all car companies wind up leaving bad taste for some reason or another.
>Anyone know what the excess weight is and whether, as VW gains experience building SUVs, future versions of the Touareg may be slimmed down?
>I asked myself the same question, about the Touareg's weight given some full size SUVs weigh about the same
The reason is simple, you provided a list of vehicles and their weight, if you look into more closely you will notice that the Touareg can take a payload of 1250lbs same as the closest competitor the GX470 but the Treg will tow 7700lbs as compared to 6500lbs for the GX70 that is 1200lbs of more towing weight, that is 15% more capacity, in order for the towed weight not to overwhelm the pulling vehicle it has to be stronger structurally, the Treg has a 6spd transmission that is heavier, has to have stronger brakes plus the most important reason is that the Treg was built to accommodate engines from a V6 to the V10 Diesel that puts out 560ft/lbs of torque, that engine in a regular flimsy vehicle will twist everything from the transmission to the rear ends to the frame, the way I look at it we should be happy to have an extra strong vehicle.
Second I buy the argument that most of America does not go offroading but a good portion of SUV’s and truck owner do pull something weather is a boat or a camping trailer or a utility trailer with anything on it or a horse trailer, that is the utility aspect of the Treg, I am happy that is how the vehicles has been conceived, I could pull a heavy camping trailer and go to the mountains and get on a trail and camp out on the wilderness off the beaten path. Better to have and no need than need and not have.
The market offers a lot of SUV’s, if someone wants economy only he should buy a car based SUV, although I never understood the point of buying an SUV for just seating higher, for me the useful aspects of it is what counts, that is what the U stands for.
New issue compares Touareg with other 300HP SUV's and drops from #1 (January 2003) to #4 (out of 4).
Now in fairness, the emphasis on performance and sport was quite high; and, as noted the poor Touareg is saddled with "only" 310HP which for purposes of this test gave it the poorest power to weight ratio.
BTW the Cadillac "station wagon" was #1, followed closely (1 point down) by the Cayanne (despite its bloated price, due to the Porsche name plate so says C/D) and #3 was the Infinity FX45 which they said had the "worst ride."
Damned with faint praise is my take on it, but there is a part of me that secretly says "go Cadillac." And since they called the Caddy a "station wagon" I must protest the omission of the Audi allroad 4.2 from this comparo.
All the "cars" were at least $53K+ and change, the Touareg was the least expensive, the Porsche the most.
The allroad at $54K would have been right at home.
In fairness, the top 3 vehicles in this test were all rated very close to each other, with the FX45 finishing just one point (184 vs 185) behind the Porsche and just 5 behind the SRX (189) - this is less than a 3% difference. Of the cars tested they also said the FX "rates as something of a bargain" in this class, and this was considering the as-tested price of $52,670. I paid just $44,304 for mine, a "Premium Pkg" version that has the same performance as the "Tech Pkg" versiion, but without a few expensive options (that I didn't think were worth paying $7,600 extra for).
The Touareg's weight of 5612 lbs - 1120 lbs more than the FX - probably knocked down its total point score (171) more than anything else, as it's just too heavy to compete well in the performance tests (0-60 in 7.5 secs vs 6.4 for the FX, despite having just 5 less HP). But in fairness, considering its awesome off-road capability - up to 11.8 inches of ground clearance and 7700 lb towing capacity - its performance is pretty amazing, and it has the nicest interior of this group, IMO.
It just all depends what features are most important to you, as all of these models are fine choices - this has gotten to be a very competitive segment.
What are the pros and cons of this car. Do you think this car is a great family car, is it worth the big $$$???? I can not decide which car is right for me, I do not want to feel like my hand is in the cookie jar
a great Family ride? Well, if you have an active lifestyle it is perfect...Offroad capabilities are superb, and well mannered on pavement, and if a towing capability is crucial; you have that as well...up to 7700#s. I also predict fantastic results in safety tests.
If, on the other hand, none of the above apply, there are plenty of choices for more and for less money.
But, if you are seeking a great multi-purpose family automobile with a great Warranty; the Touareg is for you...
I think the points made above are dead-accurate. The Touareg is more of the Swiss Army Knife of SUV's in that it has fantastic off-road capabilities.
That all four vehicles were close says, "there's not a loser in the bunch" (in the comparo). However, it is important to note that C&D loves quickness and with the power to weight ratio of this group, the Touareg was simply outgunned.
My unprovable guess is that the VW would have scored 2nd or 3rd place with a few tenths of a second shaved off of its 0 to whatever times.
Moreover, I think the Porsche would have scored #1 had it a lower MSRP (the article said the Porsche name saddled the Cayenne with a $15,000 penalty).
Those considering the Touareg should not feel they are getting the loser of the bunch, unless of course 0 - 60 times are your first consideration.
I'm looking forward to see what the dedicated SUV/off-road magazines have to say. They put a much higher priority on off-road prowess than on-road prowess.
One of them (4Wheel & Off Road?) just tested a new Cayenne. I think it was the turbo, but am not sure. They loved it on road, in fact they said it had the best tranny they've ever tested.
They were less enthused, however, with its off-road abilities. These magazines ALWAYS put a top priority on axle articulation, and that's often the downfall if IFS/IRS setups.
I don't agree with them. My feeling is, if the vehicle made it through -- even with 1 wheel off the ground, that's all that matters; even if it relied on a overly complex & so-called trick 4WD system.
I would not get agitated over the articulation issue. Nobody knows better than airplane designers about multiple role airplanes, a dedicated fighter plane is not going to excel as a bomber or a race car as commuter and so on, the best that can be done is a good compromise if they can’t comprehend that so be it.
I have a Mercedes Unimog and an ML and there could be no more contrast in the two if they were made by two different manufacturers, my 406 is so dedicated to off the road work that it can not travel on the interstate because is slow, heavy and has too many gears churning, is a manual 20 speed and even being manual the transmission will get hot and boil the heavy oil at 55mph if sustained for long periods of time, and if you can make it past 60 let’s say the ride is going to be exciting. The bottom line it has to be trailered, and the ML off course can not go and do what the Unimog will do.
Extreme articulation requires good body to axle clearance and long stretchy springs but you are riding like on a water bed, I heard of this guy going along the side of a hill on a highly modified Jeep while everybody made it his flipped over because the springs compressed on one side and stretched on the other, leaned pass the center of gravity and rolled over, they were going at less than 10mph.
I f your Touareg excelled off road but was a porker on the road you would be terribly upset because your are going to spend 99% of the time on the highway.
Unless you really like to get to know the service dept. personnel. I too am impressed by all the great things about the Touareg and had by heart set on getting one until I contacted my cousin who works at the local VW dealer as a mechanic. I was told that EVERY Touareg sold there has been returned for warranty repair. Some already had multiple problems. Most were for electrical problems and some were mechanical in addition. Most disturbing is that some problems were not even able to be fixed by the trained "Torareg Certified" mechanic due to complexity. He strongly advised against buying the Touareg anytime soon unless you don't mind bringing it in for repairs (no loaners given). If Touareg is going to be your only vehicle think long and hard before buying.
I believe the previous post was written or at least intended to be 100% accurate and truthful. I don't know if it was very helpful, but I respect "our" rights to write our opinions.
I think, or better said, I hope someone will write the other side of the story -- hopefully NOT every single Touareg is a dud, or has issues, as the post suggests.
And, suggesting that we en masse strike the Touareg from our shopping lists, is, based on what I have read here and other places a tad extreme.
The post is also alarmist and unrealistic. What first-year car hasn't had warranty work and didn't take time for the manufacturer, dealers and mechanics to get up on the learning curve? Buyers of new models take a calculated risk that problems will be relatively minor and in return get the latest in design and technology. I'm just now seeing these cars on the streets, so let's not jump to conclusions before they have a chance to prove themselves. For example, look at the brake, turbo and electrical problems the Volvo XC90 had early on. It took time to identify the problems and work out fixes. The Touareg experience will probably be similar. After the initial "grace" period, a lot will depend on how well VW and the dealers handle quality problems and prompt repairs. I haven't seen an alarming number of negative posts as yet.
While the above post may be a tad alarmist, there are some valid points in there.
It is a virtually all new vehicle from the ground up isn't it? It has a ton (or two) of very new and highly sophisticated technology built deep into the vehicle and it's sub-systems.
I don't know how anyone could possibly expect every VW dealer's service department to be up to speed on everything on a completely brand new vehicle like the Touareg nor will everything function perfectly the first year out.
Just be aware that some issues will "probably" surface and that they "probably" won't be easy to fix (but what new vehicle is these days).
Some of these new vehicle risks are being reduced by other manufacturers as they share major components from one platform to a new one (Nissan for example) but there are always still bugs to be worked out, regardless of manufacturer.
To be on the cutting edge like VW is with the Touareg has inherent risks (and rewards when everything works as designed).
The owner of the company that rents space from me has several cars, one is a new BMW 7 series (last year's, the first year of the new body style).
He was looking at my allroad and mentioned that the computer interface in his Bimmer has never worked perfectly and can still be made to fail. He loves most other aspects of the car, but recently test drove a new allroad and a new A8L -- he claims the Audi MMI is much more intuitive and easy to use quickly.
I cannot comment -- but this tracks well with what I have read.
I do not think we should stop commenting on the issues that are out there about our vehicles, but I still cannot imagine that every Touareg has issues of such gravity that we should in a public forum condemn them all.
I just got a call from Audi customers relations -- they said they noted my car had several returns to the dealership for my "mystery" power door-locks.
The Audi manual claims that the allroad can be programmed to automatically lock the doors at 20kph and unlock them when the key is removed.
My door locks will do just that for several weeks, then they will quit then they will start up again for no reason -- my wife's 03TT is the same way.
Every Audi I have had since 1995 has been programmed to perform this function and once it was programmed it stuck! The 03's have a different computer and god knows why they seem to have a mind of their own.
Audi spent 20 minutes on the phone with me attempting to "make me happy." I told them, "this is a minor minor minor annoyance" I love the car, will buy another and it is my 25th Audi product since 1978 -- this is a non-issue in other words.
My point is VWoA (and that is who the call came from) was attempting to resolve my issue with something that is so far down the problem pole, I would never have brought it up.
This company is doing the right things; the push upmarket that is happening with VW will allow VW owners to enjoy much the same treatment. These are great cars (overall) and getting better.
I still maintain that VW and Audi buyers have higher expectations than many other car buyers and that they are expecting more from the whole experience. Cars are getting more complicated every day -- I expect things that get more complicated may have more opportunities for improvement.
Here is another interesting fact:
More than one-fourth (28%) of those vehicle shoppers who leave a dealership without making a purchase state that the main reason they didn’t purchase from that dealership was because they didn’t like the way the dealer treated them (as opposed to not liking the vehicle itself or believing they could get a lower price somewhere else).
Approximately one-half of these shoppers go on to purchase an entirely different brand rather than seek out another same-make dealer.
Source: J.D. Power and Associates 2003 Sales Satisfaction Index (SSI) StudySM
Extrapolate to your experiences and furthermore extrapolate to the service dept.
Now, on this issue, VW has a long way to go -- but I for one am rooting for them and think they'll get there.
My sister's New Beetle hasn't been stellar and it's not as much fun to drive as my old Bugs and Bus were. But I have high hopes for the Microbus.
It does sound like VW has been making good progress with both assembly and the dealer experience the last year or so. One friend of mine is really enjoying his new Passat.
With interest, I have followed most of your comments about the Touareg. However, I noticed that the torque curve on the 6 cylinder dips between 3000 and 5500rpm from 225pf. to approx.200pf. That is the range you most likely need the power for pulling your stuff.. Speaking of the V8, it has a super narrow torque curve "3400 to 4300"rpm at best with a peak of 302pf. After 4300rpm the torque drops from 302pf. to aprox. 245pf @ 185 hp. If you calculate the horsepower to weight ratio on both engines, you will understand the lack of performance in the lower "RPM" range regardless of the 6 speed automatic. In my opinion, you can get a better tow vehicle for pulling your boat or trailer than the Touareg. However having pointed out all this, the overall fit and finish is superb. Horst S.
I noticed that the torque curve on the 6 cylinder dips between 3000 and 5500rpm from 225pf. to approx.200pf.
I don't know where you got your numbers from, and I don't quite understand all of them, but the above sounds pretty flat to me. A drop of only 11% in torque, but an increase of 63% in power in that range looks good to me. Note that most people would want the torque to be strong down low (i.e., below 3000rpm) for this vehicle.
I don’t have all the engine specs but looking here at Edmund’s the few specs I retrieved the following data.
Tahoe. V8 5.3 liter engine. Max torque 330ft/lbs at 4000 RPM Towing 7800lbs.
Touareg V8 4.2 liter engine Max torque 302ft/lbs at 3000 RPM Towing 7700lbs.
The Tahoe despite having a 1.1 liter bigger engine develops only 28ft/lbs of torque more that the Treg, but the very one thing you are striking is the fact that the VW achieves peak torque at 1000rpms LESS than the Tahoe, which is a good thing, we don’t want to rev up the engine to achieve peak torque.
And transmission is 1/2 when pulling or racing or cruising, that 6 speed can match better engine to load requirements than a 4 or 5 spd could.
I asked my local service rep about the quirks they've seen from the T-Reg, and she mentioned:
* Sensors for heigh adjustments tended to fail * Some odd electrical gremlins
What is it with VW and electricals?! Maybe they ought to hire some electrical engineers, or something!
All kidding aside, I wouldn't wait a year for VW to sort out the bugs on the Touareg. Given their past track record, they usually get most of the bugs ironed out by year 5 to 7 (look at the Coil and window problems!), compared to Honda and Toyota who get it done right by year 2.
Wow! That was an uncharacteristically brutal post from someone like you, but understandable considering how you make a living selling VWs.
Actually, my family does own a VW product, and we are pretty happy with that car. So happy in fact, that I've been tracking the progress of the Touareg when it is time for me to get a replacement car.
The Touareg's interior design is PHENOMENAL! The VW engineers have literally thought of everything, and I can certainly say it is an impressive car. However, having been burned by the previous Jetta purchase, I take a more cautious and critical eye on VW quality.
The facts stand that it did take VW over five years to correct a simple window problem on their Beetles/Golfs/Jettas. And roughly three years for the coil pack problems, and various electrical gremlins on all their models.
VW just doesn't get around to fixing the bugs as soon as other car companies do - which really drags them down. I can honestly say, that many of our Jetta driving friends will not make another VW purchase because of these problems - which is really sad when they could be driving a reliable and refined Passat.
My point was simple. The Touareg is a great car. All first year production cars will have teething problems, maybe to the second or third year - that's how it is with cars, but by what I have seen and experienced with VW products, that teething problem tends to be a lot longer (3-5 years), and sometimes really doesn't get addressed at all.
Yes, the Odyssey is my "dream car" for the moment, but I'd love to be able to drive a Touareg one of these years. And no, I am not as ignorant on VW products as you might mistaken me to be. Keep up your great informative posts, but please don't assume that every cross poster is also a mud-slinger.
issues have not been an issue at our store...But then again, we are one of the few stores...200 out of 600+ that will be carrying the Phaeton...
The Coil Pack and window regulator issues were addressed in a common sense manner...Not all of the Coil Packs are bad, nor are all the window regulators...These problems were random; with no set format...I have customers that have experienced neither...Additionally, you are making broad, brush stroke statements with very limited information...
It is important to remember that most Service issues are Dealership based...some are just better than others. And, no one business is perfect 100% of the time...
I try to avoid "broad generalizations" where I can. I suspect that some of the problems I listed are maybe tied to certain "regions" of the country. For example, window failures in the state of Arizona are really high over here for all non-Passat models. Every Jetta owner we know of have experienced this problem since the 1996 model - and our VW service department confirmed this to be a rampant problem till recently. These problems were usually limited to regulator and window motor problems.
We've never known anyone with coil-pack problems, but our service rep has also told us about them till recently too.
The service department we go to is pretty capable, and honest - which is why we continue to give them our business. I appreciate their input greatly because they see all of the problems for each model, and tell me what they are when I ask for it - rather than sugar-coat the truth and say that all the models are "great."
Incidentally, despite the few problems they have seen with regards to the height adjustment sensors, the most common problem they have seen with the Touareg is owner ignorance - they are not up to speed with the features of the Touareg, so a lot of the visits are pretty much a "Read the Manual" fix.
I stand by my assesment of VW taking 3-5 years to address what you call "Common Sense" matters. It is an assesment I have seen, experienced, and confirmed as an actual VW owner. I can only hope that VW has improved on this record, as it will only help them sell their cars better.
Ditto Texas, apparently. They don't mention the power windows, but it'd be nice to see VW step up to the plate on these, esp. so since my sister's New Beetle is plagued by the same problem. It's out of warranty and the VW dealer doesn't want to fix it any more - suggestions VWguild?
VWoA was accomodating with our Jetta window problems. They covered the cost of the repairs past the two year warranty - till year five, then they started pro-rating the repair costs.
The trick is to continue calling VWoA everytime it happens, so they have a track record of this problem. Once they see the pattern, they tend to work with you on it.
VWoA's handling of our Jetta's window problems was one of the major factors why we chose the Passat over the Accord. It isn't everyday you see a company doing the right thing.
The current Road and Track magazine has a test report of the $50,000 Touareg side by side with a $94,000 Cayanne. The Touareg was very well received and did not need to feel that it was outgunned -- even though the Porsche had the high output Turbo engine.
All in all a very encouraging review -- the Touareg, while hardly "inexpensive" still seems to be written about in terms that generally make it appear to be a downright bargain (and this one had the pricey air suspension).
Anyway, after the virtual drubbing the T-reg got in the current Car and Driver it was refreshing to see a report favorable to the Touareg.
Indeed it even had some words about the Phaeton that, superficially at least, were positive.
Ok...here is a report from an actual Touareg owner. I bought a V-6 the end of August, and have put a few thousand miles on it over a wide assortment of driving conditions. Maybe too soon to say, and I could be jinxing myself, but I have experienced zero problems. As someone else mentioned, the biggest thing that you need to do is make sure you read the manual if there are questions. I know that the concept of reading a manual is an anathema to most, but it actually does come in handy sometimes. In any event, the car has been pure joy to drive. It is a responsive, well handling car. The one thing I will say is that with the V-6, the transmission can be a little busy at times, particularly up grades; it's better to move over into tiptronic (more fun too...). I had tested the V-8, and couldn't justify it, at least for my requirements. This would be about the only case where it might make a difference, at least to me. Just wasn't worth it. The V-6 really moves in the Sport setting, and you can find yourself zooming around (having fun) if you're not careful. Fit and finish are fine, and no problems have shown (yet). My wife likes the ride, and says it is a big improvement over the Land Cruiser that the Touareg replaced! It is important to understand what the car does under various conditions, and how it reacts (and what the relevant noises are). I'm thrilled (so far) with the car. The buying experience, on the other hand, was a totally different story..........
Comments
All German manufacturers have heard about it and they have tested different compounds but for commercial large volume where cost is a factor the high carbon pads offer the best compromise so far.
For me and I am sure others it is a major drawback when considering the purchase of a car...although deep down I know that it has nothing to do with value, quality and perfomance and can easily be remedied with better/different pads.
I haven't had a noise issue with any other pads, dustless pads don't always mean more noise.
Here are a few interesting links for more than you ever wanted to know about brakes and dust. VW OEM parts are "pagid" pads at least from the link below.
http://www.epsparts.com/category/chassisnumbertable/
http://www.ebcbrakesuk.com/QandA.html
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brakes.jsp?make=EBC&model=Gree- - nstuff+brake+pads
In the links you provided nothing contradicts what I said, the use in great proportion of organic fillers (in one of your links they interpret organic as living, the correct definition is any non metallic compound containing Carbon). For instance gasoline is an organic compound because it contains carbon.
Even in the era of Asbestos high performance brakes had a high Carbon content, mainly aviation, if you ever go to a road race and make it to the pit areas (most let you be right behind the mechanics and watch and when not busy they will answer your questions) you will notice that those brakes have an even higher carbon content, at dark you can see those brakes glow orange in the curves but seconds later they are ready again.
The newest brakes from Germany are Ceramics but they are very expensive you will find those in cars like Porsche GT2 or Carrera GT or Mercedes SLR.
As far as the use of shields it sounds like a simple solution but the problem is that they will interfere with heat dissipation.
I have three German cars and they all do that, the Mercedes is probably the worst but I live with it.
About the Ford Taurus, Ford of Germany had a lot to do with the design.
My 2 cts.
I understand about the brake pads in the design and agree with a lot of what you said. I am trying to understand the issue more. The links were only meant to be informative.
I can disagree and discuss (well post back and forth) without it having to be an emotional issue.
OK...So I guess the Touareg's wheels will get black faster than some competing models. Interestingly the 3 cayenne's that are in my office lot don't seem to be as adversely effected, although I have a very small sample size.
That's not to say that a little discount from MSRP isn't always appreciated.......
I apologize if I sounded belligerent but believe me it is not or was not the case nor did I take offense, I do come here to Edmund’s mostly to relax and shoot the breeze for a moment or two, you are and you were very polite.
I am too old to get too emotional, if my wife decides to leave me I probably shrug my shoulders much less about a car chat, I do get sarcastic with some individuals around here when they become painful but is very rare.
Talking about cars back and forth is fine with me that’s why I am here and if you have an opposing view I welcome and we will try to set the record straight if we can, that is the fun part in my opinion anyway.
Back to topic, you were saying that the Touareg’s wheels will get black faster than some competing models, I say if we follow the German trend they should although I have to say that VAG’s are not that bad, I have a Porsche and I noticed the same thing when compared to my Mercedes but then it is known that Mercedes and BMW use the softer higher carbon pads.
Another angle to think about, the Touareg is a brand new vehicle for 2003 just recently developed, maybe they did think about the black dust issue or thought it was and did something to mitigate it.
Regards
The brake dust on my car is a nuisance, as it may be to Touareg owners. But I must say the 9-3's (and the Touareg's) braking performance (both stopping distance under all weather conditions, and braking feel/confidence) is really excellent. Obviously I don't have empirical proof that the soft brake pads are largely or even partially responsible for this in my vehicle, but I suspect they are.
So I think there is a trade-off here. If one is into getting chrome wheels and having them look good all the time, the brake dust may be a hassle.
A pre-prod V8 Touareg won the braking distance test in Car & Driver's SUV roundup a while ago, going from 70-0 in 170 feet. This despite the fact that it's far heavier than, say, an Acura MDX, which took a whopping 200 feet to stop. Obviously some of this is partly a function of the brakes themselves and the tires on the vehicles (I suspect the Cross Terrains on the Acura aren't the best for braking). But I think the brake pads have something to do with it too.
Pity that C&D didn't do a wet-braking test, that's where the soft brake pads can really shine.
I have to clean my wheels every week just to stay on top of the black, oily dust, but it will be ok as long as it doesn't build up. My previous German cars and even a Volvo had this problem too.
Someone asked if the T-reg is overpriced - I don't see how. There is nothing near its price that can touch it (BMW X5, Volvo XC 90). JMHO
I have a 450 car VW inventory...28 V6 Touaregs &
4 V8s...one of which I got on a trade for a seriously well optioned V6...
A day does not go by when I do not take a custom order for a V8...Current ETA, January 10th with a build during week #46...
http://www.subdriven.com/artman/publish/article_82.shtml
Bob
I suppose I understand why it's heavier than car-based station-wagon substitutes like the
RX 330 - 4065 lbs
MDX - 4510 lbs
And maybe why it weighs more than off-road capable car-based SUVs like the
X5 (3.0) - 4533 lbs
But why, oh why, does it weigh so much more than truck based SUVs that are equally (or more) capable off-road like the
4Runner - 4290 lbs
GX 470 - 4740 lbs
Why is the Touareg (V8) a 5300 lbs porker?
There seems to be a big 0-30/0-60 performance hit which leaves the V6 version of the Touareg far, far behind in urban driving as compared to the V6 4Runner, V6 RX 330, V6 MDX and V6 X5(and let's face it, even hard-core off-roaders spend more time on pavement than off it). The extra 600 to 1000 lbs also seem to hit MPG.
Anyone know what the excess weight is and whether, as VW gains experience building SUVs, future versions of the Touareg may be slimmed down?
SUVs weigh about the same
I have gone through almost all of these messages and wanted to know 2 things:
1) are the models shipping currently all fine and dandy - or do they still have all of these issues?
2) In general what is a good list of issues everyone has heard or experienced with the Touareg
Thanks!
----------------------------
Also its funny that someone said that the black dust on the rims is poor hygiene. For those of us who wash our own cars... you realize it just builds up no matter the brand. I have a Passat and a Tahoe. Both of them collect dirt. I just think... wow thats dirty... and them clean it.
That, and lingering concerns about VW's reliability, would have me wait a year or so before purchasing. The one I test drove, the radio didn't work...
Bob
I will have to say that VW has the best dealerships. You can be in the worst part of town at a vw dealership but the classiness and attitude is the same as if you were in an affluent neighborhood.
As I stated in an earlier post I have a passat and a Tahoe. In 2 years I have had not one issue with the Passat. With the tahoe I got reamed on my lease, have spent 3000 on breaks in the past 4 years, have paid outside of warranty close to 4000 on dangerous problems, etc. Not one letter was returned clearing up issues nor was I able to give the car back due to the "lemon law". When i compare the two cars "experiences" in totlaI would have to say vw rules. I had a similar experience with Cadiallc before the Tahoe so I am either assuming that american cars are down the drain or no other car company pretends tocare about you more than vw. I say pretend because no matter what all car companies wind up leaving bad taste for some reason or another.
>I asked myself the same question, about the Touareg's weight given some full size
SUVs weigh about the same
The reason is simple, you provided a list of vehicles and their weight, if you look into more closely you will notice that the Touareg can take a payload of 1250lbs same as the closest competitor the GX470 but the Treg will tow 7700lbs as compared to 6500lbs for the GX70 that is 1200lbs of more towing weight, that is 15% more capacity, in order for the towed weight not to overwhelm the pulling vehicle it has to be stronger structurally, the Treg has a 6spd transmission that is heavier, has to have stronger brakes plus the most important reason is that the Treg was built to accommodate engines from a V6 to the V10 Diesel that puts out 560ft/lbs of torque, that engine in a regular flimsy vehicle will twist everything from the transmission to the rear ends to the frame, the way I look at it we should be happy to have an extra strong vehicle.
Second I buy the argument that most of America does not go offroading but a good portion of SUV’s and truck owner do pull something weather is a boat or a camping trailer or a utility trailer with anything on it or a horse trailer, that is the utility aspect of the Treg, I am happy that is how the vehicles has been conceived, I could pull a heavy camping trailer and go to the mountains and get on a trail and camp out on the wilderness off the beaten path. Better to have and no need than need and not have.
The market offers a lot of SUV’s, if someone wants economy only he should buy a car based SUV, although I never understood the point of buying an SUV for just seating higher, for me the useful aspects of it is what counts, that is what the U stands for.
My two cents
Now in fairness, the emphasis on performance and sport was quite high; and, as noted the poor Touareg is saddled with "only" 310HP which for purposes of this test gave it the poorest power to weight ratio.
BTW the Cadillac "station wagon" was #1, followed closely (1 point down) by the Cayanne (despite its bloated price, due to the Porsche name plate so says C/D) and #3 was the Infinity FX45 which they said had the "worst ride."
Damned with faint praise is my take on it, but there is a part of me that secretly says "go Cadillac." And since they called the Caddy a "station wagon" I must protest the omission of the Audi allroad 4.2 from this comparo.
All the "cars" were at least $53K+ and change, the Touareg was the least expensive, the Porsche the most.
The allroad at $54K would have been right at home.
The Touareg's weight of 5612 lbs - 1120 lbs more than the FX - probably knocked down its total point score (171) more than anything else, as it's just too heavy to compete well in the performance tests (0-60 in 7.5 secs vs 6.4 for the FX, despite having just 5 less HP). But in fairness, considering its awesome off-road capability - up to 11.8 inches of ground clearance and 7700 lb towing capacity - its performance is pretty amazing, and it has the nicest interior of this group, IMO.
It just all depends what features are most important to you, as all of these models are fine choices - this has gotten to be a very competitive segment.
I can not decide which car is right for me, I do not want to feel like my hand is in the cookie jar
If, on the other hand, none of the above apply, there are plenty of choices for more and for less
money.
But, if you are seeking a great multi-purpose family automobile with a great Warranty; the Touareg is for you...
That all four vehicles were close says, "there's not a loser in the bunch" (in the comparo). However, it is important to note that C&D loves quickness and with the power to weight ratio of this group, the Touareg was simply outgunned.
My unprovable guess is that the VW would have scored 2nd or 3rd place with a few tenths of a second shaved off of its 0 to whatever times.
Moreover, I think the Porsche would have scored #1 had it a lower MSRP (the article said the Porsche name saddled the Cayenne with a $15,000 penalty).
Those considering the Touareg should not feel they are getting the loser of the bunch, unless of course 0 - 60 times are your first consideration.
One of them (4Wheel & Off Road?) just tested a new Cayenne. I think it was the turbo, but am not sure. They loved it on road, in fact they said it had the best tranny they've ever tested.
They were less enthused, however, with its off-road abilities. These magazines ALWAYS put a top priority on axle articulation, and that's often the downfall if IFS/IRS setups.
I don't agree with them. My feeling is, if the vehicle made it through -- even with 1 wheel off the ground, that's all that matters; even if it relied on a overly complex & so-called trick 4WD system.
Bob
I have a Mercedes Unimog and an ML and there could be no more contrast in the two if they were made by two different manufacturers, my 406 is so dedicated to off the road work that it can not travel on the interstate because is slow, heavy and has too many gears churning, is a manual 20 speed and even being manual the transmission will get hot and boil the heavy oil at 55mph if sustained for long periods of time, and if you can make it past 60 let’s say the ride is going to be exciting. The bottom line it has to be trailered, and the ML off course can not go and do what the Unimog will do.
Extreme articulation requires good body to axle clearance and long stretchy springs but you are riding like on a water bed, I heard of this guy going along the side of a hill on a highly modified Jeep while everybody made it his flipped over because the springs compressed on one side and stretched on the other, leaned pass the center of gravity and rolled over, they were going at less than 10mph.
I f your Touareg excelled off road but was a porker on the road you would be terribly upset because your are going to spend 99% of the time on the highway.
I think, or better said, I hope someone will write the other side of the story -- hopefully NOT every single Touareg is a dud, or has issues, as the post suggests.
And, suggesting that we en masse strike the Touareg from our shopping lists, is, based on what I have read here and other places a tad extreme.
It is a virtually all new vehicle from the ground up isn't it? It has a ton (or two) of very new and highly sophisticated technology built deep into the vehicle and it's sub-systems.
I don't know how anyone could possibly expect every VW dealer's service department to be up to speed on everything on a completely brand new vehicle like the Touareg nor will everything function perfectly the first year out.
Just be aware that some issues will "probably" surface and that they "probably" won't be easy to fix (but what new vehicle is these days).
Some of these new vehicle risks are being reduced by other manufacturers as they share major components from one platform to a new one (Nissan for example) but there are always still bugs to be worked out, regardless of manufacturer.
To be on the cutting edge like VW is with the Touareg has inherent risks (and rewards when everything works as designed).
He was looking at my allroad and mentioned that the computer interface in his Bimmer has never worked perfectly and can still be made to fail. He loves most other aspects of the car, but recently test drove a new allroad and a new A8L -- he claims the Audi MMI is much more intuitive and easy to use quickly.
I cannot comment -- but this tracks well with what I have read.
I do not think we should stop commenting on the issues that are out there about our vehicles, but I still cannot imagine that every Touareg has issues of such gravity that we should in a public forum condemn them all.
I just got a call from Audi customers relations -- they said they noted my car had several returns to the dealership for my "mystery" power door-locks.
The Audi manual claims that the allroad can be programmed to automatically lock the doors at 20kph and unlock them when the key is removed.
My door locks will do just that for several weeks, then they will quit then they will start up again for no reason -- my wife's 03TT is the same way.
Every Audi I have had since 1995 has been programmed to perform this function and once it was programmed it stuck! The 03's have a different computer and god knows why they seem to have a mind of their own.
Audi spent 20 minutes on the phone with me attempting to "make me happy." I told them, "this is a minor minor minor annoyance" I love the car, will buy another and it is my 25th Audi product since 1978 -- this is a non-issue in other words.
My point is VWoA (and that is who the call came from) was attempting to resolve my issue with something that is so far down the problem pole, I would never have brought it up.
This company is doing the right things; the push upmarket that is happening with VW will allow VW owners to enjoy much the same treatment. These are great cars (overall) and getting better.
I still maintain that VW and Audi buyers have higher expectations than many other car buyers and that they are expecting more from the whole experience. Cars are getting more complicated every day -- I expect things that get more complicated may have more opportunities for improvement.
Here is another interesting fact:
More than one-fourth (28%) of those vehicle shoppers who leave a dealership without making a purchase state that the main reason they didn’t purchase from that dealership was because they didn’t like the way the dealer treated them (as opposed to not liking the vehicle itself or believing they could get a lower price somewhere else).
Approximately one-half of these shoppers go on to purchase an entirely different brand rather than seek out another same-make dealer.
Source: J.D. Power and Associates 2003 Sales Satisfaction Index (SSI) StudySM
Extrapolate to your experiences and furthermore extrapolate to the service dept.
Now, on this issue, VW has a long way to go -- but I for one am rooting for them and think they'll get there.
It does sound like VW has been making good progress with both assembly and the dealer experience the last year or so. One friend of mine is really enjoying his new Passat.
Steve, Host
Horst S.
I noticed that the torque curve on the 6 cylinder dips between 3000 and 5500rpm from 225pf. to approx.200pf.
I don't know where you got your numbers from, and I don't quite understand all of them, but the above sounds pretty flat to me. A drop of only 11% in torque, but an increase of 63% in power in that range looks good to me. Note that most people would want the torque to be strong down low (i.e., below 3000rpm) for this vehicle.
- D.
Tahoe.
V8 5.3 liter engine.
Max torque 330ft/lbs at 4000 RPM
Towing 7800lbs.
Touareg
V8 4.2 liter engine
Max torque 302ft/lbs at 3000 RPM
Towing 7700lbs.
The Tahoe despite having a 1.1 liter bigger engine develops only 28ft/lbs of torque more that the Treg, but the very one thing you are striking is the fact that the VW achieves peak torque at 1000rpms LESS than the Tahoe, which is a good thing, we don’t want to rev up the engine to achieve peak torque.
And transmission is 1/2 when pulling or racing or cruising, that 6 speed can match better engine to load requirements than a 4 or 5 spd could.
* Sensors for heigh adjustments tended to fail
* Some odd electrical gremlins
What is it with VW and electricals?! Maybe they ought to hire some electrical engineers, or something!
All kidding aside, I wouldn't wait a year for VW to sort out the bugs on the Touareg. Given their past track record, they usually get most of the bugs ironed out by year 5 to 7 (look at the Coil and window problems!), compared to Honda and Toyota who get it done right by year 2.
Actually, my family does own a VW product, and we are pretty happy with that car. So happy in fact, that I've been tracking the progress of the Touareg when it is time for me to get a replacement car.
The Touareg's interior design is PHENOMENAL! The VW engineers have literally thought of everything, and I can certainly say it is an impressive car. However, having been burned by the previous Jetta purchase, I take a more cautious and critical eye on VW quality.
The facts stand that it did take VW over five years to correct a simple window problem on their Beetles/Golfs/Jettas. And roughly three years for the coil pack problems, and various electrical gremlins on all their models.
VW just doesn't get around to fixing the bugs as soon as other car companies do - which really drags them down. I can honestly say, that many of our Jetta driving friends will not make another VW purchase because of these problems - which is really sad when they could be driving a reliable and refined Passat.
My point was simple. The Touareg is a great car. All first year production cars will have teething problems, maybe to the second or third year - that's how it is with cars, but by what I have seen and experienced with VW products, that teething problem tends to be a lot longer (3-5 years), and sometimes really doesn't get addressed at all.
Yes, the Odyssey is my "dream car" for the moment, but I'd love to be able to drive a Touareg one of these years. And no, I am not as ignorant on VW products as you might mistaken me to be. Keep up your great informative posts, but please don't assume that every cross poster is also a mud-slinger.
tidester, host
The Coil Pack and window regulator issues were addressed in a common sense manner...Not all of the Coil Packs are bad, nor are all the window regulators...These problems were random; with no set format...I have customers that have experienced neither...Additionally, you are making broad, brush stroke statements with very limited information...
It is important to remember that most Service issues are Dealership based...some are just better than others. And, no one business is perfect 100% of the time...
We've never known anyone with coil-pack problems, but our service rep has also told us about them till recently too.
The service department we go to is pretty capable, and honest - which is why we continue to give them our business. I appreciate their input greatly because they see all of the problems for each model, and tell me what they are when I ask for it - rather than sugar-coat the truth and say that all the models are "great."
Incidentally, despite the few problems they have seen with regards to the height adjustment sensors, the most common problem they have seen with the Touareg is owner ignorance - they are not up to speed with the features of the Touareg, so a lot of the visits are pretty much a "Read the Manual" fix.
I stand by my assesment of VW taking 3-5 years to address what you call "Common Sense" matters. It is an assesment I have seen, experienced, and confirmed as an actual VW owner. I can only hope that VW has improved on this record, as it will only help them sell their cars better.
Steve, Host
The trick is to continue calling VWoA everytime it happens, so they have a track record of this problem. Once they see the pattern, they tend to work with you on it.
VWoA's handling of our Jetta's window problems was one of the major factors why we chose the Passat over the Accord. It isn't everyday you see a company doing the right thing.
Steve, Host
Funny how a good dealer can make the worst lemon tolerable, and vice versa.
Steve, Host
All in all a very encouraging review -- the Touareg, while hardly "inexpensive" still seems to be written about in terms that generally make it appear to be a downright bargain (and this one had the pricey air suspension).
Anyway, after the virtual drubbing the T-reg got in the current Car and Driver it was refreshing to see a report favorable to the Touareg.
Indeed it even had some words about the Phaeton that, superficially at least, were positive.
I'm thrilled (so far) with the car. The buying experience, on the other hand, was a totally different story..........
Is there a tiptronic shift-lag on the Touareg like the Passat? That's the only thing that really keeps me from using Tiptronic.