If you want to consider only Big 2 vehicles, the Ford Lightning would be a good choice. Although it is only rated to tow 5000lb at sea level, at 10,000 ft., it would be blowing past weak Chev and Ford V10 trucks.
If you want towing power at altitude, you gotta have something that's turbocharged. No if's, and's or but's about it.
I vacationed in a 27' Class C motorhome on a 350 chassis with a V-10 a couple of years ago, and was amazed at the amount of gas it used in the mountains. On the order of 7-8 mpg. Going over a 10,000' pass in Utah, my wife offered to get out and push. Went all the way down to first gear. No guts at altitude. I was sorely disappointed.
My choice now is an F350 SuperDuty Crew with 7.3L diesel. (Don't go away, read the rest of the message...;-)
It isn't noisy on the road, It isn't smelly on the road, and it rarely kicks out of overdrive when I drive through the mountains. I leave it on cruise control and it just reaches a little deeper into the torque bucket and muscles it's way up the hill, with or without a load.
It's not about horsepower, it's about torque. Period. And I have 500 ft-lbs on tap. As for towing, if I can hook it up, I can tow it.
My diesel has NEVER given me less than 14 mpg. On the open (flat) road I get 19-20 mpg. I calculate that it saves me about $1200 a year in fuel costs, based on 30k miles/yr. That's a lot of cash. For that much, I can put up with a little bit of clatter at a stoplight. I just roll up the window and hit the A/C.
Just thought you might want to consider these facts. The diesels are really good trucks. Do yourself a favor and test-drive some (any brand) and be honest with your evaluation. The gas engines, even Bamatundra's supercharged Toyota's, won't be able to hold a candle to the diesels in overall performance and economy. You might be surprised... you might even change your mind...
Bamatundra: No mini Tacoma.......it has no room. No Ford Lightning....I live in Colorado. I need a 4X4
jdtopper: Thanks for your input. Maybe I will check out the diesels. I just doubt I'll be able to handle all that metal clanking and stink. When you start it up in the garage how do you handle the foul oder? I don't know, they just remind me too much of a John Deere tractor. Do they offer a hay bailer and tiller option? (just kidding)
to fit in my garage, so I don't expect I'll ever have to deal with that particular issue. It's a TRUCK...it lives outside.
It has a built-in block heater, but I've never had to use it. It starts just fine, even on a 10,000' mountain top in the middle of deer season under a foot of snow and freezing my butt off. Two batteries are standard equipment. It cranks over easier at altitude, as does every internal combustion engine, because the air is less dense up there. You won't have any problem at all in CO.
When I bought my 350, I knew that I would be keeping it for a very long time, and didn't want to limit my options. If I had it to do over, I would probably go with the F250, just for the somewhat softer ride. It's pretty unlikely that I will ever reach capacity load with the 350, or even with the 250. With the Crew cab and a hard tonneau cover, I can take just about anybody or anything I want with me and keep everything dry. It's so big inside, I almost need an intercom for the back seat...
By the way, mine IS a 4x4, so the mileages I quoted yesterday are realistic for your situation. If it were two-wheel drive, they would be even better. Check 'em out.
Don't try this at home....Listening to Bamatundra, that is. It is really disturbing to think that someone might read one of the dangerous statements he makes concerning the capabilities of the Tacoma and actually believe him. Fact is, PULLING the trailer is only part of the equation in SAFE towing. More so in the mountains. As others have said, STOPPING/BRAKING, and the ability to handle cross winds and emergency maneuvers are probably more important. In my opinion, anyone who advocates using a Tacoma, over a full size truck, in 8,000 to 10,000 foot mountains to pull a trailer (even of 3500 pounds) is being foolish if not down right irresponsible. You can't buy "too much truck" for this purpose, but you can darn sure buy too little...such as a Taco.
You had better learn how to read first before you advise people about listening. I advised getting a truck with a forced intake engine and said on several occasions that Ford or Dodge turbodiesels would be good choices. Chevy's problem is that their turbodiesel is connected to a Chevy (the Yugo of pickups).
The Tacoma is rated to tow 5000lb. This guy is talking about towing 3500 - a cake walk for a Tacoma. There are many, many people who tow this weight or greater with their Tacomas.
If you are feeling inadequate and want a bigger truck - then get a Tundra. 3500lb would be less than half its tow rating. Truckworld connected a 5000lb boat to a Tundra and said that they had to keep checking their mirrors to see that there was anything back there. You would still be blowing by normally aspirated 8.1L Chevs in the passes.
I don't know how else you can get a supercharged engine and still get 40% more powertrain warranty than any other truck on the road. Even a V6 supercharged will outperform much larger normally aspirated V8 vehicles at altitude.
Personally - If I wanted to tow 3500lb at 10,000 ft. altitude, I would wait till summer and plunk down $3500 for a factory approved supercharger for my V8 Tundra. It would be fun to embarass Chev 8.1L and Ford V10 trucks in the passes.
As far as brakes go, Chev's 1500HD which is rated to haul 2800lb took 32ft farther than a Tundra to stop when both were loaded with just 1000lb. I would rather have a Tundra in the mountains or anywhere else than their wimpy excuse for a so-called HD pickup.
1)The 1500 HD is a half ton truck.Still not a real truck to me. 2)A supercharged 8.1 puts out 476 HP and 637 LB of torque.(Whipple's figures) 3)Nobody who's ever towed 3500 lb with a Taco recomends driving in the mountains or launching a boat with it.
Forced INDUCTION-you bet,but Taco,no way and Tundra,not yet.(and they STILL have half ton brakes) kip
With a naturally aspirated engine, horsepower drops off 3 percent per 1000 ft (300m) because of the 3 percent decrease in air density per 1000 ft (300 m).
So at an altitude of 10,000ft, power would decrease 30%.
Like it or not, Bama has a point about superchargers being beneficial to high-altitude conditions, and the only manufacturer offering a warranty on a supercharged engine is Toyota.
believe what im hearing. even talking about tacomas and tundras towing as much weight as a ford V10 or gm 8.1 is ludicrous. i dont care if you're driving up pikes peak. id like to see how many s/c'd tacomas tow campers or anything else up pikes peak as compared to sd's or hd's. you guys are totally off your rocker. obviously, you guys are two toyota peas in a pod of real trucks. these people who pull huge fifth wheels through the mountains would fall of their chair laughing at you twos' (notice the plural possessive) claims. tacoma- s/c'd or ford V10...uhh, give me a minute. lmao, the sd would pull the tacoma APART-literally and with three tundras stacked on its bed.
heck, if you want to talk about tow ratings for small trucks, your little tacoma's max. rating of 5000 is still 650 lbs. less than a 4.0 ranger. add a paxton or vortech s/c WITH warranty and you're still under any tacoma price with a "factory" s/c. now you've even got more horsepower and torque than a s/c'd taco and more moolaa left over.
I own a 2500LD. Best brakes I have ever had on a truck. Brake tests never seem to mention what size and brand of tires are on the vehicles, but you can bet they are not the same. Your Toymachismo has destroyed any objectivity you ever had. You show up in every discussion about trucks bragging about how much better a Toy can do whatever is being discussed. Some things, yes. Everything, no. Towing ANYTHING is a "NO". Tom
Bama....Have you done any towing in the 10000'-12000' elevation? I know there ain't no mountains in the south. I'm up and down these big hills here in Colorado all summer. You don't see people here towing anything with a Tacoma. I have seen people towing small boats and and small travel trailers with Tundras. I don't give a rip about tow ratings. If the truck can't move it up the mountain at a speed limit clip and down the mountain safely I don't want it. I think all those tow ratings are for sea level purposes.
I forgot to mention......when I got bit by the buy a new truck bug last year I thought I'd check out the Tundra. I checked it all out and it looked like a nice truck. I asked the salesman if it could handle the Colorado mountains with a 3500 lb boat in tow. "Sure, sure no problem" On the way out I stopped by and and talked with 2 tech's. One guy said "If it was my truck I wouldn't". The other said "Go by a diesel or a big V-8"
At 10 to 12 thousand feet everything is way down on power.You don't see PUs pulling 10,000 lbs running at the speed limit on the upper parts of Colorado passes.30 to 40 is the norm.Accept that fact and any big American torque motor will do just fine.
One of the facts about a S/C is that until the engine RPM goes well above 2000 the S/C acts as a restriction in the intake as well a robbing power from the engine, this is not really an issue unless you like to cruise down the highway @2000RPM like most trucks do. Granted when the S/C starts to work efficiently you get all kinds of power but the sacrifice is revving your engine @3000RPM all the time. Another thing is that anybody that thinks you can tow a 3500# anything with a light duty truck they are a hazard on the highway. If you ask people that tow a lot they will tell you they are very sensitive about what is going on with the trailer at all times. I know I can tell if the safety chains on the trailer are crossed or not just from the sound that they make going down the highway.
I've pulled with a Tacoma, a Cherokee, and a diesel Ram to name a few recently. A 4cyl Tacoma can pull fairly well, and I wouldn't be scared to launch a 3500# boat etc. The Jeep takes it a notch higher with it's strong 4.0L and will tow 5000# and has ok power doing so. The Ram will pull anything I put behind it, and multiple times easier. It's hard to compare because bumper trailers pull much different than gooseneck/5th wheels. But I've had a 13000# bumper pull boat on my Ram and the stability was similar to the Jeep with a 4000# horse trailer. That's the difference just because of wheelbase, weight, width, suspension, etc. Any vehicle that is smaller will be less stable, and I'm really not comfortable towing with the smaller vehicles. I do it around town and such, but getting on the highway and traveling with a 5000# trailer and a 3500# vehicle isn't my idea of a good time.
do check out some of the newer diesels. My Ram is noisier than the Chevy or Ford, but frankly I don't think it's too bad in the cab. Outside it's noisey, but I usually drive from the inside. I still agree that diesels are noisier, and do at times smell. I don't warm any vehicle up in a garage, but yes a diesel will smell at start-up if you're hanging out around the back of the truck. Diesel does have a stronger odor when filling up, but it's not that big of a deal. Personally, I think the sound a diesel makes is much less offensive than the revving non-sense a gasser will make to pull the same hills a diesel will pull in overdrive.
I know you claim there aren't any real mountains east of Miss, but I've been in gas cars/trucks that had to downshift through the WV turnpike with nothing more than a couple passengers and luggage. I've got to have a pretty big load on before my Ram comes out of OD on any of the "hills". I've pulled with a SD diesel with manual tranny through that stretch, and with 11000# on, I came out of 6th twice, and 5th once mainly because some moron slowed me down.
If Bama ever tried to pull 3500# across 64 in WV with his taco, the second thing he'd do in Charleston, WV is trade for a full size truck. You're right, lariat. They aren't 10,000 feet, but they will let you know the difference between a capable tow vehicle and a pretender. Tom
Totally disagree!!! There are generally 2 types of blowers, centrifigul and roots or screw.
The centrifugal S/C is a lot like a turbo but driven by a belt. The positive displacement(or roots) will give instant throttle response.
In fact, I think the main reason I don't like turbo diesels is because of turbo lag. I don't know if it is still true but a lot of OTR tractors used positive displacement blowers. They were categorized by cylinders and displacement; 6-71, 8-71, 12-71 etc. These are the direct cousins of the blowers used on Top fuel dragsters(and on my boat)
I will agree on the centrifugal blowers needing to wind up, but there are none used in production vehicles as far as I know(GM 3.8, Ford 3.8, Ford 5.4 all use roots type blowers)And I can assure you a 5.4 lightning motor makes more power from idle to redline with less static compression than its N/A brother.
I (and my friends at Whipple Superchargers,here in fresno)agree completly.The compressor on the Lightning AND TACOMA are roots type manufactured by Eaton.(That's right Toyota outsorces.)My wifes 98 Mustang has a Vortech centrifugal blower ,and there is "turbo lag" with these.For the best off the line power you want Whipple's twin screw compressor(manufactured by Lysholm ind. in Germany.)Whipple has been selling supercharger kits for Chevy engines for quite a few years and now makes them for Ford 5.4 V8 and 6.8 V10.Whipple is easily found on the web,word search Whipple superchargers.Dustin or Vince will help you find an installer in your area.Most kits are smog legaland add 40% or more HP and torque from idle to redline. kip
The Toyota supercharged V6 has more torque at 1800 RPM than the stock engine has at its peak. Huge increases in low-end torque is one of the big advantages of a supercharger.
Bama seems to only understand half of the towing equation. I agree with him, and everyone else for that matter that suggests a blown engine will do better at altitude, but only to a point. Once you get up the hill, then you have to go down. This is where the Taco/Tundra/Camry with bigger tires will fail you. The brakes on a Toy aren't large enough to handle all that heat. The mass of the rotors and drums do not have a large enough heat sink to control fade. Bama, I know what you are thinking, let me draw you a picture. Are you familiar with auto racing, particularly NASCAR, IMSA, SCCA, etc.... These guys use different braking systems for different tracks. On super speedways where you run flat out all the time rarely using the brakes, they use a very thin rotor with a small heat sink. This is so that the rotor will come up to operating temp much faster. On short tracks or road courses where the brakes are used hard multiple times each lap, they use a very thick rotor with a huge heat sink. They don't come up to operating temp very quick, but they control fade much better. Now, stick with me here, I don't want to lose you. The thin rotors used on the super speedways will stop the car much more quickly, i.e. shorter distance, than the thicker rotor used on short tracks and road courses. This is due to the speed at which the rotor reaches its operating temp. This translates into why your Tundra will supposedly outbrake a 1500HD. The rotors on your Tundra are thinner than those on a real 1/2 ton, causing you to stop quicker. BUT, if you are on a long downgrade with any significant amount of weight behind you, where you really heat up your rotors, I believe you will find yourself in a heap of trouble before you get to the bottom.
I just hope I'm not in front of you when you get to the bottom, because you will not be able to stop once the brake fluid begins to boil as your rotors are glowing red from all that heat.
Good post,excellent brake explaination.I just hope our friend bama can read it objectivly.I towed a 4k lb boat with my Taco for 4 years and a total of probably 7-8k mi.On the unfortunate occations I needed to tow in the hills I kept in the lower gears,just like a tractor-trailer rig to avoid brake fade downhill and that's all it'd do uphill.This causes other motorists much anxiety and rightfully so.On two lane roads I used every turnout and on the freeway I used the truck lane with big rigs passing,pointing and laughing.(just like we all do with bama)
bama The Allison transmission used in my GMC had problems with the Electronic Valve Body and TCM .It kinda pisses me off that Allison wanted the trans out of my truck for research,instead of "reflashing" the TCM.This SAME GEAR-BOX With Vacuume valve body has been used in ISUZU trucks up to 26k GVW for ten years very succesfully.INn short .The Allison isn't weak but the first year in pickups had programming problems.I'm not slamming your choice in pickups.To me ALL the half ton trucks on the market are CARS,but if you keep up with the "if you need open heart surgery and Toyota don't do it ,you're gonna die"postings we're all going to keep laughing at you. kip
I'm familiar with that thread. Being an owner of an F-350, I was very surprised to see that problem show up. As I stated in one of my replies, I have over 100k on my truck and am still on the original rotors, not turned by the way, and original pads. I do tow with my truck as well. I think that guys problem lies elsewhere. I'm not saying it is in his driving, I am taking his word about his driving style. But I think one possibility could be the dealership not torquing the wheel studs properly, he never has replied as to whether he has a SRW or not. That thread does NOT blow my discussion out of the water.
A friend of mine owns Blackstone Brake,An auto repair shop here in Fresno.He tells me that the #1 cuase ,by a large margine ,of warped rotors is over torquing lug nuts.This includes the now infamous Tundra rotors.If you want to avoid warped rotors,don't let them use an impact wrench.Insist they use a torque wrench. kip
I have a 1995 Dodge Dakota Extra-Cab with the 5.2 and a 3:55 rear end and tow package. I tow a 3000 pound loaded travel trailer from the Sierra Foothills at 250 feet over the Donner Summit an elevation of 7200 feet to Lake Tahoe. After the camping weekend, I drive from an elevation at Lake level of 6400 feet, over the Donner Summit at 7200 feet,(same pass the Donner Party was under horse-powered in their rigs)back down to 250 feet. My trailer has electric brakes and my truck at 55,000 miles still have the original rear brakes and the front brakes were replaced at 45,000 with 10% left. The rotators were turned at that time, but it was my fault for pulling a 1800 pound tent trailer without electric brakes that caused the front brakes to heat up and warp.
A seriously loose head gasket in here! Or it could be a restricted pipe. Or maybe a loose nut. Or perhaps a clogged cat. Whatever it is, sure makes some strange noises. Tom
it's 1,000 lbs. Of course, how many of those little 16' aluminum jon boats going down the road behind a compact truck have trailer brakes? I'm sure less than one in ten.
I surmise that someone told you that there are no 10,000 ft. mountains in WV. I am glad that you finally realize this.
Let's see - Mrb12, KG12, and Tom12 (the DIRTY 12) all insist that you must have at least a 3/4ton GM to tow 3500lb.
This just shows how weak the Chevs are: I want to tow with 3500lb. The Chev 1/2 ton is rated at 8500lb. The (DIRTY 12) insist that you need at least a 3/4 ton Chev to tow 3500lb. WTF?
the point i was making was that a toyota dealer had a ford truck to do the heavy work. hilarious. do you want me to find some pics of f150's with plows? i just find it hilarious that toyota can't even provide its dealers with the truck to provide customers a way to look at their product if it snows. if it weren't for fords, toyota couldn't sell its product here in the midwest or any other climate that has snow.
...referring to my post about F350 rotors on another thread. I have an '00 SRW F350 4x4 diesel, have (almost) never towed anything, and - so far - very seldom load it with anything more than a couple of hundred pounds of camping/hunting gear.
My driving style is as I reported it: I baby the thing, use cruise control at the speed limit (or less, if the limit is more than 65 mph) and don't get myself into panic stop situations. That's why I don't understand the warped rotor thing.
I've never checked on the lug nut torque question, but you can bet I'll be calling the dealer today. Meanwhile, I'm at 40k miles total, my rotors have been turned twice, and I'm still at 75% on my original front pads. Doesn't make sense to me.
I don't think this topic is about snowplows. I really could care less which trucks if any are equipped with snowplows. I think that with some 1/2 ton trucks - it voids your warranty. Does Ford warranty snowplows on their 1/2 tons?
I'm wondering - can you tell me that Ford will replace the shrapnel that occurs when you put a supercharger on one of their vehicles while it is still under warranty? It seems to me that unless the supercharger was factory authorized, your [non-permissible content removed] would be grass.
I have a 1999 chevy silverado 1/2 ton with the 5.3L and a 3.73 rear end. Chevy claims I can tow 7500lbs of trailer weight. I drove 2000 miles with a 16 foot enclosed trailer, that when loaded weighs no more than 3000lbs. The truck pulled it ok untill I started climbing hills. The thing was downshifing all the time, I just had to drive it in thired. I know my chevy could blow away any toyota made, so I don't understand why you think a V6 would handle the job. Again, there is a difference between towing, and towing safely.
Your post #85 is much more reasonable. The tundra with the S/C V6 makes a lot more sense than the Taco in the mountains...Or on flat ground for that matter. I would still not choose the Tundra for this purpose, as I feel you would be taxing it's capability to the max. S/C V-8 is better, but you are still handling a 3500 pound trailer in mountainous conditions, and I would want a longer, heavier truck.
jrs400f....Bama's right about the S/C at altitude. When the normally aspirated gassers are gasping for air, the S/C V-6 will be stronger for pulling. But, you are also right about towing, and towing safely. Tom
Since you have the SRW version, stud torque could be a cause. If you have a torque wrench, I suggest checking it yourself. That way you'll know for sure. Of course, it's too late for your current rotors.
It's obvious that you don't use your brakes to their limit, or you wouldn't still have 75% of the pads left. Something else is causing the warped rotors. This may be a stupid question, but in my younger wilder days I had to learn this one the hard way. Do you drive through any water or spray cold water on your rotors immediately after heating them up? Such as maybe driving to the car wash?
...right, it's way too late for these rotors. They're down to 36.95mm after this turning; the minimum is 36.00mm. Next brake job I'll need new rotors for sure.
I used to road race motorcycles at AFM events in my former life, so I have a fair amount of experience with hot brakes, fading, and boiling fluid. With that in mind, I don't think I get my rotors "hot", ever... and there's not a lot of water on the roads here in sunny California, so I can't envision thermal shock as a cause.
From what I've heard so far, lug torque is the most plausible reason, though the dealer swears that torque was the first thing they checked. What they claim they do and what they actually do might be two different things. I notice, for example, that the tire pressure is always about 5-7 p.s.i. less than the Ford recommended pressure whenever I get it back after service. I'll be checking my own lugs in the future.
Question: Why did you want to know if mine was SRW or DRW? What difference would/does that make, especially since it is my front rotors that are warping?
The difference in the SRW setup as opposed to the DRW setup, other than the obvious rear tires, is in the hubs used on the front wheels. With the DRW setup, the front wheels bolt to a flange that is approximately 5-6 inches from the rotor, therefore no contact is made with the wheel. The SRW setup has the wheel bolting directly to the rotor. As a result, the rotor can be "pulled" too far into the wheel if too much torque is applied, then you get a warped rotor.
I can't say for sure if that is your problem, I just know that can be a problem on other vehicles.
The cold water thing was something that happened to me once. I drove a car to the car wash. When I put my money in, I immediately started to clean the tires and wheels. Well, you can guess what happened to the rotors when all that cold water hit those hot rotors, the car did the hoochie-coochie all the way to the parts store.
Once upon a time (please bear with me here) I drove a BMW 2002 across this country. From New Jersey to California, with a BMW 1800 in tow. I believe the weight of the 1800 was close to the 3000 pound mark with the junk that was stuffed into it. While this was not one of my wiser moves, it does provide an example of bamas suggestion that a toy will tow a trailer where you want to go. My 2002 had a 4 cyl two litre (121 cu in) engine that churned out 106 hp when new. At this point, it was not new. I made the trip with little drama (except on a turn during a serious rain near St. Louis after getting off the freeway, THAT was interesting...) and managed to keep up with the OTR trucks on the highways, even up hill. Now, this did include some pulls in second gear at higher rpm keeping pace with those trucks. Would I do it again? I don't think so. Would I consider doing it again in the likes of a compact truck? While I know that it would work with no expected problems, No. Not today, not likely tomorrow, thank you very much. Just because you can, doesn't make it an intelligent thing to do.
I am in the market for a new tow rig. I pull a 12,000lb conventional trailer (draw bar not 5th wheel) with load leveler hitch and electric trailer brakes. I've been looking at the specs on 3/4 and 1Ton 4x4 Chev/GMC vortec 8100, Ford V-10 and Dodge V-10. Would appreciate any advice on appropriate combination. Make, Engine, Trans, Differential. Only drive 8-10,000 mi/yr and tow 2,000 miles/yr so can't really justify extra cost of diesel power plant. All comments/recommendations/warnings greatfully solicited. Most pulling in NW so lots of Mtn Passes.
I pull about 4000 t0 5000 miles per year and am using a F250 SD V10 with 4.3 rear gears. The F250 is rated for a 12,500 trailer, and 14,200 fifth wheel and that is higher legal capacity than the diesel. Gets 11mpg to 14mpg town vs highway without trailer. My trailer is 10,000lbs and it gets 8 to 9.5 when towing. Don't know much about Chevy's and Dodges as I have never seriously pulled with one of them. When it comes to towing I have always looked to Ford. During our Alaska trip of 2001 at least 7 or 8 out of ten trucks towing the highway were Fords, not many dodges and the rest Chevy's and GMC's. Don't remember any Toyotas at all.
Drove from Minneapolis to Kansas City yesterday. I decided to count the number of trucks pulling fifth-wheel campers, fifth-wheel horse trailers or gooseneck-type utility trailers. I only counted trucks pulling these three specific types of trailers - no light-duty or draw-bar type trailers were included. I counted a total of 66 trucks pulling these heavier-duty type trailers. There were 29 Chevy/GMC's, 18 Dodges, 19 Fords and 0 Toyotas (and although they were sagging pretty good in the back, I did actually see at least one 1/2-ton truck of each one of these makes pulling one of these types of trailers - except Toyota). There seemed to be a pretty fair distribution between newer (about 2/3) and older (about 1/3) trucks with the majority (probably at least 3/4) being duallies (although I didn't specifically try to keep track of this).
First just some info for resmith, my biggest reccommendation for you is to get the manual tranny in the truck of your choice. Both Ford and GM use 6 speeds , Dodge 5 speed. In the end the extra gear ratio makes the biggest difference when towing up a long steep hill.
I do have some personal experience towing at altitude up steep hills with both Toyotas and full size trucks. Bama get out your tissues.
I live in Utah, so I know a thing or 2 about high altitude and towing. I-80 about 30 miles east of Salt Lake City (4300 ft elevation) goes over Parley's Summit (around 9000 ft).
At one point I owned a 3200# boat, which I pulled over this pass and many others many times with several different vehicles. Two of those vehicles were Toyotas. Both had the 3.4L v-6 and 5spd manual trannys, one was a Taco 2wd, the other a 4 Runner 4wd. Much to my suprise they did pull the load rather well going up 35-40 MPH at the top in 3rd gear. Going down the other side was scarry as hell, the trailer only had a surge type brake, and pushed the truck all over. The only way to combat this was to go slower than 40 all the way down. It was not much fun.
The full size trucks I towed with were a 67 Chev 1/2 ton 2wd auto, and a 76 Chev Blazer auto. These both towed up at around the same speed 40 mph in 2nd gear (3 speed auto trannies). Going down the other side, had no real drama, just let the rig roll up to 65-70.
As I pointed out at the first, having more gear ratios to chose from when towing up a hill makes a much bigger difference than an extra 20 HP or ft/lbs.
Auto trannys eat more power than manuals do.GM's Allison eats more power than Ford's AT but has one more gear,and catam is right about the importance of that.Ford and GM both use the same 6 spd and in either truck you'll get more HP to the road.(about 10% for Ford and 15% for GM)
CATAM Your Toyota towing experience was very much like mine.My boat is 4000lb so uphill was a little slower(alot of 2nd gear 20-25 mph) and down hill was terrifying even at 35,the boat did all the steering.Poor Bama isn't ready to face the reality the rest of us live in.When I posted this info,he called me a liar.
...he doesn't have much (if any) practical experience putting any thing in his Tundra's hitch reciever except a bike rack!
Bama it's kind of like this: My 600lb 400cc atv will and has pulled a 2000lb auto trailer around a short distance but I don't want to try to pull it down the interstate at 70mph......unless of course I put a supercharger on the atv!! LOL!
Hound, I forgot that I pull my boat in and out of the garage with my Craftsman riding mower. If I supercharge the mower can I just keep going to the lake???
Comments
Something to consider!
I vacationed in a 27' Class C motorhome on a 350 chassis with a V-10 a couple of years ago, and was amazed at the amount of gas it used in the mountains. On the order of 7-8 mpg. Going over a 10,000' pass in Utah, my wife offered to get out and push. Went all the way down to first gear. No guts at altitude. I was sorely disappointed.
My choice now is an F350 SuperDuty Crew with 7.3L diesel. (Don't go away, read the rest of the message...;-)
It isn't noisy on the road, It isn't smelly on the road, and it rarely kicks out of overdrive when I drive through the mountains. I leave it on cruise control and it just reaches a little deeper into the torque bucket and muscles it's way up the hill, with or without a load.
It's not about horsepower, it's about torque. Period. And I have 500 ft-lbs on tap. As for towing, if I can hook it up, I can tow it.
My diesel has NEVER given me less than 14 mpg. On the open (flat) road I get 19-20 mpg. I calculate that it saves me about $1200 a year in fuel costs, based on 30k miles/yr. That's a lot of cash. For that much, I can put up with a little bit of clatter at a stoplight. I just roll up the window and hit the A/C.
Just thought you might want to consider these facts. The diesels are really good trucks. Do yourself a favor and test-drive some (any brand) and be honest with your evaluation. The gas engines, even Bamatundra's supercharged Toyota's, won't be able to hold a candle to the diesels in overall performance and economy. You might be surprised... you might even change your mind...
JT
No Ford Lightning....I live in Colorado. I need a 4X4
jdtopper: Thanks for your input. Maybe I will check out the diesels. I just doubt I'll be able to handle all that metal clanking and stink. When you start it up in the garage how do you handle the foul oder? I don't know, they just remind me too much of a John Deere tractor. Do they offer a hay bailer and tiller option? (just kidding)
It has a built-in block heater, but I've never had to use it. It starts just fine, even on a 10,000' mountain top in the middle of deer season under a foot of snow and freezing my butt off. Two batteries are standard equipment. It cranks over easier at altitude, as does every internal combustion engine, because the air is less dense up there. You won't have any problem at all in CO.
When I bought my 350, I knew that I would be keeping it for a very long time, and didn't want to limit my options. If I had it to do over, I would probably go with the F250, just for the somewhat softer ride. It's pretty unlikely that I will ever reach capacity load with the 350, or even with the 250. With the Crew cab and a hard tonneau cover, I can take just about anybody or anything I want with me and keep everything dry. It's so big inside, I almost need an intercom for the back seat...
By the way, mine IS a 4x4, so the mileages I quoted yesterday are realistic for your situation. If it were two-wheel drive, they would be even better. Check 'em out.
Good posts jdtopper!
Tom
The Tacoma is rated to tow 5000lb. This guy is talking about towing 3500 - a cake walk for a Tacoma. There are many, many people who tow this weight or greater with their Tacomas.
If you are feeling inadequate and want a bigger truck - then get a Tundra. 3500lb would be less than half its tow rating. Truckworld connected a 5000lb boat to a Tundra and said that they had to keep checking their mirrors to see that there was anything back there. You would still be blowing by normally aspirated 8.1L Chevs in the passes.
I don't know how else you can get a supercharged engine and still get 40% more powertrain warranty than any other truck on the road. Even a V6 supercharged will outperform much larger normally aspirated V8 vehicles at altitude.
Personally - If I wanted to tow 3500lb at 10,000 ft. altitude, I would wait till summer and plunk down $3500 for a factory approved supercharger for my V8 Tundra. It would be fun to embarass Chev 8.1L and Ford V10 trucks in the passes.
As far as brakes go, Chev's 1500HD which is rated to haul 2800lb took 32ft farther than a Tundra to stop when both were loaded with just 1000lb. I would rather have a Tundra in the mountains or anywhere else than their wimpy excuse for a so-called HD pickup.
2)A supercharged 8.1 puts out 476 HP and 637 LB of torque.(Whipple's figures)
3)Nobody who's ever towed 3500 lb with a Taco recomends driving in the mountains or launching a boat with it.
Forced INDUCTION-you bet,but Taco,no way and Tundra,not yet.(and they STILL have half ton brakes)
kip
So at an altitude of 10,000ft, power would decrease 30%.
Like it or not, Bama has a point about superchargers being beneficial to high-altitude conditions, and the only manufacturer offering a warranty on a supercharged engine is Toyota.
heck, if you want to talk about tow ratings for small trucks, your little tacoma's max. rating of 5000 is still 650 lbs. less than a 4.0 ranger. add a paxton or vortech s/c WITH warranty and you're still under any tacoma price with a "factory" s/c. now you've even got more horsepower and torque than a s/c'd taco and more moolaa left over.
Your Toymachismo has destroyed any objectivity you ever had. You show up in every discussion about trucks bragging about how much better a Toy can do whatever is being discussed. Some things, yes. Everything, no. Towing ANYTHING is a "NO".
Tom
On the way out I stopped by and and talked with 2 tech's. One guy said "If it was my truck I wouldn't". The other said "Go by a diesel or a big V-8"
Another thing is that anybody that thinks you can tow a 3500# anything with a light duty truck they are a hazard on the highway. If you ask people that tow a lot they will tell you they are very sensitive about what is going on with the trailer at all times. I know I can tell if the safety chains on the trailer are crossed or not just from the sound that they make going down the highway.
kip
I know you claim there aren't any real mountains east of Miss, but I've been in gas cars/trucks that had to downshift through the WV turnpike with nothing more than a couple passengers and luggage. I've got to have a pretty big load on before my Ram comes out of OD on any of the "hills". I've pulled with a SD diesel with manual tranny through that stretch, and with 11000# on, I came out of 6th twice, and 5th once mainly because some moron slowed me down.
If Bama ever tried to pull 3500# across 64 in WV with his taco, the second thing he'd do in Charleston, WV is trade for a full size truck. You're right, lariat. They aren't 10,000 feet, but they will let you know the difference between a capable tow vehicle and a pretender.
Tom
The centrifugal S/C is a lot like a turbo but driven by a belt. The positive displacement(or roots) will give instant throttle response.
In fact, I think the main reason I don't like turbo diesels is because of turbo lag. I don't know if it is still true but a lot of OTR tractors used positive displacement blowers. They were categorized by cylinders and displacement; 6-71, 8-71, 12-71 etc. These are the direct cousins of the blowers used on Top fuel dragsters(and on my boat)
I will agree on the centrifugal blowers needing to wind up, but there are none used in production vehicles as far as I know(GM 3.8, Ford 3.8, Ford 5.4 all use roots type blowers)And I can assure you a 5.4 lightning motor makes more power from idle to redline with less static compression than its N/A brother.
kip
I just hope I'm not in front of you when you get to the bottom, because you will not be able to stop once the brake fluid begins to boil as your rotors are glowing red from all that heat.
bama The Allison transmission used in my GMC had problems with the Electronic Valve Body and TCM .It kinda pisses me off that Allison wanted the trans out of my truck for research,instead of "reflashing" the TCM.This SAME GEAR-BOX With Vacuume valve body has been used in ISUZU trucks up to 26k GVW for ten years very succesfully.INn short .The Allison isn't weak but the first year in pickups had programming problems.I'm not slamming your choice in pickups.To me ALL the half ton trucks on the market are CARS,but if you keep up with the "if you need open heart surgery and Toyota don't do it ,you're gonna die"postings we're all going to keep laughing at you.
kip
kip
Tom
Let's see - Mrb12, KG12, and Tom12 (the DIRTY 12) all insist that you must have at least a 3/4ton GM to tow 3500lb.
This just shows how weak the Chevs are: I want to tow with 3500lb. The Chev 1/2 ton is rated at 8500lb. The (DIRTY 12) insist that you need at least a 3/4 ton Chev to tow 3500lb. WTF?
My driving style is as I reported it: I baby the thing, use cruise control at the speed limit (or less, if the limit is more than 65 mph) and don't get myself into panic stop situations. That's why I don't understand the warped rotor thing.
I've never checked on the lug nut torque question, but you can bet I'll be calling the dealer today. Meanwhile, I'm at 40k miles total, my rotors have been turned twice, and I'm still at 75% on my original front pads. Doesn't make sense to me.
I'm wondering - can you tell me that Ford will replace the shrapnel that occurs when you put a supercharger on one of their vehicles while it is still under warranty? It seems to me that unless the supercharger was factory authorized, your [non-permissible content removed] would be grass.
1. Did you really want to tow over 10000 ft?
2. Did you really want to tow 3500lb?
I suggested a solution which would involve a V6 engine and a compact or 1/2 ton truck. I am not trying to tell you what to tow with below 10,000 ft.
My suggestion since you want margin is to tow with a Tundra with a supercharged V6. If you can wait for summer, then a supercharged V8 is better.
jrs400f....Bama's right about the S/C at altitude. When the normally aspirated gassers are gasping for air, the S/C V-6 will be stronger for pulling. But, you are also right about towing, and towing safely.
Tom
It's obvious that you don't use your brakes to their limit, or you wouldn't still have 75% of the pads left. Something else is causing the warped rotors. This may be a stupid question, but in my younger wilder days I had to learn this one the hard way. Do you drive through any water or spray cold water on your rotors immediately after heating them up? Such as maybe driving to the car wash?
I used to road race motorcycles at AFM events in my former life, so I have a fair amount of experience with hot brakes, fading, and boiling fluid. With that in mind, I don't think I get my rotors "hot", ever... and there's not a lot of water on the roads here in sunny California, so I can't envision thermal shock as a cause.
From what I've heard so far, lug torque is the most plausible reason, though the dealer swears that torque was the first thing they checked. What they claim they do and what they actually do might be two different things. I notice, for example, that the tire pressure is always about 5-7 p.s.i. less than the Ford recommended pressure whenever I get it back after service. I'll be checking my own lugs in the future.
Question: Why did you want to know if mine was SRW or DRW? What difference would/does that make, especially since it is my front rotors that are warping?
I can't say for sure if that is your problem, I just know that can be a problem on other vehicles.
The cold water thing was something that happened to me once. I drove a car to the car wash. When I put my money in, I immediately started to clean the tires and wheels. Well, you can guess what happened to the rotors when all that cold water hit those hot rotors, the car did the hoochie-coochie all the way to the parts store.
While this was not one of my wiser moves, it does provide an example of bamas suggestion that a toy will tow a trailer where you want to go.
My 2002 had a 4 cyl two litre (121 cu in) engine that churned out 106 hp when new. At this point, it was not new.
I made the trip with little drama (except on a turn during a serious rain near St. Louis after getting off the freeway, THAT was interesting...) and managed to keep up with the OTR trucks on the highways, even up hill. Now, this did include some pulls in second gear at higher rpm keeping pace with those trucks.
Would I do it again? I don't think so.
Would I consider doing it again in the likes of a compact truck? While I know that it would work with no expected problems, No. Not today, not likely tomorrow, thank you very much. Just because you can, doesn't make it an intelligent thing to do.
Have a good evening
Frank K
In almost all states if you tow over 2000lb, trailer brakes are required. You had none. Not too smart!
You claim that you towed this dangerous rig across country and not only you survived, but you didn't kill anybody. Hooray!
Now, we are talking about towing 3500lb with a truck rated to tow 5000lb. It is well within its max ratings.
While it is not as stable as 1/2 or 3/4 ton trucks, it is adequate and will blow the doors off of them at 10,000 ft.
The fact that a supercharged V6 will have 40% more powertrain warranty than the Big2 is just a bonus.
I do have some personal experience towing at altitude up steep hills with both Toyotas and full size trucks. Bama get out your tissues.
I live in Utah, so I know a thing or 2 about high altitude and towing. I-80 about 30 miles east of Salt Lake City (4300 ft elevation) goes over Parley's Summit (around 9000 ft).
At one point I owned a 3200# boat, which I pulled over this pass and many others many times with several different vehicles. Two of those vehicles were Toyotas. Both had the 3.4L v-6 and 5spd manual trannys, one was a Taco 2wd, the other a 4 Runner 4wd. Much to my suprise they did pull the load rather well going up 35-40 MPH at the top in 3rd gear. Going down the other side was scarry as hell, the trailer only had a surge type brake, and pushed the truck all over. The only way to combat this was to go slower than 40 all the way down. It was not much fun.
The full size trucks I towed with were a 67 Chev 1/2 ton 2wd auto, and a 76 Chev Blazer auto. These both towed up at around the same speed 40 mph in 2nd gear (3 speed auto trannies). Going down the other side, had no real drama, just let the rig roll up to 65-70.
As I pointed out at the first, having more gear ratios to chose from when towing up a hill makes a much bigger difference than an extra 20 HP or ft/lbs.
CATAM Your Toyota towing experience was very much like mine.My boat is 4000lb so uphill was a little slower(alot of 2nd gear 20-25 mph) and down hill was terrifying even at 35,the boat did all the steering.Poor Bama isn't ready to face the reality the rest of us live in.When I posted this info,he called me a liar.
Bama Don't Hate...It makes you ugly.
kip
Bama it's kind of like this: My 600lb 400cc atv will and has pulled a 2000lb auto trailer around a short distance but I don't want to try to pull it down the interstate at 70mph......unless of course I put a supercharger on the atv!! LOL!
ROTFLMAO
Tom