"If I supercharge the mower can I just keep going to the lake???"
Well of course you can! In fact, you can do your State Highway Board a favor and mow the berm while you're blowing down the interstate to your favorite lake!
Gee - I thought that this topic was about towing. We got one Stuporduty (and lemon Lexus) owner and the Chev boys. Not the sharpest knives in the drawer.
KG - the lawnmower is cheaper and is still on its original tranny.(What's that? You say you are on your third tranny? Wow!) I would be willing to bet that it doesn't have piston slap either. Considering that it is higher quality, reliability and built better than that Lemonado of yours, Go for it!
Hilly - The lawnmower engine is more sophisticated. I don't think your Chebby drivetrain could take it. (Warp 9 Scotty! But captain - she won't take it - she's gonna blow) LMAO!
Gee, you can supercharge a Tacoma and STILL have 40% more warranty than the Big2? What are they making them Chebbys out of these days - tin cans?
CATAM - I never have been a fan of surge brakes. Electric is the way to go. I believe that a normally aspirated Tacoma would be underpowered - but then that is not what I am talking about - is it?
"Gee, you can supercharge a Tacoma and STILL have 40% more warranty than the Big2?"
Good. Do any serious towing with it, blown or not, and you'll need that warranty. Given Toyota's stellar customer service reputation you'll need a team of attorneys and a rottweiler to get them to honor it!!
And besides, the main difference between a Toyota pickup and a riding mower or atv is the lack of seatbelts!! LOL! Oh yeah I almost forgot-the brakes on atvs and lawnmowers rarely warp!! LMAO!!
The whining is probably your rotors warping! The sniveling is likely to be your service rep's reaction when you take it in to get 'em fixed. Hope this clears things up for ya old buddy!
Say, have you personally towed anything with your Tundra? Just wondering.
Just a reminder that the Town Hall chat takes place every Wednesday! (5-7pm Pacific/8-10 pm Eastern). Hope you can join us this week, March 27th, when our topic will be:
A supercharger does no good at altitude. This is because the boost level on a supercharger is fixed. If a super charged engine is running 8psi boost at sea level, it will be the same 8psi at 10,000 feet. So you still lose 3% power per 1000 feet. Only a turbo can adjust the boost level. A turbo engine with 8psi boost at sea level might be running 15psi at altitude to compensate for the thin air. I know Saab and Porsche turbo engines can compensate up to 10,000 feet. I am sure the turbo diesels can do the same. A supercharger will do no good at that altitude as you will still be down 30%+ compared to sea level.
ok, i got in on this one a little late, but here are some things i can tell you. Two of my best friends are diesel mechs, I run farm equipment all over the midwest, and I work around farmers about all the time. The Ford guys love their performance IF they have the diesel. the rest can't wait until they manipulate a tax advantage to trade. The Dodge Guys LOVE their diesel IF they have a manual tranny. The rest don't even care about their taxes, they are getting rid of the autos. The chevy guys are fed up altogether with their trucks for reliability concerns. I've driven them all. diesels, gas, manual, auto, the works. Frankly, the quality on the chevy is so poor, I hate when i have to ride or drive one. The Ford is a horse, and if it held up as long as the Dodge, it would be the ONLY horse. The Dodge is by far the best for long term reliability, the ford might edge it out a little for performance. Dodge has a 6spd box now, and it is a lot quieter. Remember my friends who are mechs? they work on them all. They just laugh when you say chevy. They tell me if you want to trade often (every 200k miles) the ford is a bit more comfy and a little easier. I would agree based on my driving. But if you want to go long term, as in i've seen several with a million plus...go with the Dodge. What would I do? I'd give up the gas thing altogether. If you want a real puller, get a diesel. You will most likely end up towing more, at least on occasion, than 3500. Plus, you get the blower on the cummins turbo. That takes care of the science lesson about elevation, etc. The diesel is cheaper to operate, much more reliable, and lasts much longer. And the sound is rather sexy to most girls i've noticed. Pick your options and choose the lowest diff you can get. Get the duals in the rear-they are WELL worth it for stability.
Toyota? PA-LEASE! one of those mechanic buds is the head guy at a toyota, ford, and various other import dealership. toyota is NOT as reliable as they want you to believe. They do a better job of shamming the customer. The F-150 blows the new tundra away in every aspect. And really, do you want to be laughed at driving your little pretend pickup? that would be like wearing tommy hillfiger jeans in a rodeo!
I just thought I would chime in in here. I am a farmer, and am around many people who use and abuse their trucks on a regular basis. The people I know tow up to 40,000 lbs with 3/4 and one ton trucks from the big three. They are all pretty good trucks anymore. The Cummins is the Mother of all diesel engines. Has the most reliability and longevity of the big three, their axles on the Dodges are also excellent. The 6 speed is good, the AUTO is JUNK. The trucks themselves are prone to problems, the worst of the big three, but not far behind.
The Fords are good trucks, the SD is probable the best platform of the three for longevity. The engines are good, but not as good as the Cummins or Duramax. The auto tranny is junk as well, 6 speed ok. By far the roomiest of the three trucks, with the most individual flexibiltiy, but rough ride.
The new GM's with the Duramax are great. But have their flaws as well. My 2002 Duramax has 11,000 flawless miles on her, and has been worked pretty hard. I towed 20,000 lbs the other day at 40 MPH in the country on a trailer without brakes, and had tons of power, and plenty of brakes. The allisons had a few early on bugs, and shifting issues when towing HEAVY at above legal speeds. Frankly, with the 33" tires I am towing 2000 RPMS in 4th gear at 55 MPH, and that is about as fast as I want to run towing anyways, but I have towed 14,000 lbs at 75 on the interstate at 2000 rpms in 5th without downshifting issues at all. The truck has weak sheetmetal on the bed rails and the outside skins, I think the ford and dodge are going this way these days too, they dont make them like the used to in some ways, but way better in otheres. The highest milage Duramax that I know of has about 280,000 miles with most all towing.
Milage is comperable amoung the three with high reports from all three in the low twenties, to low end of 13 depending on the application, I average 18, and averaged 13 out of my 5.3L 1500 for comparrison sake.
The perfect truck would be the Ford F350 with the Allison 5 speed, 4.10 rear Dodge Locker, 285 tires, Cummins engine, Ford Mirrors, GM handleing and ride, LOL.
They are all good trucks, just watch out for weak autos with the first two.
If I were you and didn't mind shifting, I would buy a 2500HD with the 6.0L 5 speed manual 4x4. Great truck, good milage, and plenty of power. Nothing beats a manual in the mountains, although the Allison does come close.
Ya think they'll ever make them thar diesels not sound like a rattle trap and figure out a way to control the foul oder they make? All that smoke belched from a diesel has to produce much more pollution than a gas engine. I don't tow cows or wagons of hay or any of that farm stuff where a diesel is required. I prefer the the big block gas engine and that sweet rumble from the dual exhaust.
"The perfect truck would be the Ford F350 with the Allison 5 speed, 4.10 rear Dodge Locker, 285 tires, Cummins engine, Ford Mirrors, GM handleing and ride, LOL."
I'll go along with everything but the mirrors. My '01.5 Ram has the one's that fold and they get my vote. Fold-in perfect for tight squeezes, fold-down for long-trailers, and back to normal position for empty cruising/shorties. Although I haven't seen too many with that option on the roads. Maybe they cut it for some unknown reason.
I had to buy an automatic and so far (knock, knock, knock) 70K with 80% towing, slight bombing, and no tranny problems. I figured needing to swap at 50K regardless of Ford or Dodge, but so-far I'm impressed. Was going to bomb it even further once I put in an upgraded slush-box, but I'm not doing it until she blows.
I've already told YOU.Only the first year Allison had problems,something I'm still P.O.'d about,but it's still the best A.T. available in any pick-up.The probs with Allison are from putting a medium duty(to 26,000 lb) trans in a electronically controlled pick-up.If I did'nt have a partially paralized left leg I'd buy the 6 spd.(I prefer manual trannys)
The duramax burns CLEAN, no stinch, no stink, no foul looking exaust. Have stuck my nose in the exaust pipe with it running at idle. It does not stink at all like a normal diesel does, and yes I know what a normal one smells like, I live on a farm LOL. She sits in the garage every night I am home, and the woman of the house hates the smell of diesel exaust and has NEVER complained once since I got it. She raised heck that she didn't want that stinky noisy diesel in the garage until I got it. She doesn't mind a bit with the GMC.
I own a diesel, the Duramin is a Diesel, IT WILL STINK!!! It will be NOISY! Add the fact that the duramin is burning oil normally for many owners and you have a built-in mosquito fogger.
Do not go to the dark side - driving a diesel requires a committment to noise and stench. If anyone tells you different, they are lying.
I love it. He trys to quote KG11, and KG promptly responds to tell bama he took things out of context. Ever noticed that bama never quotes actual info sources, he just finds opinions and uses them like facts.
Oh and going back many posts, my point bama, is that even with the surge brakes, the Chevys were very stable going downhill, the Toyotas were not.
The Toyotas both worked great for towing my 4 wheelers. If you plan on towing under 2,000 lbs, I think a Toyota is a great choice. I am actually considering buying a used Tacoma for this very reason. However, I know up front, that if decide to buy another boat down the road, I may need a new tow vehicle.
I'm telling people to buy ford as a first choice,but GM 3/4 ton IS capable of working MUCH HARDER than your 3/8 ton Taco-in-a-dress.
As for being on my third trans and "The fact is:KG got the usual"We know you bought a lemon,but we don't care" Chev B.S." They replaced my ENTIRE TRANSMISSION TWICE for a programming problem in the TCM.There was never any catastrophic failure,I just didn't like the way it shifted.After reflashing the TCM and the ECM ,I've had a trouble free 12,000 mi
Engine knock?You're batting .500 ,not bad for a TROLL.Yeah the knock pisses (can I say that?)me off !I accepted the 100k warranty from GM and I'm TRYING to blow it up before I get to 100,000 mi.
Instead of misquoting people Spama ,why don't you just be happy with the fact that you have a comfortable two seat urban bike hualer,and forget all this"Tundra huals and pours 9 yards of concrete and out accelerates a carrier luanched F-18"
Every weekend I'm surrounded by folks towing 10,000-20,000# to and from sales/shows. I see units in action, convoy with them hundreds of miles, and chat about trucks with other heavy-haulers. You can bag whatever you want, but I'd take a Cummins hooked to an Allison. I don't need to ask KG anything as I'm actually using the vehicles instead of talking about them.
Now if Toyota wants to put together a I6 diesel on a 1-ton chassis with a heavy-duty automatic, I'll take a look-see. I'm looking through a telescope, but just don't see anything like that coming across the pacific. In the mean time, the Allison is probably the best automatic for heavy use unless you're going to tell me the Tundra auto can handle 500-600lb-ft. Besides being a bit sloppy in the secondary roads,I really can't complain much about my Dodge slushbox. It's performed better than my expectations so all's good.
And the Duramax does not stink and rattle like a box of marbles. The '03 Cummins will be even quieter and less toxic so it all just keeps getting better. A diesel under load (even my rather loud cummins) is no where near as obnoxious as a 300lb-ft gasser trying to rev it's brains out to pull a load.
One thing I have noticed is the tendency for the new engines to make their torque and HP higher in the RPM band. On my '94 C3500 the 454 (7.4L) makes its max TQ (385 ft-lbs) @ 1600, and HP 230 @ 2800. Looking at the 5.3, 6.0 and to some extent the 8.1, they seem to really need to wind out to make the power. I guess this is OK, but I would wonder how long an engine will last turning higher RPMs for the same load. I currently have 156K on mine (not easy miles either). I use my truck to tow our gooseneck cattle trailer and haul the tractor on a flatbed. It burns too much gas to use as a daily driver. Anything less than a full load gets hauled by the C1500 (4.3L). I saw an earlier post about the trucks seen hauling loads - here in the part of Texas where I live I see a whole bunch of Dodge/Cummins/NV4500 combo's pulling 32' GN stockers. They make up about half of the trucks I see, with the Ford PowerStroke and Chevy BB trucks evenly split for the rest. We have a large indoor arena in the next county - very popular with the team ropers and barrel racers and other horse show types. They typically have the Ford F350 PS. Of course, they also have more money that I do too! They have to pull large GN horsetrailers with large living quarters ($55,000 and up!). For the 3500# application, the 2500HD with the 6.0L and 6 speed would be ideal. One thing I have learned - You can never have too much truck - but you can easily have way too little. There is more to towing than just the ability to pull it, you have to have the suspension and the brakes to control the load over all types of road conditions. In a steep curve (switchback) the load will tend to push the rear end loose, unless you have the weight to keep the truck planted. My dream puller? I really like the proven Cummins, but Dodge stopped making a real crew cab. I like the Ford F350 P/S, and I have never had any bad luck with GM trucks. I wouldn't mind a Duramax with the ZF 6 speed. The only GM powertrain I have avoided is the rather anemic 6.5L turbodiesel. Do I think that the Japanese can build a HD truck? Yes, the Isuzu diesels have proven themselves in delivery and wrecker applications for years. Maybe that is why GM partnered with them to make their new diesel. I want a TRUE crewcab Dodge, cummins with 6spd and 4:10. Test drive each vehicle and then make your choice. Texas Trucker
You will not get any argument from me about turbodiesels being the best rig for towing at altitude. In fact, I have posted this many times. I can show numerous posts saying that the Ford and Dodge Diesels are the ultimate - IF YOU WANT A DIESEL!!! The fact is - the original poster in this thread said that he DID NOT WANT A DIESEL!!!
That leaves gassers. At 10,000 ft, the gassers will be down 34% in horsepower. They will be struggling to maintain 30mph up a grade.
This leaves superchargers. The only supercharged vehicles with a factory warranty are Toyotas. If you feel that a Tacoma is inadequate for towing 3500lb, fine - get a Tundra. The supercharged Tundra will blow the doors off of any normally aspirated truck AT 10000 ft.
Now, am I saying that the Tundra is the ultimate towing vehicle, NO!!! BUT, for towing 3500lb at 10,000ft, on gasoline - it is.
The V6 supercharger would be OK, but starting May 27, a V8 supercharger with 340horses and 450 ft/lb of torque will be available with a full factory powertrain warranty.
I never stretched the truth - you did. If you read this topic from the start - you will see that I recommended the Ford Lightning. The original poster said that he wanted a 4WD. I guess that rules out Lightnings.
Why don't you lighten up? I wasn't trying to force a diesel on the poor fellow - just saying what *I* would want. I am not disputing what you say about a Tundra being the correct choice for him either - but you seem to only quote HP ratings and supercharger trivia. Do you have any REAL experience towing on a regular basis? You have dug up some data from Trailer Life or other mag where they were provided a test rig from the manufacturer. I am not saying that they couldn't be objective, but it is very impolite to talk bad about a free ride. I have real experience towing on a regular basis. Light loads, heavy loads and a lot in between, and nearly on a daily basis too. In every type of weather. Even my wife (who works on another ranch) pulls trailers at least three times a week. She will be the first one to tell you that the more mass you have IN FRONT of the load, the better the complete rig will handle. I am sure that it (the Toyota) may pull at a higher speed (hence your continous reference to "blowing the doors off" of brand X or Y. But, I am never in a race to get to the top. I pick out my spot in the right lane and let all of the speed-demons go on by. Re-read my post. I suggested the HD2500. I have a friend with a HD2500 CC/SB and he uses it to pull a 16'GN stock trailer all of the time - average weight about 4800#. With the 6.0 and 6 spd it does him well. This is real-world experience. I am sure that others who pull loads can attest to their experiences too, and may favor other brands. I am not a die-hard GM nut, but their trucks are currently serving the purpose for me now. I have owned Dodges and Fords - they all were excellent too. The three Nissan and one Toyota I have owned were adequate for very light duty towing and gave relatively good service. Now flame away if you want. Quote 1/4 mile results. I'll bet most folks (adults) who buy a truck to WORK with don't really care if the other guy is faster. I'll bet your Toyota will smoke my C3500 and C1500, and most certainly my 1/2 ton Suburban! Where did you mount your gooseneck hitch in the bed again?.......Is your Class IV hitch well worn too? Texas Truck -r
Now what do you suppose toymota is putting behind that 450 lb/ft, another taco tranny? I note that your silence is deafening, concerning the long time Edmunds tundra owner/poster has now fragged both differentials trying unsuccessfully to pull his boat up the ramp, and instead his toymota ends up on the tow hook. It's really sad that your bitter jealousy against GM runs so deep you would knowingly recommend a 3/8 pint truck as any kind of a serious towing platform. But as they say, misery loves company. You're miserable, especially since the new S/C tindra has the 4 wheel disc brakes you were rightly cheated out of.
I'm not too concerned, since not one person has agreed with your supercharged advice for taco or tindra, and you only look foolish for trying.
But- your friend did not tow at 10,000 ft. I did not say that it would match the Shakerado at sea level.
Tex, let's face it, he is just towing 3500lb. The Tundra is more than capable. Why get 40% less powertrain warranty, and Yugo build quality by getting a Chev?
A 2500 weighs approximately 6000lb. Add 3500lb trailer and you have a 6L Chev putting out about 200 horses at 10000 ft (34% drop in horsepower) trying to tow 9500lb truck/trailer combination uphill. Not a good situation.
I know you said you are happy towing at 30mph - that is fine, but the original poster said that performance was important to him. I was responding to him, not you.
I personally would not get a diesel, because they are noisy, smelly and much more expensive to purchase and maintain. If I was towing much bigger loads, I would not have a choice.
Thanks! Of course SOME of us already knew that...and some of us have to find out the hard way!! LOL!! And a few will NEVER learn!!
When I put a 600-700lb load in my Chevy 1500's bed I can't even tell it's there when I hit the brakes. Using the logic you posted, my truck's stop distance should increase by about 3 ft while the Tundra with the same 600-700lb load would increase by 7 ft!
Plus I don't have to use the emergency brake when I park my Silverado to keep the brake rotors from warping like ndahi says he does with his Tundra!!
200hp? Especially if you are towing "only" 3500# (*only* 3500# becomes a lot more to worry about in cross winds and switchback curves). I think the tendency is to mistake HP for towing ability. Torque is what you look for when pulling a load on an extended grade. The HP will only be used to get it up to speed while the TQ keeps it there. The early turbodiesels were rated at less than 200 hp and still could perform admirably with a load. Why? Torque. You are right, I did not say that I had experience at 10,000 ft towing with *that* setup (6.0/6spd). That doesn't mean I haven't been over the Donner pass or similar grades. 30 mph? Wasn't me who posted that. 50 is what I usually shoot for when towing over an extended grade. I am still waiting for you to give us examples of when you have personally seen the truck you recommend in a real world towing situation. I made my suggestion after having sat in the passenger seat of that vehicle while pulling on grade (only 3% over 6 miles though). As I have said before, I am not brand loyal, but I also do not dismiss someone elses brand as "Yugo" quality based on my own unadultered love for a certain make. I'll bet most folks tha had purchased a Yugo wished they could get 217K ('86 Suburban), 157K ('94 C3500), or even 77K ('96 C1500) relatively trouble-free miles from their Yugo. The last Ford pickup I owned had over 200K, and my last 3/4 ton ('85 Dodge) was nearly fault free too. Except for the weak spring and several blown head gaskets, my imports did as well too. Any way, how much towing do you routinely do behind your truck? How long are your runs? Bumper pull, weight distributed, GN, 5th wheel setup? Do you use a friction swaybar? How many axles are braked on your application? What trailer length? Weight? Just wonderin'
With the exception of the 4 lane I-70 30 to 35 mph is about the max one would care to drive pulling a 30 ft. trailer.My V-10 Dodge does just fine.Weight is around 10,000 lbs.Any faster than that on the curves at the top of many of the passes and you are driving over your head.
I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone drive faster than is safe for the conditions of the road, visibility, curves, etc. Nevertheless, how about Baker Grade on I-15 in CA? Or I-15 northbound out of Helena MT? Or the pass on Utah 14 (?) just east of Cedar City?
These, and many others, are examples of good roads [OK, so maybe not the one east of Cedar City...;-)] that could safely support higher speeds of towed vehicles, if only the normally aspirated gas engines could hack it. In places like these, driving at 30 mph can be a hazard to other traffic, particularly when someone who is flogging it at 32 mph pulls out to pass someone who can only make 31...
I've had to slam on the brakes more times than I like, just because someone pulled a [non-permissible content removed] and jumped out from behind a semi or another camper.
(I probably just opened myself up for a slam here...)
I'm very familiar with Baker grade and one you didn't mention, the Grapevine.
The 3 big motors I've had(454, 460 and now the V10) have had little problem pulling these hills @55+ towing.(Except when the 454 would overheat)
The 460 was breathed on slightly and would pull a 11' camper and a 26' daycruiser EASILY up these hills.
The difference is I don't think they get quite to 7000' and it's all pretty straight. BTW, I've seen many left lane squatters driving diesels holding me up.
At 10,000 feet with switchbacks and no room to gain momentum I'm sure the turbo diesels would excel. But I agree with spd that top speed isn't really that important.
As TRAILER LIFE reported with the lower HP '99 V109compared to '00) vs. the PSD; it was a dead heat with 7500 pounds to 7000'.
for trying to pass with a 1 or 2 mph speed advantage.Many folks who live at lower elevations don't realize the power loss at altitude.In addition I've seen many of our guests here in Colo.slow way down in an area of spectacular views totally unaware of the people behind them.I don't blame them;They are worth the time to take a look.
is really bad as truckers draft and then make a pass with their 2mph speed advantage.They can really jam things up and cause a lot of frustration if you're on cruse control between 75 and 80.But if those Kenworths just had turbo Toyo motors that wouldn't happen.
There is no substitute for cubic inches.Use the KISS principle;if you want gas motor torque to pull,get the biggest motor you can.Forget the turbos,superchargers and other boosters that give small engines HP.Big inches make Big torque. that's what you pull with and American trucks have the stuff to buy right now.In the future Toyota may provide something that meets these needs.
Once again you are only looking at half of the towing issue. Your supercharged Tundra will no doubt yank a 3,500lb trailer up a grade to 10,000ft with little effort. But, then you have to go DOWNHILL!!!! That seems to be the part you never want to discuss. I have no doubt that your Tundra could outbrake my F-350 from 60-0, but I would love to put my F-350 up against your Tundra anyday on a 5 mile downhill grade at 60 mph with maximum trailer weights behind us, and yes the trailers do have brakes. If you can remember back far enough, I discussed the differences between light duty and heavy duty brakes and their effect on braking distances. Your wimpy "coke can" brakes will be glowing as brightly as Dale Earnhardt's, God rest his soul, brakes entering turn three at Bristol. Give me a break!!!!
I do not recommend this poster getting a 1-ton truck, but he definitely needs more than anything Toyo has to offer.
>I posted that a Tundra with a supercharger is the best gas powered vehicle for towing 3500lb over 10000 ft. Can I hear a response (other than whining) why this is not the best combo?<
No one has agreed with you. No one even has one yet. This is not fantasy league, although to you it is.
As I posted earlier on this thread I do have some experience towing at altitude, (i live in Salt Lake). Here is my first question: Bama, do you have any experience towing with a supercharged Tundra at 10,000 ft??? I'll answer that for you, no you don't. Why?? because said vehicle is not even produced yet.
However this does not stop you from spouting that this is clearly the best tow vehicle.
A little object lesson about the effect altitude has on even supercharged engines. About 2 years ago I was watching the NHRA Mile High Nationals from Denver. The top fuel and funny cars posted winning times of about 5.0 sec and 5.15 sec respectively. These cars are capable of producing times in the 4.5 sec. range at sea level. Lesson to be learned, all internal combustion engines, (diesel, gas, turbo, supercharged, etc.) suffer power loss at altitude.
The point; any of the mentioned engines, (8.1L v8, V10 Ford or Dodge, and yes even (probably, can't say for sure because it doesn't exist) the supercharged 4.7L V8 Tundra; would tow 3500lbs with ease even at 10,000 ft. Which would be the best only way to know would be to do a comparo.
As I mentioned earlier, when towing at altitude, an extra gear ratio or 2, (an 6 spd manual tranny opposed to a 4 spd auto) makes a great deal more difference than 20 HP/ ft-lbs ever would.
I know a guy who owns a 1996 one ton truck with a 10,000 lb fifth wheel. Unfortunately for him his truck is 2WD with an auto tranny. He tried taking the rig up to a camping site one day at around 11,000 ft. This was on a good dirt road, he came to a hill he was unable to climb at all. The truck in first gear just bogged down and died trying to climb the hill. If he had had a manual tranny with a low range 1st gear or a 4wd with low range transfer case he would have easily made the climb, albeit slowly.
When towing at altitude gear ratios are king, There are reasons Semi's have 13 gears to chose from, this is one of the more important reasons. If you're trying to go uphill with 80,000 lbs. you better have the right gearing, you go up slow but you do go up.
I'm re-opening the topics that were shut down this morning and I'm going through them to remove any traces of the personal back and forth that's been going on.
This discussion is about The best power train for towing, let's stick to that. Posts that are off-topic or violate the member agreement will be taken down.
If you're out of Fresno, you've probably been up to Wishon & Courtwright lakes, am I right? I am looking to get a truck that can tow a travel trailer up there; had considered a 24' trailer...BUT. If you've taken this road, you know the switchbacks are tight, and the logging trucks are flying in your lane. At least they were back last time I was there. I guess my question is, what kind of grade is that up towards Shaver? With a lightweight trailer of 5000 GVW (including gear), what's a good truck to get??? Anywhere else I'd go won't be as difficult.
I hope I make sense.I have a concusion and on painkillers.I'm seeing 2 of evrything.
Was there a 4 lane hiway from Prather up to 6 mi from Shaver last time you were there?It's steep but I towed my 4000 boat up it with my tacoma,but omly once(lots of 2nd gear 20mph).A friend towed it with his dodge 1500 w/5.9 and stayed at40-55 all the way.My 8.1 pulls it as fast as you want to go,and pulls my 7000lb cabincruoser at 55 most of the way.
How fast do you want to go? I've seen a lot of 1/2 ton trucks pulling campers like yours( and bigger)up the hill in the right lane,so really they will ALL do it Ford,Chevy, Dodge and even Tundra.
I bought the 2500HD for the bigger brakes as much as the bigger engine.If you get a 1/2 ton pick the one you like the best and watch your sped DOWNHILL.
Wishon and the hills above it is one of my favorite places for backpascking.
Thats what I did but if you're only towing 5000lb occationally and using it as a commuter you can get by with a lot less.Just depends on how you want to spend your $.
Comments
We gotta stop, poor blama will take his ball and go home and not play anymore!!!
Well of course you can! In fact, you can do your State Highway Board a favor and mow the berm while you're blowing down the interstate to your favorite lake!
KG - the lawnmower is cheaper and is still on its original tranny.(What's that? You say you are on your third tranny? Wow!) I would be willing to bet that it doesn't have piston slap either. Considering that it is higher quality, reliability and built better than that Lemonado of yours, Go for it!
Hilly - The lawnmower engine is more sophisticated. I don't think your Chebby drivetrain could take it. (Warp 9 Scotty! But captain - she won't take it - she's gonna blow) LMAO!
Gee, you can supercharge a Tacoma and STILL have 40% more warranty than the Big2? What are they making them Chebbys out of these days - tin cans?
CATAM - I never have been a fan of surge brakes. Electric is the way to go. I believe that a normally aspirated Tacoma would be underpowered - but then that is not what I am talking about - is it?
Good. Do any serious towing with it, blown or not, and you'll need that warranty. Given Toyota's stellar customer service reputation you'll need a team of attorneys and a rottweiler to get them to honor it!!
And besides, the main difference between a Toyota pickup and a riding mower or atv is the lack of seatbelts!! LOL! Oh yeah I almost forgot-the brakes on atvs and lawnmowers rarely warp!! LMAO!!
Say, have you personally towed anything with your Tundra? Just wondering.
Just a reminder that the Town Hall chat takes place every Wednesday! (5-7pm Pacific/8-10 pm Eastern). Hope you can join us this week, March 27th, when our topic will be:
Why My Next Car Will Be A Hybrid
Or will it??
Hope to see you there!
http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/newsviews.html
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
kip
You're asking someone who recomends a Tacoma as an"overkill" tow vehicle ,and has a Tundra WITHOUT warped rotors?
It seems unlikely he's towed a wagon behind his trycicle.
kip
Toyota? PA-LEASE! one of those mechanic buds is the head guy at a toyota, ford, and various other import dealership. toyota is NOT as reliable as they want you to believe. They do a better job of shamming the customer. The F-150 blows the new tundra away in every aspect. And really, do you want to be laughed at driving your little pretend pickup? that would be like wearing tommy hillfiger jeans in a rodeo!
The Fords are good trucks, the SD is probable the best platform of the three for longevity. The engines are good, but not as good as the Cummins or Duramax. The auto tranny is junk as well, 6 speed ok. By far the roomiest of the three trucks, with the most individual flexibiltiy, but rough ride.
The new GM's with the Duramax are great. But have their flaws as well. My 2002 Duramax has 11,000 flawless miles on her, and has been worked pretty hard. I towed 20,000 lbs the other day at 40 MPH in the country on a trailer without brakes, and had tons of power, and plenty of brakes. The allisons had a few early on bugs, and shifting issues when towing HEAVY at above legal speeds. Frankly, with the 33" tires I am towing 2000 RPMS in 4th gear at 55 MPH, and that is about as fast as I want to run towing anyways, but I have towed 14,000 lbs at 75 on the interstate at 2000 rpms in 5th without downshifting issues at all. The truck has weak sheetmetal on the bed rails and the outside skins, I think the ford and dodge are going this way these days too, they dont make them like the used to in some ways, but way better in otheres. The highest milage Duramax that I know of has about 280,000 miles with most all towing.
Milage is comperable amoung the three with high reports from all three in the low twenties, to low end of 13 depending on the application, I average 18, and averaged 13 out of my 5.3L 1500 for comparrison sake.
The perfect truck would be the Ford F350 with the Allison 5 speed, 4.10 rear Dodge Locker, 285 tires, Cummins engine, Ford Mirrors, GM handleing and ride, LOL.
They are all good trucks, just watch out for weak autos with the first two.
If I were you and didn't mind shifting, I would buy a 2500HD with the 6.0L 5 speed manual 4x4. Great truck, good milage, and plenty of power. Nothing beats a manual in the mountains, although the Allison does come close.
Hunter
I'll go along with everything but the mirrors. My '01.5 Ram has the one's that fold and they get my vote. Fold-in perfect for tight squeezes, fold-down for long-trailers, and back to normal position for empty cruising/shorties. Although I haven't seen too many with that option on the roads. Maybe they cut it for some unknown reason.
I had to buy an automatic and so far (knock, knock, knock) 70K with 80% towing, slight bombing, and no tranny problems. I figured needing to swap at 50K regardless of Ford or Dodge, but so-far I'm impressed. Was going to bomb it even further once I put in an upgraded slush-box, but I'm not doing it until she blows.
kg11 Mar 8, 2002 7:24pm
kg11 Mar 12, 2002 6:04pm
kip
Good luck on this one now.
Hunter
Do not go to the dark side - driving a diesel requires a committment to noise and stench. If anyone tells you different, they are lying.
Ever noticed that bama never quotes actual info sources, he just finds opinions and uses them like facts.
Oh and going back many posts, my point bama, is that even with the surge brakes, the Chevys were very stable going downhill, the Toyotas were not.
The Toyotas both worked great for towing my 4 wheelers. If you plan on towing under 2,000 lbs, I think a Toyota is a great choice. I am actually considering buying a used Tacoma for this very reason. However, I know up front, that if decide to buy another boat down the road, I may need a new tow vehicle.
The fact is: KG got the usual "We know you bought a lemon, but we don't care" Chev B.S.
I am sorry that K.G. was caught in the GM marketing lie. The weirdness is that he is telling other lemmings to jump off the cliff with him.
As for being on my third trans and "The fact is:KG got the usual"We know you bought a lemon,but we don't care" Chev B.S."
They replaced my ENTIRE TRANSMISSION TWICE for a programming problem in the TCM.There was never any catastrophic failure,I just didn't like the way it shifted.After reflashing the TCM and the ECM ,I've had a trouble free 12,000 mi
Engine knock?You're batting .500 ,not bad for a TROLL.Yeah the knock pisses (can I say that?)me off !I accepted the 100k warranty from GM and I'm TRYING to blow it up before I get to 100,000 mi.
Instead of misquoting people Spama ,why don't you just be happy with the fact that you have a comfortable two seat urban bike hualer,and forget all this"Tundra huals and pours 9 yards of concrete and out accelerates a carrier luanched F-18"
kip
Now if Toyota wants to put together a I6 diesel on a 1-ton chassis with a heavy-duty automatic, I'll take a look-see. I'm looking through a telescope, but just don't see anything like that coming across the pacific. In the mean time, the Allison is probably the best automatic for heavy use unless you're going to tell me the Tundra auto can handle 500-600lb-ft. Besides being a bit sloppy in the secondary roads,I really can't complain much about my Dodge slushbox. It's performed better than my expectations so all's good.
And the Duramax does not stink and rattle like a box of marbles. The '03 Cummins will be even quieter and less toxic so it all just keeps getting better. A diesel under load (even my rather loud cummins) is no where near as obnoxious as a 300lb-ft gasser trying to rev it's brains out to pull a load.
I saw an earlier post about the trucks seen hauling loads - here in the part of Texas where I live I see a whole bunch of Dodge/Cummins/NV4500 combo's pulling 32' GN stockers. They make up about half of the trucks I see, with the Ford PowerStroke and Chevy BB trucks evenly split for the rest. We have a large indoor arena in the next county - very popular with the team ropers and barrel racers and other horse show types. They typically have the Ford F350 PS. Of course, they also have more money that I do too! They have to pull large GN horsetrailers with large living quarters ($55,000 and up!).
For the 3500# application, the 2500HD with the 6.0L and 6 speed would be ideal. One thing I have learned - You can never have too much truck - but you can easily have way too little. There is more to towing than just the ability to pull it, you have to have the suspension and the brakes to control the load over all types of road conditions. In a steep curve (switchback) the load will tend to push the rear end loose, unless you have the weight to keep the truck planted.
My dream puller? I really like the proven Cummins, but Dodge stopped making a real crew cab. I like the Ford F350 P/S, and I have never had any bad luck with GM trucks. I wouldn't mind a Duramax with the ZF 6 speed. The only GM powertrain I have avoided is the rather anemic 6.5L turbodiesel. Do I think that the Japanese can build a HD truck? Yes, the Isuzu diesels have proven themselves in delivery and wrecker applications for years. Maybe that is why GM partnered with them to make their new diesel.
I want a TRUE crewcab Dodge, cummins with 6spd and 4:10.
Test drive each vehicle and then make your choice.
Texas Trucker
That leaves gassers. At 10,000 ft, the gassers will be down 34% in horsepower. They will be struggling to maintain 30mph up a grade.
This leaves superchargers. The only supercharged vehicles with a factory warranty are Toyotas. If you feel that a Tacoma is inadequate for towing 3500lb, fine - get a Tundra. The supercharged Tundra will blow the doors off of any normally aspirated truck AT 10000 ft.
Now, am I saying that the Tundra is the ultimate towing vehicle, NO!!! BUT, for towing 3500lb at 10,000ft, on gasoline - it is.
The V6 supercharger would be OK, but starting May 27, a V8 supercharger with 340horses and 450 ft/lb of torque will be available with a full factory powertrain warranty.
What about ford's Lightning and Harley trucks with 385 and 360 HP respectivly.
Stretching the truth again?
kip
Geez, KG - lighten up!
I wasn't trying to force a diesel on the poor fellow - just saying what *I* would want.
I am not disputing what you say about a Tundra being the correct choice for him either - but you seem to only quote HP ratings and supercharger trivia. Do you have any REAL experience towing on a regular basis? You have dug up some data from Trailer Life or other mag where they were provided a test rig from the manufacturer. I am not saying that they couldn't be objective, but it is very impolite to talk bad about a free ride.
I have real experience towing on a regular basis. Light loads, heavy loads and a lot in between, and nearly on a daily basis too. In every type of weather. Even my wife (who works on another ranch) pulls trailers at least three times a week. She will be the first one to tell you that the more mass you have IN FRONT of the load, the better the complete rig will handle.
I am sure that it (the Toyota) may pull at a higher speed (hence your continous reference to "blowing the doors off" of brand X or Y. But, I am never in a race to get to the top. I pick out my spot in the right lane and let all of the speed-demons go on by. Re-read my post. I suggested the HD2500. I have a friend with a HD2500 CC/SB and he uses it to pull a 16'GN stock trailer all of the time - average weight about 4800#. With the 6.0 and 6 spd it does him well. This is real-world experience. I am sure that others who pull loads can attest to their experiences too, and may favor other brands. I am not a die-hard GM nut, but their trucks are currently serving the purpose for me now. I have owned Dodges and Fords - they all were excellent too. The three Nissan and one Toyota I have owned were adequate for very light duty towing and gave relatively good service.
Now flame away if you want. Quote 1/4 mile results. I'll bet most folks (adults) who buy a truck to WORK with don't really care if the other guy is faster. I'll bet your Toyota will smoke my C3500 and C1500, and most certainly my 1/2 ton Suburban!
Where did you mount your gooseneck hitch in the bed again?.......Is your Class IV hitch well worn too?
Texas Truck -r
I'm not too concerned, since not one person has agreed with your supercharged advice for taco or tindra, and you only look foolish for trying.
Tex, let's face it, he is just towing 3500lb. The Tundra is more than capable. Why get 40% less powertrain warranty, and Yugo build quality by getting a Chev?
A 2500 weighs approximately 6000lb. Add 3500lb trailer and you have a 6L Chev putting out about 200 horses at 10000 ft (34% drop in horsepower) trying to tow 9500lb truck/trailer combination uphill. Not a good situation.
I know you said you are happy towing at 30mph - that is fine, but the original poster said that performance was important to him. I was responding to him, not you.
I personally would not get a diesel, because they are noisy, smelly and much more expensive to purchase and maintain. If I was towing much bigger loads, I would not have a choice.
Thanks! Of course SOME of us already knew that...and some of us have to find out the hard way!! LOL!! And a few will NEVER learn!!
When I put a 600-700lb load in my Chevy 1500's bed I can't even tell it's there when I hit the brakes. Using the logic you posted, my truck's stop distance should increase by about 3 ft while the Tundra with the same 600-700lb load would increase by 7 ft!
Plus I don't have to use the emergency brake when I park my Silverado to keep the brake rotors from warping like ndahi says he does with his Tundra!!
I think the tendency is to mistake HP for towing ability. Torque is what you look for when pulling a load on an extended grade. The HP will only be used to get it up to speed while the TQ keeps it there.
The early turbodiesels were rated at less than 200 hp and still could perform admirably with a load. Why? Torque.
You are right, I did not say that I had experience at 10,000 ft towing with *that* setup (6.0/6spd). That doesn't mean I haven't been over the Donner pass or similar grades.
30 mph? Wasn't me who posted that. 50 is what I usually shoot for when towing over an extended grade.
I am still waiting for you to give us examples of when you have personally seen the truck you recommend in a real world towing situation. I made my suggestion after having sat in the passenger seat of that vehicle while pulling on grade (only 3% over 6 miles though).
As I have said before, I am not brand loyal, but I also do not dismiss someone elses brand as "Yugo" quality based on my own unadultered love for a certain make. I'll bet most folks tha had purchased a Yugo wished they could get 217K ('86 Suburban), 157K ('94 C3500), or even 77K ('96 C1500) relatively trouble-free miles from their Yugo. The last Ford pickup I owned had over 200K, and my last 3/4 ton ('85 Dodge) was nearly fault free too. Except for the weak spring and several blown head gaskets, my imports did as well too.
Any way, how much towing do you routinely do behind your truck? How long are your runs? Bumper pull, weight distributed, GN, 5th wheel setup? Do you use a friction swaybar? How many axles are braked on your application? What trailer length? Weight?
Just wonderin'
Texas Truck - r
These, and many others, are examples of good roads [OK, so maybe not the one east of Cedar City...;-)] that could safely support higher speeds of towed vehicles, if only the normally aspirated gas engines could hack it. In places like these, driving at 30 mph can be a hazard to other traffic, particularly when someone who is flogging it at 32 mph pulls out to pass someone who can only make 31...
I've had to slam on the brakes more times than I like, just because someone pulled a [non-permissible content removed] and jumped out from behind a semi or another camper.
(I probably just opened myself up for a slam here...)
The 3 big motors I've had(454, 460 and now the V10) have had little problem pulling these hills @55+ towing.(Except when the 454 would overheat)
The 460 was breathed on slightly and would pull a 11' camper and a 26' daycruiser EASILY up these hills.
The difference is I don't think they get quite to 7000' and it's all pretty straight. BTW, I've seen many left lane squatters driving diesels holding me up.
At 10,000 feet with switchbacks and no room to gain momentum I'm sure the turbo diesels would excel. But I agree with spd that top speed isn't really that important.
As TRAILER LIFE reported with the lower HP '99 V109compared to '00) vs. the PSD; it was a dead heat with 7500 pounds to 7000'.
Just a reminder that the Town Hall chat is tonight (5-7pm Pacific/8-10 pm Eastern). Hope you can join us tonight, April 3rd, when our topic will be:
Engine sludge got you down?
Hope to see you there!
http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/newsviews.html
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
I do not recommend this poster getting a 1-ton truck, but he definitely needs more than anything Toyo has to offer.
No one has agreed with you. No one even has one yet. This is not fantasy league, although to you it is.
Here is my first question: Bama, do you have any experience towing with a supercharged Tundra at 10,000 ft???
I'll answer that for you, no you don't. Why?? because said vehicle is not even produced yet.
However this does not stop you from spouting that this is clearly the best tow vehicle.
A little object lesson about the effect altitude has on even supercharged engines.
About 2 years ago I was watching the NHRA Mile High Nationals from Denver. The top fuel and funny cars posted winning times of about 5.0 sec and 5.15 sec respectively.
These cars are capable of producing times in the 4.5 sec. range at sea level.
Lesson to be learned, all internal combustion engines, (diesel, gas, turbo, supercharged, etc.) suffer power loss at altitude.
The point; any of the mentioned engines, (8.1L v8, V10 Ford or Dodge, and yes even (probably, can't say for sure because it doesn't exist) the supercharged 4.7L V8 Tundra; would tow 3500lbs with ease even at 10,000 ft. Which would be the best only way to know would be to do a comparo.
As I mentioned earlier, when towing at altitude, an extra gear ratio or 2, (an 6 spd manual tranny opposed to a 4 spd auto) makes a great deal more difference than 20 HP/ ft-lbs ever would.
I know a guy who owns a 1996 one ton truck with a 10,000 lb fifth wheel. Unfortunately for him his truck is 2WD with an auto tranny.
He tried taking the rig up to a camping site one day at around 11,000 ft. This was on a good dirt road, he came to a hill he was unable to climb at all. The truck in first gear just bogged down and died trying to climb the hill. If he had had a manual tranny with a low range 1st gear or a 4wd with low range transfer case he would have easily made the climb, albeit slowly.
When towing at altitude gear ratios are king, There are reasons Semi's have 13 gears to chose from, this is one of the more important reasons. If you're trying to go uphill with 80,000 lbs. you better have the right gearing, you go up slow but you do go up.
This discussion is about The best power train for towing, let's stick to that. Posts that are off-topic or violate the member agreement will be taken down.
Back to the trucks!
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
Was there a 4 lane hiway from Prather up to 6 mi from Shaver last time you were there?It's steep but I towed my 4000 boat up it with my tacoma,but omly once(lots of 2nd gear 20mph).A friend towed it with his dodge 1500 w/5.9 and stayed at40-55 all the way.My 8.1 pulls it as fast as you want to go,and pulls my 7000lb cabincruoser at 55 most of the way.
How fast do you want to go? I've seen a lot of 1/2 ton trucks pulling campers like yours( and bigger)up the hill in the right lane,so really they will ALL do it Ford,Chevy, Dodge and even Tundra.
I bought the 2500HD for the bigger brakes as much as the bigger engine.If you get a 1/2 ton pick the one you like the best and watch your sped DOWNHILL.
Wishon and the hills above it is one of my favorite places for backpascking.
kip
kip