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  • jblaze13jblaze13 Member Posts: 152
    You are never going to convince the BMW lovers. If someone wants to pay that much more for driving dynamics that are marginally better and probably never to be used let them. Most consumers aren't racing their 3 series or G35 through the slolam and will never notice the ever so slight advantages the 3 series may have. What most consumers will notice is how much more passenger space the G35 has. They will notice how much less money it costs. The G35 is a better "VALUE". The 3 series is a more visually appealing vehicle. Many car magazines had the last generation G35 beating the last generation 3 series as well as other competitors. Check Car and Driver March 2004. It doesn't seem that this generation G35 enjoys such a feat but it is definitely right on the heels of the 3 series. My advice, buy the G35 if you don't need to say you have a bimmer.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    Many car magazines had the last generation G35 beating the last generation 3 series as well as other competitors. Check Car and Driver March 2004.

    Oh... a 325. Gee... swell.

    I'll agree, the G35 is a better value. But let's not go overboard here. Bringing up the 325 in a comparison of current cars is just silly.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • blerner2blerner2 Member Posts: 47
    I've enjoyed all of the lively debate in this thread regarding the G35 vs. 335i. It has been very informative to me, as I have spent the last 2 weeks trying to decide which of these vehicles to lease.

    My question is, would some of you change your "choice" of vehicle, if you were considering the vehicles in a lease scenario vs. purchasing. I ask, as the 335i currently has a much higher residual and lower Money Factor than the G.

    For a 3 yr, 15k/yr lease, the 335i is about $30-40 more per month than the G. I looked at both vehicles farily well contented and ultimately decided on the 335i.

    My choice was the 335i, but my choice may have been different if purchasing.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    Either way, you still have to buy gasoline, and spending 20-25% less could matter. On each of my vehicles last year I spent ~$2K on gas, so $400-500 a year works out to ~$40/month. The Infiniti engine is a lot of things, but fuel efficient isn't one of them. The BMW gets kudos for mileage on a regular basis.

    Sounds like a wash on the two leases when fuel is factored in.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Do you negotiate on the car or is it ifxed price?

    Negotiate. Get the wholesale cost (found at bimmerfest) and then talk to a dealer about a 800-1200 over ED wholesale price. That's his profit. You order the exact car you want and pick the exact day you will pick up the car. They give you a build number so you can check progress online.

    two weeks before pickup, you go in and pay for the car - or sign the lease.

    fly to munich, take 2 trains to the ED delivery center for 8 euro. a guy in a funny suit and sporting a silly accent explains the car to you, you sign some papers and drive out of a narrow doorway and on to either drop the car at the redelivery center or to the autobahn for fun.

    I did this April of 2006. Spent two weeks touring europe in my 330i.

    Next time I'll probably try the quick turnaround - leave sunday, arrive monday, fly home monday. No hotel, barely any food and I'll use frequent flyer miles.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    If someone wants to pay that much more for driving dynamics that are marginally better and probably never to be used let them.

    Never to be used? My god, man. Why even bother with a G35 if you don't drive in a spirited fashion. Get an accord EX and save the 10k.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    two weeks before pickup, you go in and pay for the car - or sign the lease.

    What if I have a car to trade in? Do I have to leave it at the dealer when I pay for the car/sign the lease?

    If I do then that's going to pose a problem since I have to do that 2 weeks before the trip and the car won't arrive until couple months after I drop it off correct?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Nothing is included in BMW's ED. Well, if you count 12-14% savings off MSRP as nothing.

    Why would I want a few nights in a hotel on BMW? I stayed at the Munich Marriott for $50 a night when I did ED. I'll take 5k in savings and suck up the measly $100 I spent on a hotel in Germany for two nights.

    Volvo's program gives you quite a bit. They're trying to move a product that is a salesperson's nightmare.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Never trade a car to a dealer. If you must trade a car - and surrender serious cash - then it's due when you sign. Never heard of someone doing ED and trading in a car but it's probably happened.

    The car will arrive in 4-6 weeks. West coast is 6 weeks. East coast cars sometimes arrive in 3 weeks.
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Everybody's splitting hairs about the costs of these 2 cars as if that's the only separator.

    Having owned both, you can't say (without your tongue in your cheeck) the G has as good fit/finish/feel as the BMW. Period. It doesn't. And that's why the G will always be priced less, because Infiniti can't command the money BMW will easily get.

    The G has power, but is a little rough around the edges and the brakes wear out VERY quick. I do like the new interior tho. BMW has gotten so ubiquitous tho. Still a great choice.
  • jtlajtla Member Posts: 388
    the automatic versions are much more comfortable in the seating dept.

    Could it be that you were comparing the seats between Journey and Sport version of G35? I would think the seats in both Sports versions (auto and 6MT) are the same.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Okay, then that's a problem...

    For ME, since this is my only car, if I opt to do ED 4 years from now I then have to pay for a rental car possibly up to 2 months. Guess what, that's extra money add on to ED + air fare + lodging as well.

    Okay, here the thing, I am not trying to bash on the whole ED concept but just trying to point out that it is really not designed for EVERYONE.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    True. Not for everyone.

    I'm used to living in households with more cars than bodies. Hell, my parents have 5 cars and there's only two of them!

    Plus, I lease. So I schedule the next car to land here before my lease ends. Missed it by 4 days this time.
  • jtlajtla Member Posts: 388
    How about RFT on the 335? From what I read on another board, the bimmer is going to cost much more in the tire department.

    That said, I agree that the price difference between G35 and 335 becomes very little in a leasing scenario, especially doing the ED program. You then factor in the free maintenance and higher resale, I believe BMW comes out on top.
  • bds92bds92 Member Posts: 21
    Think me crazy. But I just don't see the point in buying FWD, an iffy performer and an iffy tractioneer, or messy iDrive.
    To eliminate the other possibilities, which are the 9-3, the C-Class, the CTS, and the IS:
    The CTS and IS are RWD. No good for my climate.
    The C-Class with AWD is far too expensive.
    The 9-3 has been taken over by the Americans, who have a reputation for ruthlessly poorly-made cars.
    Which leaves me with the G35x and the A4 3.2 Quattro, and since the two cars are so wonderful, I would choose the A4 only by a hair, because of the revolutionary AWD system that Quattro has become, compared to the weakling Infiniti AWD system, only available in two of Infiniti's passenger cars.
    Plus, the A4's much nicer looking, if it means anything.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    To eliminate the other possibilities, which are the 9-3, the C-Class, the CTS, and the IS:

    WRONG!!

    Both IS and C-Class offer AWD. Okay I see you know that the C offers AWD but you don't like the price.

    You forgot the 328xi as well. Not sure if BMW would offer AWD on the 335i.
  • jtlajtla Member Posts: 388
    I have three little kids and a wife and I do not think it would be practical for me to fly to Germany to buy a car.

    I have two little kids and a wife, but I am a newly convert to the ED program believer (thanks to blueguydotcom's analysis). True, it cost a lot to bring a family to Europe for travel. But if you are planning on a vacation anyway, then doing ED actually save you money on car rental. Even if you are not planning on Euro vacation any time soon, for your family just think of it as you going on a business trip. Like blueguy's plan, fly to Munich and back the same day, and save about $3k. Not too shabby for a day's work.

    Just my 2 cents.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You eliminated BMW because of idrive, I would eliminate Audi on something more substantial than an interface, their reliability.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I don't think I could lease a G35 for under $475 a month with zero down.

    Has Infiniti finally propped up their leases enough to make that possible?
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    TL is a great choice. Got mine in 05 and love it. :shades:
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "you need to realize that in order for the "will" to occur, Dinan must first agree that their part was defective. If Dinan denies their part is defective, then their warranty will not automatically pay for repairs."

    Dinan's parts are engineered to a standard, just like OE equipment. The "defective" part either meets the standard or not. I suppose anyone could try to dispute their culpability, but Dinan is a long-standing, reputable company. They have more to gain by standing behind their products, and a long tradition of doing so.

    In reality, I think an owner is more likely to get the shaft from BMW than from Dinan. I think the transmission failure scenario I described earlier is a good example of this - if you buy a new BMW and 12,000 miles into ownership, the tranny fails, who pays for the repairs?

    And sarcasm was my intent, thank you.
  • bds92bds92 Member Posts: 21
    Silly me, I overlooked the IS 250 AWD. Which, to be quite honest, is too slow.
  • pv2pv2 Member Posts: 37
    Have to dispute your comments about iffy performance and traction in FWD. I've owned two BMW 328Ci's (1997 & 2000 - with sport and luxury pkgs.) then switched to an Acura CL Type S in 2003 and just bought a 2007 TL Type S. RWD can be marginally better at the limit (which is less than 1% of my driving and likely similar for others). In the NE, snow tires and wheels ($1000+) are essential for winter traction. My CL with all season tires never gave me any concerns; unlike my BMWs, which would either go sideways or at 1 mph with traction control (with summer tires). So for me the performance difference (advantage BMW and Infiniti - drove both recently) doesn't outweigh other factors. As for cost, comparably equipped the 335 is $10-12k more than I paid and the G would be $3-5k more. In addition, the materials in the TL are one or two notches better than either and the reliability is bullet-proof. Absolute performance is overrated unless you're using it a lot of the time. Excellent performance, reliability and all the other toys can be had for less. Different strokes. ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I just have a little while longer until I can go test drive the 2008' Cadillac CTS and join in all the fun and debate which car is best between the 335i vs. 08' CTS vs. G35 vs. TL vs. ? Oops that's about all that's seriously being talked about at this momment. I'm glad this forum went from praise the BMW 335i to having some good car debates about others in the ELLPS segment vs. 335i ;)

    Rocky
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Think me crazy. But I just don't see the point in buying FWD, an iffy performer and an iffy tractioneer, or messy iDrive."

    Ummm, you do know that the E90 3-Series can be had with or without the iDrive system don't you? As such, there's no reason to eliminate the 3er from your list just because of iDrive.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Have I lately said how much I *just love* the 335i? The '08 Caddy will have a long way to go to beat or even meet the 3 series. It'll be the same as last time. More hoopla than substance.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Might as well eliminate the 3 series because of the cupholders.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Might as well eliminate the 3 series because of the cup holders."

    That's funny. Why? Well, it was only a few weeks before I turned my 530i in at lease end that I found out that it even had cup holders (spindly and ridiculous though they were). When I go MiniVan shopping with Mrs. Shipo, I look for cup holders, when I go car shopping with myself, it would never even occur to me to look. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    I tested manual and automatic cars. To get the stick shift, you have to settle for the the uncomfortable seats. It may be that you could choose those seats with an automatic too, but comfortable seats are not available with the stick shift.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Silly me, I overlooked the IS 250 AWD. Which, to be quite honest, is too slow."

    Wow, coming from somebody who is considering a A4 3.2 AWD, that is really an insult. I have been given such an A4 on 2-3 occasions when my car was in for service. Haven't tried the 6-speed manual, but the automatic is a pig in terms of acceleration. And a thirsty one at that - I averaged barely 16 mpg in 250 miles of mixed driving.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    I'll second your choice of the TL. Some of us have those little people running around our houses that kinda look like us, and $43K for a car is pushing it. The TL is feature loaded, offers pretty damn good performance, safety, resale value, electronic gadgets, reliability, and best of all, is priced around $32K for an 07 model.

    I'll take some of that $10K savings and invest in a really nice shotgun to blow my brains out someday when the going gets tough....or better yet pay down the equity line and invest for little ones' education so they, too, can one day blog about meaningless minutia.
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Member Posts: 200
    compared to the weakling Infiniti AWD system

    Have you driven the Infiniti in deep snow, hard pack snow up a hill around corners at speed? If you had you wouldn't make such a foolish statement. The Nissan ATTESA AWD on the Infiniti is rock solid and has a long backround on their legendary super car R33 Skyline GT-R. It works like this: A 16bit microprocessor monitors the cars movements at 100 times per second to sense traction loss. Three G-Sensors mounted underneath the center console feed lateral and longtitudinal inputs into an ECU. The ECU can then direct up to and including 50% of the power to the front wheels. When slip is detected on a wheel, the system directs the torque away from that wheel to one that has traction. Torque is apportioned using a clutch pack center differential, similar to the type employed in the Steyr-Daimler-Puch system in the Porsche 959. This series of clutch packs is contained within the 'transfer case,' which is mounted to the rear of the gearbox.

    Rather than locking the AWD in all the time or having a system that is "all or nothing", the ATTESA E-TS system can apportion different ratios of torque to different wheels as it sees fit. This provides the driver with an AWD vehicle that performs like a rear wheel drive vehicle in perfect conditions and can recover control when conditions aren't as perfect.

    Wow that sounds quite inferior...
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    There is an article that helps to explain how a BMW owner may have problems or denials obtaining warrranty service in the event his Dinan chipped car malfunctions.
    A writer named Mike Miller interviewed Steve Dinan and high level officials at BMW North America concerning warranty claims and problems.

    http://www.dinancars.com/data/fyi.pdf

    http://www.dinancars.com/data/fyi.pdf

    In case the links don't work, the title of the article is: BMW of North America Clarifies New Car Warranties: Some Simple Steps Toward the Center (PDF)

    These guys try to tell you how things are supposed to work. And even if everything works the way they say, there can be disagreements and denials of warranty paid repairs.

    Warranty coverage repair payments are not always guaranteed. If you don't believe the interviewed people in the article, ask owners who have made claims for warranty paid repairs and have been left high and dry.

    BMW clubs and BMW owners message boards are good places to start your investigation if you are interested.
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    take the Dinan and chip discussions elsewhere? It's off topic and annoying to those of us that peruse the forums looking forward to reading comparisons of the ELLPS vehicles and end up seeing this stuff and forced to skip pages just to find a discussion squeezed in.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    It'll be the same as last time. More hoopla than substance.

    You need to really read and take a closer look at the 08' CTS, before making such judgements. I can promise you this isn't the same old General Motors you might otherwise be use to. ;)

    Thankfully the Detroit Autoshow will be here in a few days so you can feast your eyes on perhaps the new "benchmark" in the ELLPS class. It will at least get close ;)

    Rocky
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "even if everything works the way they say, there can be disagreements and denials of warranty paid repairs."

    I don't disagree with you Joe. My point is simply that even on an unmodified car, BMW NA can deny your factory warranty claim.

    What happens to your engine warranty if you change your oil every 5,000 miles instead of the recommended 15,000 miles? What if you use Mobil 1 0W-40?

    If your paint becomes prematurely oxidized during the warranty period, will BMW deny you when they determine that your paint has never been waxed?

    If you blow the tweeter on your left rear speaker after listening to your I-Pod through an FM modulator, can BMW deny you?

    Joe, I can think of a thousand things (the list is endless, really) that BMW could theoretically raise a stink about. How are any of these scenarios different than installing a Dinan chip?
  • jtlajtla Member Posts: 388
    I don't think I could lease a G35 for under $475 a month with zero down.

    Has Infiniti finally propped up their leases enough to make that possible?


    Infiniti's recent promotion excludes the new G sedan, although it does include the coupe. Most 2007 G35 sedan lease posted on the G35 board were still in the mid $500. So far, the best deal I saw was $469 per month with $833 OTD (which I assume is for 1st month plus DMV fees) for the Journey. Unsurprisingly, that deal was in So. Cal.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    To both of you: it's time to let go of this chip/warranty conversation.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    no need to resort to bashing cars. It was merely a question and an example. I wasn't comparing anything.

    volvomax would certainly disagree with your assessment from a salesperson's perspective, by the way.

    In any case, what I later thought of was the fact that, while volvo offers you the trip included, I don't believe their ED discount is as great as BMW's. So its probably close to a wash. It's often that one can get close to or even lower than ED pricing at a volvo store, while the same can not be said of BMW.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    From my research of Volvo, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche European Delivery programs, the thing that appears to set BMW apart from Volvo and Mercedes is that the ED prices can be further negotiated. If you are comparing list ED prices to actual discounted US prices on certain models, the ED doesn't appear to save you that much on BMW, Volvo and Mercedes. But getting another 4-5% whacked off the ED price makes the savings much more substantial on BMW. I tried that on Volvo when were considering the XC90 V8 and got nowhere. Same with Mercedes.

    Porsche is in a league of their own. They charge you MORE for the privaledge of picking the car up at the factory. And yet I know of several enthusiasts who have done it multiple times.

    I would be hard pressed to buy a new BMW in the US knowing what I found out about ED. Unfortunately, the discounting doesn't apply to the M3 or M5. But the savings on a 550i 6-speed would bring it to pennies more than a 530i in the US.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    In terms of value, the TL is hard to beat, the sound system alone is amazing. :shades:
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I feel confident expressing my opinion of Volvo. We have one. - an S80 It's a rolling pile of junk that so surpasses my BMW and VW experience that only one prior ownership experience comes to mind when I think about it: Ford.

    At 16 I bought an 83 Ford EXP as my first car. Two years of repairing that thing every weekend convinced me to never buy American again. Our Volvo is the same way - turn it on and something new breaks.

    If I opt for a VW GTI instead of another BMW in 08, I feel confident that it can't be nearly as awful as my American/Volvo experiences. I had the high expectations of Japanese makes when I moved to German cars but I had totally forgotten how bad American cars can be. I've been reminded. German's make fun but not great cars. Japanese make great but not fun cars. And the americans/volvo - they make cars.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I think my TL is a ton of fun, it's very fast and corners great, although not as good a bmw.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    it just gets tiring when every little question/comment has to be turned into bashing/pissing contest. That's all.

    I have my experiences with both brands, too. I just didn't feel it at all necessary to bring it up when talking ED.

    let's move on.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Sorry. I suffer from strong opinions. :)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Well, I for one never noticed that! :P
  • sprinkler13sprinkler13 Member Posts: 455
    Also, don't forget that it still isn't true apples to apples. I am a big fan of the BMW, but to load up a Bimmer with the same exact feature and gadgets you still need to add satellite radio ($500), comfort package ($500), heated seats ($500), and should you want or need the pass thru in the back seat you need to either add split folding seats or get the cold weather package which has the heated seats, ski pass thru, and I think headlamp washers.
  • dafreak1dafreak1 Member Posts: 61
    After seeing a 335i coupe on the road last night I want one! It was very nice looking. So, I go home, run the numbers, options etc. and I am back to square one, the G35x. It can not be beat as far as what you get for the money. Granted many of you dont want all the options that a 40K loaded G35 offers but even the base is still 10K less then the base 335i. I want to justify it, I have tried to justify it, but I just can not do it. If there were a 335xi coupe on the market I might be persuaded but from what I hear that is going to to start around 42K-base! I sure wish BMW was about 5K less instead of the 10K, it would be a much easier decision.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I thought the heated seats come with the Luxury Package. Yes/No?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    First of all, the 335i coupe is a BEAUTY, hands down!!! I wish I could say the same about its interior... The sedan, on the other hand, isn't all that attractive.

    dafreak, I don't think the 335i, sedan nor coupe, comes with AWD yet according to www.bmwusa.com. However, the lower trim 328i does. I don't know what's BMW's plan for an AWD 335i, is there going to be a 335xi in the future?

    At this point, I am done trying to justify whether the Bimmer worth the premium or not. If you must have a BMW (or really like the BMW) then I say you should just make peace with yourself and pay the extra bucks. Because if you don't you could easily have buyer's remorse afterward. For me, $10K is definitely not worth it, not even $5K.
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