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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 3,062
    Check out for answers. Zaino is a car polish system. It is safe and will not void a paint warranty. As, unless I'm wrong, there is no warranty just for paint... :confuse:
    Great stuff, especially for darker colors.

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    It's time to get back to the cars, folks.

    Those who are interested can continue the Zaino conversation at that link; The Future Of The Manual Transmission will probably be of interest to a number of you and other off-topic subjects such as card-counting in blackjack need another forum altogether.

  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "Handling: Definitely not
    Gas efficiency: Definitely not
    Ride: No
    Room: Definitely not

    Wow... when did you get your test drive? Any more details you could pass on? Why did you not like the ride? Did you mean too little room in the back or the front?
    Oh wait, maybe you didn't actually drive the car. Maybe you are just talking out of your *** and do not have any actual emphirical data."

    Haha, before you get bent all out of shape, you do realize that all posts here, positive or negative, are just speculation, specs derivation, and reviews derivation. In fact, we have 4473 posts of speculation. I would think that this would be assumed.

    I also made "speculative" comments that were very favorable to the IS350, yet you didn't have any beef about that or copy/paste that. I guess if it's something positive about the IS, you're fine with it, but if it's negative, God forbid . . .

    By the way, I stand by my comments. ZERO reviews so far have said that the IS350 sets the class standard in handling. We KNOW that the IS350 has less room than the G35, TL and even the 330i. And I will give you a COOKIE if the IS350 has better mileage than the 330i.

    The only thing maybe that I might change my mind about is the "ride" component. ;)
  • "Handling: Definitely not
    Gas efficiency: Definitely not
    Ride: No
    Room: Definitely not"

    Don't know how anyone can say "definately not" without test driving (or at least seeing) a car... Sure, this forum has a lot of speculation, I just find it strange that so many Beemer cult members are taking shots at the new IS if it is not "real" competition to the 3 series...why even bother to acknowledge such a lowly vehicle?
    In the final analysis, the sales numbers will be all that counts...and I think the IS will be very successful.

    So, if your mind is made up, here is a review of the 3 series to confirm your admiration for the handling. When you get past the handling aspects, consider the other traits/overall quality of the car... enjoy
  • odessitodessit Posts: 140
    Sorry for poor choice of words. I meant Rust Perforation Warranty (12 years).
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 3,062
    No, a wax or polish shouldn't affect the Rust Perf. Warranty (another reason not to buy "rust proofing" from the dealer!).

    I think C and D has a history of forgiving (overlooking) build and reliability flaws for cars that they love to drive. As its recent 50 year anniversary issue has pointed out, the mag basically started as an ode to British sports cars back in the '50s. And, as history has shown, we all know how reliable and well built British cars were! But they loved the driving experience, and that was the thrust of the relationship.

    C and D noted the imperfections, and because of their respect for the marque, downplayed it as far as rating the new 3. IMHO, of course. What a cool comparo, there's a car there for everyone!

    Another thought: BMW has been building BMWs for a long time. Acura, Lexus and Infiniti have been building "BMWs" for, what, five years? Give 'em a bit more time and who knows? The real winner? You and me, folks!!! :D

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    are not "hype" - we all have different priorities and we are all entitled to them. Everyone here needs to recognize that someone else's priority is just as important to them as your own is to you, and NEITHER of you are right nor are you wrong.

    Some of you folks need to calm down and stop making this so personal. The cars are what they are and we make the choices we make to suit ourselves and not each other.

    We are here to compare the features of the cars in this class - not to beat each other over the head about our preferences and our choices.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 57,852
    "It was a 212-212 tie with the IS350"

    I have the October issue in my hands.... and the BMW outpointed the IS350 by 213-212.

    Page 112, if it matters...

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  • "Acura, Lexus and Infiniti have been building "BMWs" for, what, five years?"

    Honda, Toyota and Nissan have been trying to build "BMWs" for a lot longer than that.

    "And since the IS350 is the fastest naturaly aspirated V6 sedan out there, this can be easily defeated by BMW or Infiniti ??? Which BMW would this be ?"

    It's not a "V", but it's called the M3.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "AWD: is not class important, just more hype from east-coasters, we in the left coast don't give a hoot about AWD."

    It may not be a priority on the west coast, but for some folks on the east it is. The snowy east coast is a huge market that can't be ignored. And if one looks around at the cars on the road the number of AWD drive cars is huge, not a small miniscule percentage.

    "Ride and Handling: The Bimmer is good in this area, but skimps mightily in other areas."

    I agree with that. However, the reason I like BMWs is for what they *don't* put in a car in terms of luxo-items. I don't need Lexus-branded luxury nor do I want it. I find the cockpit of the 3 series to be very calming and reassuring.

    "But the fact that the 330i HAD a mechanical issue should have automatically been factored into the comparo,"

    The fact it had a mechanical issue has no bearing on the way the car was designed to ride and drive and does ride and drive. IMO this is what they are measuring. Truth-in-disclosure they didn't hide it under the rug. The reader can form any opinion they want on the mechanical issue.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "And since the IS350 is the fastest naturaly aspirated V6"'

    That statement is true for now. However, slightly OT, the BMW 3.2 liter I6 is the engine to beat in the naturally aspirated class. The base M3 which is a few thousand more (at $50K) than the 350 and 330i will obliterate the cars in this segment.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    So, if your mind is made up, here is a review of the 3 series to confirm your admiration for the handling. When you get past the handling aspects, consider the other traits/overall quality of the car... enjoy

    Interesting, thought, that they gave the 3-Series "5 out of 5 Star" in Performance, Ride, and Handling. (4 out of 5 in Desirability and 2 out of 5 in Deisgn, both of which are entirely subjective categories.) Sound like they really liked the 3-Series, except for the styling.... Not sure how this backs up your point!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    As blueguy so humorously pointed out, unless you like to look at your reflection in passing buildings, one lives/drives in the interior. I really think reviewers ought to stick to the task of evaluating a car from a form/function perspective and leave the styling/desireability ratings out of the picture. I don't need someone else to tell me if a car is beautiful or ugly.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    What is subjective about having an electrical relay in the rain gutter of the front windshield?

    Do you know why it's there? Why is there even an issue unless this car was abused or crashed and a part became loose. If not it's under warranty for 4y/50K.

    What is subjective about being charged more for "keyless" ignition that is really keyless?

    You don't have to buy the car, if you don't like the vehicle options.

    What is subjective about the maintenance issues plaguing these expensive cars?

    Yes I agree. For the hundreds of thousands of BMWs out there, there will be some problems. No car is immune, the G35 has certainly had it's share as well. And let's not even talk about the Toyota/Lexus sludge and tranny issues. The BMW also has a B-B 4yr/50K free maintenance program along with the warranty.

    My point, as it has always been, is that these cars should be considered from A to Z (as a total package). If reliability is not apparent, how can "best in class" even be on the radar?

    Who said reliability is not apparent? Because a test car had a malfunction? That's like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    Wait, don't tell me, it handles well!

    It handles like it's on rails and it's selling like hotcakes.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    I've done some heavy cleaning here. I'm not sure that I've gotten every grimy detail, But I've given it a good shot.

    Let's see if the rest of you can help keep things neat and tidy around here ...

    We'll try again and I hope and trust that those who want this discussion to remain viable will all pitch in.

  • aaarghaaargh Posts: 230
    All the talk on this forum seems to be about BMW, Infiniti, Lexus and Acura. Why is nobody talking about the Mercedes and Cadillac? Are they that far out of this segment (quality, features, cost, etc...)???.
  • MB and Caddy are pretty much not players in this segment in my experience. Neither car is very nice, handles very well or installs much confidence in their quality.

    I'd take a Bimmer, Infiniti, Audi, Acura, Lexus before I'd even touch a Caddy at 50% off msrp.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 3,062
    While I've read that the CTS offers a decent driving experience, the exterior/interior style and quality of interior materials is so off-putting it never occurred to me to seriously shop it against the front-runners here. The entry level MBs have never seemed to be too exciting a driving experience (save for AMG models and they ain't priced entry level anything...) nor a good value. And, yes, there is a poor perception regarding GM and MB quality I've heard rumored... ;)

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    laurasdada - I disagree about the CTS, I didn't test drive the V model. But the driving experience and amenities were excellent. Loved the interior.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 3,062
    I haven't driven the CTS, but have checked it out extensively at the Auto Show. I really thought the interior was low rent, typical GM. I was truly surprised, especially given the $40k window sticker. The exterior is a basically handsome shape ruined by extra lines and layers. MHO, of course... And I believe it is selling well so GM may not be too concerned with MHO!

    My Dad loved driving his Catera, when it wasn't in the shop. Which, unfortunately it was... a lot. He traded up to an '04 TL. He's MUCH happier! :)

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I found the interior of the CTS to be plush without being annoying or distracting. I'm guessing the car you saw at the auto show and the car I looked at had different interiors. Forgetting about the Catera for a moment, the CTS and also in general the Caddy line-up have decent interiors.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Why is nobody talking about the Mercedes and Cadillac?

    Excellent question! It appears attending forum members are not so keen about the above marques (myself included).

    What surprises me most is the lack of interest in Audi. The Audi A3 is one great performance vehicle(especially the upcoming 3.2FSI Quattro version). I guess to each their own!
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 3,062
    Hmmm. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. Actually, Bob Lutz had a great quote about the CTS interior. To paraphrase, he said, "We actually used very expensive materials in the CTS interior. We just made them look cheap!" It was in an issue of AutoWeek this summer. Perception is reality...!

    The STS interior is better, but it does cost a bit more. Compared to their peers, well, Caddy needs to borrow a Lexus designer and materials buyer...

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    I think MBs are great looking cars, but I can't overlook the reliability problems. I thought the MB C230 handled great, but again, if it's in the shop all the time what fun is. :cry:

    I agree, I would take those cars over a Caddy any day too, although the Caddy got some great reviews.
  • Dead last in this segment. The thing dipped and swayed in corners. It was maddeningly the point of feeling like it was designed for an entirely different segment.

    The rest of the cars in this group track correctly and without drama in corners. To say I loathed my experience in the CTS would be a gross understatement. Wretched, wretched car. Worst salesperson I've encountered in years. Guy scoffed when I said I wanted to drive a manual. he kept asking how i liked it and when I was honest, placing it far below the competition posed by the G, A4, 3 series he would always offer the same answer, "Ah, but those aren't cadillacs." What does that mean? Should
    I be impressed by a company name?!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    My bad,

    pardon my last post. With great insight I just determined that a A3 is an inappropriate topic for a sedan forum. :sick:
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Hmmm, inappropriate though it may be, I'm coming out of three consecutive sedans and I'm looking at virtually all of the cars covered by this topic including the A3.

    Best Regards,
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    there's no reason to completely eliminate talk about sedan competitors that are not techincally "sedans" such as the A3. The lines between body styles get blurrier and blurrier. We shouldn't get too caught up in vehicles that aren't strictly our subject, but some side comparisons are fine. :-)
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Check this out. 3&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=389451&bmUID=1126202086364

    Not surprising at all. As I've always maintained, most cars do worse than EPA in the city and better than EPA on the highway.

    Also, real world mileage of BMWs (as with most other manufacturers) aren't anything to call home about.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Well thanks for the clarification about this topic!

    Audi A3 vs. Audi A4 Avant?

    Cant imagine why anybody would buy the more expensive A4, when the A3 is the better performer and handler. In addition A3 interior space is almost equivalent to the A4 Avant ! Another advantage for most North Americans who do not like manual is that the A3 t has DSG---an option that is unavailable in the current A4 .(personally I prefer manual myself).
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