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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    Now if they could figure out how to get 250hp out of the engine

    and mileage better than the mid-size SUVs i referred to earlier. ;b

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    ...handling alone does not performance make.

    Yeah but it's thee most important part of performance in my book. I will sacrifice a LOT in power to get a car that is superior when doing the twist.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    They'd be MUCH faster if they were 500 lbs lighter. And handle far better.

    As for safer and roomier...uh I don't care. My car could have a 1 star crash rating. Really makes no difference in my selection. And as for roomier - my e46 was too big. The e90 is so massive I really can't understand how BMW can declare this Buick-like boat an entry level sedan. The thing needs flashing back up lights and a dumptruck beeper when in reverse.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The IS-F will be an AMG from toyota. It's not gonna be an RS or an M car. Not when you consider toyota's current offering. You don't take a lamb and turn it into a lion.
  • jblaze13jblaze13 Member Posts: 152
    They were comparing both previous generation vehicles to each other. Maybe its silly to you but the 325 was underpowered and still cost as much. That was the point.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    i'm well aware of the point of the article. But I still don't see how comparing to the base engine makes the G a "3-series beater." Your post was quite misleading. 325-beater, yes, 3-series beater, no.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    that's fine. And I'm with you, to an extent. I'd still prefer not to be beat out by mom's grocery getter from a stoplight, though. I don't travel on very many twisty canyon roads ... come to think of it, i travel on NO twisty canyon roads.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    I was only meaning the IS 250 and the Saab from the above list.
    The IS 350 does not come with a manual transmission. I am most interested in a sports/luxury sedan that does.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Is the luxury that is missing in the Speed6 subjective only? Or are there some luxury items you think should be available that are not?
    Seems pretty luxurious to me and is certainly a good performer. And a bargain.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    We've been over this before many times, you can do a search on the previous posts. Other models also mentioned are Volvo S60, VW Passat and Subaru Legacy. I could have left out a few.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    I'm not wondering about them, only the MazdaSpeed 6 and what you think its luxury deficiencies are. Subjective I'm guessing, so never mind.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    volvo was agreed to as being included, AFAIK. But, yeah, i remember discussion about the Legacy and also the 300 most recently, i believe.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    we've had discussions about setting objective parameters. just read back and your questions will probably be answered.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "I do typically stick to my purchases longer but the TL in my mind it is a dog, a dog I no longer want."

    Do you test drive cars, or just pop in to the dealer and say "I'll take one of those?".

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but when I was sedna shopping in early 2004, I narrowed my choice down to a 330i ZHP, TL and G35, all in 6-speed form. I really wanted to like the G35, since I was coming out of a 1995 Nissan Maxima SE that gave me 150k trouble free miles. The G35 was a dissapointment. Power was comparable to the TL, but the engine was rougher under hard acceleration. Even more so than my 9 year old Maxima. I also thought I'd prefer the G35's RWD setup, but it didn't handle appreciably better than the TL, it's steering was more vague. The gershift was the biggest dissapointement - well behind the snick-snick shifting of both the 330i and TL 6-speeds.

    I understand the new G35 has a lot of cosmetic improvemetns. I hope they also addressed my mechanical concerns. It wasn't a bad car - not a "dog" - but just very rough around the edges.

    P.S. I hope you aren't going to tell me that any of the cars you had or are considering are automatics. If they are, you have no standing to call anything a dog. ;)
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    "We mention it because in a straightline the 335i takes the IS350."

    That's exactly my point. When the IS350 first came out it set the "benchmark" for hp in this class and "driving enthusiasts" heckled Lexus fans about straightline performance.

    Since then, BMW (& Infiniti) caught on that- hey- maybe we will lose market share since not every 3 series buyer/lessee tracks their car or drives like an 18 y.o.
    Now, BMW is back on top leading the hp war (IMHO) and 3er fans are drooling over themselves not only because of the bragging rights but also because it is a viable alternative to the current M3.

    That said, I'm a TL owner with hopes that Acura will become competitive in the market again and offer something with equivalent hp and torque.

    Not everyone buys these cars for what you and other "enthusiasts" buy/lease them for. You get to vote with your $$ and I'll vote with mine.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Well, that sure cleared things up for me. I just re-read every post mentioning the MazdaSpeed 6 in the ELLPS board.

    Here's what I've learned:
    Many people in here do not even know what a Speed 6 is and how it differs from a regular Mazda 6.
    There are no stated objective deficiencies that would keep the Speed 6 from having a well deserved spot in ELLPS.
    The ELLPS objective parameters do not have much to do with luxury or performance or MSRP, but apparently how the car sounds and feels to a particular poster.
    The (objective?) parameters have everything to do with the brand name of the vehicle and whether that brand name is normally thought of as a luxury carmaker and whether the nameplate has snob appeal.

    Yeah, I think I get it now.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    you obviously didn't read (or even search for what we suggested you search for) and just feel like venting, so i'm not addressing this any more.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    joe,

    look at post 6900. IMHO the S6 is a very capable sedan but does not belong here.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    thanks for doing the legwork, ggesq.

    i'd also suggest to read a couple of the subsequent pages to that post.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Agreed.

    Honestly, the more I drive my e90 the less likely I am to buy a 335i in 2008. The massive interior, total tonnage of the car and the cocooned/removed feeling is just too luxury/Buicky for me. I feel like I'm driving a faster, manual version of my grandfather's 1990s Park Avenue.

    My ZHP was an outlier and it's becoming clear to me the entry level lux world has grown a tad too big and marshmallowy for my tastes/driving style/needs.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Sounds like you need an M...although the weight thing will be there, the feeling you are reminiscing on might make it for you. This will not be your grand pappy's PA.

    Regards,
    OW
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I think what blue need is the 1-series. Or simply just move to Europe. :P
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    Just because a car has leather and a sunroof does not mean it is a entry level luxury performance sedan. One, the Mazdaspeed6 is not Mazda's entry level sedan, that would be the Mazda3. The luxury part comes from the prestige that is associated with the make of the car. Mazda is not a luxury car make. Lastly, the Mazdaspeed6 is clearly a performance car but since it misses out on the other two requirements it does not fit in here. With discounts, the Mazdaspeed6 is a great buy but is not similar to a 3 series or an an IS.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Wrong.
    I did read every post. And I do not feel like venting.
    But, I did just notice something. This thread is OLD! Started in March of 2002 I guess. Back then there was no Mazdaspeed 6. So how could it have been included in the original list of possible ELLPS cars?
    I'll assume that the list has not changed since that first post back in 2002. And, if that is the case, I understand why the MazdaSpeed 6 cannot be included since it has only been available to buyers for 3 years, and not back to March of 2002.
    However, if this discussion has evolved to include other cars also not available in March of 2002, then I cannot understand why the Speed 6 is not a contender since it objectively possesses the luxury, performance, size and MSRP to qualify as an ELLPS.
    Except for that luxury nameplate / subjective snob appeal thing, it surely should be.
    That is not necessarily a bad thing, snob appeal. So why deny it is the deciding factor?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I'll assume that the list has not changed since that first post back in 2002

    Dude, look at the list closer again this time. I see IS 250/350 included in the list and if my memory serves me right back in 2002 there are NO IS250/350s. Clearly the list is being updated constantly.

    I seriously think the "Luxury" in ELLPS means the sedan is from a luxury brand instead of how many luxury amenities the sedan offers. We've been over about which brands are considered as luxury brand before so I wouldn't repeat that again. However, Mazda in my best knowledge is not included as one.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Oh, so to be an ELLPS, the car has to be based on the least expensive model that a particular car line sells? No one ever told me that!
    I just assumed that entry level meant the beginning ranks of the luxury performance car segment, regardless of what the cheapest car of a certain nameplate offers.
    Everyone agree with that point robbieg makes?
    And are all the other cars in the list based on the cheapest model?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    So are you saying the list of cars up near the top of the page in ELLPS has changed in this thread over the years?
    If so, that only tends to support my objections.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Is Acura's cheapest sedan a TL? I thought they made a cheaper one in 2002. I could be wrong on that. And how about all the other cars on the list? Are they all based on the cheapest sedan offered?
    So what's the TL doing on the list of ELLPS ?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Since the list of cars in ELLPS is obviously evolving, it seems like going over the requirements to determine worthy participants would be necessary when newer models become available.
    And how would a newer car be added to the list anyway? Does it need to be approved only by the originator of the thread? That would be cybersol, right?
    Or is this a mob-ruled democracy? We just vote on it?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    You say, "...Clearly the list is being updated constantly..."

    And my question is by whom is it being constantly updated?

    And if it is constant updating, why the reluctance to consider other cars? Or is that just an invalid perception I have?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    And if they put that RDX 2.4 turbo in it, I'd be interested in the TSX.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The hosts update the list. They consider other cars and make changes accordingly. The market hasn't changed much lately.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    I wonder if the hosts just add cars to the list on their own, or if they read the posts and consider them before adding a car.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    "They" read posts and evaluate whether a nomination fits. The Mazdaspeed6 does not. One very important criterion is that the manufacturer be a luxury brand.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The hosts interact with us, Joe. Pat popped up a bit ago to tell everyone to cool it on the chip/warranty stuff.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Heh, you can rest your case, right? :P
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Hey Pat!
    If you really are the judge here, how come an entry level luxury performance sedan has to display a luxury nameplate?
    There are only a very few, but lacking a fancy brand name, if a car is loaded with luxury equipment, is powerful and very fast, has great handling, is good looking and in the right size and MSRP ballpark, why can't it be added to your list?

    I'm talking about a car that has similar or better equipment and performance compared to the ones already on the list.

    p.s.
    While I have your attention, what did you mean in your post 6900 where you typed, "...Lincoln is not a luxury brand and doesn't belong here..."
    Where did you ever get the idea Lincoln is not a luxury brand?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    About the Lincoln, I acknowledged that mistake after that post, I'm sure if you kept reading you saw that. I will assume that your question about why an entry level luxury performance sedan should be produced by a luxury manufacturer to be rhetorical.

    Please feel free to create a comparo that suits you if this one does not.

    Meanwhile, let's move on.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    More than willing to move on here, but no tongue in my cheek.
    If a car has all those attributes, why not include it even if it is made by a brand that doesn't produce any other luxurious cars but the one?
    What's the harm?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    No, mine was not a rhetorical question, and has never really been answered.
    A comparo I'd propose would likely be shot down as being a near duplicate of this one, with the exception of adding the MazdaSpeed 6 as a contender.
    This is a good thread and is an evolving one which has had cars added.
    That's why I don't want to create a new one.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Hey Joe, why don't you create a new discussion with the title being: All Boarder Line Candidates Left Out of the ELLPS Board. I am pretty sure some of us will be glad to join you there.
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    ROFLMAO !!!!
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Give it up, Joe.

    Mazda does not belong here because, unfortunately, no matter how well you personally think the Speed 6 stacks up against a 335i and IS350 on paper, hardly anybody in the car buying public would consider it remotely close to the same league as the other ELLPS here. That's based upon everything from brand image to build quality to fit and finish, to style, to overall performance / driving dynamics to resale value.

    I would put Mazda ahead of Kia and Hyundai (barely), but behind Nissan and VW and way, way, way behind Toyota and Honda. And none of those other brands are being considered in this ELLPS forum, either.

    If you don't believe me, just look at 3-4 year old Mazda resale values. They are horrific compared to the ELLPS brands, as well as Honda and Toyota. They are barely above Ford, which is to say, barely above "abysmal". That alone should tell you all you need to know why it doesn't qualify.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's just get back to our subject and not worry about the vehicles that are not in this class. :)

    By the way - happy new year to everyone!
  • tpjcourtneytpjcourtney Member Posts: 34
    a Mazdaspeed 6 to reply to this thread? ;)

    I have to tell you that it is hard for me to believe there is a better sedan in this segment right now than my 335i. I do wish there wasn't 6-8" of snow on the ground here now so I could enjoy it, but I probably would be out driving if there wasn't.

    Living at 6000ft, I can not believe the power of this car as compared to my old 98 M3 sedan. In top gear the car has good pull from as low as 35-40 mph. I am still in the breakin period, so no full throttle test, but it has been hard to keep it under 4500rpm.

    I am really happy with the clutch effort, very light and easy to drive smoothly. I did order a shorter BMW shift knob, as I felt the original was a bit tall. Being a little more than 1" shorter made a welcome difference.

    Steering is well weighted on my spt pkg equiped car and the steering wheel is the best I've ever had my hands on. Good diameter, very thick rim, slightly tacky leather and thumb rests at 10 & 2.

    The sport seats, mine in Lemon Leather, are incredible. The things I really like about these are the extendable thigh support which I had on the M3, and the power adjustable back bolsters. As an autoxer and sometimes track attendee, it is nice to have seats that can go from comfortably holding you in to agressive track seats at the push of a button. At 6'2", I really wish more cars had adjustable thigh support.

    The couple minor things to complain about for me are...
    1. I have polarized sunglasses and I can't read the radio display with them on. Kind of irritating, but I can lift my chin and look under the glasses to see. I will say that the 13 speaker, Logic 7 system does an excellent job of drowning out any negitive thoughts I have about the stereo.
    2. The lack of LSD will probably be a challenge at the track/autox. Trying to put down 300hp & 300ft/lb on a tight turn with all the traction control gizmos off will probably have me burning a little more rubber than I like.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I've agreed with you before and will keep on agreeing with you... Cars are way too heavy!

    About the dropping the 2.4L Turbo from the RDX into the TSX. I'd like to see it happen. There's one problem, torque steer. How will the counteract torque steer? Add SH-AWD? That adds weight.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Ok. Hope to see you all there.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    I agree that Toyota, Honda, Kia and Hyundai have no car that would be suitable for inclusion in ELLPS.
    And what does high resale values have to do with luxury or performance? Nothing really, although they may coexist in the same car. Resale values is not abbreviated in ELLPS, right?
    But as I said before, I do understand that this is club closed to new members, regardless of their luxury content or outstanding performance. There are many clubs like that. Ok.
    Mazda just does not have the luxury brand image or history.
    I accept that as true.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    joe131,

    You are more than welcomed to post at the forum I started a few weeks ago called: "Current and Future-performance oriented domestic & foreign sedans"

    I'm not promising lots of participation from this 335i club but I wouldn't mind hearing what you have to say. I'd like to know more details about the next Mazdaspeed6, since I haven't looked it up yet. ;)

    Rocky
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    I have no clue about a future MazdaSpeed 6. Just the one for sale as 2006 and 2007 models. MazdaSpeed was expected to only makes one model at a time for 1 or 2 years. Model year 2007 sees the introduction of the MazdaSpeed 3 in the last half of 2006. The Speed 6 is a leftover hanger-on.
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