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It's getting a little out of hand. Perhaps the luxury brands expanded their capacity so much in the past few boom years that they are now having to sell at marginal cost (i.e. at a price point that does not help defraying R&D cost) just to keep the factories going. That's typical of industries that are heavy on capital investment and low on marginal cost; the classic example being the airlines . . . every producer/supplier can lose a boat load of money very quickly in a price war in an industry like that.
I have a friend in England who had one briefly and it's simply a fun go cart, but nothing more. He was caught a couple of times in rainstorms - not a fun car for that, with its open top.
My reaction to the silly lease rates is... who cares? $299 a month with zero down is a steal on a CTS. Drive it and save up for the big toy. This is simmialr to Ford's 0% financing fiasco last year. Don't question it - just smile and let them lose money on the deal. (kind of hoping they do it again, but probably not likely)
edit:
Or, get something like a Celica used for about $8K, drive it for three years, and sell it for $5-6K.
Yup, that's a right attitude. There's a third way: take the deal, and short their stocks, too! And let the profit from the short pay for the lease! I did that with GM/Saab in the first three years of the millenium. Too bad I don't trade ADR's like BMW because I don't want to deal with the exchange risk when the dollar is dropping like a rock.
If its already at dealers, I wonder when they're going to add it to their web site.
Thanks
Bruce
Regards,
OW
Hmmm, I've never considered the 335Xi a competitor per se to the 328Xi. I see it as a complementary model, like the 330Xi and 325Xi were last year.
Bruce
You are correct, my bad!
Regards,
OW
Second place: Lexus IS350 1:38:24 sec
Third place: Infiniti G35 1:38:67 sec
http://clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275963
I'm thinking the TL-S might have had stickier tires...
Did the professional driver (Keiichi Tsuchiya) take turns in each vehicle and this is the time he achieved in each...or did he race the other drivers in the picture...and he beat them driving the TL.
I'm not a bad driver...but he could probably beat me even if he was in a FWD (and probably a civic
The 335 should trump all the other tested cars.
Regards,
OW
As others at clublexus have already said, kudos to Acura to making the most of a FWD platform.
Specs/Data for Acura TLS, Infiniti G35 Sport and Lexus IS 350 were:
Weight – 3715, 3805, 3805
Pounds/HP - 12.99, 12.43, 12.43
Torque – 256, 268, 277
0-60 – 5.7, 5.4, 4.9
60-0 – 117, 120, 126
Skidpad - .91, .88, .84
700 ft Slalom – 66.0, 65.5, 66.7
Maybe weight was a factor in that Acura was 90 pounds lighter than the others. But, Acura had less torque and HP and had a worse pounds/HP ratio. Acura was at a disadvantage on power. Perhaps Acura had better lap times because of better suspension setup.
R&T said that: "Drive the Acura at about 7/10ths and you'll hardly realize that the front tires are providing the thrust. The overall handling balance is surprisingly neutral with understeer noticable only through tight corners". Also, "Turn-in response is crisp and body roll is minimal".
Don't believe that too many people even get close to 7/10ths on public roads.
That's probably true but there are situations where they do. For instance, when the throttle is put to the floor on curves, FWD is a bummer. In that situation, the more torque there is, the worse it is as far as steering is concerned. It feels like there's a little devil in the steering column fighting every move you make. FWD is contentious.
"The final corner at Willow Springs is a high speed corner where you go in at 4th gear with no braking. The speed range for the final corner at Tsukuba Circuit is no where close to the one at Willow Springs. Even professional American drivers course-out or crash when exiting the corner at times. Even at corners like this, I was able to step on the gas with the TL. Seems like the TL never goes under (under steer i think). The nose of the car smoothly shifts towards the inside, it is amazing... As I drive the TL more and more I ask myself, "Wait! Is this car a FR? (front engine, RWD)?" The performance is unbelievable for a FF."
Pounds/HP - 12.99, 12.43, 12.43
***
URK. What a mess.
They need to drop about a thousand pounds.
Go test drive both of them if you don't trust R&T.
I did and I am not surprised at all.
So, when all is said and done, specs of cars compared and so forth, it is results that count. That is, actual "measured" performance data such as 0-60, quarter mile, 60-0, lap time, skid pad, slalom, etc.
Of course, there is also the subjective "feel" of the car that one has to factor when making a purchase. Do you like how it feels when cruising as well as doing various performance type stuff, but less than 7/10 on public roads.
I did and I am not surprised at all.
I did too...
I understand what kdshapiro is trying to say.
They're both fast... it's too close to tell without some sort of stop watch.
With that being said, the IS may be slightly faster in a straight line, but the G has it all over the IS in real race conditions.
Especially when the G35S is equipped with 4WAS, an IS would never keep up with the G in the turns.
Where I want power is: a) passing at 50 mph on the way up Highway 50 in the Sierra Nevada, b) out of a country road curve at 35 mph, or c) merging on to a freeway. In SoCal, where you often have to accelerate from 40 to 75 quickly to safely merge on a freeway, 0-60 is meaningless. So unless a poster is referring to his hobby of going out to the local race track to do time trials, I wish the HP and 0-60 stats would be shelved.
They are all a guide so that if you wan to pass a soccer-person minivan to get to an off/on-ramp, you know you can or you know you can't.
Regards,
OW
Jack
More useful are the slalom and passing tests, because some cars are slugs due to having a torque converter locked.(and again, manually down-shifting isn't kosher unless the car has a manu-matic.)
About magazines, while I generally loathe Consumer Reports, their track test-data is very close to real-life since they don't play tricks to squeeze out a few tenths of a second.
P.S. Horsepower ratings are nearly meaningless unless we can also see it throughout the gears.
I've never been in 6th gear at 50 and decided to pass someone in 6th gear. 4th gear most likely and even then I'll dip to 3rd for passing.
Well, in the interest of inclusiveness (it's now required), your quote prompted me to research the TL. For those who care (2?) and those who haven't heard yet, my requirements for a next car are: 1) manual transmission, 2) RWD, 3) excellent handling (usually comes with the RWD), 4) space to store my bicycle inside the vehicle, 5) something resembling luxury, 6) decent fuel mileage & 7) stone solid reliability/longevity.
Your quote was interesting, since I've learned that getting all of this is impossible; however, there may be other options for achieving good handling. I've become willing to (possibly) throw RWD under the bus, which has allowed the A3 & A4 back into the mix. Getting an Acura that handles half-way decently (I drove my daughter's Prelude a week or so ago -- solid) sounded like a third FWD possibility.
So, I went to (where else) Edmunds & learned that the TL/S isn't even listed (or if it is, I'm too stupid to find it). From there I went to the Acura site & learned that I had to pay for navigation that I don't want (have my own portable) & that fold-down rear seats aren't available. I think they called it a pass-through. My bike's front fork most assuredly won't "pass through."
However, in the spirit of Mark (a 27-Audi driving person who actually considered an Infiniti) & Shipo (who taught me that driving a BMW didn't necessarily make me a status-seeking poseur), I went well away from my comfort zone and learned. . .that I shouldn't have bothered.
Sounds like the TL/S is a viable option for those who want a loaded vehicle with a manual transmission & limited hauling capacity.
Sadly, I'm not in the cohort.
Continuing the hunt.
That "simple" subtraction will not produce anything close to the 50-70 times that are separately run, usually by keeping the car in top gear (or at least the same gear) in a manual transmission car.
For example, I have the Motor Trend road test of a 911S and it shows 0-50 in 3.2 and 0-70 in 5.6, which would "subtract" to a 50-70 in 2.4 seconds. They don't show a separate 50-70 time, but the ones I have seen are at least double that figure. MT also doesn't show their shift points, but I'm guessing that they are hitting 50 in 2nd gear and 70 in 3rd, shifting somewhere in the 60 mph range. If the actual 50-70 test was done in 6th, 5th or even 4th, you'd get much slower times than 2.4 seconds. If I were cruising along at 50 mph, I'd probably be in 4th or 5th rather than 6th, but I sure as heck wouldn't be cruising in 2nd at 6,000 rpm.
Bottom line is that everyone should do their own test drives. On the same note, although I own a 2004 TL 6-speed and it was rated as fast or faster than some of the top performing RWD ELLPS at the time, it takes a hell of a lot more practice to launch a FWD vehicle to a 6 second 0-60 sprint than, say, a RWD 330i. The FWD wheel hop, tire spinning and torque steer make achieving those times in a TL on city streets a white knuckle experience compared to a relative walk in the park for a 3 series. And that's something I learned from my own extensive test drives, not reading MT or Road and Track. I bought the TL not to drag race at stoplights, but beacause of its well balanced set of attributes.
Regards,
OW
I do agree that everyone should do their own testing, but it would require an associate with a stopwatch to get any precision beyond "seat of the pants". I also agree that any manual FWD car, including the TL would require some practice to get really good 0-60 times. The auto version would be a few ticks slower, but since it's equipped with traction control (n/a on the stick version) it's a little easier to get consistency. I too bought the TL-S for it's balanced attributes and excellent value for the price.
In my humble observations, drivers doing all-out runs from stop lights (or stopped on a straight-flat rural road) and leaving rubber on the road are more likely in Mustangs, old Camaros, old Firebirds, Corvettes and other older American RWDs. Don't recall seeing BMWs, TLs, G35s, ISs doing this kind of stunt. Drivers of these types of vehicles don't desire that type of experience.
Wife and I have had a number of high HP (and high torque)RWD V8 American brand pony cars and others in our younger days and may have done more than a few 0-60 runs leaving rubber on the pavement. Some of these were with 4-speeds, some with auto trans. But, with age and maturity, my/our desires have evolved to a touch of luxury but with some performance.
Still like to explore back road twisties driving at a safe sensible rate and certainly never approaching the so-called 7/10ths level. The TL fully satisfies our needs, as a matter of fact two TLs - an 04 and an 07. These TLs do have more than adequate power to pass safely on the rural 2-lane roads in our area. TL, with FWD, also satisfies our winter driving needs.
Try another quote, this one from Edmunds test of an 04 TL:
"The TL feels extremely confident on the street, but it took several runs through our slalom to confirm its status as one of the best-handling front-wheel drivers we've sampled. The steering is properly weighted and offers stellar feedback. The engine's broad torque range and progressive throttle response made powering through the slalom easy, and the smart chassis/suspension tuning allowed us to place the car easily between cones. Technically, it may not be as "fun" as a BMW 3 Series, but it obviously goes through the slalom just as rapidly. — Karl Brauer"
That was the 2004 model, and the 2007 has been improved in handling.
I had a 1984 Prelude (without air initially) and was impressed with its handling for a FWD. Putting in air in 1988 did affect handling a little. R&T did a road test of the 1984 (in 1984) and gave a very favorable report on its handling. Its 5-speed trans was very smooth and it along with the clutch never had a problem in 195K miles.
The funny part is that the car that feels right for me is one that is often belittled here because it is not as fast as most other ELLPs, an A4 2.0T Quattro. It is not nearly as fast or value laden as the TL or G35, but it has a lighter feel and is more nimble on country roads and has good midrange torque. That is, it has a better feel for me. Most of the other ELLPs are too small in the interior (3 Series, G35, IS) or are too pricey (3 Series, IS 350). But it is that "feel" that is the most important factor and is certainly more important than 0-60.
BTW, I am glad I was not alone in some frustration at the HP/0-60 criteria that most mags and posters rely on. I don't get the subtraction argument either. When I must pass 3 RVs on an uphill two lane in the mountains, I am not redlining but instead am poking along behind them at the time I make my move.
If it is, then why shouldn't any other speed freaks drivig it?
Is a woman driving the second quickest car to 60 automaticly a soccer mom?
IMHO, soccer moms are not the best at producing 0-60 because they don't usually rev engines and dump clutch. If they as a group routinely did that, the term "soccer mom" would be a nickname professional drivers :-)
Heck, even Dodge Grand Caravans are quick these days if you nail the gas!
The point is 0-60 is one metric that is a staid test. Some of the ELLPS in mid-range acceleration are better than others. There are stats for the mid-range as well for comparison purpose. At the end of the day, you buy what you feel gets the job done at your perceived value proposition.
Regards,
OW
You mean funny, like I'm a clown?