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A friend of mine saw a 335Xi in person at a Northern Virginia dealer about 2 weeks ago. He even went back a second time to confirm it was a 335Xi and not a 335i.
Thanks
Bruce
Does this mean you think it is ALL marketing?
I talk with people who are shopping for cars all the time and these people, some of them buying high buck, mid buck and low buck cars (domestic and not domestic) seem "proud" to add "I ordered my new 300 w/AWD," etc.
These, sometimes, are people I never knew would have even been much aware of AWD. I imagine these comments are "in part" marketing (that is, me too) influenced.
Just curious. :confuse:
I am not sure how you came up with your numbers but I don't want to play anymore...
More surprising is that 9 out of 10 IS's I see on the road are AWD 250's.
Like it or not, AWD is here to stay.
Why are you so hot on this? Here are the simple facts of car buying for me:
1. I will not pay extra for a feature I believe distracts from enjoyment of a vehicle - automatic transmission, AWD, etc.
2. I will not add a feature that costs me extra, loses value and hurts gas mileage - automatic transmission, AWD.
3. I will not add a feature that will increase weight and increase repair costs - automatic transmission, AWD.
I was wondering 335xi, was going to be available so I could start looking for them on the road.
Rocky
I know you probably have researched this, but your list (and it is YOUR list) seems to have one assumption that my buddies who sell cars for a living (here in Cincinnati, to set the stage) don't agree with. They claim that all cars, from a practical standpoint, lose value; but, they claim it is more difficult to move a USED manual transmission car, and that given two [in this case BMW's] similar cars, the USED AWD car will command a higher resale price.
Perhaps this is only applicable above a certain climate line. In any case, it is your money.
If you are correct, however, why is it that it is virtually impossible to find a manual transmission German car these days? Even closer to impossible to find an American car with a stick, ditto a Japanese make?
My argument, for some time, always was that it was darn near a conspiracy for if people only drove (as in test drove) sticks that they would find they are more enjoyable.
These days, despite Consumer Reports claim as to the poor reliability of Mercedes, the dropping reliability of BMW's and the slight rise of Audis in that regard, I believe automatic transmissions to be reliable. Some of them exact little if any penalty on mileage. Some, likewise exact no or virtually no acceleration penalty; and the argument I decided to stop fighting seemed to have more to do with "population density" in so many places taking the "enjoyment" out of manually shifting while trying to check voice mail, drink a latte, program the navigation system and fiddling with the "joy stick" controls of so many of these cars.
I am wondering, however, if there would be evidence (and I'm not saying there is, so this is a hypothetical question) if there were evidence that automatic or AWD didn't do some of the things you know to be negatives, if you would then consider switching?
Just for kicks, if the choice of a 6 speed manual or 6 speed automatic was a $0.00 cost decision, or if the retained resale value of AWD was higher (%) than, etc, and/or if repair costs for manuals were actually likely to be greater, etc -- would your mind change? Or, are you really more about #1 than #2 and #3.
Frankly, for me, life's too short to drive a 2WD car and it would take a huge economic disincentive to stop honing in ONLY on AWD versions.
The fact, apparently, that the new CTS can be had with AWD but not AWD plus a manual transmission is a bit of a downer, but if the car is sweeet, I'd probably overlook that. Finding a 335xi or 535xi stick shift to test drive will be darn near impossible -- so if the magic lease genie makes me a deal I can't refuse, I might be forced to order a car I can't test drive and take the chance (small though it would be) that the stick shift is unsatisfactory.
Drive it like you live. :shades:
I happen to agree with both of you in that, AWD is a value adder in many markets that see inclement weather, or in the case of Audi, it does mitigate some of the negative FWD handling characteristics on their heavier, softer cars. On the other hand, I haven't driven an A3 with Sport Package, but I suspect it's pretty tight and light on it's feet, and I could see the added weight and driveline friction of AWD being a negative there.
Finally, I wouldn't say that anyone shopping/owning a car in this segment is a "purist." These cars, by their very nature, are unpure thanks to their luxury, soundproofing, weight, and power-assisted everything. A purist would drive an RX-8 or Evo IX before choosing one of these leviathans.
I think some people want to try to stay on the "purer" end of the scale and would prefer a FWD A3 2.0T to an AWD A3 3.2 Quattro - others feel the opposite but both are valid. If I still lived in Southern California, I don't think I could justify buying a 3660# A3 Quattro when there's another, identical looking A3 on the lot that is 400 lbs lighter, is more fun to drive, and costs thousands less.
There is a huge market for AWD sedans out there, but they still aren't for all people and all markets.
Key words: they - salespeople - claim it. I've sold many manual cars. Recently when I put my 330i manual on swapalease I had 9 people contact me to take over the lease (over 50 people contacted me with questions). It was a deluge of people and in every case they mentioned the manual transmission. Kd and others who have sold bimmers privately can attest to the drawing power of the manual. Never owned an automatic car and I always seem to sell my cars quickly; this is probably because I'm getting manuals in fun-to-drive vehicles; my cars attract enthusiasts.
and that given two [in this case BMW's] similar cars, the USED AWD car will command a higher resale price.
It cost more to begin with, so naturally it will command a higher resale value. Navi will also increase the used car price; but never forget it added tremendously to the purchase price. $2100 navi = 2262 cost to the first buyer. in CA. Sell the car and get 1600 more because it had navi, well you just lost $600. Was it worth it?
If you are correct, however, why is it that it is virtually impossible to find a manual transmission German car these days?
Haven't had any problems. But then again, I either order my cars or buy versions intended for enthusiast's. My 03 330i 6MT was bought off the lot. Bro-in-law's 03 325 was a manual too - off the lot. 06 330i was ordered. 07 cooper s was off-the-lot with a manual.
I believe automatic transmissions to be reliable.
If you mean needing or repair at 120k instead of 80k, maybe. It's still extremely expensive to fix an auto tranny and getting pricier all the time. There is no sense in paying 1200 extra for something that could end up with a 4-5-6k bill later. The manual comes in the base price and at most it'll require a new clutch at 100-150k miles.
have more to do with "population density" in so many places taking the "enjoyment" out of manually shifting while trying to check voice mail, drink a latte, program the navigation system and fiddling with the "joy stick" controls of so many of these cars.
No liquids allowed in the car, nothing to fiddle with (no cds, no navi) and phone is on bluetooth. I drive in LA with manuals; it's not a big deal. Like the unreliability of a BMW, I'll gladly take 85 % moments of unhappiness for 15% of bliss.
I am wondering, however, if there would be evidence (and I'm not saying there is, so this is a hypothetical question) if there were evidence that automatic or AWD didn't do some of the things you know to be negatives, if you would then consider switching?
How could AWD be lighter? It has more parts.
How could it not impact fuel economy? It has more parts creating drag.
how could AWD be cheaper to maintain? It has more parts.
Replace AWD with automatic and you get the same thing.
Just for kicks, if the choice of a 6 speed manual or 6 speed automatic was a $0.00 cost decision, or if the retained resale value of AWD was higher (%) than, etc, and/or if repair costs for manuals were actually likely to be greater, etc -- would your mind change? Or, are you really more about #1 than #2 and #3.
Manual repairs can't be higher, so the hypothetical has a logical fallacy.
Frankly, for me, life's too short to drive a 2WD car and it would take a huge economic disincentive to stop honing in ONLY on AWD versions.
To each his own.
Finding a 335xi or 535xi stick shift to test drive will be darn near impossible -- so if the magic lease genie makes me a deal I can't refuse, I might be forced to order a car I can't test drive and take the chance (small though it would be) that the stick shift is unsatisfactory.
It's a BMW so it's a given the car will have a lousy manual. But even a lousy manual is better than the cheapest, best automatic.
Agree with your post entirely. I'm not telling others to ditch their AWD cars.
Well, that was a very real situation on the BMW 550i. Whether you chose the auto, SMG, or stick was a no cost option. The only penalty was the stick came with a $1200 (I think) gas guzzler charge. But that was for 2007. Don't know about the '08s. But, had the stars aligned properly at the time, I still would've selected the stick despite the gas guzzler tax.
I'm starting to notice 335i sedans, but have not spotted a 335Xi on the road yet.
Are you interested in the 335Xi, or just curious to see one?
Thanks
Bruce
For the 08 5 series, the auto is a no cost option on the 535Xi. That may apply to other 5 series models as well, I just remember checking for the 535Xi.
Bruce
http://www.bmwmsp.com/bmw/military/sales/program/bmw-300xi-sedan.html
Unfortunately, you have to be registered with the site to get any additional information.
****
If you look at the reliability for Mercedes in Europe, you see that they aren't considered unreliable at all - far from it, in fact. So, what gives?
- Europe uses the smaller engines and turbo diesels. These are bulletproof designs and work well. The bloated versions we get in the U.S. are only a little faster but are half as reliable.
- Europe uses 90%+ manuals. The automatics are made 110% for rental fleets for tourists and the like. As such, they are whatever cheap *chrysler* junk they can fit in them - simmilar to how much GM's rental trim cars stink compared to their non-rental units like a Lucerne CXS.
So the easy way to solve it is to get the Euro engine and the Euro trans. Case in point - the Mercedes C230K. If you bought it with manual and the 1.8L supercharged engine, it was a beautiful car. Reliable, cheap enough to fix, good handling(being 100lbs lighter up front than the 2.4 or 3.2 engine), and nearly 35mpg.
This also works with imports. Almost all of Japan also drives manuals. So manuals in imports tend to be quite decent. The mega-speed automatic in a Camry? 3500-4000 to fix. Egads, that's an astounding repair bill. In fact, the market for a used car with automatic with anywhere over 70-80K on it is miserable because the cost of a new transmission has to be factored in in the next year or two.
I never had a problem selling any car with manual. The fact is that the number of people who want manuals is always the same as it has been - about 30%. But with so few choices, most of them settle for auto-manuals or automatics. So there is a huge pent-up demand for anything the least bit sporty or luxurious with stick.
Try to get a price on a Porsche 928 or 968 with stick - gosh - it's 2K more than the automatics, easily - and you better buy it this HOUR becaue it'll be gone by tommorrow. A RX-8? The automatics rot on the lot because everyone wants stick. Mazda is getting smarter, though, and offering about 30-40% manuals in most of its sportier cars.
The local Mercedes dealer when I was last there, told me that they love getting manuals because all they have to do is put it up on autotrader and it's sold in a day or two, every time.
Granted, many devices which can disassociate hydrogen from water use more electricity than it would have taken to power the car with electricity in the first place, but not ALL devices are so wasteful of electricity.
And another thing, those of you touting all electric pollution free cars may be disappointed to find out that some of the electricity producers pollute the air and water to make that electricity needed to charge the cars."
any conversion or refineing of product to another product consumes energy in the conversion process. taking crude oil from the ground and refining and transporting it to your tank consumes a good portion of energy. My guess the trick is who is the most efficent in producing energy to power one vehicle.
As I said, I loved my light nimble 1972 Ford Capri. But I am also used to torque steer - I have had 2 Saab Turbos! And the A3 is a similar concept of the Capri but drains one like the Saab. The A3 has huge torque in a little FWD car - which equates with lots of tiring fun IF you drive hard ( I am going 60 on very windy roads in this test). But for my only car that I am driving 3-4 hours after a grueling mountain bike ride or a 13 mile hike, the A3 would be exhausting. The A4, though less nimble and connected to the road effortlessly pulls one out of corners making it easier to actually enjoy the whole driving experience (e.g. drive really fast).
BTW, I am a big guy and the A3 is cramped, just like the 3 series, the IS, the TL, and the G35. If I were not 6-2, 190, I would be more comfortable contemplating 6 hour road trips in an A3.
I don't have a lot of time behind the wheel of AWD sports cars, but I've participated in plenty of DE's with Evo's and STi's on the track, and they are FAST - so fast that my M3 can't keep up with them. Speaking to owners though, I've also heard that they are "too easy" to drive, and not much fun.
A FWD sport sedan can be very fun and satisfying once you figure out the "magic" of driving them properly - brake later on corner entry, trail brake deeper into the corner, turn sharper to a later apex, and straighten the wheel for track out sooner so you can get on the gas. It's a different line than conventional RWD, but once you master it, it can be just as quick as a "RWD line" - though I admit, it's not as much fun.
I suspect the A4 Quattro gives the driver a very planted and confidence inspiring feeling - and it feels good to push a car hard and get that unflappable "is that all you've got?" response. I hear where you're coming from, but for me (and a few others here, I enjoy having limits that are attainable (and exceedable). I want to get sideways, have a "dialogue with the pavement through the tires, and be able to control/induce understeer, 4-wheel drift, and oversteer with gentle finessing of the throttle and steering wheel. It's not going to happen on a car with multiple differentials that automatically transfer torque in varying amounts to all four wheels.
For me, this is the biggest challenge in my move to FWD. I'm essentially re-wiring myself to enter deeper into a corner before really applying the brakes. The RWD line is still more fun for me but I'm sure after some time I'll get used to the notion of putting the weight on the front of the car for hard cornering.
A question. Don't AWD cars have limits too? When I test drove the other day, I fishtailed the Quattro a tiny bit coming out of a 10 mph loop.
In my experience, driving the "RWD line" in a FWD car gives you abundant understeer as you try to apply power while cornering. You can't accelerate and turn in a FWD car like you can with RWD, so the key to fast lap times with FWD is to keep the steering wheel pointed straight as long as possible through the corner (imagine the peak of a triangle superimposed over the corner to illustrate minimal time spent turning). The entry side of the triangle is longer and bends deeper into the corner because you're (trail)braking (more traction in front and even some oversteer in a more neutral FWD car). The exit side of the triangle is shorter and arrow straight so you can get on the gas sooner and harder.
Have fun with the Mini!
I have all-season tires on my M3 for the street (Pirelli PZero Nero), so 4-wheel drifting is almost an "every day" event for me
Just don't ask me how fast I can take this corner with my RA-1's :surprise:
All cars have limits. There are so many different kinds of AWD systems, it's impossible to characterize them all as a group.
Here's a pretty good description of the Quattro AWD system...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_(all_wheel_drive_system)
I meant actually driving a RWD car is still more entertaining. I didn't mean that I'm entering corners the same way. you simply can't.
You can't accelerate and turn in a FWD car like you can with RWD, so the key to fast lap times with FWD is to keep the steering wheel pointed straight as long as possible through the corner (imagine the peak of a triangle superimposed over the corner to illustrate minimal time spent turning).
Thus the whole issue of going against the RWD grain; it's hard to rewire myself to put weight on the front tires. After BMWCCA courses I'm still locked into keeping weight settled and avoiding nose-plow as all the power will disappear in a flash.
Although I learned to drive on FWD cars when I was 10, my mom and dad had RWD cars, so I always found their cars more entertaining to push.
With my street shoes, I do roll the ball of my foot over to the gas pedal. When I'm wearing driving shoes though, I find them too narrow to reach over easily - I have to use my heel to blip the throttle.
30%? Now, I HOPE you are correct. If 30% of people want or "lean" toward stick shifts, why is it that it is virtually impossible to find a BMW 5 series (5 thirty or twenty something) with a manual. The largest dealer in Ohio, the 10th largest in the US has a huge inventory (and we have two BMW dealers here in Cincinnapolis, ditto the other one) and there are zero sticks to test drive?
If there would be 30% of the market who would buy a stick, wouldn't at least 3 cars out of an inventory of 100 be expected to be stick?
Our sales rep called me to say "inbound 5 series, unclaimed, stick shift, come and drive it this Saturday." Of course, I show up and the car sold as it was being unloaded from the truck.
Prompting me to say, "if the sticks sell virtually instantly, why not inventory one or two?" The guy who buys them overhears my question and says, "because they sit and sit on the lot, which decreases my floor plan."
Cognitive dissonance? Yep.
When Audi surveys me (as they seem to do with regularity), they ask me (having had 28 Audis) which one is or was my favorite.
I tell them my 1995 S6 was the most fun and -- with respect to 1995 -- the best car I've ever had. Then I say, the 2005 A6 is a better car in almost every way when compared to the 1995 S6. The S6 was just plain more fun to drive -- it was a stick shift with a "fun" 5 cylinder turbo.
My survey is probably flagged and placed into the weirdo-bin.
1. Stick buyers will definitely order
2. Off-the-lot buyers will end up paying for more options, thus the profit margins are higher with auto-equipped cars.
Again, there's a reason used BMWs with sticks are easy to sell - the demand is greater than the supply on lots. All the people that wanted my e90 wanted it expressly because it was one of the few on swapalease with a manual.
Prompting me to say, "if the sticks sell virtually instantly, why not inventory one or two?" The guy who buys them overhears my question and says, "because they sit and sit on the lot, which decreases my floor plan."
****
For a nice car like the BMW, the demand is about 30%, which is why they sell so shockingly fast. The total market has so few manuals in it(rental fleets skew the percentage greatly, btw) that the few makes that do offer it are mobbed by buyers.
As to why they don't order manual BMWs? I don't know - the local dealer does - and told me he tries to get them used since its the automatics that sit forever on the used lot. Of course, he advertizes the car on cars.com the day it comes in, which is like putting your house on the MLS - millions of people find it and the calls come pouring in.
My guess, though, is profit margins. Most makes only can be had with manual at the lowest trim level and with the newer manu-matics, they probably feel that they can convince you to buy one.(have both types of customers covered).
I really suggest you get a 5-speed in a BMW, though - the fun and the resale alone are worth it.
The local (SW Ohio) BMW dealer says AWD sales have now passed 40%, and that the growth has slowed due to "allocation" (availability, by another name, sort of.)
I cruise up and down the lot and the butts of the Bimmers are Something Something Something "Xi" and then one or two M's or a 6 series or 7 which (at this juncture, but not for long) are still exclusively RWD. The next gen of the 7, so they say, will be offered with "X" however.
Anyway, they fill the lot, the overflow lot and the inbound queue with as many AWD Bimmers as they are allowed.
Yet when ONE stick is ordered (almost as if it were an accidental order) it sells sight unseen before your's truly gets to even whiff that new car scent.
They sell 1,200 new Bimmers a year. You'd think they could "order" without a customer (i.e. for inventory) 36 of them per year in various flavors in stick.
When we got our X3 -- we HAD to order it; and, you're correct, there was a "strippie" X3 2.5 offered -- but we wanted the 3.0, sat nav, sport package and the bun warmers and high zoot sound system.
Plenty like that with the horrible stutter tronic of the day -- the good news? Only takes 7 weeks to order and take delivery of an X3 (at least in early 2005 that was the case.)
Not wanting to argue or keep this going too long, just sitting here, mind blown, thinking 30% demand and not even 3% supply? Where's the fun in that?
:confuse:
They have nothing available but AWD slushboxes, and then they say they only sell AWD slushboxes... well, duh!!
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Regard,
OW
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I bought a 2004 TL 6-speed that had exactly the same MSRP as the automatic.
My wife and I bought a 2005 MDX that, had their been a 6-speed option, we would have gladly paid $1,000 extra for. Now, with over 30,000 miles on it and the factory warranty up at 48,000 miles, I have to choose between paying $2,000 for an extended warranty or facing the possibility that the automatic transmission fails at a repair cost of $5,000. My wife has offered up a third option: sell the MDX and get a new Porsche Cayenne 6-speed. She's willing to give up the third row seats and send me off to the Porsche driving school in my 911 just so she doesn't have to drive that miserable slushbox.
For us, there is no redeeming value of a slushbox. Both my wife and I have survived ACL surgeries, plus a right rotator cuff surgery for me without even wishing once for an automatic. And we live in DC - a fairly "population dense" place.
Who knows, maybe we will have 18 row-your-own gears in 3 vehicles by this time next year.
LOL. Sounds like my sister. She's going on 6 years in an SUV and she adores driving my cars and her husband's BMW - they're all manuals. She's too cheap to go out and buy herself a new bimmer, so she struggles along with the automatic SUV always griping that the rest of us have fun cars.
I think my friends and family must be odd as just about every household there's at least one manual car, if not two.
It's a very nice deal and not a bad car, really, if you get it with manual. Now, sure, people deride the interior, but as opposed to what - payments/buying a new Aveo or Yaris for $299 a month? Put in this light, it's a fine car and costs the exact same as buying it and then selling it yourself, which is rare in a lease.
Essentially you save massive taxes and a couple of hundred per month for the same cost to drive in the end. A win-win situation. And, given the CTS's projected resale once the new models are out, you can probably re-buy the car from the dealer's used car lot after trading it in for 2-3K less than the "buyout" cost.(evil grin)
No more complaining - tell her about the lease and who knows - maybe the SUV she hates will finally be put to rest.
I would "percieve" the list to be in order of best to last like this:
Lexus
Accura
Infinity
Audi BMW - Tied
Cadillac
Mercedes
Please let me know your perceptions.
Thanks,
OW
Acura
BMW/Infiniti
Cadillac
Mercedes
Audi
Infiniti
Audi / BMW (tied)
Mercedes
Cadillac
BMWs are so bad that they are only sane to *lease*, not buy. Mercedes is a close second to last place.
My list, based upon cost to own including maintainence:
(good)
GM
Infiniti
Accura
Lexus
----(major gap here)
(poor)
Audi/VW
Mercedes
BMW
The odd thing is that this list is close to the exact reverse of the order in which they actually *perform*. Go figure.
"03 Nisson Maxima SE
"04 BMW 330XI
"04 Acura TL
"05 Cadillac CTS[3.6]
"06 Audi A3
"06 Lexus IS350
and early this month,I traded Lexus in on
"07 Infinity G35X
The G35 is, BY FAR, the best car that I have ever owned.Driving this powerful and nimble car is truly a thrill that places it in a class of its own. Much faster than IS350 even though hp [306] is the same [ maybe because its lighter even with AWD]. The Bose system, Nav system, seat comfort, Keyless ignition, and incredably intuitive controls and content are class leaders. Yes, there are negatives: Exterior styling is only so so; and gas milage is LOUSEY!!. Even with the negatives, the G35X is one fabulous automobile. Bill H.
bad (in order of best of the worse to worse of the worse)
GM
Infiniti/Acura/Lexus/Audi/VW/BMW
Mercedes
Any of these manufacturers will quickly empty your wallet for major reports. BMW and Lexus are almost identical in cost for out of warranty repairs for the same item. I would take an extended warranty for all of these manufacturers.
I have a different experience. To me the IS350 felt faster than the G even though the HP is the same and apparently R&T agree with me too...
For those enthusiasts, in "faster" I meant the straight line acceleration. I would not deny that the G felt more confident than the IS in corners.