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Comments

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,538
    Yeah, I had same thoughts. The comment on synthetic simply didn't add up to me either. Knowing that European brands/models and all other brands marketed across the Pond (that includes GM, Ford, Honda et al.) come with synthetic-only maintenance with intervals 12-20 thousand miles, depending on the brand (they did that about a bit less than 10 years ago). You have to use specific brand (or approved brands), or you void your warranty, but the idea is to cut into number of visits in garages. Seems it didn't catch up in the US because the dealers would rather see you four times per year, so they can always find something to do. In exchange, you get cheapest oil they can buy, but since you change it every three months, it doesn't matter that much (in their mind anyway). It would be an outrage if customers suddenly stopped coming just because the oil got better and doesn't need to be changed, wouldn't it? Not in this country, we don't allow things like that. ;)

    Plekto's short synthetic life comment make no sense to me. Even oil companies today sell full syntetic oil with indicated intervals on the box north of 10 thousand miles. They woudn't do that, if the product didn't meet that. They have interest in selling more stuff, not less.

    The advantage of synthetics is supposed oil particle size and chemistry, which in turn is supposed to provide both better lubrication and lifespan.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    edited March 2013
    I always thought synthetic was only useful for engines that 'used' it; akin to premium fuel...only engines that ran hot (turbo's, etc) benefited. The life of the oil wasn't necessarily greater.

    Suppose it doesn't matter...to maintain your warranty you need to use what the manufacturer specifies anyway; hopefully they get it right :)
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    Oil commentary from edmunds- yes edmunds

    http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/top-7-urban-legends-about-motor-oil.html

    My favorite line is "Synthetic oil is better for your car's engine and it improves your fuel economy. Myth"

    For those of you who are leasing- and put synthetic in the car even though its not mandated I would think 2x before spending the extra coin on a car you don't own- for those of you who get the "free" BMW oil changes who cares on the 3 changes you will need.

    I own my car - I do 2 oil changes a year and use a synthetic blend- no real reason why I choose it - it's cheaper then full synthetic and cost 10 bux more a change vs the regular and it makes me feel good for some odd reason-
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,102
    I would have to check the manual, but I assumed my Acura (2013 RDX with the 3.5l) used semi-syn. I know my 2007 Volvo S40 uses that (I asked when I took it in for the first time last year).

    but for the Acura, it will get what they put in it, since the dealer will be doing it.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited March 2013
    Are you saying that synthetic oil has a shorter (in miles or time) life span of "protection" but that semi-syn is better in that regard? I thought that one of the hallmarks of 100% synthetic was that it was able to hold more dirt and crud in suspension than non-synthetic oils (meaning, I assume) that you could use synthetic oil for longer intervals without engine damage or for shorter intervals for even better protection than non-synthetic oils.

    No, it doesn't have a shorter life span. It's more than double, in fact. The issue is what happens when both are put under stress or are reaching the end of their lifespans.

    Synthetic oil is slippery goo that is only protecting the engine's internals due to the anti-wear additives that are part of it. When those run out, the goo essentially has the protection of water, or close to it. If you are near the end of its life and, say, it's a cold winter day, the synthetic has all gone down into the crankcase other than a thin film left on the internal parts. If the levels of anti-wear additives are too low, you're in trouble as there is nothing to fall back on.

    Natural oil has anti-wear additives as well(to help with higher rpms and pressures), but when it reaches the end of its life, the oil itself retains a fair amount of low rpm/starting anti-wear properties as long as it hasn't suffered thermal breakdown.(synthetic oils are better in this regard) In fact, oil will retain most of this natural level of protection even when it has been reduced to sludge.

    The reason you should run semi-synthetic, as GM is now recommending, though not openly (new Dexos standard), is because when the synthetic runs close to the end of its lifespan, there is something to fall back on. Semi-synthetic works for pretty much all engines and is incredibly resistant to abuse as well. That it's cheaper is also a huge plus.

    And, yes, almost all other manufacturers have their oil life sensors tweaked to be very sensitive with a massive safety margin if the car is running on pure synthetic. You'll never have an issue with a Honda because the synthetic isn't even halfway to its real end of life. (use it in a lawnmower or whatever if you drain it yourself - it'll still work for that just fine, even used)
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    And... nothing in that article is counter to what I was saying. :P

    #1 is about 3K oil changes. This is of course, about *oil*, which has a certain amount of natural lubrication ability no matter how old it gets. I use conventional oil in my "commuter" car (It's almost 15 years old now) and routinely run 4 or 5 thousand miles in it with no problems. My Dad's CTS is showing that it's time to change it at about 5-7 months, typically, which correlates with what the service center mechanics now recommend.

    Not a huge difference, well, other than price.... I sometimes get the feeling that we're getting scammed into buying new technology.

    #2 - #5 are common sense, IMO.

    #6 is absolutely correct in that you can swap right over to semi-synthetic for the extra level of protection that it affords if you forget to change the oil. Semi-synthetic is awesome stuff, IMO, that gives you the best of both worlds for hardly any more money.

    #7 also was touched on in my post, though indirectly. Conventional oil is not inferior to synthetic oils in normal driving conditions. The video that the article links to on this assumes that synthetic is always superior other than price, though. Most of the press also assumes this. Nearly every claim about synthetic oil being superior is based upon racing or extreme conditions, as well, where it does make a difference.

    If you are racing the car or are using a high revving engine (7-8k+ RPMs), there might be some added protection. But it's going to make no difference in your Jeep or Civic.

    http://autos.aol.com/article/gm-engine-oil/
    "Further, GM says that if a customer has an engine failure that is traced to oil or lubrication issues, and if the customer does not use dexos 1 oil in their gasoline-powered GM vehicle, that act alone could void the warranty."

    Note - Cadillac originally mandated Mobil 1 full synthetic in the CTS. That they would change from full to a blend and make it mandatory is telling.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,538
    If you are racing the car or are using a high revving engine (7-8k+ RPMs),

    So if you have a new crop turbo engine (revs are 20K+), if the turbine bearings are lubricated by same motor oil, you better get a synthetic - which is a usual recommendation by manufacturers. The conventional oil could coke on those quicker than 3K miles.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Obviously. This also affected Porsche, Mazda (RX-8), the Honda S2000, and several other cars with high revving engines. Conventional oils simply couldn't take the punishment. And as engines get to be smaller and higher revving, with more turbos in the mix, you'd need a synthetic blend as a minimum.

    Look, synthetics are superior to conventional oils in every way but one. The base stock of both oils is not the same. While the synthetic has vastly superior properties in most aspects, it's also so highly refined that it provides little protection by itself (almost watery with no viscosity). Conventional oil does to a degree. Then they add the additives to it to make it the oil you and I buy. This isn't an issue at all until you get to a scenario where the oil gets too old.

    In essence, there is no failure mode for synthetics. They work perfectly until they don't and the engine blows up. So "whatever, I'll change it in another month" simply is asking for trouble over time. Conventional oils just sludge up and while that's a huge separate problem, your bottom end bearings usually won't grind themselves into oblivion.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    Wasn't saying it was a counter- just a really short and quick and easy to read- btw I posted this before your post as a general information for those who care.

    Wordy posts are hard to concentrate on- like the beak of the TL- a select few like them.

    I think all cars should have oil and that oil should be maintained correctly.

    Drive like you live.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    "Synthetic oils are superior" - wow - this is the same blanket statement that the oil guys had to scrap in an ad campaign during the early 2000s because legal and compliance killed it because it wasn't scientific proof. (How do I know this, well the wife worked on Castros campaign)

    http://www.motortrend.com/womt/112_9808_synthetic_motor_oil/viewall.html

    Most normal drivers will never get the benefit of synthetic - track guys, like flight would .- and cars that mandate it for warranty I wouldn't mess with a switch.

    I like synthetics because the longer change periods - so does bmw look at all the free maintence they are giving away- once every 10-12k on each car-

    Drive like you Like

    Sween
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited March 2013
    Synthetic are superior on paper, BUT, that one problem is really a giant one, potentially, as it conflicts with the #1 goal of oil, which is to keep the machine from self-destructing. And Americans are unfortunately not the brightest motorists when it comes to maintaining their vehicles. Some of us are, but a whole lot do do things like let their car go a year between changes.

    Most people could run normal cheaper oils and see no difference, though. You're absolutely right on that.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    So the real advantage of synthetics is to help laziness- got it
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    And of course, the oil companies pockets. :)

    Just, don't be *too* lazy about oil changes since synthetic does still need to be changed.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    The additives are different from brand to brand and dino vs. synthetic

    I use dino oil in my Volvo and BMW, and synthetic (with high ZDDP) in my Porsche.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,178
    It was a short info article really about the expanded 3 seriehttp://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/driveon/2013/03/14/bmw-3-series-di- esel-new-york-auto-show/1988237/s line up that is coming read it article

    I will not be making it to the NY Auto, I'm dealing with some family issues right now. So anyone going, I would love to hear about the new Wagon and the GT...
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    A reporter would like to talk to someone under the age of 30 who bought a car within the last few months. Please reach out to [email protected] by Wednesday, March 20, 2013 if you'd like to help.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    Wrong forum Steve most of the dudes on this forum are 40+ Haven't driven a manual year
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    Haven't driven a manual year

    I'm sure that was supposed to mean something sensible. :blush:
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    A manual in years - p
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    See? Our minds are going already. We're all a bunch of guys sitting on our porches who rattle on about crud nobody really cares about. :P

    (note - it is actually quite difficult to find this forum as a first time visitor to the site.)
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,558
    I go to the web site BIMMERFEST.COM fairly regularly.

    Mostly, there are quite a few people who are knowledgeable about the cars and don't mind sharing and discussing the cars.

    Then, there are people like this.....

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nepal
    There is no " status symbol" as a BMW owner in SolCa anymore. 3 series all over the street, 95% of them are 328 of course.

    I know bunch of young kids make just $40,000~$50,000 a year, still live with their parents, and leasing 3 series for whatever reasons.
    You and I are rich people. We live in rich neighborhoods. We socialize with rich people.

    BMW is a status symbol to the 98% of the population that can't afford such a luxury. Young kids, cleaning girls, and other convenient cliches you see driving $50,000 luxury cars don't live there.

    BJ


    I am numb that these type of people even exist, but they do, unfortunately!
    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 3,487
    Whereas, I hope to have a couple of young kids making $40,000-$50,000 a year that let their father still live with them!

    SolCa?, Spanish for Sunny CA, sort of, I guess.

    "You and I are rich people. We live in rich neighborhoods. We socialize with rich people." Should we let them eat cake, Marie?

    My guess, a rich kid living off his parents. Lucky him.

    Me? My name is Elmer Fudd. I am a miwionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.

    '13 Jaguar XF, possibly my favorite of all the cars I've owned. But, my '09 Jag XK was a beauty, as was my '05 Acura TL, '88 Acura Integra, '84 Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo & '78 VW Scirocco (my first!). And, of course, the '92 Nissan Sentra SE-R and '95 Saab 900s I bought for the ex... Ok, I like a lot of the cars in my life.

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    Must be the "backwards hat" crowd you referenced before going to Siberia for a few weeks. Who cares - BMW and others have low lease rates- this allows the crowd you hate to get the same emblem you drive - it's been going on for 20 years - times change
  • jpp75jpp75 DenverPosts: 1,412
    It's all about perspective, I'm probably old enough to be your son but financially I'm more conservative than most my age. Just because you can afford the payment doesn't mean you can afford it.....and just because you are "liquid" (assets>liabilities) doesn't mean you are financially sound.

    Our society views debt as "normal" but I don't/won't consider myself wealthy until I own everything free and clear.
  • alltorquealltorque Posts: 535
    I'm sure that the BMW-owning contributors to this forum own, and drive, them to appreciate the fine German engineering, superb build quality and all-round excellent driving experience; not as status symbols to demonstrate wealth or superiority.

    Obviously these youngsters in SolCa (sic) are merely emulating their elders (?) and betters (?) here on Edmunds.

    Here in the UK the BMW 3-series range outsells the Ford Mondeo range, (last time I checked). So, want exclusivity ? Buy a Mondeo. ;)

    Me ? I'll wait 'til I can afford a new Rolls Royce Wraith or Bentley Mulsanne, although it might be a long wait - in which case it will probably be another Skoda, (a better-built and cheaper VW/Audi). :shades:
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 20,739
    I spent a good deal of my adult life coming up with reasons not to buy a BMW--not worth the asking price, snotty, pretentious owners, not good in snow etc etc. I finally succumbed when I stopped by a local independent reseller/service center and saw low mileage E39 Fivers going for about the cost of a loaded CamCord. I'd driven enough Bimmers to know they were very sweet to drive and I'd known enough owners to know they were well-made so I swallowed my reservations and acquired a 44K mile 528iA. I still have it 8 years and 100K miles later and I've since bought a 77K mile 330Ci Cabrio.

    The real BMW enthusiasts aren't the swells running around in leased M3s, they're the guys like me running old but quite serviceable cars and enjoying them because they're well-made and great to drive in a way that your average FWD sedan could never be. There are a lot of us, just look around you and have a look at what they're saying at BMWCCA.org.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,102
    the only reason I ever came up with was not making enough money to afford it.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,635
    edited March 2013
    . . . it will probably be another Skoda, (a better-built and cheaper VW/Audi).

    Nice car! When I was in Europe on business a few years ago, I rented a Skoda diesel and drove it over 1800 miles through Germany, Austria & Switzerland--yet another fine car that will never be sold in North America.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 20,739
    edited March 2013
    the only reason I ever came up with was not making enough money to afford it.

    I guess I didn't make my point clearly. If you buy them right (i.e. pre-owned) good BMWs cost no more than ordinary cars and being very well-made do not cost a lot to maintain provided you stay out of the dealerships and do your servicing at an independent specialist.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,558
    Andy....I think you are among the majority.

    It's a very small minority, but some (like the person I quoted) believe their good fortune of being the product from a very comfortable family allows them to have a priviliged attitude.

    I thought we fought a war in the late 1700s to break away from people who thought that way?

    Anyway, that attitude embarrasses me as one who likes BMW's, too.
    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,178
    Grapghic, I had a good laugh at what you wrote, and the Movie "Pretty in Pink" came to mind, perfect back drop of the "entitled people." On a side note, I went to school with people who had this attitude, on their 16th Bday went and picked out a new BMW 320i. At that time in my life, BMW's weren't hot on my list of cars.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Great Northwest, West of the Cascades.Posts: 3,425
    After you satisfy your college loans - you qualify to buy a used BMW. Leasing any car while you still owe on your education loans is hypocritical. ;)
  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,178
    Interesting comment.... "After you satisfy your college loans - you qualify to buy a used BMW. Leasing any car while you still owe on your education loans is hypocritical."

    Why does one have to wait 25 yrs to buy a used BMW just because they have student loans? If this was true, then every Dr I know would still be driving their car from med school today, while they are earning a nice 6 figure a year income. Now granted, if you have a college grad you is making 30K/yr, with student loans, they should not be looking to buy any car at this time...
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,538
    And how many doctors file for bankruptcy? As far as I heard, doctors are just terrible business and finance people (not all of course, but as a social group). Buying/leasing expensive vehicle while $100K+ in debt is exactly an example one could give to confirm this opinion.

    25 years of paying off student loans is entirely matter of choices made in this country. It is the order of items they decided to pay and acquire that made them paying student loans in 25 years. I know plenty of people who came out of NOTHING, had tens of thousands in student loans and were free of them within 5-10 years of graduation. It is doable, all it takes is NOT TO BUY STUFF.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 134,483
    It is doable, all it takes is NOT TO BUY STUFF.


    Are you sure you passed the test? That seems un-American... ;)

    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,538
    I was hiding my true feelings. ;)

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,635
    . . . all it takes is NOT TO BUY STUFF.

    Very true, but many people figure that if it's good enough for the government, it's good enough for them -- spend as if there's no tomorrow.

    The morons (like me) who do things responsibly nearly always end up paying for those who don't. Even/especially at work (Fortune 100 company) I've seen this stuff happen. My budgets that were in great shape in September get cut to zero so that the politicians (works every time it's tried) who have run out of money could get to the end of the year.

    Sink or swim was what got this country to where it was a few decades ago. It remains to be seen what the new approach will yield. The good news is that I'll be dead before it plays out.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    I concur. A husband and wife in our group fo friends are physicians. They just paid off their student loans from med school after almost 20 years. They live in a nice but not ostentatious home. She drives a Sienna and he an A4. They live well below their means and are now saving to pay for two more college educations.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,102
    just because you have some student loans doesn't mean you have to live like a pauper or drive a junker.

    My son is about to graduate, and will have some (but not exorbitant) student loan debt. If (please!) he gets a job soon, we will have to do something about a car, because I don't really want to send him away to depend on the well used old one if he is depending on it to commute.

    so, a lease may make the most sense, since there won't be any money left really to put down on something decent, and you would still need a large loan.

    so, the student loan will be just 1 more monthly obligation in 9 months when they start, though putting extra toward it will likely make a lot of sense, depending on the interest rate.

    Still, getting started in life, as long as the payments are not a problem, no reason not to live a normal life.

    Now, my nephew the intern, I think he has close to 300K by now piled up (200?) In any case, I told him to just budget it like a 2nd mortgage!

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    Good response. Agree- completely- infact a lease in some cases can be a cheaper alternative monthly then a used car- look you can get a bmw 328 for 339 a Month (not a leader ad, it's on BMW commercials). Could prob do better in some markers. Why do you think the great bmw stays in biz- it sells cars to non enthusiasts.

    Others who have yet responded to there "backwardsb hat" comments cannot take the youth buying the prestigious bmw, so called enthusiast. Lets go on a road trip with the GFs - but please don't tell us who should be driving such cars.

    Act as if.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 399
    I agree people can do what they want, but how much goes down on that $329 BMW lease, 3 or 4 thousand? If they have that kind of money to put down on a lease they could just buy a pretty good used car for that, no it won't be fancy, but it would be more financially sound, that said that certainly isn't what they have to do, and they are free to go for the fancy car if they want, it is one of the reasons we live in the area we do, people are allowed to make their own decisions, but they are also supposed to live with the consequences of those decisions, not go blaming someone else for them and ask for handouts. Anyway I am getting off topics so I am going to stop.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    edited March 2013
    Scwman- classic responce - my rebut - evenif it's 4k down and that's an if- you get a brand new BMW (with "free maintence") for 3 years - and if you are a recent grad and have an entry level job- you don't have to worry about a new transsssion -'or something similar that you would get in a used car- plus you don't have to pay the full nug at pickup. - a good used car that's 5 years old depending on model is a min 10k. Lux cars could be close to 20 or more.

    Not saying anything wrong with a used car - but a new car under certain lease requirements and given certain situation is not a bad option- and could be a better option. Rock on

    I got an integra GSr in 2000 for 25O a month 1500 down- could not get a better deal- had a 3 year lease- warrantee - no issues- I was a young buck just out of college - last 3 cars have been bought new- all bought- but even if I had the money I would still finance because the rates are so low- case in point- after trade we owed less then 5k for my wife's crv- I financed for 60 mths at .9 because rate was so low- not because we didn't have the extra 5- all about what fits
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,102
    the BMW leases are usually $3,500 IIRC. sometimes a little lower. but rule of thumb, add about $100/month to get a nothing down number. No longer silly cheap, but often still a good deal.

    and $3,500 down on a mew 328 is going to leave a eye watering payment!

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,102
    well, I used an example, but was not considering a BMW for a new grad. More like a Civic, Imprezza, or maybe an ILX with a heavily discounted lease.

    The goal really is to get him established, and saving money. In 3 years he can go for a BMW if he wants one, and can afford it!

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    Look nothing wrong with civic or whatever he can afford- please no 320 BMW - get the civic or tsx or Mini Cooper- the 320 should be reserved for very old people given its weight and displacement and price.'
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,635
    edited March 2013
    pay big money upfront on a lease need to be aware that if the car is totalled, bad things ensue. Being upside-down when that happens wouldn't be an especially big deal for someone who could actually afford the car, but for those who lease because they can't. . .
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    Or you could roll the down payment and tax in a lease and be right side up given a total. Then lease another using the same formula-

    Others love the song "upside down" by jack Johnson - me not so much
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 399
    I have no problem if they can afford the payments, as I said they can do what they want, and you did bring up the BMW which is what I replied to, it would be slightly more reasonable to get a new civics or whatever, but that was not what was being discussed here, it was the leasing or purchasing an entry level luxury car right out of college. Now nobody but the actual person knows what their financial situation is so really we have no business deciding what they should be doing with their money ( as I stated in the my original reply) and the payments on the BMW may be about the same as on the civic ( though with a bigger upfront payment) so why not go for it if you can and want to, but in general it make more sense to have fewer and lower payments to get yourself out of debt before you go adding new debt, of course I agree with the size of many peoples student debt they can't put their lives on hold for twenty years, but a lot of people seem to want it all as soon as they graduate and get into further financial difficulties, I guess all I am saying is they have to make sure they can actually afford what they buy, and that they have to be aware that just because you get a job as a fresh graduate doesn't mean they are going to still have that job in a year or two ( in today's workplace there are very few guarantees) and that they also need to budget savings so they can afford to survive and continue to pay for things in the event they do lose that great first job. In other words don't live beyond your means, its not just advice for governments it is for all of us.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,538
    edited March 2013
    Those friends I had, who paid off student loans in just a few years, did not live like paupers. This forum is about ELLPS, which has word "luxury". Last time I checked the definition, it meant things that are not necessary in life. Last time I checked the word "pauper", it meant somebody deprived of the basic goods and services. There is world between those two point. A three year old domestic or imported compact car is not beyond dignity of a recent graduate. Plenty of people live like that and are not considered living like paupers.
    I'm not going to tell anybody how to live their life, I just rebuff claims that life without a nice car is somehow going to less fulfilling. There is no entitlement of having a nice car when one graduates from college, or medical school. Those feelings are internally developed due to social pressure and marketing. Does not mean we all have to obligue. However, if somebody considers a new Lexus or BMW more important than being debt free, it is their choice. But is was a choice, not necesity. All I ask then is that one does not say later "it was not my fault", "nobody could see that coming", or similar excuse phrase, when things don't go according to plan.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

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