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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,179
    Yes, Dino the prices you have are right and the last 5 generation of the ES was built from the Camry Chassis. This current generation is built of the Toyota Avalon. So, which one got the better deal, the Avalon or the ES?
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    edited April 2013
    Dino, give me examples of these tangible differences?

    Audi and Lexus get superior interior, both in design and in fit/finish. From leather quality, to stitches, to seat profile, to dashboard and liner plastics/inlays. There are options or configurations simply not available in common brand siblings:
    - rear wheel drive sedans (Infiniti, Lexus);
    - manual transmissions on big engines (Infiniti, previous generations of Audi);
    - actual build quality (chassis stiffness, number of welds, stricter quality control procedures, etc.);
    - suspension settings, both standard and sports versions of the brands;
    - "same" engines are often tuned up to produce better power/torque (not all, of course, not always enough to actually notice);
    - there is usually at least one generation of lag in availability of certain convenience, performance or safety equipment, whether standard, or optional (e.g. HID adaptive lights, keyelss sensor entry/start and more) for those who desire them, of course.

    I do not know if the price difference is fully justified to cover it, but it is ridiculous to say they are "the same cars". Similar would be a proper operative word. It is fair to say that 20 years ago those cars were much closer to each other than today - or so it seemed to me.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    Can't tell, never looked at them. I suspect Avalon is better per pound or cubic foot, but ES is likely nicer and probably will have some unique touches. Not sure, if that's enough and what is the real price difference for "equivalent" configurations.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,194
    The only car that I ever liked of the Lexus line was the original SC300/400, which by the way was a Toyota in Japan called the Soarer. So for the most part, Lexus had and in some ways still uses tart up Toyota's and sell them for huge profits.

    Of course everybody does the same thing. It's a market segmentation ploy, no more, no less. GM with it's rebadges, and now its divisions, has done it worse than most. What is different division cars in one country (TSX) is in a single division in another (Euro Accord).

    It's more or less because often engines or quality of interior is changed, even if mostly the same vehicle. And of course higher-end dealers often give more perks and services. Warranties may vary. Etc.

    Only the buyer can decide if it is worth it to them.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 11,107
    The Azera is comparable to an ES. and quite roomy. Though of course, without the prestige badge!

    And without the track record of reliability that Lexus has proven year in and year out.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion AWD
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 11,107
    I can vouch that the GTI and A3 are indeed, vastly different cars, despite being similar. No one that has driven an A3 for an extended period of time would say the upgrades are not worth it vs. the GTI.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion AWD
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 11,107
    Which started off as a tart up Camry

    You say the ES is a tarted up Camry.

    I say the Camry is an ES dressed in rags.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion AWD
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 11,107
    Dino, give me examples of these tangible differences? Other than the fact that the decorations of the dealerships are different.

    Well, for one, if you look in CR you'll see way more red dots than black dots for Audi, and about the opposite for VW. For two, VW dealerships have a bad reputation, not so for Audi dealerships, and furthermore, back in 2006 Audi was still giving free maintenance for 50K miles.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion AWD
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,584
    I remember a point in time that buying a Lexus....any Lexus...meant MSRP only. When the IS first came out, I was mildly interested in one. Aside from them being relatively underpowered, they handled decently. And, they certainly had the interior "eye candy" appeal.

    I recall walking into the showroom to eyeball a particularly pretty dark grey metallic one that was sitting there. Salesperson approached, asked if I liked it. I told him I didn't know much about them. I remember him clearly...."let's go familiarize you with it."

    He pulled it out of the showroom and off we went. Again, it wasn't very fast (especially given that it was supposed to be a sports sedan), but it showed quality and smoothness I had never experienced before.

    I had the inevitable question...."so, on this particular model, is there a price in mind you'd like to throw out there?"

    He pointed to the sticker.

    I countered..."so, if I said I was interested right now for....say....&1,000 off MSRP, you wouldn't take it?"

    "NOPE"!

    "$500 off?"

    "NOPE"

    $100 off?

    "NOPE"

    Contrast that to a year or so ago. I found an IS 350 (next gen from the one I had test driven years ago) that I was very mildly interested in. Went for a test drive again (same dealer, different sales person). Some of the same impressions I had originally...high quality, very smooth. But, this one had some "oooomph" under the hood.

    Still, it really wasn't my cup of tea.

    Big difference, the sales person threw out a number without me even asking that was almost $2K off MSRP.

    Gotta admit, Lexus makes some very high quality cars. They seem to just miss the mark compared to others I might be in the market for at any given time.
    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Posts: 123
    Don't you get a better warranty with a Lexus? Also the dealer here provides a loaner anytime the car is in for repairs. You don't get that with an Avalon.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    I initially thought BMW will bring 320d. It is actually bringing 328d, which I suspect will have higher/similar torque to 328i, nominally lower power (as all diesels do due to lower revs). They announce 45 mpg highway. Say it's true. Let's also assume it will be priced between 328i and 335i, so starting MSRP in low-mid 40s ($43K-$45K) sprinting to $50K with just leather and couple of conveniences. Price difference about 3-5 grand with 328 and about 10+ with 320i (which is also stripped vs. 328i, not just engine). Taking them at face value we get 45 mpg highway vs 33 mpg (AT), good difference. I would caution excuberrance, as I have seen in the past other manufacturers promising outlandish values on their diesels in preanouncements to end up as much as 10 mpg lower after EPA tests (that was the case with new VW diesel). So let's assume 15 thousand miles per year, five years of ownership, 75K miles. Lets assume MSRP of $45K (328i) vs $48K (328d), i.e. we have some options, all miles are highway (for simplicity) - we get:
    1. 328i: 2272 gallons of premium at say $3.75/gal (number vary) = $8522 for five years.
    2. 328d: 1705 gallons of diesel at say $3.90/gal (number vary) = $6647 for five years

    Amount saved: $1874. Anticipated new car price difference: $3-$5K. The only other variable is depreciation. Say we get 5% better depreciation of 328d, say 55% vs. 60% of depreciation $26.4K vs. $27K.

    In conclusion, not including higher taxes and financing (loan, lease), assuming MSRP as benchmark, 328d comes up overall $2500-$3000 less expensive over 5 years. To me it's nothing, especially because:
    1. 328i will likely enjoy better discount at purchase than 328d
    2. If leased, 328i will likely enjoy better money factor than 328d; lower residual may offset that.
    3. People who keep their cars less than 5 years will see even smaller fuel savings.
    4. Diesel prices are even more volataile than gasoline. It is easy to imagine increase of the difference in price per gallon by another 10 or 15 cents.

    There are a lot of other factors that could make the calculus more attractive for the diesel, but there are many other factors that could offset that, too. This was intented to be a demonstration how I would make a calculation if I had all the data, including mixed mileage, trying to take emotion out and account for all variables, not just one that is visible (mpg). I completely understand the gas mileage focus. It is easy to let go and forget about the costs that are already "set", like car payments. They are planned and accounted in home budget, out of sight, out of mind. But the gas bill comes every week or so, varies, even though it is planned, it springs up all the time and every unplanned trip adds to the bill. So it is easy to think that if I save on gas, I will spend less money overall. But that may or may not be true. Without a cold meticulous calculation there is no way to tell. Yet people rush to "do something" in every time gas price jumps 30 cents.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • Warranty= probably a year more.
    Loaners- you will be surprised what some toyota dealerships are offering these days in regards to perks.
    It's totally different from when I was in college and that's not too far back- the non luxury dealerships are getting more sophisticated.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 11,107
    Warranty= probably a year more.

    That can be huge as one expensive fix can run 4 figures easily and if something is going to break, most likely it'll be in that "extra" year.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion AWD
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    I have nothing to add to this besides my thanks- excellent post- interesting when someone runs the numbers- and comes up with a value creative post.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 13,583
    Well said & well thought out my friend - as always!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2017 Pilot Touring AWD, 2019 Tacoma TRD Sport 4WD

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,647
    edited April 2013
    I initially thought BMW will bring 320d. It is actually bringing 328d. . .

    I've been anxiously awaiting the introduction of a BMW diesel that was more representative of what's on offer in the rest of the world. This is a start, but it only comes with an automatic transmission, according to the on-line Roundel piece I read a few days ago.

    All I want is a small diesel in a well-made car with a manual transmission.

    Or, as Charles Shultz put it, I could flap my arms and fly to the moon.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    All I want is a small diesel in a well-made car with a manual transmission.

    A colleague recently purchased a Passat TDI manual and loves it...or a Mazda 6? Not in BMW league but I'd still classify as well-made.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    edited April 2013
    Beware what you wish for. I love manual transmissions, all but one car I have had were MT, but IMHO if there is a case of AT, it is small diesel engine. MT is least suitable for small diesel engines. Short rev range of the engine turns the driving into constant shifting for shifting's sake. Unlike modern gasoline engine (which is very flexible in both low and high rev range), diesel engine makes it really miserable on driver to be in a wrong gear. It either shakes the car violently (too high gear for the revs) or drops the torque of the cliff making passing or merging really scary if you need to execute 2-second gear upshift in the middle of the maneuver. On to of that, in city driving you feel you end up shifing up and down on 5-10 mph speed differentials, so you don't those low vibrations from the engine compartment. How do I know all of that? I drove similarly sized and powered A4 and Peugeout 406, both with manual transmissions. Both of those were considered one of the best diesel engines of their generations.

    Multigear automatic (like 8-speed) is absolutely transmission of choice for a diesel. IMHO, of course.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • alltorquealltorque Posts: 535
    I drove similarly sized and powered A4 and Peugeout 406, both with manual transmissions. Both of those were considered on of best diesel engines of their generations.

    Agree with all of that although small diesels can be OK with an MT. Torque comes in very low down so they'll happily pull you up a cliff in what your mind tells you is too high a gear. ATs are better though. I have a Volvo S60 D5 (185) Geartronic. Nice combination.

    I had 2x Peugeot 406's. Probably the best riding cars I've ever had. That was when Peugeot made great chassis/suspension set-ups. No more, it seems. :cry: That Pug diesel and the VW Group 1.9 TDi PD engines are the stuff of legend and probably did more to move Europe to small diesels than any other. The 130bhp 1.9 TDi PD in my old Skoda Fabia vRS was a brilliant combination in a light car, and the 6MT was just built for playing with the mountain of torque the engine produced. Happy days. :)
  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,179
    Dino, the engine in the 328d is a 2 liter 180hp, 280 lbs, BMW was going to call it 320d, but changed it to 328d. The car will only come with the 8 spd auto, which will work very well with the engine. BMW has been VERY tight lipped about the MPG of the car, however, many have guessed that mid 40's is doable on the highway, and mid 30's in town. This engine will go in the Wagon as well as the X3. Road and Track has driven the car and they were impressed, it was a short drive, I'm sure a full report will be out soon.

    The only way to make up the price difference is to hold on to the car and drive the wheels off it. Currently diesel in phoenix is .40 cents less than premium. Do I expect it to stay like this, no, but the price fluxuates enough that it doesn't bother me. I have owned three diesel cars/trucks in my past 1986 MB SDL, and 1981 Chevy Suburban diesel and 1996 ram truck 2500 with the cummins diesel.. Both cars were driven well into the 200K miles range the truck 175K before it was sold.. The modern diesels have taken care of the short comings of those diesels.

    Diesel's are not for everybody, just like Lexus, BMW and Audi's are not for everybody.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    edited April 2013
    180 hp for diesel is a lot. I think calling it 328d is appropriate here, as the 280 lb-ft torque is even larger than 328i (much shorter though, of course). IMHO the renaming to 328d is also a tell regarding the expected price. If past history is to guide us, it is reasonable to expect price differential similar to that between E90-based 335d and 335i.

    The 45 mpg is now mentioned on their website. I remain slightly skeptical, but if BMW learned VW lesson, perhaps it will be more accurate. VW made a huge blunder preanouncing in big letters over 50 mpg on the new Jetta and delivering nowhere near that number after EPA testing. I was joking that they must have mixed up kilometers per imperial gallon with mpg. It wasn't that bad, but the blunder was obvious. The embarrasment was so big that VW challenged their users to a survey on real life numbers. Talking spin doctors - Joe from Ohio says he got 56 mpg, so should you!

    I also heard that EPA mpg number is based not just on real testing, but also on extrapolation calculations based on that testing. It is basically is a good predictor for traditional gas engines, but it reportedly completely breaks down on hybrids (overestimates mpg) and has some significant flaws on diesels (presumable underestimates). I don't know if that is really true, but it would make sense why some hybrids are so off when it comes to the mileage.

    Many immediately smelled big conspiracies and foul play, but to me a botched methodology due to using calculations outside of their intended class of problem (happens all the time in engineering), seem much more reasonable explanation for the blunder. I simply don't think Toyota, Ford, or Honda were purposly misleading consumers. They simply run tests and calcs according to EPA guidelines, but those turned to be wrong for new technology.

    I agree with your last statement - diesels are not for everybody. They definitely have their place in personal vehicle market (e.g. taxi cabs, SUVs, pickup trucks), especially for those traveling often large distances at constant speeds. American aversion was a bit overdone. However, they are not cure for cancer, either.

    I wonder how much more 328d will cost. If they misprice it, they may kill it before it shows up.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    Guys a with a little help from google you can get most of the info

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/bmw-328d-quick-spin-review.html

    I think the d will be an interesting car- but the volume will come from the reg 328- the real question on the whole bmw line is how long they will be able to Charge so much more for less car - better options for 40k- I mean even the ugly TL has a sh-t load more standard, and can be had for a massive discount- awd and is larger and more powerful and will run a lot more with less maintence for thousands less then the avg 328- now we all know most 3s are leased but for those who keep cars 5 years why would you go new bmw?

    I'm still amazed at some of the non standard features on a sudo lux car- it's amazing.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    They have been able to charge more for "less car" (using your definition anyway) for fifty years now, so I don't know - perhaps another fifty years? ;)

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,307
    edited April 2013
    The definition is fact, just look at the Msrps -and what comes standard :surprise: z
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,647
    edited April 2013
    end up driving these things these days are so far from what BMW used to be that it's a sociology study. BMW is now a volume seller of vehicles to whomever can be convinced to buy (or more likely, lease) them. The enthusiasts who built the brand are no longer necessary.

    The door's over there -- don't let it hit you on the way out.

    As usual, I was a day late and a dollar short. By the time I was able to afford a BMW (actually purchased, to keep) things were headed down the chute. They don't miss me, but I sometimes pine for what might have been.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    I meant to say, "stuff" is not everything. It is possible to sell "more car" with less "stuff". Lotus would be an example. My point BMW has always been more expensive in relation to Acura, Lexus, or Audi. They have always got away with it. Will they in the future? Only time will tell.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,179
    Dino when it comes to MPG the diesel engine will make more MPG as the engine get miles. In regards to the VW, when new the Golf, Jetta and other VW cars with the TDI get good miles when new, however, the more miles on the engine the better the MPG, on the Diesel forum people post their real world MPG and it is amazing to see the difference. I'm thinking the same will be said with the 328d, put 10-15K on the engine and a true mid 40s on the highway would be doable. The true value of the diesel is not to own it for 3 years (lease) and then turn it in, but to own it for 10 yrs.

    In regards to price, I would assume base would be around 38-40K. It will be interesting to see where MB will price the C class diesel and GLK diesel. AS well as the Audi A4 Diesel, and from what I read the Audi TDI will have more HP 180hp and 240lbs... An interesting time for diesels in the US.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 3,029
    I really wanted a BMW Bavaria, in 1972.
    Really, really wanted one – and could afford one.
    I was overruled by my then wife.
    [ Bought a Volvo. ]
    In mid-2011 I ordered a 335, for European Delivery.
    It still had enough BMW-ness for me. Then.
    I do NOT see a BMW that will likely tempt me when the lease is up, later this year.
    ‘down the chute’ in 2 years?
    - Ray
    Just one data point . . .
    2016 BMW 340i
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,584
    ray....I concur with you. The "new" BMWs just aren't "doing it" for me. I have no desire for a diesel. While their 4 cyl turbos are interesting, they sort of fall down on the NVH scale.

    They keep moving ever so further away from the "sport" part of sports sedans/coupes.
    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,647
    edited April 2013
    I do NOT see a BMW that will likely tempt me when the lease is up, later this year.
    ‘down the chute’ in 2 years?


    Good to hear from you, Ray.

    They'll never miss us, but we will miss them, to some extent.

    Oddly, my TSX offers me more involvement with the car than today's BMWs -- DIY-friendly owners' manual, nice manual transmission, real tires (with a spare) and a dipstick.

    Nowdays it's necessary to have your BMW flatbedded to the dealer to get the battery replaced. That's kind of a big deal here in AZ where summer battery failure is a fairly regular occurrence. Granted, the battery's in the trunk and is unlikely to pack up for the person who leased the car, but my last car was like that and it required two battery replacements during the time I owned it. Both were performed by me where the car sat when it wouldn't start.

    Then there's that electric steering thing.
  • OK, so I did test drive the Infiniti G37 and BMW 328 and 528. Here is what I think
    G37 - Did not feel luxury at all. Also, not great in driving. So this is off my list now.
    328 - Wow!! What a car. Loved the way it drove. Simply amazing. I would have bought this one except the size. Little too small for family of 5. So thought will drive 528.
    528 - Not as good of a drive as 328, but still great. The price tag is very high. Was thinking should try out 535 since with v6, it might be a better drive for the bigger car, but again due to price shock did not even try it.

    So now I am back to Lexus ES 350.
    With what I have learned from this forum, now I am interested in trying the Avalon (limited). It come out about 2K less that lexus and also has wider backseat. So want to try it and see how it feels.
    Another thing I have started to think about is to lease a MB. Will try the C250 and C350 and see how they feel and how big is the backseat.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    Have you thought about the Hyundai Genesis? It's probably in same price point as the LS or C but will give you GS/5/E amenities.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    edited April 2013
    Just curious - what is your reason for large back seat? Do you often carry three full size adults, or is your kid(s) over 6-3 tall? Just curious, you obviously have reasons, but I often found out that imposed search parameters people use are often imaginary rather than real. For example, non-existent boat that "could" be pulled by the vehicle (that's why "need" for a big truck based SUV, or mother-in-law visiting town once a year being a reason to get seven passenger vehicle). In other words, the air is as comfortable in 328 than as in Avalon. ;)

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • I have three kids. Two will be in child seat (not the rear facing or the booster). Just two regular car seat. The third is older kid in the middle, not requiring car seat. I tried that on 328. Did not work well. Very uncomfortable.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 20,791
    Was thinking should try out 535 since with v6, it might be a better drive for the bigger car, but again due to price shock did not even try it.

    This was probably a typo on your part but the 535i, like all 6 cylinder BMWs, uses an inline six.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    Need a minivan? ;)

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • Already have one. Need a sedan that can sit 5 comfortably. Currently have a Camry and it does the job well.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 13,583
    I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I've got 3 kids. For family hauling duties we've got a 2011 Honda Pilot. My DD is a 2011 328xi which is actually smaller than the current generation 328xi that you drove. 90% of the time it is just me in the car. If I need to take 2 kids with me, I can put their car seats (high back booster seats) in the back of my BMW. They actually prefer the back if my 2001 Honda Prelude. My point is that I don't need 2 cars that'll fit all 5 of us.

    Like dino001 said, so many times we say we need cars for that "what if" that comes along once or twice a year.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2017 Pilot Touring AWD, 2019 Tacoma TRD Sport 4WD

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    Howa about 328 wagon? it is just about to be released. Same driving experience as sedan (I know, I have one previous gen, there is no difference from sedan), same legroom, but better access to back seat and more back headroom than sedan. Since your passengers are kids, not adults, legroom is not as critical, but improved access maj just do the trick. And you get extra cargo space for kids' stuff. If you wait another six months, there will be 328/335 GT, more legroom in the back, better access.

    Think about it - if the car is really for you and only sometimes for the kids, 328 wagon could really be for you.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,270
    the one thing that the wagon won't have happens to be the key issue. Back seat width.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • I understand what you are saying, but my "what if" happens everyday. I prefer to use the van on long drives or when there is lot of cargo to hold. On regular basis I would like to use the sedan.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,270
    someone over on the Accord thread just posted about how much they love their new Accord V6, and compared it to an ES. Pretty much all the features, and 12K less. and a big back seat.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 13,583
    Understood

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2017 Pilot Touring AWD, 2019 Tacoma TRD Sport 4WD

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 13,583
    I don't know if I told you or not Dino, but they had an F3X 328i wagon at the ny auto show in (I think) deep sea blue, & it was drop dead gorgeous. By far my favorite looker of the F30 line.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2017 Pilot Touring AWD, 2019 Tacoma TRD Sport 4WD

  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,584
    ilexus....thanks for sharing your impressions.

    first time BMW drivers usually have the same impression as you.

    Do yourself a favor and test drive an Audi A4 and an Acura TL, too.
    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    Since your passengers are kids, not adults, legroom is not as critical

    I find the opposite...when kids are sitting in a forward facing seat (booster, etc) their little feet stick straight out...marking up the previously beautiful seat backs. Maybe not legroom...but seat depth would help...or really really short seats so their legs could bend :)
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    Yeah, it does look nice on pictures. Deep sea blue is also color of my E91 (BTW, the new one has letter code F31). Funny it was my third choice (crimson red was first, le mans blue was second, but neither was available, as they discountinued red for that last year and le mans blue required M-package, well over 1 grand extra, which I did not order). Yet, when I saw it on the platform in Munich and ever since, I thought it can't be better. The only true downside of it, it is a dust magnet, especially in the back. Just like black, if not more. My previous red STI and blue WRX did not require as much cosmetic attention, as this one.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    Did not think of that, you make sense. So it seems for kids out of the booster seat the backseat space is not an issue, but yeah, I see your point on the real young ones.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 5,544
    Didn't Accord just get smaller in this generation?

    BTW, it must be top of the line, because that rental from Hertz I drove (I was surprised myself that Honda sold a rental car) was unimpressive to say it charitably.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 11,107
    What he means is a car is not its options that come standard.

    A car is the chassis, suspension, interior and exterior materials and finishes, engineering, design, looks, handling, power, performance, Gas mileage, and refinement.

    Some people buy bells, whistles, gadgets, and doo-dads. Some people buy the car. I'm in the latter group. After all, I got an Audi with just 2 options, DSG transmission, and Sport Package (admittedly that includes like 3 or 4 things).

    You can add a million gadgets and options to a cheap car, it's still a cheap car with a lot of content.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion AWD
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