Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

pg48477

According to our host Pat and all magazines, this cars are in the same segment. If you think otherwise maybe you in the wrong thread:)

blueguydotcom

Would be interesting to see the demographic breakdown of buyers: age, sex, and income. The age of the IS300 average buyer is about 30, the lowest for all Toyota/Lexus products (even Scion).

It's common in parts of southern california. Orange County is teeming with IS300s driven by kids. Same with Mira Mesa, CA.

speedracer3

Orange County is teeming with IS300s driven by kids. Same with Mira Mesa, CA.

Same here, the IS 300 is a teenager car around this part of the Sunshine State.

gpwatfrd

The TL is a brand new redesign which is an improvement over it's predecessor in more ways than one. So it does not surprise me when the sales figures reflect significant volume in April. Get back to me in a year from now.

danny1878

I only posted a sales figure comparison and I didnt make any statement at all. Dont be delusional. It's the market's statement that shows these car are going to the right direction. I cant change the market's statement neither can you.

There is no "overall better" car, one can value luxury more than performance, while others dont and some prefer both. Even in performance dept. alone it consist of acceleration, cornering, slalom etc. None of these sedans has them all.

About getting back to you a year from now, how about going back at time when your favourite car was new. What was its highest record? :-)

I hope its apple versus apple, not burger :-)

blueguydotcom

I'm not entirely certain why someone is still so enamored with owning something popular. I buy what I like and the world be damned. Apparently, not all of us live for ourselves...

grri03

The whining back and forth about the sales volumes is really appealing (not). But the point that came through at the end is true: All the cars in this segment are very good at doing what they're made to do and selecting between them reflects more on the priorities of the buyer than the superiority of one car versus another. The TL is selling well because it is currently fitting the priorities of more buyers with $30-40 K to spend on a performance sedan than the others. Yes, a big part of that is subjective (new model/styling, buzz from good reviews) but when you take a bunch of cars that all perform great, its the subjective stuff that makes the difference.

I bought the TL because it performs great, I never had a problem with torque steer (for the information of those overly attached to RWD) and in the end the styling and technology (love the bluetooth) were better than the rest. Especially for the $.

You guys pick what you like, the world be damned but everyone else is buying what they like, and a lot of us like the TL best.

kdshapiro

a car that isn't next to you at every stop light?
Who cares really? Some may, I don't

That is one nice thing about the IS300. Nice car that isn't too common.
Sales could be better

kdshapiro

Since I don't play the more is necessarily better game, I will only say if one adds up all of the 3 series sales in all engine sizes in all body styles it exceeds 6711.

pat

I'm always much more interested in reading how individuals feel about different characteristics of different vehicles than anything about sales figures. I've never yet met one person in the Town Hall or anywhere else who bases a buying decision on number sold for any given vehicle.

Why not just discuss our opinions of the merits and demerits of the cars in this class? I find it hard to believe that any of you have really formed your opinons about these vehicles based on how many have been sold...

wco81

I heard Acura didn't think MP3 was good enough and opted for DVD-A, a format which doesn't really have much content.

Maybe the other manufacturers are more attuned to the market?

blueguydotcom

Most people don't have HDTV and only about 50% of the network content is now HD. Heck, I don't even watch TV really (Arrested Development and...uh, the NFL) but I still bought HD. If I'm gonna watch TV I'm gonna see it at its best.

If I were to record, I'd buy an HD recorder. I could record with a VCR (the MP3 of video). But I wouldn't want that kind of video quality.

Likewise if I bought a TL, I'd find DVD-A content because it's far superior to CDs. Far. And MP3? Forgetaboutit...junk.

mdhauke

Your analogy doesn't make sense, you are comparing two different things at two vastly different prices. She is listing vehicles in the same class that are about the same price. Get a grip.

rderizans

Just a note on BMW using GM transmissions. I had a '99 328i with a GM automatic and have to say it is the best automatic I've ever driven, including the one in my G35x right now. Smooth to a fault, quick to downshift, always had the right gear selected, and never gave me a bit of problems.

Give GM credit where credit is due...my understanding is that their automatics are benchmarks for the rest of the automotive world.

shipo

It is my understanding that the GM built transmission in the 323i/328i was actually a BMW design that GM's French factory simply executed. I cannot honestly say that I've ever heard GM being praised as having the benchmark automatic gearbox. Funny thing is that during the 1960s and 1970s, it was GM paying Chrysler royalties on quite a few of the parts in their "TurboHydro" automatics of day. Go figure. :-/

Best Regards,
Shipo

ponytrekker

So then the F150 kicks all those cars' asses?

merc1

Has anyone here seen the June Road and Track comparo that they're talking about on the CTS board? If so what cars were tested? As usual everyone in America gets their magazines before me.

M

danny1878

I understand that its hard to know the difference between a truck and a sedan, a horse and a pony, an apple and an egg if they were on sale (:-o

kdshapiro

$38,000, 0 to 60 in 5.5 seconds. R&T mentions 545i in the same breath. $12,000 cheaper than CTS. Value equation pointed heavily in this direction.

Seems like a winner to me.

speedracer3

Go to the link below.

http://www.whatsnextblog.com/archives/000254.asp#more

I already have an Audi, if I get a Beemer next I'll be set.

kahunah

LOL. Kinda gives new meaning to the term "performance". ;-)

kyfdx

I'm printing this out for my wife.. I think I'm getting screwed.. or not...

riez

7 Cars. All automatics. All with mediocre tires (mostly all-seasons). BMW 530i (non-Sport) the most expensive as tested at $54,000. The new Chrysler 300 the least expensive around $34,000.

Other cars included Jag S-type, A6, E320, and S80 T6.

The $43,000 CTS, 3.6L w/Sport Pkg, won the comparison.

wco81

What do people with hundreds or thousands of CDs do? Replace them with DVD-A discs, assuming there is that much content on DVD-A?

Most car stereo makers are supporting MP3s in one way or another. They now support MP3 files on CDs and the next thing will probably be support for the portable MP3 players which are selling like hotcakes.

Whatever nuances which DVD-A may reproduce, they would get lost in the noisy car environment.

Meanwhile, MP3s (any any other lossy or lossless codecs) will give you the convenience of having your entire library at once.

These OEM makers should be embracing digital audio, not being snobs about it.

pat

is, um, interesting and fun, but let's keep on topic here and leave it be...

speedracer3

The survey does relate to the brand of cars we are talking about. More subjective reasons to buy a specifc brand?. I don't see the harm of discussing the article while we keep it clean and relate it to cars. Waddya say?

qbrozen

You do realize that the people with hundreds or thousands of CDs can still play them in Acura's DVD-A system, right? So there is no need to replace them with DVD-A .... unless you WANT to.

blueguydotcom

What do people with hundreds or thousands of CDs do? Replace them with DVD-A discs, assuming there is that much content on DVD-A?

It still plays regular CDs. Just as a DVD player at home will still play CDs.

Most car stereo makers are supporting MP3s in one way or another. They now support MP3 files on CDs and the next thing will probably be support for the portable MP3 players which are selling like hotcakes.

Sure I can get a dension icelink for an ipod and fully control and recharge the system while listening to mp3s in my BMW. So?

Whatever nuances which DVD-A may reproduce, they would get lost in the noisy car environment.


I think the TL owners can refute that. There's no comparing 5.1 sound to 2 channel stereo. It's like the leap from black and white to color TV. Really it's just richer and filled with more detail but the same basic message is there.

Heck, I'd love to have a DTS system in a car as the moment I see that acronym on DVD I'm excited. The sound is much crisper than Dolby 5.1.

Meanwhile, MP3s (any any other lossy or lossless codecs) will give you the convenience of having your entire library at once.

That's convenient. Yep. Given the choice between stellar sound and quanity, I'll always choose quality.

These OEM makers should be embracing digital audio, not being snobs about it.

They are embracing technology - the BEST technology.

This reminds me of luddites crying about the shift to CDs 15 years ago...

kyfdx

This reminds me of our local car reviewer in the paper. From about 1993 until 2000, every time he tested a car with a CD player, he would insert an opinion about how you couldn't appreciate the better sound quality in a car, and that it was a waste of money over just a cassette player.

Hello?? The reason for the CD player is because we have all these CDs at home!! I guess he was converting all of his to cassette.

He was a really good reviewer otherwise, but that used to drive me nuts.

wale_bate1

So when does the A3 sportback come out?

I think I could use an Audi.

LOL!

fjm1

The G35 has a tape deck. I can't decide what to think about that.

kyfdx

This is a good thing... I assume an in-dash CD also.

A lot of books on tape, motivational tapes, etc. are only available on cassette. I think having both is a bonus.

Unless, that is standard and CD is extra cost.. In that case, never mind.

regards,
kyfdx

speedracer3

My 2003 Audi A4 has a tape deck. 2004 models no longer have tape decks only CD Players. I have a huge collection of tapes, boy now I feel old.

kdshapiro

Every tape always plays, not so for CDs.

cheerioboy26

I use mine in my G to connect my Sirius PNP.

blueguydotcom

Wow, haven't owned a tape in 14 years.

someone mentiioned CDs not working in the car...ah, what do people do to their CDs? Heard the same about DVDs and video games. Again, same question.

Keep the CD in its case, extract it, put it in the player. Never leave it out or sitting on anything. Simple concept, simple execution and simple way to keep CDs going strong decades later.

kdshapiro

Actually there are some studies on CD rot. It's a very real thing that can effect cds over time. The effects can be mitigated by using good cds, but the study implied you cannot rely on cds being there year after year.

Actually if yall didn't know, the top side of the cd, which has the aluminum is more suseptable to scratching than the underside. If the aluminum is scratched, the cd will be rendered unreadable.

kyfdx

Wow..what a timely topic.... kd.. you must have the same article in the paper today as we did. I learned a lot that I didn't know, especially about the top side being the easiest to damage. I think most people have problems with CD-RW that they have burned.. CD-R usually give much less trouble.

regards,
kyfdx

blueguydotcom

I have a friend who was looking for the pin holes 10 years ago when we'd go to music trader. all the cds I got as a teen still work. guess i've been lucky.

jrock65

Nothing really new in this segment right now. I guess the 2005 G35 redo will stir things up slightly, then the segment will get a significant jolt with the new BMW 3 and Lexus IS next year.

wco81

How does CD hold up in a closed car in the middle of summer?

There used to be a brand of blank cassettes with the casing made of Lexan, to withstand heat in a mobile environment.

Never have problems reading CDs but DVDs might be problematic on some cheap DVD players. Tapes of course tend to jam and get eaten up by poor mechanisms, not to mention all the oxide flakes from the tape gumming up the tape playback heads and rollers over time.

That is why some people can laugh at MP3 but flash media and hard disk should be fairly durable, not to mention not having to swap out media because you can have a large collection at one time.

fjm1

They better come correct with the new IS or they're going to get hammered. Dealerships can't give the current version away. They're selling less than 1,000 unit a month nationwide. Probably at cost.

If the 3 series gets the same exterior treatment as the rest of the BMWs, Acura and Infiniti are going to run away with the market.

shipo

There are plenty of rumblings that BMW won't be so foolish as to let the next gen 3-Series follow in the footsteps of the 5 & 7 Series cars. From all of the "Spy" photos that I've seen so far, the car looks good and restrained with no Banglization apparent, so far at least. That gives me hope because when the E60 5-Series was this far along, its horrid looks were already quite obvious.

So, assuming that BMW builds a nice looking car, they seem to have a number of technical goodies waiting in the wings that will make the car more than competitive with what will then be on the market. Time will tell.

Best Regards,
Shipo

speedracer3

When will it be released?. 2005-2006?.

chrisboth

They raised the price if a 530 by 7k or somthing and they are selling like hotcakes - whats the price increase expected to be on an already 40k loaded car? Man this thing could be 50 loaded for 430i!! !!

shipo

Selling like hot cakes? Ummm, not from where I sit. Yes, the 5-Series numbers are about 15% higher than last year (as a whole, the 530i is only up by about 1%), but so what? Last years' numbers were depressed because the E60 was waiting in the wings. My bet is that when the "New Car Bubble" is fully deflated, the E60 will be relegated to the status of mediocrity by the market and by automotive historians.

Best Regards,
Shipo

oniac

2channel vs. 5.1 or DTS. True audiophiles listen to 2 channel stereo systems. 5.1 or DTS are for movies or listening to concert music. Pure clear music can be achieved the most on 2 channel systems. That's a FACT. Now some people specially in Home systems listen to regular CD's on 5.1 or 6.1 bec. it makes them feel like they're in a theater or a concert hall (sound bounces & echoes)If you're into clean & natural sound 2 channel is still the best.

blueguydotcom

2channel vs. 5.1 or DTS. True audiophiles listen to 2 channel stereo systems. 5.1 or DTS are for movies or listening to concert music. Pure clear music can be achieved the most on 2 channel systems. That's a FACT. Now some people specially in Home systems listen to regular CD's on 5.1 or 6.1 bec. it makes them feel like they're in a theater or a concert hall (sound bounces & echoes)If you're into clean & natural sound 2 channel is still the best.

The whole point of DVD-A is to put you in the center of the music.

Can't be done with 2 channel.

And someone mentioned the 5 series...sales are way up on 5 series so I think regardless of how people are grumbling about the looks it's still selling strongly.

The much maligned 7 is selling strongly too. Now that horrid X3? BMW can't give that thing away. Or the Z4.

kyfdx

This is just rumor gleaned from following other BMW forums...

In Germany, there may be new E90s hitting the road this November or December. But, any major production would be after the first of the year.

For N.A.: Out sometime in 2005, but as an '06 model. I've heard everything from April to October, with the consensus being toward the latter end of that time frame.

No facts here, though.

regards,
kyfdx

speedracer3

Thanks for the info. Wife has announced she wants a 3 series for her next car, and her current lease is up at the end of 2005. Would rather go with the new iteration (if not Bangled).