Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

chrisboth

I wont try and convince you but i wont let other G owner be steered astray by falsities or misinformation.

MOST mods that improve performance also improve gas mileage if they relate to A/F ratio increases. If I put a plenum on my car and the air flow is better and my A/F ratio is better the effect is a more effecient car. If you suggest that I can get 4 mpg only from my dreams then perhaps once you have some expereince in modding cars lightly you can join my dream. If you haven;t modded a car you may not understand that air is your friend and air is free. It contains the O2 that powers the little pistons with the help of a detonating catalyst (petrol). The more air in the ratio the more power is extracted given a FIXED amount of fuel.

I have a hard time seeing where you miss this but look at it this way. If the A/F ratio is 10 to 1 stock and I put a mod on that gets me 12 to 1 (which most intake mods do add air!) the results are more power which = less work for the motor for the same loads and speeds = better gas milage. Most people driving modded G's are there reporting 25-29. Most stock ones are 17-23. Not scientific study but not it's rocket science either.

chrisboth

"There's a weird thing going in the above sentences. You never had a bad experience with VW service, yet your car was in the shop 18 times in a year? That to me signals what my two year ownership of VW confirmed - it's an incompetent company."

It is some weird stuff I'm saying but you're correct..the manufacturer is losing it and they are in disarray. The phaeton is dead on arrival, the beetle is about had it's run - what are they going to make it look like now?, the passat was a great car except for the demons that live in the electrical system and it's about a year past it's sylish life and what was that 40k W-8 POS motor that's slower than a VQ all about? Luxury brand remaking is good if your customers dont stress about getting it home very night.

In light of all this the dealer was great and the service guys were very nice and gave me loaner cars when they didn't have to and were professional, timeley and very courteous but I wish I didn't have to find out they were nice. They made the most of thier opportunity to correct the uncorrectable. Jim Wynn in Norristown PA by the way. In the words of the guy who handed me a check for all my money back less 200 bucks for mileage, "Once they get a bug you can't kill it". He said the 7 series is the biggest electrical nightmare in germany right now as all the cool electrical modules and miles of fiber optics and 30 way headrests make it fail at almost 2% rate.

Never german is my motto even as I represent my friends and family at the audi dealer in thier purchases...yes i love to negotiate and i buy cars for fun and free for them (thier money of course). And I still give the passat thumbs up for being the best family sedan out there for the $ - as long as you get a good one...quite a caveat but I'm surprise when I tell people about my expereince how they still want the passat...great car for them...wonder what will save them now?

kdshapiro

"I wont try and convince you but i wont let other G owner be steered astray by falsities or misinformation."

Huh? Since when does manufacturers that provide mods the G have the lock and key on plenum upgrades. Breathing easier implies more gas, not more efficiency. There is a little thing called the throttle body and cylinder design that also contributes to the overall fuel efficency.

But we are way off topic here and talking about misinformation, I would like an Infiniti dealer to come on by to this forum and say there is no warranty issue, and that mods such as yours increase performance, average gas mileage, efficiency and reliability as you claim. For that Infiniti dealer will be getting my business next, no questions asked.

chrisboth

G35driver.com You can be schooled all your willing...

"Since when does manufacturers that provide mods the G have the lock and key on plenum upgrades. Breathing easier implies more gas, not more efficiency. There is a little thing called the throttle body and cylinder design that also contributes to the overall fuel efficency."

Lock and key on what? If you can weld you can do this but theres no point on a BMW - the plenum is not sloped in the front! Hell the plenum design is completely different on a straigh six. You can add a hood scoop ram air deal like my dads duster had - go for it. Only this car [G] as I am aware would benefit from a plenum change. Most cars already have a level plenum! So i guess we do have a lock and key...

The throttle body is fine and so is the cylinder size and design...what are you talking about. Those things work well even with a choking plenum!

No infiniti dealer will ever condone aftermarket mods. They usually are too ignorant to understand that they have to fix the car unless they can prove the mod created the problem ...You want the answer? Speak to my lemon attorney who deals in warranty cases on the side. You have more rights than you give yourself credit for.

The consumer shouldn't be held down by the ignorant whims of a unknowledgable service rep or tech or dealers. The ones I talk to will say hey great mod but not in front of thier anti-mod manager. Obviously if a dealer comes out and says mod all you want, he'll be dealing with idoits who botch thier installs and act like nothing was even touched by them let alone modded....

It's cut and dry in form but dealers will try and manhandle you. AS with most others that try to screw me out of my money they will lose. If you do want to talk to a dealer who is mod ornery Grubbs Infiniti acctually builds race cars and test cars and offer a full service tuner shop where you can buy NISMO and a host of aftermarket products intalled by them. Don't be fooled by the never been there's. My dealer never saw mods until I and subsequently a few others brought in modded G's last year. They have been educated and will continue to be as long as the trend for getting that easily obtained 300 hp is around.

I used to be skeptical too. When I asked these questions the anwers were there for the plucking. The anti mod attitude takes a while to get over and then you see the light. Maybe you should buy an infiniti now that you know all this great stuff!

kdshapiro

NISMO is sponsored and supported by Nissan, just like in Europe some supercharged induction systems are supported and installed by BMW.

Again, I am not saying these mods don't do something, but I do not believe the Infiniti engineers were too stupid or ignorant to miss obvious design points that would weaken an otherwise great car - when a third party shop comes in with a fix for $500 that will increase, performance, reliability and gas mileage. That's what you've been implying/saying and I'm contesting.

speedracer3

Chris,

I won't go into horrible detail, but be warned that NMAC is a absolute nightmare to deal with if you have a problem. I still think some of Nissan/Infinti cars out there are very good, but from my dealings with them after my last Maxima lease, they have lost me for good. Love the product, hate the company.

chrisboth

Sounds like a nightmare speedracer. Dealing with corporate morons in VW was in my mind so difficult as it infuriates people to no end and they just go away and buy another car. Your case may be different but when you actually have a leg to stand on such as a lemon law.. and an attorney - things start to get way easier in my experience.

I actaully told VWOA i simply wanted a warranty that would keep me happy in the car after the 2/24000 was up and free from unlimitied repair costs for a young car. They laughed and told me flat out no...they want you to go away and or get an attorney - they dont want to deal with an unhappy consumer. The frim I used has pre-litigation programs with VW where they settle 20 cars at a time....but they cant give me an extended warranty. It never even occurred to me to sue them until she laughed at me!
I had a such a good set of fact in my favor the attorney i hired told me in 15 minutes I would win and the next I heard VWOA was back on the phone asking how i would like the buy back guy to obtain my car in exchange for a check.

To the point that the designers are stupid: Look all the G had to have was enough HP to dethrone a couple of stlawart sedans from the top of the hill. If it gets better HP or equal for that matter to the class contenders, what's the problem. I would bet that 3.0 in your car has some more power stashed in there..it's a function of exterior design in the Z /G case...money is probably a bigger one. Hell we could put forged internals in all the cars and bigger cams...at some point the marketers take over and say lets build the car with x horsepower and y looks and z price. If it sells then the slanted plenum is not such a big deal...except to those of us who want the power and dont have the slanted hood of the Z. Turn out it fits in the Z too if you take out the hood liner!

No engine sold today has all the perfect design attributes...they are all filled with trade offs unless you get exotic. This trade off was a sloped hood for 20 HP. And it's a good move obviously since they sell Z's like candy and the engine does pretty well gettting them 1320 feet in 13.5 stock. Thats carerra territory almost so while you wonder about that others were saying hey - we can do better and they do. This seem like voo doo to you the way it used to to me! It's ok KD - deep breath....

speedracer3

Getting back to the point. The VQ is a very tunable engine, it is no wonder that Nissan literally uses it in nearly its entire product line. Nissan has varied the HP rating by applying minor tweaks to the engine or exhaust system. You are living proof that getting more juice out of the VQ can be done inexpensively in the aftermarket world as well. As we discussed, the risk is being denied warranty service if something goes wrong. Solution is either have 1)A good dealer 2) A good mechanic.

As to your rant about why companies don't give you the maximum potential in your engine, go figure. My Audi 1.8T with the right chip program can generate 200hp. Why do they give a measly 170hp?..my thought, so they don't trounce their V6s.

chrisboth

the audi can actually get a 70hp increase from a chip i hear. High boost has it's own set of risks tho...and that risk everyone keeps talking about is more like the risk (for my minor mods anyway) that the owner wont have the fortitude to actually get something they deserve and will cave...the law is the law

cdnpinhead

it's certainly a P.T. Barnum moment.

niraj724

Hello everyone
i have been quoted 34000 for a demo 2004 TL, auto with nav, silver/ebony, rear spoiler, protection package and side moulding. Should i take this car? It has 1400 miles. Is demo car considered a used car?
All opinions would be appreciated.

PLEASE BE QUICK AS I HAVE TO RESPOND BY TOMORROW!!!

kdshapiro

If it were me I wouldn't. Demo cars get treated very badly, probably wasn't broken in according to manufacturers recommendations. For a few bucks more you could get a new model. If you skip the nav you can get it for $31K.

blueguydotcom

I'd say 30k for it max.

dhanley

I finally got a good drive in a 5-speed 9-5 aero. It's my favorite so far from this topic. There was one at the dealer with the ventilated seats ( this is AWESOME ) and 3,500 miles "used" for a little over 30K.
 

Highs:
 * ventilated sport seats fit me perfectly.
 * top safety
 * quiet, comfy, and cool
 * huge trunk
 

lows:
 * still some turbo lag
 * handling ok, not great
 * idle sort of rough

Now i'm really thinking it over. So far this is the only one that's made me really cognate.
 

I still don't believe the g35 hp/mpg increase based on the plenum. Nissan'd sell lots more of them if they got that much more power and economy out of a simple mod.

Sat in a TL, but these cars are just not designed for someone with my bodyframe, so i didn't drive it.

dave

mariner7

measures emotion of new car purchase, in addition to reliability. The Germans still do very well. VW finishes first among large manufacturers, MB ties for first overall with Infiniti. Note that Nissan does better than Toyota and Honda.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0405/26/autos-163346.htm

chrisboth

Very interesting...that's where the American makers lose over and over. Depsite top #'s in all JD categories...who gets emotional nonetheless passionate about thier car. I love my and felt very good about my passat. Nissan has always done better than the other japanese makers in this regard...z car baby.

gpwatfrd

I would never go near a demo. Most of them are used and abused by the dealership.

danny1878

Sales News for may 04

1. TL 7177 units
2. ES 7099 units
3. G35 3394 units sedan
4. G35 2732 units Coupe
5. TSX 3585 units

kyfdx

Weird.. the TSX is outselling the G35 sedan? I see probably 5-6 G35s a day.. and maybe one TSX per week. How could they sell over 3500 in one month, when they are only selling 15K-20K per year?

That doesn't seem right.

regards,
kyfdx

qbrozen

since TSX was number 5, I have to assume that first digit should be a 2, not a 3.

danny1878

No, that is the correct number for TSX sales. This is the link : http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1000?mid=2004060256078&mime=asc.

It surprised me too.

merc1

The G35 Coupe moves 2700+ units a month?!?!? That is a lot of coupes in an even tougher market segment (coupes).

M

designman

I see a lot of G coupes around the NY area. Sales don't always make sense when they are skewed to certain locations. For instance, the 7 isn't doing well? You'd never know it around NY. Seems I'm always staring into that big 'ol fat ugly butt.

kyfdx

Okay.... I wonder where they are selling them? If you go to the local dealer, he has 30-40 TLs on the lot.. and 2 TSXs. I'm not going to doubt their published figures, but I live in a metropolitan area, and I almost never see one.

regards,
kyfdx

billyperks

Because you don't see them they are no selling?

Get real buddy- you are only focussing on your Metropolitan region, Honda sales figure is on a national basis.

Would they publish a materially incorrect number like that?

kyfdx

I "said" : "I don't doubt them...." But, I've shopped for them, and the local dealers (two) have almost no inventory, and I almost never see them.... The post was about my personal experience. If you have a personal experience, perhaps you could share it with us, "buddy".

regards,
kyfdx

wco81

Isn't the TSX a lot cheaper than either of the G35 models?

So there are more potential buyers for it since more people could afford it.

blueguydotcom

Would they publish a materially incorrect number like that? </I.

Yes and the fact it was listed last is a clear sign they had a typo.

designman

"...the fact it was listed last is a clear sign they had a typo."

There are no clear signs here. They could have put it last because of the combined G35 sedan/coupe numbers. I see a lot of TSXs in the NY area. Also, I was at an Acura dealer recently and saw plenty of them on the lots. I think sales vary greatly according to location.

blueguydotcom

Checked Honda News and Acura did move 3500 TSXs in May. Wow. My apologies.

designman

No problem. It would be interesting to see sales according to locations within the US. When the 5-series came out in October, it must have been two months before I saw one pop up on the road. Yet I heard they were all over the place in CA. I would imagine FWD cars are not as popular on the left coast as they are in the Northeast. Acuras in all flavors are very popular around here. RL is a struggle though.

fedlawman

"I would imagine FWD cars are not as popular on the left coast as they are in the Northeast."

Surprisingly, not true.

The import tuning scene is huge up and down the entire west coast. There just aren't a lot of RWD cars out there for the 20 something crowd (muscle cars and trucks excluded, of course).

designman

Yep, it was only a guess because of the FWD/snow thing. I'm sure there would be a lot of surprises if there were a thorough breakdown of national sales stats available to us. I guess the marketers have them.

blueguydotcom

That car is all over the place in Ca. I dig it and to this day feel like it's the best bargain for sub 30k cars. Luxurious, nice handling, great engine and smoothest 6 speed I've ever touched. Yummy. And a good 13k less than my car cost me.

As I've said many time, if Acura drops AWD - especially with some kind of computer control for power - into their smaller cars (TL, TSX), I'll most likely defect from BMW. For the 6 speed alone it's nearly worth it.

fedlawman

There's a lot of buzz on the TSX enthusiast sites (from reliable sources) about AWD coming to the TSX and TL in the future.

It seems pretty likely. SH-AWD?

http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=2825&cat- egoryId=10

blueguydotcom

That could be real nice.

BTW, I've seen some new posts that say the upcoming e90 3 Series, which should arrive in May of 2005, will have engine choices ranging from a low 3.0L inline 6 at 250 hp, midrange 3.5L inline 6 at 290 HP, 4.0L V8 at 400 HP (M3) and finally the 4.4L V8 at 440 HP for the M3 CSL.

fedlawman

Yeah, I've been interested in what the new 3 series will be. Photos I've seen look modern and handsome on the outside, and I even like the new interior look of the 5/6/7 series. I think I remember reading that initially, the new 3 will have the carry-over engines, with new engines coming later.

I really want the new 3 to knock my socks off. Unfortunately, I suspect that it will be more bloated and luxurious than the E46, and I'll have to look towards the new 1/2 series for my modern-day, spiritual E30 successor.

Waiting to see...

jazevedo

Hi, I don't want to discuss which car is better, but basically I like the 330i with zhp a bit better than the G35 due to interior and exterior looks(in a big way actually). Of course the 6K or 7K difference can help the G35 seem like the way to go. Since I really want the bmw, I need to rationalize paying the extra money.....so can anyone help me estimate the maintenance costs on the G35 during the first 4 years - I want to add that to the price of the G35 to compare to the BMW which includes maintenance. Can I assume it is close to $2K, or will it be cheaper?

If $2K, that would bring the prices within $5K of each other...still a big difference...but then again if the resale value of the BMW after 4 or 5 years is $4 or $5K above the resale value of the Infiniti....the cost to own either car would be about the same (except sales tax would be slightly higher on the bmw and interest on the higher loan)? Am I reaching here? Maybe I'm wrong to assume the Infiniti will lose as much $ value as the bmw over the 4-5 year period...I'm just guessing this because bmw's are so popular, I'd think it would be easier to sell. Any comments would be appreciated.

kyfdx

BMW 330i
Msrp: $42K
Selling price: $37K
4 yr residual value: $21K
Sales tax @6%: $2220
Interest-4yr loan @5%: $4135
Maintenance: $0
Total 4yr cost: $22,355

Infiniti G35
MSRP: $35K
Selling price: $31K
4 yr residual value: $17.5K
Sales tax @6%: $2100
Interest-4yr loan @5%: $3480
Maintenance: $1200 (every 7500 miles-guessing. Using my last Accord as a barometer plus 20%)
Total 4yr cost: $20,280

Difference: $2075 over 4 years.

I'm estimating a lot of this. I do know the BMW has a $2400 dealer incentive, so $5K off sticker is achievable.. I haven't been following pricing on the G35, so that may be too generous a discount, or not generous enough.. I estimated both cars to be worth 50% of MSRP in 4 years, assuming 48K miles. That is probably a little generous for both, but it gives you a baseline. If you assume the BMW will have a little better resale, percentagewise, then it gets the numbers closer.

regards,
kyfdx

shipo

Not that it is a huge issue, however, the BMW gets better mileage. Then again, if gas prices keep rising, it might turn into a big issue.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom

honestly, if you like the BMW better, just go with it. I was gungho on the G35. KD and I used to go rounds when the G hit the street. I was convinced it would be my next car. I drove everything under the sun BUT a manual 330i. They were tough to get my hands on between march and may of 2003.

The G35 with the 6 was great. Fantastic. But yet it didn't quite feel perfect for me. then I drove a 330ci with manual and felt I could like that car. The next day I got my hands on a 330i ZHP that was still covered in plastic. I unwrapped it like a big present, took it out for one of Cunningham BMW's excellent twisty-hilly-all road types drives. I signed for it 30 minutes later.

I knew as soon as I drove the 330i ZHP that I simply would not be happy with another car. Price be damned, you only live once.

If you can negotiate it in your area, shoot for 1900 below invoice (there's a 2400 rebate on the car). That's $500 dealer profit. Decent. Don't pay any bogus extra fees either. If you can't get that where you live but you're near the west coast - email around southern cal. There are so many dealers they're very cutthroat. My dealership did $400 over invoice in may 2003 (and still does on 3 series cars). With a rebate I would have been at 2k below invoice. Buy in so cal and just hop a southwest flight out here if you can't beat the price locally.

chrisboth

1200 for 4 year maintenance could be a stretch if you dont use the dealer and do some stuff yourself - air filter and cabin filter alone cost 350 or so over 4 years and you can get that to 75 or less doing it all yourself. Oil and gas is all this thing really needs and 1 good fluid change in 60k. There is little work involved in keeping a VQ running. BRakes are covered for 36k no matter what invluding rotors.

The BMW free service is not all that free as I understand it. What they give you is 15k service - basically oil and filter and they "check everything". My dealer is very good at this as well but they charge base service fee to check everything and change oil for 250 and all add'l labor and parts extra. FOR A 7500 mil checkup I dont need anything but oil and washer fluid thanks. BMW will need little hopelfully and less likely tho in those same intervals but you will be paying to change your oil 2 of 3 times unless you like burnt sludge on your internals. Marketing is powerful - read furhter into it. And dont forget you can mod your G save another 4 mpg add 30 hp all for 1000 bucks. 300 hp if you can turn a ratchet and 260 if not...way more fun than a 330i IMO. WWait for the new 330 if you get one and wait for the new lineup of motors as well. BMW isn't gouig to be 2nd for long (I guess Infiniti will respond in 07 with a G45 if I'm lucky)

kdshapiro

"KD and I used to go rounds when the G hit the street"

LOL. The good ol' days!

"The BMW free service is not all that free as I understand it"

That is correct, they cover about 95% of the normal car maintenance. BMW will not cover tires, headliner, alignments, abuse and a few other miscellaneous items. Not sure about tranny flushes/coolant flushes. Everything else is covered in a 4 year/50K B-B warranty. Service is based on the cars service interval indicator and costs $0. They cover the fluids, microfilter, brakes/brake flush and wipers and what ever else is specified. So far in two years of ownership I've spent $0 on the car for anything. The only out of pocket was for the car alarm.

speedracer3

Chris,

In my experience with Nissans, brakes should be your biggest worry. Both of my Nissans had to have the pads/rotors replaced very early.

kyfdx

Well.. I was trying to do an apple to apples comparison... MOST people have their maintenance done at the dealership, at least during the warranty period.

I don't think I'm far off on an Infiniti dealer charging $1200 for six maintenance visits.. every 7500 miles up to 45K. And, if the car needs brakes, the BMW comes out even further ahead, as the BMW dealer does it for free.

$2075 is still over $40/mo. more.. Not an insignificant amount, but definitely a number that you can slide by your significant other, to get the car you really want.

I tried to run all those numbers without a bias, but if I was putting hard numbers to it, I'd guess the Infiniti would depreciate more on a percentage basis, and the BMW would wear out tires faster. So, in real life, the numbers could vary a lot one way or another.

If it won't break your budget, always get what YOU want.

regards,
kyfdx

chrisboth

"I'd guess the Infiniti would depreciate more on a percentage basis, and the BMW would wear out tires faster. So, in real life, the numbers could vary a lot one way or another."

I thought the intervals BMW recommends and will pay for service on are at 15k. I hear they make you pay for 2 oil changes in between.

The depreciation of the G is the best in class of coupes and much higher residuals are offered for both versions of the G. the 54% 3 year 12k number I got is more like 61% or so now which for 3 years is awesome. I've heard 63% or 66% for coupes but not buying it unless I see it in person. These cars hold value equally well IMO. People were worried 2 years ago but resales are going very well on the G front.

PS why would BMW tires wear out faster?

And for G brakes - they can wear out every 10k as long as the rotors don't gore out IMO. These things rock like none other and grab like Governer Arnold. Pads are cheap. Especially when they are free upto 36k. My car has 20k and they have 30% left or so. Some are replacing at first oil change - brake riders I guess or LA, ATLANTA, JERSEY traffic..love the train!

blueguydotcom

thought the intervals BMW recommends and will pay for service on are at 15k. I hear they make you pay for 2 oil changes in between.

No, you get an oil change when the light comes on.

PS why would BMW tires wear out faster?

Driving style? I ran through my potenza 18 inch re40s in under 15k miles. Of course I drive my car as if I stole it.

And for G brakes - they can wear out every 10k as long as the rotors don't gore out IMO. These things rock like none other and grab like Governer Arnold. Pads are cheap. Especially when they are free upto 36k. My car has 20k and they have 30% left or so. Some are replacing at first oil change - brake riders I guess or LA, ATLANTA, JERSEY traffic..love the train!

I've owned Nissans. They unfortunately do seem to eat brakes.

speedracer3

I think the problem with Nissan is that they use cheap rotors. Back when I hung around Nissan boards, a lot folks used to complain about their rotors warping easily.

jazevedo

Thanks for the responses. I'm definitely not the type to try and fix my own car. I have a Mustang GT and I installed a K&N air filter, but that's about all I did on my own! So if I had the G35, I'd be bringing it to the dealer for service whenever it was due. I know a couple people with bmw's and they don't change the oil until 15K miles since it's synthetic. Maybe some people cringe at the thought of waiting that long, but my friends haven't had any problems and I can't imagine the dealer would recommend something that could harm the car?

I haven't researched depreciation - I just assumed the bmw would hold it's value a bit better since they appear to be more in demand - but that's just my perception and I could be wrong. I see mostly g35 coupes and not so many sedans, and the dealer seemed more willing to deal than the cocky bmw dealers (I live in San Francisco bay area).

The 330 zhp has 18 inch wheels, wheras the G35 sedan has 17's....so tires should wear out faster on the bmw...

Blueguy - thanks, I've read your posts and you sound extremely happy with your car...maybe I'll be in your shoes soon. But I have yet to test drive the 330 which I'd like to do soon and then test drive the G35 right after. I wanted to determine if the 330 was in my price range before going to drive it, because I'm sure I'll love it. I will definitely look in socal - a friend suggested Santa Barbara.

blueguydotcom

I can't complain about my ZHP. When I get home on weekdays I want to hug my beautiful baby sitting in the garage. Come Friday night I'm excited to get home and slide behind the wheel of my BMW. I actually miss my car m-f. Need another red pepper for that dish? I'll go to the store to get it...and take the long way. Once I'm back I'll find another excuse to split.

I'm helping another friend look for a car right now and she's all over the map. From the TL to the xB to Mazda3 to the Escape. The only set in stone for her: no European cars. Shrug, okey dokey. It's an arduous process to pick out a car if one really wants to get the car that fits them like a glove.