Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

kdshapiro · January 2005

Total 3 Series all models Dec: 10,569

Total 3 series all models YTD: 106,549

indydriver · January 2005

I am admittedly an Acura fan (although I own none of these cars yet). The TL and TSX are obviously big hits and brilliant strategy by Acura. The TL is the volume leader being build in Ohio and the TSX, which was budgeted at 15,000 units per year has doubled demand. No wonder they are so hard to find.

jpnmass · January 2005

December, 6258

Total 2004, 57211

eaton53 · January 2005

On the C-Class?

eaton53 · January 2005

Is CTS 3.6 the top selling single model of RWD sports sedan in the U.S.? Sure looks that way.

Who'da thunk it just a few years ago?

kdshapiro · January 2005

Try www.prnewswire.com. You can look at sales figures and spin the numbers anyway you want.

ponytrekker · January 2005

Uglier than the Aztek

eaton53 · January 2005

"Uglier than the Aztek"

In your opinion.... but then it wasn't meant to appeal to everyone.

It's a lot better than some blandmobile that no one really cares about and from the sales figures it seems a whole lot of people really like it. Plus it hasn't gotten tired... sales have increased every year since it came out.

indydriver · January 2005

I looked at all the Caddys at the autoshow and was not impressed. First thing is the $42,000 sticker for a heavy underpowered lux over sport vehicle. Then you have to look at it. 300C beats Caddy at their own game for $5-$7K less. And if you prefer a little sporting character with your lux, all three Japanese premium brands had superior styling, quality, content and value. Euros have the hardware if you want to pay a $5-$10k premium. What is even more surprising is looking down market for a mainstream 4-door sedan. It is incredible how out-to-lunch the domestics are. Ford 500? Are you kidding me?

eaton53 · January 2005

"First thing is the $42,000 sticker for a heavy underpowered lux over sport vehicle."

Very high end of the scale there. Most CTS aren't anywhere near that much. And there are obviously a large number of people like their sports sedans not to beat them up.

It's also a bigger car... many people also appreciate the space it offers.

The 3.6 is underpowered only in some alternate universe. 255 hp and 252 lb/ft of torque on regular gas.

"Then you have to look at it. 300C beats Caddy at their own game for $5-$7K less."

Have you driven one? I have. The 300C is not nearly as good as an all around vehicle. Fast in a straight line, sure. But throw in some corners and there's lots of body roll and tire squeal. Caddys don't do any of that.

300C lacks the chassis composure to be a sports sedan.... it's a fast cruiser.

"And if you prefer a little sporting character with your lux, all three Japanese premium brands had superior styling"

In your opinion. IMO, except for the G35 they're bland, too small or have wrong wheel drive.

"quality,"

Cadillac is one of only 3 manufacturers in the top 5 of all 3 Power surveys. Only one of the others is Japanese. Sorry, but the surveys don't back up these superior quality claims.

"content and value."

They're all loaded and cost similar amounts... nothing there.

"Euros have the hardware if you want to pay a $5-$10k premium."

For a less reliable product.

qbrozen · January 2005

Not that I like getting caught up in the useless sales numbers, but I had to ask why there is a discrepancy between shapiro's numbers and danny's numbers.

If I add up all of danny's 3-series numbers, I get less than 69K (i didn't do exact, just a rough add-up in my head), but shap's obviously shows almost 40k more than that. What's missing? Coupes and convertibles? Did they really sell almost 40k coupes and convertibles? That's a huge number for niche styles like that.

kyfdx · January 2005

Coupes, convertibles and wagons.. I think that would do it....

qbrozen · January 2005

but the original post says 325i and 330i. I would think that would include wagons since wagons also have those same designations. the only things missing are the ci. But maybe you're right and wagons aren't in there, i don't know.

kyfdx · January 2005

Too lazy to look.. but, I think it said sedans only....

That makes Lexus sales look better in comparison, dontchaknow... since they don't offer coupes in those models..

qbrozen · January 2005

oops. yer right. it was right there in the title of the post: "no wagons."

Yeah, the ES looks to be popular, but the IS and GS numbers are downright pitiful.

riez · January 2005

qbrozen... Can't say I agree with your statement: "Yeah, the ES looks to be popular, but the IS and GS numbers are downright pitiful."

I would agree that Lexus should be ashamed of how little they advertise/market both the IS and GS. Given that Lexus does next to nothing to promote either and that BOTH are in the last MY of their current platform, I'd say sales are absolutely amazingly good!

IS300 sedan holding up compared to BMW 330i sedan.

And the GS competes against a different class of cars: E-class, A6, and 5 Series.

If you add up all the Lexus sedan sales--ES, GS, and IS--Lexus dealers are happy. Plus about 50% of all Lexus sales are SUVs. SUVs are where Lexus' action has been for about 5 years now.

qbrozen · January 2005

Well, comparing JUST the 330i to the IS300 is not quite kosher. Just because Lexus doesn't offer 2 engine choices in their car or the option of AWD does not justify limiting 3-series sales to one option.

Less than 7K cars is quite pitiful, IMHO. Toyota decided to kill the Celica after it sold more than double that number in 2003. So why kill a car with 15k sales and keep one with 7k?

I'm not arguing as to WHY it suffers in sales, just that it does.

dhanley · January 2005

"I looked at all the Caddys at the autoshow and was not impressed."

Hm. I drove the CTS at gm's autoshow in motion back to back with the TL. I think the only way the TL was better is that its interior quality was somewhat better. Aside from that, the CTS handled better, was more spacious, and the engine felt better ( quieter, smoother, less peaky ).

The CTS stickers for a smidge less than the TL and you can surely get a bigger discount on it.

qbrozen · January 2005

unfortunately, that "smidge" cheaper CTS is lacking in content compared to the TL. Add in the $8K 1SC package and you've just blown the TL's price out of the water.

eaton53 · January 2005

You can get a CTS anyway you want it. If you want to pay more, you can. If you want it stripped, you can get that, too. Two different engines, auto or manual with either one.... and they all drive the rear wheels.

Just because "you" want that stuff, doesn't mean everyone does.

darrenw · January 2005

I just got my G35. Am happy and very excited!!

Md4cow was right. The TL had all the stuff that we all wanted (better ride, powerful yet quiet, smooth engine, good handling, good mpg, interior, tons of features). Although I'm not a techy person, but boy the navigation and its voice command over temperature,radio,.. etc. really impressed me a lot.

BUT too bad they wouldnt budge for more discount!!

I'm quite happy with the G, especially when the car will only be driven by me. My family just cant handle the ride.

Imo the TL is more like a handsome, muscular looking car while the G is more to the sweet and exotic type. Eventhough the TL rode & turned as flat as the G, but I do believe there's a hair difference somewhere.

The salesman was with me so I didnt have a chance to feel the torque steer.

Did go fast into a corner but I guess it was not fast enough.

Thanks for all the info guys. Really happy with this experience.

cdost1 · January 2005

darrenw,

Curious on what you decided. I have had my G35x for about 10 days now and so far know regrets. Even had it out in some wet snow tonight and it was fine.

I found that all of the cars in the mix you were looking at did not have such great MPG. If you are talking about these high powered engines I suspect this has something to do with it. It looks to me that I will be getting somewhere around 325 to 350 miles on a tank with all the city driving I do. Not much different than Explorer my Infiniti replaced.

The only reason I nixed the TL was just looks. It drove nice and actually had a few more features for less money since it was FWD vs AWD.

Hope you found the car you wanted.

Regards,

CDOST

qbrozen · January 2005

well, it has little to do with what I want. It has to do with comparing comparable cars. Don't get me wrong, I think its great that someone can buy a stripped CTS if they want, but that doesn't mean its comparable to the TL.

eaton53 · January 2005

"but that doesn't mean its comparable to the TL."

Sorry, but because of it's inherently flawed FWD design, no TL is superior to a CTS, no matter how many gadgets you pile onto it.

Proper sports sedans are driven by the rear wheels, or with RWD based AWD. For some reason, Acura hasn't figured this out when everyone else has.

qbrozen · January 2005

*groan*

yeah, let's dig up that horse again!

eaton53 · January 2005

"yeah, let's dig up that horse again!"

Well, you're right... there's no point to digging it up until someone builds a FWD "sports sedan" that can run with the Really Big Dogs of the sports sedan universe. Then you can come on and proclaim its superiority.

m4d_cow · January 2005

congrats on both your purchases

darren: to add the info tls nav system is considered one of the most user-friendly system in the market nowadays

cdost: the mpg stuff makes me wonder, some people claim the TL have better mpg than G35, while others claim the opposite, and until now i still have no clue which one is right...

qbrozen · January 2005

Then you can come on and proclaim its superiority.

By "you", I presume you mean any person in general and not me. Because you won't see me doing it. I'd rather proclaim one car's advantages over another and not argue in generalized terms since it does very little to further a discussion.

igiban · January 2005

Someone a while back posted the sales # for 2004 and it seems that the best selling entry luxo sedans in US last year were the inferior FWDers ES and TL. How the heck could that happen? The universe must be educated more by the RWD-wing.

eaton53 · January 2005

Not really buying into the whole "sales" equals "capability" thing.

If that were the case, I'd get me an F-150 and head down to the track to race for titles!

qbrozen · January 2005

actually, again, to correct some wording to avoid confusion and possible useless debate, i think you mean to say "not buying the whole sales equals performance thing", because the F150 is quite "capable" of doing many things a sports sedan is not.

And I only say this because I know it will turn into "FWD is capable of XYZ better than RWD" or whatever.

Isn't there a topic for FWD vs RWD vs AWD, by the way??

igiban · January 2005

Good thing you are not running a car co.

Capability for what? T&R? Fine, go with RWD. But is that what everyone's only need to be based on? Far from it. Don't over-generalize what's the best even for those in this segment. Some go all the way to performance, some lean more on luxury, some take a blend of both. Who's to say what's the best. Not you or me but each one for their own.

eaton53 · January 2005

"Good thing you are not running a car co."

Tell that to BMW, then... they obviously don't know what they're doing, even though what I advocate is basically what they make, sedans with the emphasis on sport.

When the top luxury sports sedans are named, no FWD cars or plushmobiles are on that list.... those lists are filled with M-cars and those capable of challenging them. And to challenge them, you'd better have a chassis that's up to the task of providing supercar performance, 4 doors and a pretty good level of luxury.

Sorry, but nothing of the TL's and ES's ilk is going to be up to that challenge.

igiban · January 2005

You think BMW's goal is really to make capable cars? No, it's simply make money, which is directly from sales. Anything else is just a means to get there. If you want to run BMW, or any co., you got to get that straight. That's why I said good thing you are not running one!

I was not arguing TL being a supercar. It's not. I was just saying 'lots of people' (2nd to ES for entry luxo, but ok, ES is not a performance sedan) last year voted their wallet on TL for it's blend of sportiness and luxury. Anything wrong with these people, I think not.

cruller001 · January 2005

Sup Folks,

Just saw the new A6 on the street in DC and I must say I was impressed. I had read comments from posters in this and other forums, including auto rag reviews which did not sound too promising. Especially in reference to the new grill(schnoze, some call it)But after seeing the vehicle up close, the grill appears to be well integrated with the overall design, subjectively of course. However I think the previous model's tail lenses look better that the new ones. Good looking car though. Any comments?

m4d_cow · January 2005

i dont really know much about the a6 since ive never driven one, but looks great, i didnt like the new grille at 1st as well but grew to like it, like you said its well integrated to the whole design. the old rear end design is nice, but wont look good on the new one imo.

eaton53 · January 2005

"You think BMW's goal is really to make capable cars? No, it's simply make money"

And one isn't one used as a means get you the other? Also, using your logic they should just quit building the M cars, Cadillac should dump V, etc. They don't make enough of them to turn much, if any, of a profit, so the aura these great cars create really doesn't have any value.

"I was not arguing TL being a supercar."

I'm seeing people in here proclaiming the TL's superiority to other vehicles that are not only capable of reaching the supercar level, but have actually done it.

qbrozen · January 2005

When the top luxury sports sedans are named

named by who?? what list are you talking about?? Are you maybe referring to C&D's recent 10 Best? You mean that "list" of one car in each category? They don't say who else is on the list competing against it in that particular segment, but I'm sure the TL was in that group. Then again, maybe not since the TSX won "Best Sports Sedan," indicating they feel Acura is not luxurious enough. But this does bring up an interesting point. If you feel this list is indicative of what they consider "sporty" and that it is restricted to RWD for this purpose, then why did the TSX win the same award as BMW except simply lacking the "luxury" pigeonhole?

qbrozen · January 2005

I'm seeing people in here proclaiming the TL's superiority to other vehicles that are not only capable of reaching the supercar level, but have actually done it.

please point out where this has happened. That's absurd if anyone really thinks that. Just as its absurd to think that ANY car in this category has reached the supercar level.

laurasdada · January 2005

I bought my '05 TL for all reasons you listed as TL assets. I really liked the G35x (power and flat handling!), but more important to me than 10/10ths handling I was looking for a smoother, quiter ride with good handling. And as a New Englander/skier, RWD was not that attractive (hence I looked at the G35x. FWD has always served me well, so even with the improved traction/safety of AWD, the added weight and complexity were not appealing to me).

As far as deals go (for either the G or the TL), Boston area seems the place to be! I had no trouble negotiating the TL at invoice from two different dealers.

I've never driven a CTS, but was so turned off by exterior/interior style and interior materials that I knew it wasn't the car for me. While the styling may be overboard at least, like Chrysler with the new 300, they took a chance. Unlike Ford, which will still probably sell a lot of 500s to non-car people!

G35 or TL? Whichever you buy, you win! Or whatever car you buy because if you bought it, it's the best. It just doesn't matter what car mags, sales figures or Edmunds Message Board "experts" say!

joeshan · January 2005

FWIW dep't: I think the A6 looks fine even with the schnozz. I saw one in a sort of copper/pumpkin color that was beautiful. The interior was goregous, too.But boy oh boy, they are quite dear-50 large!

joeshan · January 2005

I'm getting about the same in city (NYC) driving. But on the highway, I got about 24 mpg at 70 mph w/cruise on. I'll have to see later on, as I only have 2300 miles on the car ('04 G35X).

darrenw · January 2005

The reason for that is :

MPG [rsandersva] by george7777 Jan 04, 2005 (4:41 pm)

"Am a little worried about MPG, but deal says that its controlled by computer which learns how you drive the car and makes ...



Message #1416 Paint, Scratches, and Fuel Efficiency by whywhy Dec 01, 2004 (8:59 pm)

Really pisses me off. Also, I am barely getting 17 mpg. Grrrrrrrrr By the way, still love how the car drives :-)



Message #1366 Re: MPG for G35x [kudy843] by sammy2 Oct 07, 2004 (5:57 am)

I got my G35x last month. Currently I am getting whopping 13mpg. But my drive is mostly with in ...



Message #1365 MPG for G35x by kudy843 Oct 06, 2004 (1:44 pm)

Got my G35x for 2 weeks now and it seems to take a lot more gas than I expected. My last car was ...



Message #1253 Gas Mileage 2004 G35x by g35owner May 24, 2004 (1:34 pm)

I have about 1,700 miles on my G35x. I am averageing between 17-18 mpg driving moderately agressively about 70% highway using premium fuel.



Message #788 G35 Sedan Questions / Problems by adpcs Sep 22, 2003 (9:33 pm)

I have had my G35 for about 1.5 months now, and have about 1200 miles on it.

I have the performance ... causing the premature wear on the pads? As a result causing my gas mileage to be around the 15-16 mpg mark.

I think that is unacceptable. My SUV gets 19 mpg in the same type of driving. 2. ...



Message #714 Gas mileage by norbert444 Aug 05, 2003 (2:42 pm)

I have experienced 17.5 to 18.9 mpg during break-in period. It was mostly city driving. The mileage kept improving with every ...



Message #710 low gas mileage by garygersh2 Aug 04, 2003 (3:27 pm)

I've never gotten more than 17 to 18 mpg in pure highway driving. Spoke to the dealer, and ...

But I think I'm getting more than these folks but I'm still babying it. So dunno yet.

It is a great car. My only reason for not going with other car is the look of the G. Cant stop staring at it.

eaton53 · January 2005

"please point out where this has happened. That's absurd if anyone really thinks that."

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?article_id=8720&secti- - on_id=15&page_number=1

Hey, the 1st and 3rd place cars are none other than Cadillac CTS, the very car that the TL is supposedly "superior" to.

"Just as its absurd to think that ANY car in this category has reached the supercar level."

Heh, heh.... Let's change that to "It's absurd to think that a car in this category with such pedestrian underpinnings as the TL can reach anywhere near the the supercar level."

I'll now repeat those that have actually done it.... those would be the CTS and 3-Series.

danny1878 · January 2005

lol, I think everybody thinks that supercars are like Lamborighini, Porche, Ferrari, viper etc...

That is the common conception. And no such a thing like VW and Mitsubishi(A company who struggle to survive) are being competed as the supercar unless its a "Super" car.

This contest is like the beauty contest that I saw in Thailand when I was on vacation in 2000. Everyone thinks there's gonna be a lot of pretty girls (common conception about supercar/super beauty) but "super" actually meant a contest with a heavy (really heavy) modification. I asked one of the girl (named "ferrari") in the audience , "you are very attractive, why dont you go and compete". She said no very quickly! Real girl wont compete with these "queens"

(Why? Because we cant keep up with the demand)

Will you marry the prettiest girl of that contest? (why the sales was not good?)

Guess who turned out to be a winner, a drag queen but HE was really pretty and acutally much prettier than that girl. HE just doesnt sell much in his ordinary life. Why they used the word "beauty" because they wanted to improve the non-selling queen and also beer sales(beer = mod parts/gadgets).

A low grade civic/ VolksWagon VW/ Mitsubishi can be modded to achieve supercar level but thats not the point. Only a few vehicle were being competed so there is no loser among those who didnt compete(or didnt want to).

Unless the lexus/Acura/Infiniti was in and lost, but one thing for sure nothing can beat the natural beauty.

"I'll now repeat those that have actually done it.... those would be the CTS and 3-Series. "

Nobody is saying that TL is the "super"-car, but CTS ers.

Why you didnt say that earlier?

Thank god

cdnpinhead · January 2005

Well, isn't this special.

Does anyone answer direct questions, or is that considered somehow inappropriate?

fedlawman · January 2005

eaton53 - "Proper sports sedans are driven by the rear wheels."

Well, since you respect Car and Driver enough to provide a link, why not explain why they picked the FWD Acura TSX as their "Best Sports Sedan" TWO YEARS IN A ROW?

eaton53 - "I'm seeing people in here proclaiming the TL's superiority to other vehicles that are not only capable of reaching the supercar level, but have actually done it."

Thanks, I enjoyed your link. Someone spent $70,000 to modify a CTS-V, and it came in 1st place. I'm not sure how this answers gbrozen's question but, I'm sure that with a $70,000 budget, someone could build a TL that's a competitive "supercar."

BTW, when are you going to answer gbrozen's question and show us where "people" proclaimed the TL's superiority?

fedlawman · January 2005

An Acura TL finished 1st in class, and 3rd overall, at the "25 hours of Thunderhill" race in Willows, CA.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/enduro/25hour/2004_recap.html

Some notable quotes:

"The main surprise of the early hours was the strong showing of Honda-powered sedans near the top of the order."

"The Honda Research Acura TL proved that four door luxury racecars are plenty competitive by blowing the doors off the E0 field and taking the final spot on the overall podium."

lmacmil · January 2005

...can fit on the head of a pin? Let's argue about that for a while. Makes about as much sense as arguing which is the best entry-level luxury performance sedan.

If you parse out this forum's title, you'll probably get agreement on "sedan" and perhaps on "entry level." There will be no consensus on "best", "luxury", or "performance."

So, instead of trying to convince people which sedan is best (period), which is impossible, tell us which sedan was best for YOU. That may help people determine what is best for them.

Carry on :-)

eaton53 · January 2005

"An Acura TL finished 1st in class, and 3rd overall, at the "25 hours of Thunderhill" race in Willows, CA."

Did they let them drive those cars home? Anyone with the cash can buy the supercars I posted and legally drive them wherever they want... or they can go buy the AutoTrader car I linked to and get pretty darn close for less than $40K.

"Car and Driver enough to provide a link, why not explain why they picked the FWD Acura TSX as their "Best Sports Sedan" TWO YEARS IN A ROW?"

If you got no money, it's fine.... but the TSX couldn't make this list any more than the Subarus could. The CTS-V is #1 at both Road & Track and Automobile.

"I'm not sure how this answers gbrozen's question but, I'm sure that with a $70,000 budget, someone could build a TL that's a competitive "supercar."

If if's and but's were candy and nuts, every day would be Christmas. Where's the CAR?

"BTW, when are you going to answer gbrozen's question and show us where "people" proclaimed the TL's superiority?"

No one's arguing it? Then great that it's settled, I don't have to argue it any more either.

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