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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    that may cover the tires, but what about the wheels they need to be mounted on? i don't have a tire machine in my garage (unfortunately), so they need to be mounted on their own wheels.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    Yes, winters, steel wheels, hubcaps, $500 or so. Slightly more for alloys. That will last you for a few seasons.
  • ponytrekkerponytrekker Member Posts: 314
    BMWs are much more economical to lease because of: (1) subsidized interest rates; and (2) very high residuals.
  • ponytrekkerponytrekker Member Posts: 314
    >>since my RWD car has the worst traction while NONE of my cars have winter tires, it would still have the worst traction if ALL of my cars had winter tires.

    They would essentially be the same. The part of the car that actually touches the road is the TIRE. Winter tires are better in the winter than all seasons or summer tires. You would rather keep 2 cars than spend $500 for tires. Whatever.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "BMWs are much more economical to lease because of: (1) subsidized interest rates..."

    Hmmm, that smacks of an "Urban Legend" as it has been repeated so often that most folks believe it without thinking about it. As a counterpoint to that statement, I have leased two BMWs, and in both cases I was quoted a lower monthly lease price from an non BMW-FS leasing outfit. The only reason I lease my second BMW through BMW-FS is because I did the European Delivery thing, and it was just easier to arrange.

    As for: "...and (2) very high residuals.", I'm thinking that that statement is the truth of the matter.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    The last car I leased was a Mazda Millennia and I enjoyed every bit of it.
    Personally, I dont want to go down that road again (leasing), I would rather buy a car like the 545.
    I am getting rid of my TLS next summer, so it depends on how I get for it when I sell it myself.
    I am just going to play the waitng game to see all the new goodies and upgrades next year.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I'm pretty happy with my 330i lease. I pay 485 a month on a car with an msrp of 43k. 15k miles/3 years. Shrug.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    No need to be a hater. ;)

    what kind of car guy doesn't want more than one car in their stable? Heck, I've got 3, not including my wife's. ;)

    By the way, my FWD has been absolutely unstoppable in the snow with a good set of all-seasons on it. No need for swapping.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • djocksdjocks Member Posts: 124
    on you lease of the 330i, what did you put down?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I got the MSDs - which I get back at the end. So in terms of cash that is gone forever from my pocket I think it was something like $750 or $1000. But that was titling and the first month's payment too.

    When I figured out the dollars I will be out to BMW in May of 06 it was 18k total. 6k a year to play with a car isn't bad.

    The residual on the car is 25k (59% residual)...as if it will be worth THAT much in 06. My MF factor was like 0.0007.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The following is from a Lexus dealer rep who's been reliable in the past.

    In October 2005:
    '06 IS250 and IS350. The IS250 will have a 6 speed manual tranny OR a automatic V6 engine. The IS250 will have 220 horsepower. The IS350 is a V6 automatic ONLY, but will have guarranteed minimum of 325 horsies. The IS350 will have an available "Sport Package" with "18 wheels. Pricing will remain competitive and the IS will start around $32k-$33k, same as what we have now, but a top of the line will be about $45k.

    In March 2006:
    '07 ES350 will have a 3.5 liter engine with a completely new body style. The only thing they are keeping the same on the ES will be the headlight design.

    In April 2006:
    '07 RX350 will have the same updated engine as the ES

    In May 2006:
    GS450Hybrid will have a V6 hybrid engine, but be faster than the GS430.

    In September 2006:
    LS460Hybrid with 2 body styles, one 6 inches longer, will be added to the regular LS. Both will have 4.6 V8 engines.

    In September 2006:
    '07GS350 will have the updated engine, but same body style.

    In September 2006:
    '07 GS460 will have an updated engine.

    In 2-3 more years the IS convertible with retractable hard top is coming for cetain. And other car ideas that are being tossed around also are the "Super LS" that will cost more than $100k and the "SuperCoupe" that will go 200 MPH.

    ------------------

    Also, it seems that Toyota is going to use the 3.5 GR V6 in much the same fashion that Nissan uses the 3.5 VQ V6, meaning that a lot Toyotas/Lexuses will have it. No doubt the next Camry, Solara, Sienna, and Highlander will carry the 3.5 GR as well.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    An automatic only IS350? Yuck! Regardless of its other fine attributes, I won't even bother looking at it. :-/

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    They got crucified for not having a manual when the IS300 showed up. There's no way they wouldn't learn their lesson. Sorry but I think the dealer is off. If he's not Lexus just blew its chance at dethroning the 330.

    God, what a bummer, have a great engine and the car would be utterly worthless to drive. :(
  • billherrmannbillherrmann Member Posts: 108
    I leased a 330xi in Jan "03 ..$416 per month after putting 5 K down. A great car in most respects. Last month, I leased an "05 CTS with 3.6 engine...1 K down & $322. per month. Both leases were 36 month term, BMW was 10k miles per-Cad. 12k miles per.
    CTS cost $7500. LESS to lease for 3 years!!!
    CTS is much faster than 330 & runs on regular gas. CTS lacks AWD and heated seats [I can do without]. Before you respond to this post and point out that BMW is the Gold Standard of sports sedans {and I am clearly an uninformed moron], please test drive 3.6 CTS. It is smooth & powerful, nimble & quick--a BLAST to drive.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Errr, sorry, been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. CTS? No thanks. Would I believe that a CTS 3.6 can out drive a 330xi? Yup. Not a fair comparison. Does my butt dyno tell me that a CTS 3.6 will out drive a 330i SP much less a ZHP? Nope. Then there is the whole "Looks" thing; to my eye, the CTS has a face that only a mother could love.

    330i dethroned? Not yet.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    Exactly.

    Hope this is incorrect information, or if it's not, that Toyota reconsiders.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "They got crucified for not having a manual when the IS300 showed up."

    Yes, but once they finally released the 5-speed, it was a runaway success!
  • rsr742002rsr742002 Member Posts: 64
    That would be an unforgivable mistake if they only offer the automatic version...
    I will definitely ignore the IS w/o a manual.
    Granny Tranny on a "sports" sedan? No, thank you.

    If Lexus is serious about going after BMW crowd,
    they need to offer a full range of manual transmissions on their cars: GS, IS, even SC need to have a manual option...having just ONE model (measly 2.5L) is unacceptable!
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    please test drive 3.6 CTS. It is smooth & powerful, nimble & quick--a BLAST to drive.

    Done it. didn't like it. Didn't find it nimble in any sense. found it flaccid.v my ZHP.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249

    Yes, but once they finally released the 5-speed, it was a runaway success!


    Runaway success? That term cannot be used with the IS300, which was always a sales disappointment.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    There should be some way for all of us to make it clear when we're being sarcastic in text.

    dave
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    You're right Dave. Maybe I should have used...

    'TFIC'

    (Tongue Firmly In Cheek)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    My bad, it's hard to discern sarcasm sometimes from weird badge loving.

    That said, I'm getting rid of my 330i for a Mitsu Eclipse Spyder with an auto. Mitsu may build the best cars in the world.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Yikes! I can hear the headlines now, "From ZHP to Mitsu Spyder. Is BlueGuy going through a mid-life crisis in reverse? The world wants to know." ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    I try to assume people are being sarcastic when they say something i think is really dumb.

    It's more comforting sometimes.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I try to assume people are being sarcastic when they say something i think is really dumb.

    It's more comforting sometimes.


    You made my day with that. ROFL
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,586
    Ditto.. hilarious..

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  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    "I try to assume people are being sarcastic when they say something i think is really dumb.

    It's more comforting sometimes. "

    I will have to try that.
    Thanks!
    - Ray
    Sometimes reacting when should not . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • gordonwdgordonwd Member Posts: 337
    As someone who has spent his career in and around the auto industry, I can tell you with a bit of authority that the future of manual transmissions as we know and love them may be limited. And yes, even the Europeans will have to get used to it.

    One big reason is that, in search of better economy, emissions, and performance, the trend is toward more gears. Even the latest automatics now have 6 speeds. However, the consensus is that 6 speeds is the practical limit for a manual lever-shifted transmission. Think about trying to negotiate the gates quickly with a theoretical 7-speed shifter and you'll see what I mean :-).

    But this does not mean a future of driving slush-boxes! There is already a trend toward the sequential-shift transmissions that BMW calls "SMG" and I forget what Audi calls theirs. Internally these are fully "manual" type gearboxes with mechanical clutches, but they're shifted electronically under servo control and don't have a clutch pedal.

    To me these seem to be the worst of both worlds, but unfortunately that's what we're headed for a few years down the road. So enjoy using your clutch pedal while you can; I know I will!
  • potemkinpotemkin Member Posts: 195
    Gordon, I agree with everything you said, but I don't think the situation is all that critical (just yet). The days of pining for a stick are a long ways off. In the long run you are correct. But the good news is that we're all dead in the long run, so no problem.

    As long as there's a demand, there'll be someone offering it. I think the worst-case scenario is that the old fashioned manual will become an extra cost option.

    As long as there are people willing to pay for it, there will be people willing to sell it.

    It's up to us to keep the manual alive by evangelizing it to the point of annoyance.
  • ljwalters1ljwalters1 Member Posts: 294
    It's funny, I'm a definite manual guy - just love shifting through the gears on my own. I don't laim to be the best at it; in fact, I'd bet I could accelerate faster in a 4 spd automatic than a 5 or 6 spd manual, just b/c of my own limitations. The manual is still just more fun, and makes driving more interesting. It'd be a shame to see it go.
  • rsr742002rsr742002 Member Posts: 64
    Definitely bad idea...just read the review of a Z4 SMG in last month Car&Driver: 100% of people testing it, hated it.

    The art, yes, art of driving a manual-equipped car is disappearing...and yes it is up to us to keep it alive. That's why I admire BMW (although I loathe their prices) for offering manual trannies in most of their cars.

    Lexus needs to do the same as well as Mercedes...
    I would gladly buy an E350 with a manual.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Hi, my name is Shipo, and I'm a manual transmission addict."

    Group: "HI SHIPO!"

    "I came before you today to say that after ten consecutive manual transmission equipped cars spanning a period of 26 years, I will be stick free in twelve days."

    Big burley construction worker to my right: "There there, we are here to help you get through your period of adjustment. Remember; just take it one day at a time."

    "Thanks folks, it's going to be a rough time as due to factors beyond my control I won't be able to reacquire another car with three pedals until April of 2006."

    Group moderator: "Do you mean to say that you've come to us for help to just temporarily drive without a stick shift? And that you are actively planning on getting another one?"

    "Yes, that is correct."

    Group moderator: "You do realize that we here at "Automatics Only Anonymous" are dedicated to helping you rid yourself of the stick shift habit forever?"

    Trembling in my seat, sweat pouring down my face, "Ummm, yes, but I neeeeed it."

    Group moderator: "Mr. Shipo, please get control of your self. You need to understand that we will only help you if you are truly committed to the extinction of the manual transmission."

    "But what about my 11 year old son? He can't wait for me to teach him how to use a clutch."

    Group moderator: "WHAT? You are actually planning on passing that horrible addiction along to your son?"

    "Yes sir."

    Group moderator (long sigh): "Mr. Shipo, I'm going to have to ask you to leave now."

    Group: "BYE SHIPO!"

    "Goodbye gang and thanks, I feel better already."

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • sysadmin1sysadmin1 Member Posts: 122
    HAHAHA

    LOVE my 05 6MT Sedan!!!!!

    GO SHIPO!!!
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    I'd love to survey manual/automatic tranny people about other areas in their life. I bet we'd see differences in

    1) Type of work
    2) entrepreneurial ?
    3) Sort of vacation(cruise,adventurous)
    4) Fitness activity

    etc. The key factor being interested in "working" more for some extra results and entertainment.

    I think this is off topic so i'll stop.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Off topic here maybe, but how about over in "News & Views"?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    1. IT professional MSIT degree
    2. Had some of my own businesses, more for tax reasons
    3. Like to go to random places and just wander and meet people, talk with strangers, etc. I was in France for two weeks for work last month and I had no interest in the touristy things...just like to roam, observe and talk with real people.
    4. Work out when I can, try to eat sensibly and most people would call me thin, but I consider myself a tad overweight at 5-7, 150 lbs.

    Off topic? sure but who knows maybe there are connections among life choices and manual/auto drivers.
  • billherrmannbillherrmann Member Posts: 108
    Shipo: 'Not a fair comparison' ??? why not?
    Stock 330i delivers 214 ft lbs @ 3500.
    Stock CTS delivers 252 ft lbs @ 3200.
    MSRP 330i= $35,700. MSRP CTS= $ 32,440.
    An apples to apples, reasonable comparison I believe. Compare the $4,000. addl. option ZHP to CTS-V. I, along with a lot of other people, really like the CTS styling. I also like the added convenience of having a real TRUNK.
    One final question. Did you get your tee-shirt
    as a result of 3.2 or 3.6 engine?

    Best regards,
    Bill H.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    I'm going to think about it, make a survey and put it in news and views.

    Blue, that really sounds a lot like me!
  • bliceroblicero Member Posts: 3
    Life-long manual driver --never owned an automatic transmission car.

    1. Academic/professional (Higher ed)
    2. No
    3. Went on one cruise; hated it. Prefer to go somewhere and experience the everyday local culture. Not into "adventure" travel.
    4. Walking, biking, weight lifting, swimming --when time and weather permit.

    I have always liked manuals for the control they give the driver. Never tried a DSG or its equivalents, so I don't know what it would be like. My suspicion, though, is that it would be a poor substitute for the real thing.
  • ljwalters1ljwalters1 Member Posts: 294
    too much time on your hands, Shipo!!!
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    BillHerrMann,

    If you had actually read my post you would see that I explained why it wasn't a fair comparison. Your former 330xi is a car that is running around with AWD hardware, and said hardware is both heavy and has a certain amount of mechanical drag associated with it. That makes the 330xi significantly slower and less responsive than a like equipped 330i. The CTS 3.6 has a RWD drive train which (like the 330i) is much more efficient, so no, it wasn't a fair comparison. To make it fair, you would need to compare it to a RWD 330i. As if the AWD components weren't enough of a handicap, the 330xi only comes equipped with (relatively) skinny All-Season tires, which are not at all conducive to good handling. IMHO it isn’t even fair to compare a 330i SP to a 330xi, they just ain't the same.

    Since the lease is up on my 530i SP in a couple of weeks, and since I am going to hold off from getting a new car for a year or so, I've been taking the time to test drive virtually every thing out there, including a CTS 3.6 (automatic, no dealership around here stocks cars with manual transmissions, assuming of course that you can even order one these days). It was quick, however, not as quick as my 530i 5-Speed, which by the way is no match for a 330i 6-Speed. As for handling, sorry, the CTS felt like a land barge compared to my 530i, which once again, isn't in the same league as a 330i SP.

    Regarding trunk space; who cares? We are talking Performance Sedans here, and like it or not, trunk space is not something high on the priority list of most folks shopping for this type if car. Will the 330i hold three bags of golf clubs? Yes. Good enough!

    Regarding the pricing numbers you've been throwing around, me thinks you're playing it a little loose. I configured both cars as follows (which is how I would order them were I going to do so today):

    Cadillac CTS Luxury Sport: $41,385
    BMW 330i, PP, SP, Xenon, Heated Front Seats: $40,995

    The only option that the CTS has that the 330i doesn't have is the UGO, which is an after market accessory costing $145. In the end, those two cars are as Apples to Apples as it gets, and the BMW costs a whopping $245 less. Sorry, I cannot get too excited about the price difference. What I can get excited about is the difference in how they DRIVE (note, not just how they accelerate), and in that comparison, the Cadillac finished a very distant second.

    Enjoy your CTS.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • potemkinpotemkin Member Posts: 195
    LOL. Made my day, Shipo.

    If you need any support during your time in the wilderness, we're all here for you.

    I've been driving for 25 years and I've only owned 5 cars. I tend to be 'clingy', I guess. And yep, everyone of them had a manual tranny. I'm not sure I'd know how to drive an auto. As an friend once told me, "I can't drive an auto. I'd get bored and fall asleep at the wheel."

    Remember: "It's not an addiction. It's a lifestyle choice."
  • billherrmannbillherrmann Member Posts: 108
    Shipo:

    If you had actually read my LAST post. You would realize that I was only pointing out that it was reasonable to compare 330i to CTS. NOT 330xi with its obvious performance drawbacks.

    Per Edmunds Cad CTS 3.6 list $ 32,440
    add Lux pkg PDL 3,165
    " Sport pkg PDX 1,875
    " shipping 695
    Total MSRP $38,175
    lets strive for accuracy in our posts.

    Enjoy your Bimmer

    Best regards<
    Bill H
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    From the horses' mouth (the Cadillac web site):

    2005 CTS Luxury Sport: $41,385

    I cannot speak to the accuracy of the Edmunds numbers.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I wouldn't trust Edmunds on ANY of their figures. Or go to Carsdirect - they actually sell cars. Edmunds is always off, in my experience...and I've helped about 5 people buy cars in the past 2-3 years.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,586
    I get my pricing from KBB.. They seem to be more accurate, and their software will flag you, if you try to add incompatible options..

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  • danf1danf1 Member Posts: 897
    I do the same. I price cars there, and waste my time here.
  • ljwalters1ljwalters1 Member Posts: 294
    are Edmund's #s generally low or high? Are you talking about the MSRP or list price? What about they're "What people are paying" #s? I'm not being a smart-guy - I just usually rely on Edmunds' #s and want some education.
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