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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • kahunahkahunah Posts: 448
    Not true. For the Hyundai XG350, CR reports:

    1. Government Side Crash tests results where rated "Very Good" for both driver and rear passenger.

    2. The IIHS Frontal Offset Crash test was rated "Good" overall.
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    But Hyundai would be crazy to enter the market now, when their cars cant even compete well with camrys and accords, except on price.

    they would be skipping quite a few steps if they tried now, and the risk of failure would be far higher.

    even, more established german brands like vw, try to ease in their transition, eg the passat is slowly moving upmarket and the phaeton clearly is, though the brand still isnt.

    and if vw has so much trouble, and may yet not succeed, imagine how much more difficult it woulf be for hyundai.

    the xg350 may be a great car by hyundai standards. but do you really think its competitive ?
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    Just because Toyota, Nissan and Honda made it to the top doesn't mean that Hyundai has a place reserved on that gravy train. Evidence 1: Hyundai sales have been off quite a bit this year. Evidence 2: they just have to up incentives by quite a bit.

    I think it's much more likely Hyundai will join Mazda/Mitsu/Subaru as 2nd tier brand.
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    Hyundai (and its corporate sister Kia) doesn't produce any car that is really performance oriented. Not even the Tiburon, which is more (good) looks over performance. Will be interesting to see if/when they try to get into the performance sedan market. Due to tooling and other issues, doubt they'll be selling a RWD car in USA any time soon.

    [But I will say that my work '00 Hyundai Sonata GLS V6 with 5-speed manual, TC, and ABS has been quite reliable and a pleasant car to own & drive.]
  • wco81wco81 Posts: 541
    If Hyundai or any other low-priced brand wanted to enter the luxury market, they'd have to first create a new brand like Honda, Nissan and Toyota did.
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    Honda, Nissan & Toyota are the top 3 of reliability. Without that, my guess is they would not have challenged the Europeans successfully. Most of the other Japanese makes and Hyundai are not in the same reliability league. Although I heard Hyundai did make some giant strides.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Posts: 650
    Before Hyundai can reach Honda, Toyota and Nissan in quality, they should be able to surpass Mazda, Subaru, and Mitsubishi. Aside from Mitsu, which I think it is absolute junk, Hyundai has not gone past Mazda or Subaru.
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    speedracer3... Only time will tell. Mazda, Mitsu, and Subaru are 2nd-tier players in their home market (behind market leaders Toyota and Nissan). Hyundai, which also owns Kia, at least dominates its home market. And Hyundai's sales in USA have exploded. Don't they outsell the Mazda, Mitsu, and Subarau in USA? Hyundai is expanding production in USA and Europe. And Hyundai is not part of some other automotive company's corporate empire (e.g., Mazda=Ford).
  • kahunahkahunah Posts: 448
    ...if any car maker can do it, Hyundai can. Hyundai Heavy Industries is the world's largest shipbuilder -- a title they took away from the Japanese many years ago. In fact, they lead the world in shipbuilding technology. My guess is that if/when Hyundai (the car company) decides to launch a luxury car brand, they will no doubt become serious competitors...however long it takes.
  • I agree that near luxury cars have to offer some type of performance, i think that the ES330 competes closely with a MB 240/320, but not with a BMW 325/330, IS300, G35, etc. The Kia Amanti is an ugly looking car with a wealth of standard luxuries, but of course it's not a performance car. Even if Hyundai puts a 3.5L V6 with 250hp and 240 torque in a Sonata, what about the tranny, braking, suspension, etc, and all of those other important components that keep that power in check. I do not think that Hyundai is up to that level of performance yet. I traded in a 2002 Sonata V6 for A Mitsu GTS, only because I wanted a family size car with above average performance. I agree that a separate luxury division would be better for Hyundai/Kia, because there would be a stigma: Who would pay $30K for an entry level luxury Korean car, when you can buy a loaded Accord/Camry/Altima/Galant/6, etc.
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    as long as they dont go under trying.

    if a company cant even build small reliable cars, yet start making public statements about investing heavily in bringing out a luxury performance platform, i'd dump their stock.

    i also wouldnt be surprised if credit dried up as lenders lose confidance.

    will hyundai be another daewoo ?
  • pg48477pg48477 Posts: 309
    Hyundai is a large company, and they probable can afford building new engine, trany and suspension, but why? The only reason Honda and Toyota were successful because of their reliability, which was way better than any competition. Hyundai, on the other hand, have only average reliability, it's got better in a past, but it takes years to build a name. It took Nissan/Infiniti more than 10 years to come up with vehicles worth considering luxury, not to mention they almost ran out of business, and were bought by Renoult. Hyundai may be have enof money to try , but Kia will go under in no time.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    No one is saying that Hyundai is going to stir things up in the entry-level luxury market any time soon.

    Give 'em some time.
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    they probable can afford building new engine, trany and suspension, but with below average reliability. so the only reason to buy hyundai would be price.

    certainly not reliability, luxury or performance.
  • danny1878danny1878 Posts: 339
    It isnt impossible for hyundai to become a serious competitor in the entry-level-luxury market. To me, hyundai is the most aggressive car manufacturer.

    The problem is market leaders like Toyota and Honda always make innovations and enhancements too, they just dont stand still. They can be beaten if their product became overpriced, lack of innovation/enhancement.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "they probable can afford building new engine, trany and suspension, but with below average reliability. so the only reason to buy hyundai would be price."

    They've greatly improved on the reliability area.

    Tied with Honda for 2002 models. Of course, their older models are average or below-average.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Of course, still imitates other designs (hey, but who doesn't!) action=display&num=1081522745

    Looks like an A6 mated with an Accord.
  • kahunahkahunah Posts: 448
    Your statement "hyundai = below average reliability" is only true about what most people think. The fact is that Hyundai reliability is in the average to good range, according to CR. Half of their models are recommended by CR, whereas none of the MB or Audi models are recommended because of reliability issues (not that I'm comparing them).

    Remember Toyota, Honda and Datsun in the early years? Would you have bought one of those cars? Hyundai certainly deserves a lot more credit than what most people give the company, and if they play their cards right, they have a very bright future ahead of them. Will that future include a luxury brand? Who knows? To some, who cares? I just find it very interesting to see how a car company slowly and deliberately improves their products and increases their market share. It may be a little like watching a flower grow but one day, it will bloom.
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    ".D. Power and Associates, a marketing and research firm, said its annual Initial Quality Survey, which looks at problems in the first 90 days of ownership, put Hyundai's 2002 vehicles below the industry average. "I am a little surprised that they rank them near the top next to Honda," says Brian Walters, Power's director of product research. "But I am not surprised to hear that Hyundai products are getting better."

    im also surprised 2 hear that they rank near honda. in fact, since im not a public figure being quoted in a well circulated broadsheet, i would go s far s 2 say, that, ranking hyundai as above average cals into question the credibility of their ranking process.
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    possible, yes. probably, no.

    i would say its more probably that hyundai will b a footnote like daewoo, then it will b a serious auto player, let alone n auto player with n offering in the entry level luxury sedan market.

    toyota and honda have no offerings in the entry level luxury sedan market. even their luxury brands r still not 100% accepted. and they constantly have 2 offer significantly more for less price, 2 compete with the likes of mb and bmw.

    @ least they can say they have great reliability and lower maintenance costs. what has hyundai got 2 offer ?
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    i remember toyota. honda and datsun from the early days. they didnt even try 2 enter this end of the market till 20 years later. after dominating the mainstream car segment.

    part of the reason they could survive those early years was the lack of competition and the unique circumstance of having oil price rise suddenly.

    those 2 pre conditions for survival no longer exists.

    as to hyundai = below average reliability, i think thats fairly well accepted and what most people think. very few people will actually accpet that hyundai have japanese car reliability until they really start to see 10 year old hyundais still trouble free and on our roads.

    that may yet happen, but not for another 10 years or so. may be longer.

    in the meanwhile, will hyundai run out of money ?
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Check out for initial quality ratings for 2003.

    Mechanical Quality:
    Accord: 3
    Camry: 3
    Sonata: 4

    Feature and Accessory Quality:
    Accord: 4
    Camry: 4
    Sonata: 4

    Body and Interior Quality:
    Accord: 2
    Camry: 5
    Sonata: 5

    "@ least they can say they have great reliability and lower maintenance costs. what has hyundai got 2 offer?"

    Pretty good reliability, good quality, a great warranty, and a great price for the features. Still has lots of room to improve regarding engine power.

    *Moderator: Although they're kinda off-topic, I hope you don't delete these posts since they consider the viability/worthiness of a new manufacturer entering this segment (some time in the future.) =)
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    out of 37 nameplates :

    lexus 1st
    infinity 2nd
    acura 5th
    hyundai 31st
    kia 37th
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Re: vdi 2003 rankings

    That study surveys cars that are 3 years old, not 2003 models.

    We all know that Hyundais from that time are not up to par in reliability.

    But by most indications, Hyundais have made great strides in the reliability department. - LDER%3C%3Efolder_id=402631&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=389451&- - bmUID=1078916491036

    I do agree with you, that many people (such as yourself) still perceive Hyundais as trouble prone cars. Also, the jury is still out on the long-term reliability of these vehicles.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    A 10 year warranty has all but eliminated past concerns from the original excel era. The warranty's are nearly costless according to insiders as there is no tranferability and most people wont keep the car for more than 4 years. Thier repuation is much improved and with US and japanse investements in Huyundia they will only get better. They weren't around in 1980 here in US and are now 3rd largerst carmaker I believe and sell more than Chrysler here at home.
  • fjm1fjm1 Posts: 137
    My .02: Aggressive TQM coupled with very low total costs of operation spell success for Hyundai. They will not target premium brands until after they have big market share on volume niches like compact and mid size family sedan. The biggest wild card I see is their politics. Could fowl up the whole plan.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Posts: 650
    made great strides. Their cars are A LOT better than what they were just a few years ago. They still have a ways to go before they catch up with the big 3 Japanese manufacturers. My biggest beef with Hyundai is that their designs are derivative and not very original. I see Jaguar and Mercedes in some, the new Tibby rips from Ferrari. I guess if you are going to copy do it from the best.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    They do hire italdesign firms
  • wco81wco81 Posts: 541
    The biggest wild card I see is their politics. Could fowl up the whole plan.

    What does that mean?
  • fjm1fjm1 Posts: 137
    North Korea nuclear ambitions will remain a drag on South Korea's sovereign credit ratings. Check Moody's rating over past few years. Roller coaster anyone?

    I did not mean the companies politics, per say. Profuse apologies for any confusions.

    On-Topic: G35 rocks!
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