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Comments
-Frank
Where is our snow?! We have less than 30" for the entire winter (since October) - less than half of normal. Due to sublimation, there may be as much as 10" on the ground, and that is just nothing. I don't think it has even snowed since maybe mid-December.
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2010/02/2011-ford-transit-connect-elect- ric-revealed-before-2010-chicago-auto-show.html
I think this vehicle is perfect for taxi duty. I hope they also bring over the diesel version which is sold in Europe.
Bob
Bob
Perhaps some of the Subie track folk might have interest in trying it out to see if it helps their turbos run better? I'm giving it a try in my XT and may have some info in a month or so on it.
And as for taxi service, this class of van maybe the closest thing to a Checker Marathon anyone has yet to come up with.
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
Huh. I will have to take a closer look at it the next time I drive by. This site includes a photo of a grey one about half-way down the page - called a Checker Aerobus Limousine.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kikifl/3232407525/in/set-72157613029012961/
Bob
These things were all about function and utility. Styling? It was a pure afterthought if not an accident; which was 180 degrees from what Detroit was offering at the time. These vehicle were essentially a hodgepodge of often discarded parts from the Big Three (Chevy engines, bumpers from early Kaisers [I think], etc.), collected and assembled on a heavy-duty, truck-like chassis (note the 8-ply tire option).
How about that spec sheet? It read as a Detroit playbook from the 1950s, even though it was probably written in the 1970s or 80s. I love this: "Less than 200 inches over-all—no useless overhang..." Can you imagine an ad writer today using those words? It's a classic WYSIWYG, what-you-see-is-what-you-get. No words minced here. Conservative to the core. It's the perfect vehicle for John Birchers.
Bob
Found this tidbit over at Cars 101.
Bob
I'd buy a 2011 Sienna if I were replacing my '07 Sienna today.
If anything, they're under a microscope, and such scrutiny will ensure any potential problems are fixed ASAP.
The Toyota stand at the auto show was quite busy, and people who have gone to see the new 2011 Sienna reported normal or even high levels of showroom traffic.
They'll lose some sales, but they'll be fine.
Consumers have short memories, and hopefully things will really get better. We'll see.
I looked at 6 random makes and models and every single one had complaints!
Now people who make a mistake (foot slips from brakes to gas pedal) have a scape goat to blame. Toyota is gonna take it on the chin for all of those cases, big time.
Hmm, you own a Toyota, people seem eager to believe it...yeah, that's the ticket. Sudden acceleration!
This is great, it's like having no decuctible on my Sienna's collision insurance. Sweet!
60 minutes showed a clip of an Audi surging forward but neglected to mention they had rigged it mythbuster style. Audi sales dropped 80% and took 12 years to recover. Absolute hack journalism by 60 Minutes on that one. Always thought that the real law suit should have been Audi suing CBS. The one good thing to come of it was safety features across all makes and models to prevent surging when coming out of park.
Remember the old joke? What's a driver's worst nightmare?
Being stuck in traffic in front of an Audi and behind a Pinto.
Oh, should I mention that I am wearing my big winter boots and am pressing both brake and accelerator simultaneously? No, no... that's totally irrelevant, right? How could something like that be my fault? :sick:
Maybe as an engineer I've been reading too many of the trade articles on this pedal return issue. The spring spacer fix is supposed to increase return tension. So perhaps I have the 'tainted' view that in this particular case there is some real evidence of early elevated failures that were not caught in the accelerated life testing.
True, the failure rate is low, the number of accidents in the dozens, and the death rate only a handful. Maybe that is an acceptable outcome. But I was schooled in the 6 sigma philosophy, so I have a problem with all of this.
I'll give you another example. Honda Odyssey vans are having a problem with front coil spring failures. There is a growing list of complaints about the first turn snapping off and puncturing the front tires or snagging the brake line. Only a few tragic accidents to date, but OdyClub has it's own list in addition to the NHTSA records. Honda says its within normal fail limits (?). NHTSA so far seems to agree. Honda won't pay a dime towards repairs on failed units. The other day I pulled my front tires to look, and sure enough at exactly the 7/8 first turn, I have the telltale rust patch. I told my wife, and I'll probably be proactive and install new springs. So gentlemen, what is the acceptable fatality rate (of the springs, and of lives)?
I just do not think that the fatalities involved with this are necessarily Toyota's fault. Drivers need to accept the responsibility of being competent at their task and far too many are not. It is not when things are going right that one can discern the competent drivers: It is when things go wrong.
I was thinking about this whole gas pedal thing, and while I've only heard of a few stories, do other people know of cases of 'stuck' gas pedals with the old mechanical ones? I'm guessing the numbers are probably the same, or even less with the new drive by wire gas pedals.
tom
You're right, though, Tom - you can sue anybody for anything, and it's really a shame.
As to Corporate responsibility, I do remember well that Ford admitted in court they knew there was a fuel system issue with the Pinto and how to fix it, but their actuaries had calculated that dealing with post accident lawsuits was cheaper than correcting the problem. They decided that the projected 180 deaths would be cheaper than the $11 cost per car so continued to produce the vehicle with the deadly flaw. (Although some now claim this is urban legend which has become true only through incessant repetition.)
http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2010/02/2010-volvo-xc60-t6-awd-aw-cmon.htm- l#comments
Bob
(For reference, the carspace home page is whacky....)
-Brian
tom
For instance, let's say 0.05% is the average rate of unintended acceleration.
If for any model more than double that rate is observed, you target that model for special attention.
Interesting about the Ody springs, especially the part about Honda not paying for repairs even after failures occur. That's odd.
Liability is a slippery slope, though. For Honda to pay for those, they would have to admit a manufacturing defect in the springs. That means they could be held liable for accidents that occur as a result. So it's not just the cost of the springs and labor to replace them, but also the liability.
Many class action suits are popping up against Toyota, even one for the adverse affect on resale values. :sick:
Yes, here come the vultures. :mad:
The lawyers get $100 million, and 1 million Toyota owners get one dollar each. :P
we seem to 'take it for granted' that there will be 'glitches' with computers ... well how many computer chips does it take to run a car these days? Shouldn't we 'expect' some glitches? ...I know .. it's safety ... a bit different if one in my car malfunctions as opposed to the one on my desktop ...
I had some correspondence with Fred Diaz, the CEO of Chrysler's Ram brand late last year. One of the things I told him that drives me nuts about my 2005 Ram is that the wipers are now controlled by the body computer. Sounds like a "who cares", right?
Here's why it mattered to me and probably everyone over 35... when we want to make it easier to change our wipers, what did we all do? Turn the key, turn on the wipers, then kill the ignition switch in mid-sweep... the wipers stayed right there, you changed them easily, then you gave them some more juice from the key and parked them in the down position.
Can't do that with computer-controlled wipers. The computer assumes you're an idiot and left them on, and continues to send enough power to make sure they always complete the cycle and park themselves. I've even been fast enough to physically remove the key, and they still finish the cycle every time. Maybe not so bad reaching for a Subie wiper, but for a full-size 4WD pickup? Yeah, that gets old.
And while that may seem like an inconvenience now, it becomes a huge problem if that computer takes a header during bad weather, and now you have no wiper function at all.
Similarly, I used to like leaving the marker lights on when I was temporarily parked at night with my 1996 Ram - anyone who has parked in a snug 7-Eleven lot understands this benefit - especially because that illuminates the dually fenders and keeps others from parking 1 inch away from them. Can't do it with the 2005... the computer again thinks I'm an idiot and turns them off within 30 seconds.
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
Some items are just better left to the driver.
In this recent storm I was turning off the stability control in both vehicles, particularly the Sienna's. It's hyper-active and just kills your momentum going up hills. Thank goodness for the off button.
Depends on the car. Mercedes has many models that "park" the wipers below the surface of the hood so they tell you right in the owner's manual that you have to turn the key when the wipers are up on the windshield.
-Frank
Most electronics and electromechanical systems go thru accelerated life testing to find future failure modes. I used to rely heavily on Mil Std 883 as a basis when I designed rel tests. While this std is required for mil hardware, it either contains watered down stds for commercial/industrial, and consumer parts, or points you in the right direction.
To quote: "This standard establishes uniform methods, controls, and procedures for testing microelectronic devices suitable for use within Military and Aerospace electronic systems including basic environmental tests to determine resistance to deleterious effects of natural elements and conditions surrounding military and space operations; mechanical and electrical tests; workmanship and training procedures; and such other controls and constraints as have been deemed necessary to ensure a uniform level of quality and reliability suitable to the intended applications of those devices."
When I hear spokespeople banter about terms like "statistically insignificant failure rates", I cringe. Juice, you mentioned 0.05% in your example. Reduce that to 0.01%, or 100 parts per million that might go bad at some time during the normal lifetime (now that might not seem like a lot, but that's a pretty big tail on a normal distribution when lives could be lost...). And it's additive. There are dozens of 'mission critical' parts in the system, hundreds in the vehicle. And Toyota produced a few million vehicles last year worldwide. Starting to see the picture? Too many failure opportunities.
Now, agree, Toyota is not alone. It is an industry wide problem, and maybe it's just their turn to get slapped down. I think they brought it upon themselves by blaming the customer first.
Piecing together info from several reports, it sounds like CTS (pedal maker) may have moisture intrusion at certain temps causes sticking in a damper, leading to it not retracting with the stock return spring. Probably a seal is not doing it's job at some combo of temperature and humidity levels. These are tough things to test for. What temp? What humidity? MS-883 calls out 85'C/81%RH and pressure cooker tests for plastic encapsulated components. Probably not right for this assembly. It would take gobs of engineering analysis to come up with the right test conditions. Or combo of test conditions. Remember that cars live in hostile environments with wide cyclic swings in conditions.
Another aspect is sub-component supplier monitoring and control. The assembly might have been perfect when they went into production, but a slip on the part of one of CTS's supplier might have put them into this box. Someone makes the damper, and that damper is made up of a half dozen parts sourced from other suppliers. O-ring suppliers get raw materials from some petro-chemical supplier. The nightmare of Supply Chain Management.
Net, I'm not advocating hanging the company or the good engineering staff that landed in this mess. But, ignoring a problem - even the hint of a problem - is dead nuts the wrong approach.
How much is the driver at fault? If you are on this board, I'll bet you'd have an excellent chance of survival. What about your 17 year old daughter, or 70 y.o. mother? Or maybe half the people you work with? Not sure in the CTS case, but someone said that with some of these designs, simply lifting the pedal would not disengage the throttle sender. Stuck is stuck, until the damper releases.
Another short story - Just before Christmas, a guy with a '07 (?) Ford Fusion had a sudden runaway backing out of his parking space. I always park next to a lightpole, and he ran backwards into the concrete, barely missing my front left fender. Instead of killing the ignition, he put it into drive!!, crashing into the back of a truck, and shoving it into another car before getting smart. Yes, he temporarily lost his good sense. It happens.
1. Lack of thoroughness in testing new cars and car parts under varying weather conditions;
2. Failure in gathering information from customer complaints; and an
3. Inability to analyze and act quickly on complaints.
To save money there was a reliance on virtual (computerized) testing rather than actual real-world testing on new models.
Not a pretty picture. Toyota will end up paying for this with repairs, fines, and lawsuits.
-Frank
I honestly believe that driver's licenses are too easy to get in North America as if they are a right. I cannot be sure now, but traditionally the tests were much more demanding in Europe. Requiring better training and testing might improve some of those tragic outcomes. It has been shown that young drivers taking formal driver's ed had lower accident rates for example.
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2010/02/european-version-of-the-2011-to- yota-rav4-will-debut-in-geneva.html
Bob
-Frank