By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
Looking like a cross between an E-Series Ford van and a Mercedes/Dodge/Freightliner Sprinter, Nissan introduced their long-anticipated commercially-oriented full-size vans at the truck show in St. Louis yesterday. These will be available later in the fall in 1/2-, 3/4- and 1-ton configurations. The 3/4- and 1-ton models will also be available with Sprinter-like high-roof versions. Initially these vans will be powered by the excellent 4.0 V6 and 5.6 V8, with a Cummins diesel rumored to come at some later date. A 12-passenger bus version is also slated for down the road. They will be built at Nissan's Canton, Mississippi factory.
Note that the long hood (for a van) could easily convert over to a HD pickup, should Nissan decide to build one, which is quite likely.
So plumbers, electricians and tradesmen everywhere should be happy with this one.
Bob
I've been trying to find something that meets the towing requirement without relegating ourselves to the gas mileage, driving dynamics, and size of a something like a Tahoe. A V6 Rav4 was on the list, but the Outback's 2,700 lb tow rating also looks promising.
Any real world experiences you've had, or heard from reliable sources? Thanks for any input you can provide.
I have always had a soft spot for full-size vans, so I am glad to see the competition picking up in this market. GM made gorgeous vans through the '80s and into the '90s, but since then vans have (visually) left much to be desired. Maybe the competition will work to increase the aesthetics a bit along with their functionality.
My concern would be the CVT, can it handle the load in a sustained manner. It is rated, at least.
I'm wondering if he was just trying to get out of a speeding ticket!
tom
I don't get why he had that much time and didn't think to put it in Neutral. The operator on the phone asked if he could get it out of gear, but I don't think the driver heard him.
The police officer pulled along side, and told him to hit the brakes and the emergency brake. He also told him to "hit" the ignition switch, but you have to HOLD it for 3 seconds. The cop didn't even think about the neutral trick.
What shocks me is all this media attention and people still don't know what to do!
His response was he couldn't. He was afraid it would flip the car over.
Neutral flip a car? :confuse:
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
Also, if Nissan decides to go ahead with their HD (and LD too) pickup plans, they can use everything forward of the cab's "B" pillar virtually intact.
Bob
http://www.detnews.com/article/20100311/AUTO01/3110370/1148/Rattner--Michigan-sa- - ved-by-fed-bailout
Bob
Should be interesting to follow their reports over the coming year.
Bob
Not hard to find. I shared 2 and stopped looking, but I'm sure there were more.
Overall Honda had 206 complaints and Toyota had 62 (for that model year).
I still think it's operator error most of the time. Here's a good Op/Ed from the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/opinion/11schmidt.html?pagewanted=1&ref=opinio- n
As the author suggests, and as I wrote here two weeks ago - Toyota must update the software on all prior year cars immediately to include "smart pedal" accelerator override. It is a simple fix, and would go a long way towards separating 'human neuromotor' errors from mechanical/electronic failure. It is a very simple code fix. I would think that any vehicle that is OBD-II CAN compliant already has the hooks and integration between the brake and engine control system to make this simple, and even some of the older ISO and other protocol systems probably have the integration to make this work.
Any lingering concerns that Toyota might have about 'potential lawsuits from admission of possible fault' is just plain foolish. That ship has already sailed. They are in deep, and the runaway Prius and other public events only helps to insure that their fate will parallel Audi's in the view of the American consumer.
Lets face it. While the runaway Prius event could have ended quickly had the driver simply listened to the dispatcher or the officer that repeatedly told him to shift into neutral. His comment that it might flip the car shows mechanical ignorance. True. But the burned out brakes testify that his foot wasn't on the accelerator, and his attempts to manually lift the accelerator failed. Whether Toyota wants to admit it or not, there is a real problem here.
The authors comment that these types of problems predate throttle by wire are true, but don't discredit the issue of electronics as still possibly being at fault. Since my first experience with EFI on my new 1979 Datsun, it's been a basic that the throttle pedal only regulates the opening of a butterfly in the air intake. Air movement past the MAP/MAF sends a signal to the ECU, and that determines fuel flow. An IAC issue won't send your car into a 90mph state, but it can blip the engine to as much as 2k RPM. At the wrong time, that could be the difference between a near miss, or a moderate crash.
Top-end "Pursuit" models come with a 365-hp EcoBoost 3.5L V6 and AWD. More mundane models will come in either FWD or AWD.
I wonder what they did to beef up these cars for police-duty?
Bob
I just think this even was a little too fishy- that's all. I mean, my son is learning how to drive and I just taught him how to shift the car into neutral if he has to. It took all of 2 seconds for him to learn.
I can make my breaks work harder too- just push both the accelerator and brake at the same time. I'm wondering if he's one of those left foot break people, so maybe he was pushing both at the same time?
Anyway, I've been trying to avoid being in front of Toyotas these days. I don't want to get rear ended by someone who wants to file a lawsuit against them! :surprise:
tom
The Prius incident is new and has brought even more attention when the public was already looking.
They have the car so let's see what they find, i.e. was the pedal stuck physically or was it purely electronics? The driver's attempts to lift it did fail, but that doesn't mean it wasn't physically stuck.
One BIG plus - the car was not damaged, so investigators can inspect the pedals closely. Other incidents with fiery crashes destroy whatever evidence there may have been.
I'm not discredited the possibility of electronic issues, or sensors, or whatever, but I troubleshoot for a living and we tend to search for patterns of repeatable failures. Why are 99.9% of them fine? What is unique about the ones that did fail?
They have the Prius so let's see what they find.
The typical bigger brakes, beefier suspension, re-tuned stability control.
The big thing is probably the upgraded subframe which I presume is from the forth coming Explorer which is based on the Taurus unibody.
The article even states another PI coming later - probably the new Explorer or the Flex.
Weren't the fleet Crown Vics something like $20 grand base?
Oh, here's a link into the guy's past, which is questionable:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,589090,00.html
It is sounding even more fishy to me. . .
I think the real story here is that a lot of people seemed to eager to believe every word he was saying. There's a strong bias against Toyota.
With the brake override, the excuse about not hearing the 911 operator's instructions to use Neutral, plus this:
than $700,000 in debt and owed roughly $19,000 on his Prius
The guy wanted a free car, let's face it.
http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-ac- celeration
Early on I said it: let's wait for the investigation before jumping to conclusions.
* his Prius does have brakes that override the throttle
* the guy is 3/4ths of a million dollars in debt
* he still owes $19,000 to Toyota
* Sikes has a history of items in his possession being stolen and him filing for insurance claims
* Sikes owned and operated a web site called AdultSwingLife.com.
* There's also a report from KTLX with a neighbor stating he may have been involved in the porn industry.
Man I swear I could not make this stuff up!
HYSTERICAL!
Sikes owns a Corvette and was a member of the local Corvette club, yet he believes that putting a Prius in to Nuetral would "flip the car"?
Ford's press release:
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=32207
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
Besides, in Australia, the UK, and in many other markets, Subaru WRXs (AWD & turbocharged) are widely used as police cars. Even STIs are being used as cop cars. So there is a market for that type of cop car.
If you google WRX police cars, you'll find a ton of them. Here are just a couple.
http://maxpowermag.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/dsc_6340.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b0/Singapore_Subaru_Impreza_WRX_EPatr- ol.jpg
Bob
Vehicles like the WRX are successful in other countries because the infrastructure isn't as spread out as in the US. Picture something the size of a Vic trying to maneuver in suburban/rural Britain or the villages in Germany. Plus, I can't see a way for a WRX or other compact car to meet the 75-mph rear crash certification. (For those not familiar, such a crash must result in no perforation of the fuel tank and zero fuel leakage.)
Chevy's next offering in the police arena will be a heavily modified rear-drive Holden Caprice, because there's nothing in GM's US portfolio that will do the job and be cost-effective to build. (The Vic gets away with being a fleet-only build because of the taxi sales, the Grand Marquis, and the Town Car.) And about the same time as the new Ford and Chevy units are available, the redesigned Charger police vehicle should also be ready. The 2011 Michigan State Police vehicle tests should be very interesting!
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
Sorry, I don't buy your argument that RWD makes for the ultimate police car. I'm with Ford on this one.
Bob
We'll see!
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
No they wouldn't. They wouldn't be able to do high-speed pursuits, or handle like this SHO-based cop car can. Not even close.
Bob
(See Bob, we still got it - haven't had a good debate like this since the C/D on AOL boards way back when!)
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
Regardless, I think police cars are long overdue in terms of what works best now, and in the future. The old line thinking (aka: if it ain't broke, don't fix it) just won't cut it anymore. There are better solutions out there.
I personally believe that AWD is better for police cars, just as it has proven to be the case in most racing venues. In fact several racing sanctioning bodies outlaw AWD, as it gives an unfair advantage to those so equipped. Top performance cars from virtually all the major sports car brands are opting for AWD (Porsche Turbo, Nissan GT-R, Bugatti, Ferrari, to name a few), or are at least looking into it. If it works for them, then it can work for cops.
AWD is better in the rain, and is better on virtually any surface than RWD or FWD—and everyone knows how good it is in the snow. I'm convinced that the days of RWD police cars are numbered. Eventually they will be seen as dinosaurs, and become extinct.
I'm going to be very curious as to how this new AWD Taurus copster pans out.
Bob
Well in my comparable survey of one - my small town of 20K has exactly 1 SUV and that's for DARE duty. The local PD uses CV's for duty - including snow storms. Having a couple of SUV's around for that duty wouldn't make sense. What would all the other on-duty officers do - hang out at the station?
An AWD patrol car will have a harder time doing a 180° (cops are taught how to do this), and using the twin-turbo EcoBoost means a lot of coked blowers since police won't be thinking about letting the engine "spin down" before shutting it off.
Speaking to my neighbor who is a LEO, although they are trained to do 180's, drive over curbs, et al, the typical suburban duty most officers do involves little abuse on the vehicles. Driving at 9/10ths, pulling 180's at 40 mph and hopping curbs is mainly movie stuff. Perhaps the state police would need something stouter, but even for them, 99% of the time, it's highway crusing.
As for spinning down the turbo, one would do that only if they have just come in from a high-revving jaunt. Most officers are shutting down after driving around for a couple of hours of patrolling the streets.
Why do they use CV's? One simple reason - they meet the budget numbers.
It is a disk or drum rear brake?
Usually parking brakes use existing drums, but if it's a disc the mechanisms are seperate.
Either way, I hope Toyota sues HIM for slander.
Did you see the SNL skit on the Prius? It was a fake Ford commercial.
Funny, but I'm sure Toyota is furious.
The congressional memo said both the front and rear brakes were worn and damaged by heat, consistent with Sikes saying that he stood on the brake pedal with both feet and was unable to stop the car.
Here's another direct quote:
Every time the technician placed the gas pedal to the floor and the brake pedal to the floor the engine shut off and the car immediately started to slow down. NHTSA and Toyota field representatives reported the same results with the 2008 Prius owned by Mr. Sikes.
Also, the techs were unable to duplicate the unintended acceleration.
So in order to believe Mr Sikes (who is of very questionable character to begin with) you would have to have 2 system failures. The accelerator would have to be stuck, and the brake override would have to fail. Which is even fishier since both seem to be working perfectly well now.
If you look at motive- Sikes has everything to gain and Toyota doesn't have much more to lose.
Sorry, I just can't believe Sikes' story.
He did get a new idea for his next porn movie, though:
Unintended Insemination
The brakes on the Prius also did not show wear consistent with having been applied at full force at high speeds for a long period, the Wall Street Journal reported Saturday, citing three people familiar with the probe, whom it did not name. The newspaper said the brakes may have been applied intermittently.
http://www.suntimes.com/business/2101824,runaway-prius-investigation-031410.arti- cle
Case closed. This was a hoax.
The one positive thing that will come out of this is an objective, fully researched result. Something that hasn't happened so far while Toyota held all of the cards. As one skilled in the art of root cause analysis of electrical and mechanical failures, I don't feel that Toyota has been very forthcoming to date. Just an opinion....
And again, even if this case turns out to be a complete, well executed fraud, it doesn't dismiss or negate the 100's of prior events.
No, and I agree that Toyota has not been forthcoming, but it does cast doubt onto those prior events; doubt is all Toyota really needs to potentially save itself billions in settlement money.
The ISO implementation of OBD-II on my 2002 OBW is a pretty simplistic setup, basically using 1993 vintage computer power. I have a laptop scan tool, and with it I can drive around and do realtime datalogging of up to 6 engine functions output by this crude black box. Speed, RPM, throttle position, engine load, etc. – any 6 from a list of 20. If it was a newer car with CAN, and I had the adapters for the more complex proprietary codes, I could also log transmission performance, brakes, seatbelts, airbags & the weight range of the person occupying each seat, tire pressure, probably even the song playing on the radio! Do you remember Patti feeling us out about how we felt about the enormous logging power already present in our early decade cars?
With my present system, a day of driving creates a compressed log of a few hundred kilobytes. On a modern system, you could conceivably revisit every second of driving time during the past year saved on the 8Gig thumb drive I wear around my neck. We’re talking about access to a mountain of information for about $20 per car. Is anyone actually mining large quantities of data? If anybody is, you can bet Toyota is a leader among them.
Toyota is routinely downloading data from suspect vehicles, but is extremely secretive about the encoded content. Didn’t they say that there was only 1 or 2 laptops in the US that could pull the logs? Are they disclosing what they know on previous cases? Only what they want to, and in the past it has been a simple statement along the lines of “it didn’t show anything useful”. There have been numerous complaints about this, yet to date I’ve not heard of anybody suing for the printouts.
So, how does this relate to the Sikes case? To prosecute this case, they will need more than circumstantial data. So far the investigators have only shown that they couldn’t reproduce the fail. Sikes lawyers response is that this is no different than any Toyota investigation to date. Quite true. In order to successfully prosecute, Toyota would have to open the vault and show the goods. That will open them to a 1000 retaliatory suits in which actual crash victims will demand the full datalogs on their cars. Toyota cannot afford this, as you can be sure not every one of them shows Toyota to be squeaky clean.
As a foreign friend once said to me: "This is the theory which is mine"...
Maybe early on, but lately it's the media that has all the power.
The Sikes case was front-page news, but will the correction garner the same attention?
There's no question the import brands (Audi, now Toyota) are not treated the same as the domestics. Look at how Dateline apologized to GM about the side-saddle gas tanks.
Do you really think we'll hear any apologies to Toyota for the Sikes case? Don't hold your breath.
I doubt all Toyota execs were 100% ethical, or at the very minimum they apply optimistic thinking and look for other sources of blame (CTS, floor mats, driver error, etc).
Funny again, as for years I've felt that the media has had it out for US makers, particularly GM & Chrysler. Consumer Reports, for one, rarely has anything nice to say about them, and CU is far from alone! The imports, particularly Toyota, could do no wrong.
Frankly, Juice, I think you are too focused on the Sikes case, and are ignoring the big picture. It's become a great smokescreen that is obscuring the real deal. Toyota needs to stop apologizing, and get down to the business of full disclosure in all the cases before them. If they show all what they are datalogging and it confirms their innocence, more power to them. If the evidence proves some of the car owners are correct, then they have to fix the problems, no matter what the cost to their reputation or pocketbook. It is the right thing to do. It's called Corporate Responsibility, and I feel it is sadly lacking.
In this case I'm talking about mainstream media - CNN, the networks, Yahoo, etc.
I actually agree that the automotive press has been harsh (although deservingly so) on the domestic brands. With Ford selling the old Focus, GM deleting balance shafts to save a couple of bucks, and Chrysler putting out 3 speed automatics in Neons with power front but no power rear windows, well, they deserved it.
CR has ceased from recommend all the affected Toyotas. In their April issue Toyota kinda takes a beating.
You should join this thread:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.efda853/7193#MSG7193
The Sikes story persists because several people still believe it!
I'm not sure why I'm defending Toyota, but it's probably that I tend to take a Devil's Advocate position, and people are getting hysterical and following a sky-is-falling mentality. Seriously, follow that thread and you'll see what I mean.
Balance is needed. So I've been in the innocent-until-proven-guilty camp.
Also, having a trouble-shooting background, I've found that the most likely scenario (user error) is often what really happened.
Let's see, there are lots of cases. I'm sure LOTS are either fake or user error (foot slipped sort of thing), but I'm not saying that ALL of those cases are fake, either.
Do you really think we'll hear any apologies to Toyota for the Sikes case? Don't hold your breath.
I feel bad continuing to take you to task like this, Juice, but you are not looking at this objectively.
In my book, nobody in the mainstream press ever needed to apologize to GM for covering the actual fiery crashes that cost innocents their lives. It was a design vulnerability that under the right circumstances could rupture the tank at a rate far higher than inboard tanks in Ford trucks like the one I owned at the time. It was a long time ago and I might not have every detail right, but I remember Dateline crossed the line when they rigged the tank with Estes model rocket engines (IIRC??) to be sure the gas ignited. In their early tries, the tanks could be made to rupture on impact, but didn't necessarily catch fire! For filming, they "ensured" the desired outcome. For that they were indeed wrong, and apologized.
So far, and again I may have missed details, the press reporting on the Sikes case seems to be 'factual' in that it reports what both sides stated and claimed happened. The press was pretty quick to add in Sikes checkered past, the governments initial reports, etc. It seems evenhanded to me. If it turns out that Sikes is a crook, the media will be sure to report it, but do they owe Toyota an apology for reporting the story? What did they do wrong?