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Comments
Ppower
Sorry, you still haven't shown me how in the end someone who starts with the same amount of money loses more on the G35c.
Please feel free to break it down. So far I've seen no evidence that a guy with 45k buying a 35k G35c will lose more of his money than he would with a costlier 42k BMW 330ci. In the end he has the same amount of money (assuming the G's resale is that bad). The deprectiation may be greater than the Bimmer's but the G's substantial savings make up for that difference.
Any suggestions? I can probably buy Lexus for around $32k (fully loaded 5-speed).
I test-drove a 3-series, but vibration of the steering wheel felt very cheap.
Accords historically have decent resale and reliability. I just gotta have a Gee though.
It is a question of priorities. It seems that there is a lot of great performance features for the money. This is a meant to be a sportlike car. Sit in my 944 and it is louder and harsher, and sparse interior. Sit in my wife's Mercedes and it's quiet and smooth, great interior. I wouldn't even compare the two except to say they both are great at doing what they're meant to do. I think the "spirit" of the G is and should be more porsche like and less mercedes like.
So, let's not harp forever on the interior, and lets shift onto more on the performance. I plan on driving the crap out of this thing, not going shopping. I might have gone for the 350z except my two boys love to drive in my car too, therefore I need the 2+2 setup.
Rob
"keep the shiny side up"
Can I wait 6 months and get the car below msrp??? I am test driving a Silver one tomorrow with the premium package. Hopefully it drives as good as it looks...
Okay. You go ahead and take a front-plowing, poorly weighted, understeering factory FWD through some switchbacks. Then do the same with any nicely balanced RWD car. The difference is night and day.
One more thing, while flinging an Accord around some switchbacks, hit the straight away at say 65 and accelerate briskly. Can't be done with a Honda V6. Their VTEC system and aversion to torque make the car rather limp when it comes to speeding up.
Well made cars, hondas, but that's where the plaudits end in my book.
What a bunch of BS: "poorly weighted, blah, blah".
I am sorry, but have you driven an Accord Coupe??
You probably would not be able to tell whether it is RWD or FWD: Honda is the only manufacturer with a perfectly balanced and nearly imperceptible FWD system (read a few acticles in Car & Driver about 3.2TL and Accord).
I do realize the some advantages of RWD on the twisty roads but they
are not nearly as noticeable on Hondas as you mention.
Oh, by the way, the Honda steering system is still the best.
1997/1268 lbs or 61%/39% ( http://www.collegehillshonda.com/new/03accord/a2dr03spec.htm or http://www.hagerstownhonda.com/new/AccordCoupe/default.cfm ) . Yeah, that's sure ideal when compared to the 53%/47% design of a G35c.
What an odd comparison! I guess the reason I never thought of this before is the existence of the CL would seem to make the Accordc vs G35c comparo moot. Nevertheless a loaded Accord c would certainly be a PRACTICAL choice. It is a competent car, handles well, and is semi-sporty. Plus it would save about 5k.
BUT... there is still one huge G35 factor that trumps the accord. The G35C looks incredibly, undeniably unique and striking. The G35c will be turning heads for the next two years at least before people will start getting used to it. An Accord remains about the most vanilla car out there. If you prefer the subtle, understated styling of Honda, then you certainly shouldn't be shopping for a G35c.
I think G35c vs. CL-S is a very natural comparison, even though the CL is FWD. C&D declared the CL-S the best handling FWD car they had EVER tested. It barely lost in a comparison to the bimmer.
He works at Grubbs Infiniti in Bedford, Texas.
Ppower
One consumer with $45,000 burning a hole in his bank account wants to purchase an imported sports coupe. The finalists are the BMW 330ci and the Infiniti G35c. In order to compare similar vehicle to consumer goes to the websites of the auto manufacturers and “builds” comparable vehicles. Since this is a hypothetical situation, we can assume that the vehicle can be order exactly as shown and at MSRP. The BMW base price is $35,600, plus $695 freight. To that add $1,450 for leather, $600 for Sport Package, $1,050 Moonroof, $500 Heated Seats, $700 BiXenon Headlights, and $900 for the 18” wheel package. The total for this vehicle is $41,495. The G35 6MT coupe’s base price is $32,050, plus $545 freight and $2,250 for the Premium package, for a total of $34,845. Both vehicles would be equipped with 18” wheels, power sunroof, heated power seats, ABS, traction control, brake assist, stability control and front side airbags. The BMW would have bi-xenons but the Infiniti would have a CD changer. The consumer is satisfied that they are making a “fair”comparison.
The credit union is offering a 36 month CD yielding 3.00%(3.05%APY). The consumer doesn’t have access to leasing residual tables but instead visits a reputable balloon financing company’s website and checks residual values. They are available for almost every vehicle sold in the U.S. Problem the website doesn’t have the G35coupe yet, but they do list the G35 sedan. The consumer says “That’s close enough” and gets down to the number crunching. Both vehicles have EXACTLY THE SAME residual values for 36mo/45K miles 49%! Kind of surprising, huh!?!
Assuming 5% for TTL, the out the door prices are $43,569.75 for the 330ci and $36,587.25 for the G35c. The residual for the BMW is $19,992.00 and the Infiniti is $16,807.00. The consumer excluded the freight from the residual calculation.
The first “cost of ownership” is now clear The BMW depreciated $21,503.00 while the Infiniti was $18,038.00.
The “opportunity cost” of “investing” in a depreciating investment can now be considered . The BMW left $1,430.25 of free cash to put into a CD. With interest, the balance grew to $1,565.15. The Infiniti left $8,412.75 over to invest in a CD, now worth $9,206.23.
Assuming that both vehicles can be sold (after 36 months) at their estimated residual values (this is why leasing would be a better idea) the BMW purchase would have resulted in $21,557.15 left over from the original $45K and the G35 results in $26,013.23.
The easiest argument to challenge is the chosen residual values however the BMW would require a 36 month residual of 60%, or 11% more than the G35 in order to have EQUAL cash values at the end of the 36 months.
TGIF
ace
Typically I think coupes do a BIT worse than Sedans, so figure worst-case is probably 54-53%? Sometimes manual transmissions will get docked by 1% or so.
The ALG does have numbers for the 350Z surprisingly. Those vary between 48-53%. Generally it seems that vehicles that appeal to a broader demographic have higher residuals (more potential buyers in the used marketplace). Or special cars with lower availability like an M3 or something (60%+).
Here is why I bought the car. 1. I saw the car in person, and my jaw dropped. 2. I drove the car and I was hooked (This is after driving the CL type S and BMW 330Ci).
At that point no other considerations were necessary. I even paid well over sticker, and still feel I got a bargain, because I got exactly what I wanted. Everything else is an afterthought, like why can't I get Brembo's on my automatic? Pretty trivial though, the car still stops just fine.
Regardless, I am now taking longer routes home and I realized that there are not enough windy roads in this country.
Or are you one of those earning so much you don't need a budget? Or care where your money goes?
Pass the tylenol.
JW
often heard at sporting events... "those who can't(play the game), coach".
i guess it's like that here. "those who can't(do the math), pay well above sticker.
one of the ongoing discussions on this thread concerned the relative costs of ownership between two specific vehicles. i made an effort to contribute my financial insight into the analysis and discussion. excuse me for not inferring "between the lines" of my post that i have more money and less brains than others. i'm not sure that bragging about paying "well above sticker" really has a place in here, expect maybe so everyone can get a good laugh.
dealers are already sitting on dozens of the these cars, 5spAT is not a big seller. check the inventories. dealers in my area are all have ten to twenty from which to choose. i've bought infiniti's in the past... prices are gonna drop. no doubt about it. maybe not on the 6 speeds, but the intial pent-up demand has already slowed for the AT's.
enjoyment is a relative thing....
ace
But this site is for the G35 coupe which is in an entirely different league than the Accord.
How's your allroad holding up, and why are you on this site talking about Accords when you are an Audi owner?
To oldprofessor: I absolutely agree. Pinheads unite! But, here's an additional thought: people who, things that. I think you (and possibly one other person in the 361,317 Edmunds participants) will understand what I just said. Six others will try.
Something for the knuckle-draggers to consider: If you speak and/or write like a moron, (some) people will think you're a moron. Get used to it. Odds are, you don't care, given previous postings. Take a deep breath. Learn to write.
Diversity: This car, more than any I can remember, seems to appeal to a "wide range" of the demographic. We've got boy-racers, BMW/Audi fans, reliability seekers, people who think FWD appliances are the equal of RWD vehicles with an actual suspension and all other manner of humanity, making useful contributions (once in awhile) and/or taking pot shots (most of the time, at least lately).
Ain't the Internet grand?
It is true that this topic seems to have brought out the most diverse group of posters I have seen since the "Mine is bigger than yours" comparison board and I have been posting on Edmunds since 1998.
PS: Bravo to the learn how to spell and write comment. It's hard to take someone seriously when they have the vocabulary, spelling and writing skills of a 5th grader!
Just to keep on topic, I am going for a test drive in a G35C this weekend. Unfortunately the closest dealer to me (Montclair Infiniti) has been posted on another board as having the huevos to try and put a $9,000.00 markup on a G35C just because they added a set of Mille Miglia 19” wheels (retail for about $2-300.00 ea. Total cost approx. $1,000.00). I'm sure it will prove to be a fun experience!
7 G35 coupes at the local dealer, 3 350z sitting at the local Nissan dealer.
Ppower
A student who I was helping as he struggled with a term paper:
"What tense should my pronouns be?"
After many years, I've come to think of it as job security.
JW
I really like the look of the car, inside and out. I know its not a very commonly held view, but the interior of the car looks just fine to me. The seat controls get some getting used to but i'm sure it won't be a long term irritant. The audio system is really quite outstanding and the steering wheel controls quite intuitive. The metal on plastic i think(hope) will wear well.
About the drive: I was considering a 350z and bmw 330 coupe. While the g35c isn't outrageously fast off the line, i was quite please with acceleration when in 3rd and 4th gears. It really winds out well. The steering is outstanding and the brakes are excellent as well.
The interior noise level is a little bit more than i would like but the tires on the 6mt may have something to do with that. It is quieter than the z, noisier than the 330 coupe. The exhaust note is really something, its got a very aggressive sound.
The only things i would have changed about the car are rather trivial but may become more irritating as time wears on. One is the lack of an armrest on the right side. I think this could have easily been accomodated. Second is the placement of the cupholders, too posterior.
In summary, I think its an outstanding car with exceptional value. If this holds up, reliability wise, like my 1995 q45, I will be thrilled. I have no hesitations recommending it but beware that it really is a 2+2 Z car(which is what I wanted)
Inifiniti resale values have always been weaker than BMW resale values. However, if you cut a good deal on a G35 and sell it early enough, you may indeed have a lower cost to own than a BMW 330 as you have a good head start.
.
why would an independent financing company set an artifically high residual???? that just gets them into trouble at vehicle disposition. there's no incentive for anyone other than the auto manufacturer's captive finance company to inflate (to any substantial degree) the residuals... it's not good business sense.
check out www.paymentshaver.com . they work exclusively with credit unions.
they give the 330ci and the g35 sedan the exact same residuals. i can only work with the numbers i have available. based on the data available to me, the g35c does have a lower cost of ownership, given the CLEARLY stated asumptions provided at the beginning of my analysis. again this was an attempt to provide clarity to an ongoing discussion among others in this forum.
ace
That being said I'm still getting one. I just know there cars that equal or better it in some instances. I mean no car is perfect but it take a big person to realize if they spend the extra $10,000 for the Gee some guy in modded WRX is gonna clean your clock. Completely.
About the test drive, all of the 6mt versions in ohio were presold. So the people who put the deposit down on them got to test them first. I suspect,as in my case, that anyone who tested the car bought it. Hence the lack of availablity of the 6mt for test drives at local dealers.
Another day behind the wheel confirms my satisfaction with my purchase.
About the height issue, i'm 6'0" and it is a fairly snug fit in terms of headroom. Not uncomfortable but if i were a few inches taller, I think it would be a problem.
Also, those drivers who drive both and don't feel a performance advantage in the better balanced, RWD car, you've found a great alternative and can save money and possibly get a more appealing interior. I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for coming to this conclusion. But, know that there are drivers who can tell the difference, and appreciate the better balanced, RWD package, so it's not all about the 0-60 numbers being close.
I also don't think it's fair to call all FWD cars "appliances" though the RWD cars typically have better weight distribution and handling balance. One of the great things about the current crop of Sport Entry Luxury Sedan/Coupe market is that the cars strive to have no obvious flaws. They're excellent compromise vehicles. Some are sportier, some more luxurious, some larger, some flashier looking, some more economical, some more reliable, etc. Drive them all, and it's tough to pick a loser, though everyone may pick a different winner.
SILVER DASH: I'm not as bothered as others, but I was curious so did a quick Google search on "dash kits" and the first site I opened had the offering listed below. It's not for the coupe, probably, but certainly indicates that by the time your coupe is showing wear you can add on all sorts of pretties, ranging from fuschia to carbon fiber and 3 kinds of silver finish (at one site). I've replaced dashes on three cars before this, though I haven't used this vendor so I can't testify to quality -- suggest you look around when you're ready and not let a hangnail prevent the marriage.
http://www.autodash.com/details.lasso?sn=6351&pn=G35
TAke care.
JW
Interior: Saw it yesterday and I think it's nice. Yes I like Audi's better, but with a wood/real metal dash kit that will arrive soon from 3rd party vendors, I don't see a problem with the interior. IMO
Now about the colors. The sedan has a very nice dark blue that I would like to see on the coupe. I hope they offer more variety in the future.
Reason #1: I want the 6-sp manual model.
Reason #2: I am going to wait until next summer to seriously look at purchasing a G35c. Hopefully demand will be down and supply will be up.
Reason #3: I like my cars like I like my women, relatively untouched. The thought of buying a show car, one the hundreds if not thousands of people have sat and played in, does not appeal to me.
Take care.
JW
My wife and I took a one-day trip this past weekend, and I thought that some on this would be interested in a report on it.
First of all, even though I didn't buy the car for the gas mileage, I'm always interested in it, and one of the reasons I got rid of an Audi A6 2.8 with quattro was that the mileage was pitiful, even on the highway. I was a little worried that the G35c would get terrible mileage from some things I read about the sedan. Anyway, with all highway driving of about 125 miles, the mileage was 25.8, which I think is quite good considering we had to wait about 5-10 minutes at one point for a car to make a left turn off a 2-lane highway.
For the total trip, roughly 300 miles, the mileage was something like 23.5. We even got caught in one traffic jam and had to sit with the car idling for the better part of 10-15 min, so I was well pleased.
My 32-year-old son wanted to drive it to a nearby town and back, and he had a blast with it. He wound up saying that when I was through with the car (I tend to not keep them long), this was one he definitely would be interested in getting; he's current driving my 1995 Acura Integra GSR that he bought when I got a '99 Passat GLX. At the end of our visit, my son did a most uncharacteristic thing: He got a camera and took several pictures of the car. I don't know that I've ever seen him take pictures before.
On our trip to the nearby town, my son drove, I sat in the other front seat, and my wife and his wife sat in the back seats. The only complaint about the back seats is that my wife has trouble getting out--getting in is okay. I don't think my daughter-in-law had any trouble exiting.
This morning an elderly lady who happened to be passing as I was getting out of the car to go into a grocery store told me the car was great looking, so I'm convinced its looks appeal to a wide spectrum of folks.
Handling, braking, acceleration, etc., on my 5-speed AT are fantastic, IMO.
Greg
I dont know WHERE those people are getting those numbers.
I have researched both. I think the problem here is comparing the same feature, etc. Sure I can get a 330i for around $35k (and thats the sedan- not even the coupe which is about 3k more), like the G35 but the HUGE difference is in what that money gets you.
A $35k 330i will get you pretty much a bare bones BMW. No sport seats, sports package, no premium package with sunroof, wood trim, etc. Its pretty bare.
On the other hand, $35k G35 will get you a fully loaded car. I wont go into everything since im sure everyone on here has researched it.
To get a comperable loaded 330i, w/o ED of course, it will cost me approx $40k, maybe $38k if im lucky somewhere- the 330i coupe even more.
We are still at least 4-7k difference away and that last 4-7k is a substantial amount for me.
So, I dont know where those BMW fans are getting those numbers from, but if I can get in a fully loaded BMW 330ic for around 35k NEW, please point me there, because Ill be all over it. Otherwise, Ill have to get into what I can afford and the G35 coupe is looking mighty good to me!
Tribal status is now reflected not in shield and spear size but in MSRP and grill logos!
First, the MSRP (2003) difference in the 330i sedan and 330ci coupe is $1,000, but the coupe already includes a few things that are optional in the sport package for the sedan. Add the sport package to both the coupe ($600) and sedan ($1,200) and the MSRP difference is $400. "The coupe is about $3k more". Sure, if $400 is about $3,000, you're right on.
Second, as is well documented in the Edmunds BMW boards, BMW dealers can and do discount the ED prices even further. A good benchmark is $1,500 over ED "invoice" price. The dealer makes his profit and does not give up a car out of US delivery allocation, so it's a win-win. You can find ED invoice prices at www.eurobuyers.com.
Using those handy references, your 2003 330ci base invoice price is $30,775, sport package is $545, premium package (moonroof, leather, wood trim, etc.) is $2,640, bi-xenons are $635 and destination and handling are $695. Add $1,500 dealer profit and you are at, bingo, $36,790. No, not $35k, but a hell of a lot closer than your research suggested.
One of my partners is about to pick up the above car, but with moonroof only instead of premium package, metallic paint and, thanks to being a good negotiator, $1,200 over ED invoice. His total price is exactly $35,235. He is budgeting $750 for his trip, since he is only going for 3 days and has Marriott honored guest awards. That puts him right at $35,985, including the cost of his trip.
My guess is that you really want a G35c. If so, get it. But don't cloud the facts with fiction. If you want to keep thinking that a 330ci is $4,000 to $7,000 over a $35k G35, then you should seek compensation from Infiniti's marketing department. I'm sure that's exactly what they would like you to believe.