Mike - Your understanding is correct. The way I like to think of it is that for a gallon of gas you get more gas, less additive, with the lower octane, and the gas is the only thing doing the work. The lower octane gas is more volatile so you get more "bang", but it is also more susceptible to "bang" at the wrong time.
The problem is defining the balance you describe. Conditions change, gas quality varies, including actual octane delivered, tune-ups lose their edge, etc. I just prefer to be 1 notch above absolute minimum so I can absorb any variability without putting my engine in a place I don't want it to be.
No 2 engines are exactly the same either because of production variation. Some come out more "octane sensitive" than others. This can be a good thing since this engine could be putting out slightly more power, when fed correctly, because of all things falling "jelly side up".
You seem to have found a system that works well for you and your vehicle. I have found through my experimentation that I seem to prefer some of the brand's additive package over other's, mostly from a performance and throttle response perspective.
Thanks for the info, I was just fuzzy on if I had my facts straight on the octane v. pre-detonation. If only i could pay 20 cents more a gallon to get lots of performance gains on the xt6....
Great posts, guys. Frank, I appreciate you sharing your experiences with synthetic - better info here than in the entire "Synthetic Oil" topic on Edmunds.
Whenever I take my road trips back to the midwest I always run accross alcohol blended gas. How does it effect the quality of gas? Should it be avoided?
bit - Gasahol is a mixed bag. The alcohol has higher octane so is a good way to get the overall octane higher, however, the volatility is different (vapor pressure). Modern computer controlled cars should adjust but it might take more than 1 tank. In the meantime it might be slightly confused trying to adapt. This probably wouldn't be too noticeable but it is happening anyway.
My choice would be to avoid it if it is only going to be 1 tank. That way the system doesn't have to "unlearn" what it just learned when you go back to normal. Gasahol raised hell with non-computer controlled cars when it first came out. There was a lot of "running-on" after the key was shut off.
I live in south east Wisconsin - all I see is ethanol blended gas. I don't think I've ever come across a pump without it. I think it's part of the reformulated fuel thing.
Frank: if you can find it for 8 cents more, that's quite different than my scenario. Premium costs about 24 cents more per gallon here. That's a 700% markup. Ouch.
But I don't think the timing on our boxers is adjustable, so given the conservative factory timing settings, regular should be more than fine.
My Miata's is adjustable. Factory setting is 10 DBTDC (degrees before top dead center). They recommend advancing the timing to 14 DBTDC, good for a little power boost. The catch is some engines ping (it varies, as you state), so they'd need to use premium or retard the timing. Some folks go as soon as 18 degrees, but then premium is mandatory.
Also, I don't think we have knock sensors to dial back the timing. PiperCub's turbo had an aftermarket knock sensor. His timing was retarded (big time) by one of the many little computers he installed, not sure which to be honest.
One small clarification-- lower octane gas doesn't contain more chemical energy than higher octane, it just ignites sooner. You did the right thing Paisan, experimenting with various octanes and if there's no difference between them using the lowest one.
If anyone really wants to learn a lot about gas, read this.
Juice-- that's right ignition timing is adjustable on the EJ series motor. Well, if you had a Select tool maybe. You can alter the cam timing, which would bring the ignition timing with it because the ignition is looking at the cam angle sensor. I wouldn't do that though.
We do have knock sensors. It's a piezoelectric microphone positioned near the #4 cylinder on the block. Sounds like PiperCub had a J&S Safeguard knock sensor, which is considerably more capable than stock because it is highly tunable. The J&S can retard timing for any ignition module it is connected to, whether it is driven by a factory computer, an aftermarket computer, or even a mechanical distributor. It's around $400-500.
I ahve a '94 Legacy Wagon with only 67,000 miles (my wife drives it and we baby it). It runs great except for two things:
1) The ride has started to sound noisy, so I looked into changing the struts. (I don't know what the maintenance interval is, but I am used to GM's and i know they suggest changing the in the 35K to 50K range.) I was horrified at the price the dealer wanted for the Air Assisted struts. My question is can I put the normal struts (good quality Gabriel ones) on and eliminate the air assistance. We have never used the HEIGHT button and don't plan on it. Or is the air assistance integral to the ride quality?
2) In the summertime, when the car is first started, the idle will first rise up to around 1500 rpm, but then drop down to around 500 rpm and shake the whole car. We usually just apply a little bit of gas (1200 rpm for about 10 seconds) and it eliminates the problem. Any idea what is causing this. Took it to a dealer, and he charged us $40 to blow compressed air up the tailpipe to remove a supposed obstruction in the exhaust system (his guess at the problem). Guess what, it didn't work.
Any help would be appreciated. r just point me to a previous message if this has been answered already.
I don't get out much so that is why I only speak for what works for me. Here is MA we have 87/89/92 octane choices, some stations have 93 instead of 92, and Sunoco has 87/89/93/94. They call the 89 "mid-grade" which is what I use, and that is what is ~ 8 cents more (today=$1.42, pump yourself). The 92 or 93 is about another 8 cents on top of that. 24 cents IS a big bite.
In my youth we used to change the springs/weights in the distributor to change the rate of advance, as well as cranking in a little more initial timing. Of course, we had to kick the octane up to stop any ping, but the overall results were very rewarding, and cost effective since mileage went up too.
Didn't know about the knock sensor. Yes, PiperCub has the J&S. Neat little gadget, but I don't think I'd have it exposed in the interior. He has a kid boy who thinks all the blinking lights (from the J&S and the SAFC) look cool, so...
Toby: just guesses, but spark plug wires, spark plugs, or fuel filter would be where I'd look first.
-juice
PS I have yet to adjust the timing on my Miata, but I most likely will.
Yep, I did mean "NOT". Just another one of those times my fingers were getting ahead of themselves.
Toby: big nod on Juice's suggestions, especially the fuel filter. This is easy, don't pay someone else to do it. Go buy a Haynes Legacy manual (~$15) and buy a fuel filter if it hasn't been replaced in a while. Then run a bottle of fuel injector cleaner and see what happens.
Until Darlene's back on line, another option for oil filters is NAPA Gold #1334. Changed mine yesterday, and, of course, I have another question. Oil capacity is listed as either 4.7 or 4.8 quarts... if I use 5 full quarts, will the additional .2 or .3 quarts (6.4 or 9.6 ounces) cause a problem? (No, I didn't, but curiosity remains I can always use it in the lawn mower!
in particular the Forester if that makes a difference. How expensive are parts for Subarus?Are they expensive to fix and/or maintain? For example are they cheaper to fix than Hondas/Volswagon but more expensive than the imports?
I know what you mean. When I first got my Forester I had to make a couple of trips to Green during rush hour. I was starting to wish I had bought the automatic. Glad that is not an everyday occurance for me!
Haa, in NYC I've sat on more than one occassion on a block, and watch the same traffic light change for 1 hr straight Green-Yellow-Red, Green-Yellow-Red, thank God for A/C and the radio, oh and ATs too!
With the exception of Colin, I think the majority of people don't really understand what constitutes a car engine and how they work... Here's a pretty good tutorial.
There is even a good animation of how a boxer engine works. So now when Colin says rocker valve, we'll know what he's talking about..
I have an 01 Forester L. The tilt steering wheel has always been very heavy and cumbersome to tilt when we get in and out of the car. We assumed all Foresters must be the same and eventually left it locked in one position. We no longer try raise it when we get out. When everyone was giving Patty suggestions for a new Forester, I was very surprised that a "usable tilt steering wheel" wasn't the first item on everyones list of goodies. It's absence from the list made me wonder whether it is just my car and that I need to take it to the dealer to fix.
On my XT6 I have a tilt to get out feature, which basically is a release that let's you tilt it all the way up, yet retain the std. position when it locks back down... They should bring that back.
I replaced the plugs, wires, and fuel ilter, but I haven't tried the fuel cleaner. I'll try that next.
Re: the air assisted shocks. Before I go changing them to standard, does anybody make aftermarket versions of the, or is there a website that discounts Subaru parts? I went to a few sites, such as Autoparts.com, but they only carried the standard shocks.
Hello. Any thoughts? This was posted on the Legacy/outback board. Thanks to juice for replying. I am trying to understand what happened and figure out which way to fix this problem
Hello. I have owned a 2000 Outback Limited Wagon, 5 speed AWD, since July of 2000. Generally have liked the car, but I have run into clutch trouble. I wonder what the community thinks: In Dec, when the car had 7500 miles, it began to smell like foul burnt rubber esp. after stop and go driving. Within 2 weeks, it started to slip on acceleration, and the clutch had burned out. The dealer replaced it. Shortly after (immediately), the smell was back, and has intermittently been there. Especially a problem if climbing a small snowbank, or reversing. I live in Minnesota, so there is plenty of snow. The clutch burning problem seems worse when weather is coldest. Talked with Subaru rep, who noted that the first clutch had a vendor's defect (concave fingers on the clutch plate), which caused it to always be engaged, and to burn out. Now, I am worried that the replacement clutch is also burning up. Postings on this site have noted problems with 5 speed standard transmissions, mostly on Forester, but some on Outbacks. Subaru rep says that the number of complaints to Subaru for clutch problems under warranty have been few (only 180/million cars, or about 6 per year on their database) BUT that clutch problems reported directly to dealers outside of warranty do not show up on his database. What do you think? Is there something defective in the clutch pedal or release mechanism? Is the clutch too small for the 2.5 L engine? Is it a problem peculiar to cold weather? Is the car a lemon? Should I repair clutch again, or arrange a buyback?. This is my second Subaru. Have not had consistent clutch problems with previous cars. This has been a big disappointment because I generally like this car. I have cautioned two people not to buy one.
Here is a question from last November that I don't think was ever answered. I have the same problem. My service guy thinks I'm nuts too (my wife already knows it). Any suggestions to a resolution? We both have 2001 Foresters.
#3 of 931 Questions???? by doctorzoom1 Nov 25, 2000 (01:23 am)
4) Clicking noise or cricket noise coming from front driverside seatbelt mechanism? My wife thinks i'm nuts but this is driving me crazy. I've located the noise I just don't know what to do about. Push, pull, apply pressure, Whack it nothing helps? Can or will the dealer fix this problem for me?
arrived in the mail today. Doesn't specify the exact nature of the problem, but states some 97 Legacy 2.5's may need alternator replacement... a 30 minute fix, if necessary. Pardon the pun, but I'll keep you posted.
So after reading "Drive It Forever" again this weekend I am confused about viscosity. Subarus come filled with 5W-30. The manual says 5W-30 preferred and shows 10W-30 and 10W-40 in the diagram and also lists everything from 10W-50 to 20W-50 for severe duty. "Drive It Forever" suggest manufacturers switched to the narrow range 5W-30 for better gas mileage at the potential risk of compromising long term durability.
I live in the nothern California. In the winter where I drive temps can range from the 20's to the 80s with long stints on the highway and into the mountains. On my fall road trips the temps can range from the 20s to 100+ and I can spend 8 hours on the road at a time.
Should I stick with 5W-30 or go to a 10W-40 or even 10W-50 for the road trips? What would I be giving up by switching from the 5W-30 besides perhaps gas mileage?
FWIW, here's my overall oil plan, and it seems to work here in Eastern Washington, where we definitely have 4 distinct seasons: My year-round drivers (mama's Mercury Villager, my OB) get 5W30. Since we only put about 600 miles/month on either one, both usually have to endure both heat & cold between changes. My warm-weather rigs (69 Dodge PowerWagon beater, Ford V-10 motorhome), get 10W40 just because they're both high-heat engines that don't have to flow oil in the cold weather. If Castrol or QS made a 5W40, I'd probably use it. 20W-anything is just too thick on startup for my tastes. FWIW.
Bit, to confuse you further my 99 2.5RS came with 10w30 and shows a little temp chart in the owner's manual. 10w30 is to be used whenever the ambient temp is over 40F. Below that 5w30 can be used if desired and is shown in the diagram. It does list the severe duty / special application alternative weights as well.
You don't need 10w40 IMO. Definitely avoid the 10w50.
Good Morning! The problem with the alternators relates to the brushes that are internal. They have been failing at high mileage. If you bring the car into the dealer, they will replace the alternator at no cost if it is one of the affected ones.
Even though you state your dealer thinks you're nuts????? were they able to hear the noise? This is a new one to me. I'd be very interested in what the dealer had to say.
Bit - I've been using 5W30 year 'round since I started changing my own oil. I assumed that it protected as well on the hot end as 10W30 but I've found out that's not the case. I'll be switching to 10W30 for summer since it gets into the 90's here in NJ. I also take trips to SC in the summer. What is "Drive it Forever"? A book or magazine article?
Paul - Castrol makes a 5W40 in Europe. IIRC, it's available at BMW dealers and is synthetic. It's probably pricey though.
is a newspaper column written by Bob Sikorsky - appears in various automotive sections of newspapers.
Patti: thanks for the detail on the alternator recall. The letter didn't give the details regarding the brushes. Just curious here: what constitutes "high mileage"?
Oil warning: If anybody has any APEX oil - take it back! Some inventories in the NW have had solvents & other chemicals found in them. Must be an off-brand - I've never heard of it.
Just got the recall on my '97 OB for the alternator, bringing it in next week. Service guy asked me if my ALT had a "90 amp" label on it...which it doesn't. Anyone had any alternator experiences??
ps. The Bosch +4 plugs seem to be working fine and my MPG is up about 2 per gal.
From what I have been hearing, they (the affected lot) have been going at 80+K. However, they could fail earlier for other reasons. A couple of comments, however -
This isn't a recall. It is a "Service Campaign" - so what's the difference? A Service Program or Campaign is when the problem does not relate to a safety component and it is not mandated/regulated by NHTSA.
These campaign's are on of the reasons I like working for Subaru. They spend the bucks, when it's the right thing to do. Service campaign's like these are very expensive, but it does re-affirm our commitment to customer's. Sorry for the rant/rave. I couldn't help myself.
I am in a really bad mood. My subaru dealer just charged me 22 dollars to make me a spare key for my OB. Also, the reason we went there is because the woodgrain near the shifter has a little crack in it. like a spiderweb crack as if the heat melted it somewhat. Wife gets there and the service guy said you have to make an appointment.
What does it take to look at it and see the damage. It pretty much pops on and off! I am really angry at the situation!
There is a 4.95 carting tax to make a spare key????? Any feedback on this??? I don't mind the money and 22 dollars isn't going to make me broke. But, I hate being taken advantage of. ANd I wonder if that is the case!
Bob Sikorsky also published a book by the same name. It is in something like the 15th printing... and there in lies my one gripe. It is sometimes difficult to tell wether what you are reading is current information or culled from earlier (older) versions of the book. But other than that a lot of interesting information on engine wear, oil, gas, break-in and such.
I've never had a spare car key made but have heard they're expensive. It's not like a $1.00 door lock key. Did you need a 2nd spare? Unless it has changed, Subaru's come with three keys. Main, spare and valet.
The dealers near me all require an appointment to do anything. They're usually very busy.
I just called my dealer parts dept. The guy said he does not even have a listing for the woodgrain piece around the shifter. I am really getting annoyed! And then he took my name and number and said he would order it.....What should I do folks? I get annoyed at these little things especially when my sales man said he would not just take 500 over invoice. No way he said. So I paid the premium to get good service and now even the service is ticking me off!
I can go to Honda Dealer and make a spare key for my Honda for 7-8 dollars. Subaru charged me 22 and that was with discount! Would have been 25. I wanted another main key for wife to use. I could have gone to home depot and gotten one for 2.50. I have a feeling that I will be looking for another dealership to do my service. These guys are really getting to me.
Comments
The problem is defining the balance you describe. Conditions change, gas quality varies, including actual octane delivered, tune-ups lose their edge, etc. I just prefer to be 1 notch above absolute minimum so I can absorb any variability without putting my engine in a place I don't want it to be.
No 2 engines are exactly the same either because of production variation. Some come out more "octane sensitive" than others. This can be a good thing since this engine could be putting out slightly more power, when fed correctly, because of all things falling "jelly side up".
You seem to have found a system that works well for you and your vehicle. I have found through my experimentation that I seem to prefer some of the brand's additive package over other's, mostly from a performance and throttle response perspective.
Regards,
Frank
-mike
-Tony
Frank
bit
My choice would be to avoid it if it is only going to be 1 tank. That way the system doesn't have to "unlearn" what it just learned when you go back to normal. Gasahol raised hell with non-computer controlled cars when it first came out. There was a lot of "running-on" after the key was shut off.
Regards,
Frank
-Brian
But I don't think the timing on our boxers is adjustable, so given the conservative factory timing settings, regular should be more than fine.
My Miata's is adjustable. Factory setting is 10 DBTDC (degrees before top dead center). They recommend advancing the timing to 14 DBTDC, good for a little power boost. The catch is some engines ping (it varies, as you state), so they'd need to use premium or retard the timing. Some folks go as soon as 18 degrees, but then premium is mandatory.
Also, I don't think we have knock sensors to dial back the timing. PiperCub's turbo had an aftermarket knock sensor. His timing was retarded (big time) by one of the many little computers he installed, not sure which to be honest.
-juice
If anyone really wants to learn a lot about gas, read this.
Juice-- that's right ignition timing is adjustable on the EJ series motor. Well, if you had a Select tool maybe. You can alter the cam timing, which would bring the ignition timing with it because the ignition is looking at the cam angle sensor. I wouldn't do that though.
We do have knock sensors. It's a piezoelectric microphone positioned near the #4 cylinder on the block. Sounds like PiperCub had a J&S Safeguard knock sensor, which is considerably more capable than stock because it is highly tunable. The J&S can retard timing for any ignition module it is connected to, whether it is driven by a factory computer, an aftermarket computer, or even a mechanical distributor. It's around $400-500.
-Colin
1) The ride has started to sound noisy, so I looked into changing the struts. (I don't know what the maintenance interval is, but I am used to GM's and i know they suggest changing the in the 35K to 50K range.) I was horrified at the price the dealer wanted for the Air Assisted struts. My question is can I put the normal struts (good quality Gabriel ones) on and eliminate the air assistance. We have never used the HEIGHT button and don't plan on it. Or is the air assistance integral to the ride quality?
2) In the summertime, when the car is first started, the idle will first rise up to around 1500 rpm, but then drop down to around 500 rpm and shake the whole car. We usually just apply a little bit of gas (1200 rpm for about 10 seconds) and it eliminates the problem. Any idea what is causing this. Took it to a dealer, and he charged us $40 to blow compressed air up the tailpipe to remove a supposed obstruction in the exhaust system (his guess at the problem). Guess what, it didn't work.
Any help would be appreciated. r just point me to a previous message if this has been answered already.
Thanks.
In my youth we used to change the springs/weights in the distributor to change the rate of advance, as well as cranking in a little more initial timing. Of course, we had to kick the octane up to stop any ping, but the overall results were very rewarding, and cost effective since mileage went up too.
Regards,
Frank
-mike
Didn't know about the knock sensor. Yes, PiperCub has the J&S. Neat little gadget, but I don't think I'd have it exposed in the interior. He has a kid boy who thinks all the blinking lights (from the J&S and the SAFC) look cool, so...
Toby: just guesses, but spark plug wires, spark plugs, or fuel filter would be where I'd look first.
-juice
PS I have yet to adjust the timing on my Miata, but I most likely will.
Toby: big nod on Juice's suggestions, especially the fuel filter. This is easy, don't pay someone else to do it. Go buy a Haynes Legacy manual (~$15) and buy a fuel filter if it hasn't been replaced in a while. Then run a bottle of fuel injector cleaner and see what happens.
-Colin
Cheers!
Paul
bit
Leo
Prices aren't bad if you stick with a wholesaler. Some dealers prices can be high, but I don't pay MSRP for anything.
Still, nothing like what a luxury make would charge.
-juice
juice - Briggs & Stratton now says you can use multi-grade synthetic in mowers.
Dennis
My plan is to "pull a Juice". That is, in about 5 years, find a "summer" car with a nice 5 or 6-speed.
-Tony
There you go - 2 cars means no compromises.
-juice
-mike
Forester replaces the Trooper, and Miata replaces the XT6.
-juice
Frank
-mike
Frank
-mike
With the exception of Colin, I think the majority of people don't really understand what constitutes a car engine and how they work... Here's a pretty good tutorial.
There is even a good animation of how a boxer engine works. So now when Colin says rocker valve, we'll know what he's talking about..
Thanks
Ray
-mike
Re: the air assisted shocks. Before I go changing them to standard, does anybody make aftermarket versions of the, or is there a website that discounts Subaru parts? I went to a few sites, such as Autoparts.com, but they only carried the standard shocks.
Hello. I have owned a 2000 Outback Limited Wagon, 5 speed AWD, since July of
2000. Generally have liked the car, but I have run into clutch trouble. I wonder what
the community thinks:
In Dec, when the car had 7500 miles, it began to smell like foul burnt rubber esp.
after stop and go driving. Within 2 weeks, it started to slip on acceleration, and the
clutch had burned out.
The dealer replaced it.
Shortly after (immediately), the smell was back, and has intermittently been there.
Especially a problem if climbing a small snowbank, or reversing. I live in
Minnesota, so there is plenty of snow. The clutch burning problem seems worse
when weather is coldest.
Talked with Subaru rep, who noted that the first clutch had a vendor's defect
(concave fingers on the clutch plate), which caused it to always be engaged, and
to burn out. Now, I am worried that the replacement clutch is also burning up.
Postings on this site have noted problems with 5 speed standard transmissions,
mostly on Forester, but some on Outbacks. Subaru rep says that the number of
complaints to Subaru for clutch problems under warranty have been few (only
180/million cars, or about 6 per year on their database) BUT that clutch problems
reported directly to dealers outside of warranty do not show up on his database.
What do you think? Is there something defective in the clutch pedal or release
mechanism? Is the clutch too small for the 2.5 L engine? Is it a problem peculiar
to cold weather? Is the car a lemon? Should I repair clutch again, or arrange a
buyback?. This is my second Subaru. Have not had consistent clutch problems
with previous cars.
This has been a big disappointment because I generally like this car. I have
cautioned two people not to buy one.
#3 of 931 Questions???? by doctorzoom1 Nov 25, 2000 (01:23 am)
4) Clicking noise or cricket noise coming from front driverside seatbelt mechanism? My wife thinks i'm nuts but this is driving me crazy. I've located the noise I just don't know what to do about. Push, pull, apply pressure, Whack it nothing helps? Can or will the dealer fix this problem for me?
Cheers!
Paul
I live in the nothern California. In the winter where I drive temps can range from the 20's to the 80s with long stints on the highway and into the mountains. On my fall road trips the temps can range from the 20s to 100+ and I can spend 8 hours on the road at a time.
Should I stick with 5W-30 or go to a 10W-40 or even 10W-50 for the road trips? What would I be giving up by switching from the 5W-30 besides perhaps gas mileage?
bit
Cheers!
Paul
You don't need 10w40 IMO. Definitely avoid the 10w50.
-Colin
Thanks,
Patti
Patti
Paul - Castrol makes a 5W40 in Europe. IIRC, it's available at BMW dealers and is synthetic. It's probably pricey though.
Dennis
Patti: thanks for the detail on the alternator recall. The letter didn't give the details regarding the brushes. Just curious here: what constitutes "high mileage"?
Oil warning: If anybody has any APEX oil - take it back! Some inventories in the NW have had solvents & other chemicals found in them. Must be an off-brand - I've never heard of it.
Happy Monday, and
Cheers!
Paul
ps. The Bosch +4 plugs seem to be working fine and my MPG is up about 2 per gal.
This isn't a recall. It is a "Service Campaign" - so what's the difference? A Service Program or Campaign is when the problem does not relate to a safety component and it is not mandated/regulated by NHTSA.
These campaign's are on of the reasons I like working for Subaru. They spend the bucks, when it's the right thing to do. Service campaign's like these are very expensive, but it does re-affirm our commitment to customer's. Sorry for the rant/rave. I couldn't help myself.
I am in a really bad mood. My subaru dealer just charged me 22 dollars to make me a spare key for my OB. Also, the reason we went there is because the woodgrain near the shifter has a little crack in it. like a spiderweb crack as if the heat melted it somewhat. Wife gets there and the service guy said you have to make an appointment.
What does it take to look at it and see the damage. It pretty much pops on and off! I am really angry at the situation!
There is a 4.95 carting tax to make a spare key????? Any feedback on this??? I don't mind the money and 22 dollars isn't going to make me broke. But, I hate being taken advantage of. ANd I wonder if that is the case!
bit
The dealers near me all require an appointment to do anything. They're usually very busy.
Dennis