Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

jfl

Isn't it the case that when ABS kicks in, a tire that is locked is released, allowing it to roll slightly thereby improving grip and handling? In slippery conditions tires are frequently locked so they're often being released. Isn't ABS less effective in slippery conditions?

It's the reverse of using cruise control in slippery conditions. (Which you shouldn't do.) The controller will continue to increase wheel speed trying to bring vehicle speed to the setpoint. When the tire finally grabs the car will take off.

Jim

ballistic

Isn't ABS less effective in slippery conditions?

Subjectively, it certainly seems that they lengthen slick-surface stopping distances. However, published studies I've seen are all over the map in their conclusions.

nygreg

simply allows you maximum stopping just prior to wheel lockup (skidding) and gives you the ability to steer which you will lose once the wheels lock up. Witness Mike's scenario.

Greg

bricknord

nygreg is right. The big misconception about ABS is that it will necessarily stop you in a shorter distance than a traditional system. This is not the main point of ABS. ABS allows you to stop in a more controlled manner, i.e. you can steer and slow down instead of skidding out of control. In order to control the direction of the vehicle, the steering wheels have to be able to rotate enough to have a positive steering effect. The limiting factor in stopping distance and steering is still the amount of ultimate traction or friction your tires can generate relative to the road surface. People tend to think that ABS is some miracle device that will stop you on a dime regardless of road conditions. It is not perfect but is better than nothing the vast majority of the time. There are a lot of other factors involved in a panic stop on a low-grip surface. What ABS will do, for 95% of folks on the road and in 95% of low-friction braking situations, is help the driver better control and manage the car in a crisis situation, and minimize, not eliminate, limitations of a tradition braking system. There are always exceptions, and yes, 1% of the driving public who are exceedingly well and professionally trained drivers can equal the performance of a good ABS system, but those folks are the exception. Of course, we all think we are the exception ( chuckle ) ;>)

ballistic

Nearly everyone here understands well the theory, principles, and application of ABS braking. The point is this: If particular implementations of ABS cause your stopping distances to be increased by (say) 15% compared to a good non-ABS system, then it is quite possible at least some accidents will be caused by them that would otherwise have been avoided. Maintaining steering control during an all-out stop is generally a good thing - however, there are some circumstances where your car is hemmed in between adjacent ones and steering around the obstacle is not even an option. In cases like those, any increase in stopping distances makes an accident more likely, not less. It is fairly well established that on some surfaces ABS brakes have longer stopping distances than even locked-up non-ABS systems.

sebberry

Maybe ABS should be looked at more like "Able to Brake and Steer".

Straight road, patches of ice and a red light:
Slowing down, you notice that the ABS system kicks in, gently tending to one of the front wheels. It senses the rapid deceleration of the wheel as it hits the ice and releases braking pressure on that wheel before the wheel locks up. If you pay enough atention to the system, you are able to bring the car to a stop without leaving your lane.

Straight road, red light, ice patches and no ABS: You apply the brakes, and all wheels that are on ice lock up. You respond by easing up on the brakes, but this does not apply enough braking force to the wheels with grip, so you apply a little more pressure on the pedal. The ice patches are not uniform, so one moment the front right wheel is on ice, the next moment both right wheels may be on ice. The car starts to yaw, the back end slides to the right and you are in a scramble to keep the car under control.

The beauty of ABS (4 channel, 4 sensor systems) is that it can tend to each wheel individually as they need it. You cannot with one pedal.

Let's say you are going down a hill. On a clear, dry day, you can definately notice the extra weight the brakes must handle. If on icy roads, even the slightest pressure on the brakes will cause the system to react to patches of ice. With no ABS, the chance of the nose of the car drifting to one side is very high, and the back end usually responds in the opposite direction, and you end up going down the hill sideways. With ABS, you are much better able to keep the car in a straight line.

ABS is not the miracle cure for people who want to drive in the snow or ice like it is the middle of summer, but it certainly goes a long way when you know how to use it.

cptplt

some insurers no longer give discounts for ABS equipped cars like they first did when ABS became more widespread as their claims rates were no better than non ABS equipped cars.

Speaking of ABS problems, I recently was able to conduct a rather unscientific test of the WRXs ABS "problem". There is this one place I can always get the WRX to show the problem (a bump in the road where you lose braking transiently). I have driven all 5 vehicles in the household over this bump recently in a few days under similar weather/road conditions and have found they all do this "thing" , only the WRX is clearly worse. In order of how scary it is to brake and not feel any braking power while going over a bump and hitting the brakes and setting off the ABS, it goes something like WRX > Windstar> Legacy > Venture > Winnebago!

fibber2

From the above posts, we have an excellent primer on how ABS works, its benefits to overall control, and that it can (on some low friction surfaces) increase stopping distances somewhat. So why do some do a better job than others? It is a complex combination of issues, some of which I listed below.

1) Not all ABS hardware is equal:
a) 4 channel has independent control of the rear, 3 ch lumps them together.
b) The sense/release repetition rate on some systems is too slow (some of the low cost GM systems were very bad).
c) I believe some systems are predictive - can sense not just locked wheels but differences & changes in the rate of rotation. Software algorithms must deal with this. IIRC, didn't Bosch issue updates on some software recently?

2) Brake balance of the vehicle:
a) Are the brakes properly matched to the vehicle static weight in the first place?
b) Properly matched to compensate for forward weight transfer during braking
c) Settings of mechanical pressure proportioning valves (GM had premature rear lockup recalls to address this). Some have pendulums (or springs attached to suspension members) to change proportioning during heavy braking - to compensate for weight x-fer.

3) Front/rear/AWD & manual vs. auto.:
a) Is engine & driveshaft power helping to keep the wheels moving, in addition to pavement traction?
b) Is engine braking contributing to wheel slowing?
c) Is a LSD or center diff forcing a wheel to turn, or allowing it to lock up?
d) Does depressing the clutch change the wheel rotation dynamics?

4) Suspension/wheels/tires:
a) Unsprung mass & shock dampening - How likely is a wheel to bounce when it hits a bump? That wheel is more likely to lock. How fast does the oscillation settle down? A suspension made for fast track times may perform badly on washboard roads
b) Tire choice - would it have good grip anyhow, given the surface conditions?
c) Has the owner changed parts (wheel/tire/rollbars/springs/shocks)

5) The acid test:
a) With the ABS disabled, would the vehicle react very differently under the same conditions? Could that condition be 'tuned out' without substantially affecting all of the other cases when ABS is a benefit?

6) The human factor:
a) Is the driver accidentally pumping the brakes, thereby upsetting the normal ABS function?
b) Too fast for the conditions anyhow, and no brake system could fix the problem?

I am sure that there are many other factors. It has got to be difficult for a mfgr to tune or compensate for every situation.

Steve

Karen_S

...let me point out that discussing the merits of ABS would best be served in Stop here! Let's talk about brakes.

Thanks!

ballistic

ABS is not the miracle cure for people who want to drive in the snow or ice like it is the middle of summer, but it certainly goes a long way when you know how to use it.

While I fully recognize the purpose and benefits of ABS, it remains my view (shared by many others who also know how to brake, with or without ABS) that many ABS systems impose a fairly stark tradeoff: Improved vehicle stability and steering control during all-out stops, in exchange for unavoidably longer stopping distances on at least some surfaces. In some circumstances, that tradeoff provides a net benefit. In a variety of others, it is a liability that can cause a collision where otherwise one might have been avoided.

paisan

The times that it is not an asset is when you are following too closely to begin with, IMHO. Obviously if you are up the guy in front of you's butt, you aren't going to be able to avoid hitting him by steering around him! This could apply to WRX brakes or subie brakes in general. (to keep it on topic)

-mike

andmoon

How about ABS that only engages when there is movement (lets say 15 degrees) of the steering wheel.
Once a car starts to spin (Volvo 740 turbo with one wheel drive and snow at 20 mph), it is sometimes better to just lock up and spin straight down the road rather than off to the sides.
Don

Karen_S

Stop here! Let's talk about brakes.

paisan

One of the "advanced" racing safety techniques you are taught is to do a controlled spin. You put both feet in (clutch and brake) and spin off but you release the brakes when you are facing the correct traffic direction and avoid hitting a wall and sometimes can get right back on track. I love doing this in my subaru, it's a problem I enjoy fixing

-mike

p0926

Karen- Do you sometimes feel like you're talking to yourself? :-)

K9Leader

Update on my coolant leak: Dealership agrees that the head gasket is the problem, and will be replacing under warranty. Thanks to preemptive contacts by Subaru Customer Service (Patti and Barb!) for helping the whole thing go smoothly.

Actually, sounds as though they are doing both gaskets, as the order was for two new gaskets. Hope to have it done on Wednesday or Thursday.

--K9Leader, 2000 OBW Ltd., 44K miles

hypov

cptplt Jan 20, 2004 7:54am

From my experience, the quick trigger of the ABS on the WRX is attributed by the tires it wears.
It's usually worst during braking when the rear meets and clears the bump. That's when all the weight is in the front.
I trust you'll detect a difference when you swap them for stickier/grippier tires.
Stiffer springs/struts would not alleviate it. I think bigger brakes might probably makes it worst.

-Dave

andmoon

Dave,
My wrx abs does so less often with 17's than the 16's but it still does it.
Don

hypov

Don-
that would be normal ;-)

After switching over to the SP5000s, still with stock wheels, I too get the ABS less often. Less often being in same frequency as I would experience with the OB and OBS.

-Dave

stevek

I have a 2001 Legacy GT with 74K miles on it. The clutch has never been a strong point in the car but now starting to chatter and slip more easily than before. I never had a clutch replaced in my vehicles usually they last me the life of the car. I also have an extended warranty from the dealer (not sure if it is a Subaru or third party). Two questions, can I get it partially or entirely replaced under warranty and is there a improved clutch package available, hate to put the same week parts back.

once_for_all

if it was me I would ask for (or pay for) a new timing belt while they are in there.

John

maryland2

I'd like to share my experience with my local (Timonium, MD) Subaru dealer, as a warning to other owners.

I took my (recently purchased, used) 2001 Forester to the dealer for service because the check engine light had come on. The problem was an oxygen sensor, which was replaced at a cost to me of nearly $230. I then read a few posts on this forum that indicated the problem might be covered under warranty. This led me to register my vehicle (by VIN) at MySubaru.com. A notice immediately popped up was that the front oxygen sensor needed replacing and would be done at no charge.

Angry, I went back to the dealer, who immediately refunded my money. I sent a letter to Subaru of America, and basically got a letter back with apologies, saying that the dealer was having problems with their VIN checking/reporting system that week.

I'm still angry. I've heard of service shops obtaining payment for warranted services by charging the (ignorant) customer and also the company. I don't know why the dealer made no mention of their VIN checking problem when I confronted them initially. I'm suspicious of the excuse, and irritated that Subaru of America would simply pass that on to me.

Don't just assume that the dealer will do the right thing! I trusted them, and would have lost a big chunk of change if I hadn't surfed the net that day. Needless to say, I won't be taking my car back there.

p0926

Maryland2- I don't blame you for being angry at the dealer and can understand your frustration with SOA but keep in mind, the dealer is an independent franchise holder and therefore SOA is limited in what they can do. I agree the dealer's excuse smells very fishy and you're certainly doing the right thing by never going back there.

-Frank P.

subaru_team

I am very sorry about what happened. I was able to locate your case and I see that the Customer Service Rep. did check the situation out. It wasn't a "form" letter that was sent to you. The dealer indicated that their normal process is to check for open recalls (it makes sense for them to do this as they get paid for these by Subaru). They either keyed in the wrong VIN when the looked it up or it was when they were having system problems. Our Rep. did confirm that the dealer was working through some system issues at the time you had the repair done. If this was a common error at the dealership, I would not have been able to locate your case file so easily as other's would have had the same concern.

I understand your frustration, but our efforts on your behalf were sincere and it appears to have been an honest error.

Thanks!

Patti

samiam_68

If you want the ABS to stop the car quicker, press the brake pedal HARDER! Most people do not apply any more pressure on the brake once ABS kicks in. Remember, one or two or three wheels still have more braking pressure they can take before they lock up. That's why EBD is starting to show up in more and more cars - it does exactly that - puts maximum braking pressure for you. ALSO - if you totally floor the brakes in an ABS equipped car, chances are all four wheels will lock up and you will lose control unless the car also has stability control. On gravel and dirt, this will make the car stop quicker. On ice, you will meet the curb or the telephone pole.
Cheers..:)

98redgrey

My "new" 1998 OBS w/ AT was "taught" by it's prior original owner. Does reseting the ECU (removing fuse or diconnecting negative terminal ?) return it to default factory settings that will allow it to relearn in its new environment and driver?

I am questioning this because the shifting is not as smooth or consistent as I would like it. Engine runs great. Also, in checking the ATF level (cold-not running) seems alarmingly high according to the manual. I will check it tomorrow after warming it up while idling. If it still reads high, what could the over-fill be doing to the tranny, shifting etc ?

Further investigation required....

Jon

cmuniz

Thanks for your explanation of what happened in Maryland. It sounds reasonable to me, however, would it not be a good policy for the dealership to offer a free oil change or xx% off next service for the inconvenience to the customer? It might make the difference between losing the customer (as is apparent in this case) and giving the dealership a second chance to demonstrate how good and honest they are. I know SOA doesn't have control of independent dealers, but this one could learn a lesson.

subaru_team

I know that sometimes dealers do that. We can always ask the dealer if they just forgot to offer the customer something and see where it goes! Thanks!

Patti

outback165

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm hoping my mom will have time to hit the tire store today.

On another note, for those with automatic transmissions, remote start is amazing! After moving up from Florida, this was the first thing my wife and I put in our cars. Last winter killed the "southern" battery in the wife's car, so we put in a Sears Die Hard Gold. AMAZING BATTERY! Starts right up (via remote start!) on the coldest mornings every single time, even after sitting for a week or so in single digit weather! The Outback has a tough time with the first starts this winter. The OE battery may be "getting old" with 67K on the clock.

-Pete.

K9Leader

John:
What is the Subaru recommended replacement point for the timing belt? I checked the maintenance info on MySubaru.com and couldn't find it. I assume it would be at 90k or 120k.

I hadn't really thought about it since the OB only has 44k miles and is a non-intereference engine. I am more proactive regarding timing belts on interference engines (such as the two Acura Integras I have owned).

However, I will call over to the dealer to see how much additional that would cost me.

--K9Leader

K9Leader

Okay, it looks as though the timing belt scheduled replacement is at 105K, so 44K is still really early for a part that is not giving any indication of a problem. Are water pump and timing belt included in 5 year/60k mile powertrain warranty? If so, then they are still covered for another year (the year will be up before I do another 16K miles).

Called the dealer - got the service desk voice mail, which never produces a call-back, so I may stop over there this afternoon.

--K9Leader

mtom99

99 Outback - 5sp manual

I've seen this problem posted several times and just wanted to know what fixes have been tried? Is it covered under warranty, if not how much $$$.

So, for the last couple days my Speedometer has been kicking out while I am driving. Sometimes it turns back on when I come to a stop, sometimes it does not. Sometimes it just springs back to life and all is fine. Turns out that the Odometer is intermittent as well - I guess that means more warranty for me I have had no "check engine" lights or any other problems. I have called 2 dealers and both said they can't identify or fix the problem unless there is a fault code. Previous postings have reported transmission problems as well, but I assumed that was for an automatic as there is probably an extra speed controller or sensor.

I'm a bit surprised by the lack of service support on this. I would have thought this to be a safety issue, or at least illegal.

rob_m

Had the exact same thing happen to my 99 Legacy GT at 30k. Happened every day. Random and Intermittent. At least 4 trips to the dealer before they saw it. They replaced the entire instrument cluster. Was fully covered under 3/36 warrantee. Good Luck!

damish003

Had this happen on my wifes 96 Neon. All would be fine, and it would just cut out for a day or two. Happened more during the heat. Found out the gauge cluster needed replacing, but the only way to know for sure was to pull the dash and all. Not under warranty, so it wasn't cheap, but problem got solved.

-Dan-

roadtripper

I've just realized that the rear windows on my Forester only open about 2/3 of the way down. Why is this happening and how can I correct it?

 

I looked in the manual but saw nothing about this. I tried clicking the window lock button on and off, but that did not help.

once_for_all

specifics on your engine's timing belt. It is either 60K or 105k, but either way I would have them replace it. The cost of the belt is minimal compared to the labor, and since they are removing it anyway it makes sense (to me) to put a new one on. Have them give you a price for a timing belt replacement as a normal scheduled item vs just a timing belt. The extra 44k miles you gain is likely to be worth the cost of the timing belt materials.

John

ateixeira

MD went from tailpipe sniffers with the car in neutral, to a treadmill, to an OBD2 reader.

-juice

ateixeira

Clutch is wear and tear, I don't think any warranty would cover one at 74k miles. Ironically a good clutch drop might make that chatter go away. It could still last a very long time, FWIW.

ECU Reset: sure, give yourself a clean slate. Mileage will be poor for the first tank, beyond that you have nothing to lose.

Timing belt is 105k, at least on my Forester. They call for an inspection at 90k, so I'll probably just replace it then since a lot of labor will be paid for.

-juice

rthompson10

Any answer to this question?- If a dozen people in the parking lot at work have a remote start- am I going to get messed up???
Any gotcha's with remote starts? one's to stay away from.

It's taking me about 5 minutes for the needle to move off of "C" and therefore start driving- am I missing something aside from a little inconvenience- I know if my wife were parking outside she'd go for it!
Robert

paisan

Welcome to the subaru family.

Lets see....

1) Subaru ATs are a bit less smooth than other ATs this allows them to last significantly longer due to less wear on the torque converter. Slipping of the torque converter yields smoother shifts but increases heat and therefore wear on it as a result.

2) Disconnecting the battery overnight will reset the ECU and TCU to learn your new driving habits.

3) Never check ATF when it's cold or not running. It will yield a higher mark due to the fact that no fluid has been pumped into the tranny. It's all sitting in the pan and creates a false hi-level. Warm it up drive 5-10 miles and then check while the car is running.

-mike

98redgrey

Whew, thanks Paisan. I checked it after I got to work (10 miles) and it was normal. The manual (p. 10-26) doesn't explicitly imply that the engine should be running, just "without time to warm up". Thanks for the clarification.
I should assume the dealer knows what they are doing. I'm just on the learning curve with the new vehicle. I will also reset my ECU/TCU and imprint my new baby on me.

Jon

Oil: Anyone else using Valvoline Durablend 5w-30 engine oil. It is what the dealer service dept is using.

kens

I just read about it over at Nabisco. Subaru has just posted a service campaign for the 99-02 Phase II engines and coolant leaks. They are recommending a special cooling additive be used as a preventative measure. It doesn't include Phase I engines or more recent Phase IIs.

Ken

p0926

Robert- You don't have to wait for the needle to move off the "C" (unless of course you want heat). 60 secs at idle should be more than enough to ensure everything is lubricated.

-Frank P.

zman3

I too have had issues checking the ATF with the car off. I had just had my transmission serviced and I about fell over when I checked the level the next AM. And I agree that the manual does a poor job of explaining that the engine should be running.

ateixeira

Robert: I'm sure they using revolving codes, like keyless entry systems. Certainly they have to have some secutiry built in.

You don't have to wait for a full warm up, just give it 30 seconds to get all the fluids flowing.

Nice catch, Ken, I'm sure we'll be hearing more about this in the coming days. My wife's car falls under that, so I'll check it out once we get info on it. Service Campaigns are like recalls, right? Does it apply to all of them?

-juice

kens

juice,

As far as I know, the campaign is for most, but not all Phase IIs. I think it mentioned 99-02 engines. Interestingly, they treat the coolant loss with a coolant additive. Also, Subaru will extend the coverage on the gaskets if the customer accepts the service. The only catch -- you must continue to use the special coolant for the life of the vehicle.

I'd paste the text here, but I wasn't sure if it was allowed by Town Hall rules.

Ken

ateixeira

I'm glad to hear they'll extend the coverage. That ought to put a lot of people at east. Did they say how long?

I'd gladly put the additive in, no problemo!

-juice

bat1161

I wonder if this would apply if you already had the head gaskets replaced under warranty?

Mark

kens

Only early Phase II 2.5 liter engines are affected by this campaign. Phase I 2.5 liter engines (some 1999 model year and prior years) are not affected. Countermeasures applied to the manufacturing process for those 2002 and later VINS not affected by this campaign have eliminated the need for this campaign to be performed on those vehicles.

In the future, it will be necessary to add Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner to the SUBARU vehicle cooling system whenever the engine coolant is replaced.

If the vehicle owner has this Service Program repair performed promptly, Subaru will extend coverage under the Subaru Limited Warranty on the vehicle for cylinder head gasket external coolant leaks to a period of 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first.

kens

I wonder what's in the coolant additive?

Ken