Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

miksmi · July 2001

Thanks for catching the double post, juice; I missed it (duh). Costco? Rats, Friday Loosh helped me load up on wine at the Pentagon City, VA Costo (can't sell it in MD due to our forward-thinking legislature). Do you recall if it was Pro-Gard or the "real" Techron?

..Mike

hammersley · July 2001

I'm beginning to think we need a sub-category here...

"Meet the Subaru Crew Members at Costco"

Cheers!
Paul

ateixeira · July 2001

Mike: I didn't realize there were two products, so I don't know. Next time I go I'll look out for it.

Paul: nah, we'll just update the demographic data to read "Affluent Costco members named Dave with two pets and a Mac".

-juice

jregen7243 · July 2001

Sibbald,

Thanks for the info on the engine noise. Now that I think about, the noise did start right after I installed a I&N Filter. I did check the filter housing to make sure it was closed correctly (tabs on top and screw on right), but I didn't take notice of the tabs on the bottom. I'll check it out tonight. I couldn't believe how filthy the original filter was about only 18000 miles. There were about 10 dead bees in there and parts of the filter were black.

-on

ateixeira · July 2001

On my '98 Forester I found it easier to remove the entire air box, assemble it with the new air filter in place, and then reinstall it. That way you ensure an air tight fit.

That should apply to the Phase I engines, maybe some other, I'm not sure.

-juice

mrdetailer · July 2001

I was worried about sludge in my Subaru a few years ago. I had an oil pan leak, and had the seals replaced. I change oil every 3,000 miles, and it was obvious that the prior owner had decently maintained it. The Mechanic said there was very little sludge in the bottom, and nothing crusted.

I see no reason to pull the oil pan just to clean out sludge unless you suspect a real problem. That's not a cheap repair.

I've used the engine flushes in the past, and after draining, I run another quart of cheap oil through. It only costs about a dollar, and will clean out most of the flush residue. Never had a problem.

After using syn in my Subaru for 9 months and definitely agree with bluesubie that it will clean out deposits and possibly some sludge. I put it in because my Subaru is driven hard, and his a hard working engine. My other 2 cars still use a dino blend.

locke2c · July 2001

drain oil and remove filter.

unbolt lower 2 engine mounts and jack up engine using jacking plate. jack engine upwards and the third engine mount will pull the top of the motor backwards, forcing the mount bolts to rest on the crossmember.

unbolt all bolts in oil pan and remove dipstick, using something to plug the tube. after unbolting pan use a rubber mallet to jar it loose and then remove pan. pull dipstick tube attachment free.

clean pan mounting surface with degreaser. clean pan with pressure washer, degreaser, etc. MAKE VERY SURE THAT BLOCK IS KEPT VERY CLEAN OF OIL OR THE PAN WILL LEAK. wipe it often. apply a generous amount of Yamabond or other quality semi-drying liquid gasket to pan. (do not use RTV silicone!) wipe block carefully just before remounting pan. install bolts and torque.

jack engine on jacking plate and tug hard towards the rear of the car on a large tranny bolt (there's several to pick from). engine will re-seat in crossmember; reinstall nuts.

install filter, pour oil.

should take about 60-90 minutes!
-Colin

locke2c · July 2001

Hey Dennis, I'm here.

I use Syntec which isn't golden like Mobil 1 or blue like AMSOil, but it isn't as dark as mineral oil afterwards. I use a 4,000-6,000 mile interval.

-Colin

bluedevils · July 2001

Hi Subie enthusiasts. I'm crossing over from the Isuzu forums to ask a Subaru question here... My brother wants to buy a Subaru Legacy wagon. Our family greatly respects Subarus-- parents have 95 LS sedan, 125k, no significant problems. I've like the Outback from day one. I'm doing the research on a particular car for my brother since he lives 2 hours away. What should I look out for, or what should I have a mechanic look for? Anybody have any recommended mechanics for Subarus or other Japanese makes in the Detroit area?

Local dealer has a 97 GT Wgn, 75k miles, cloth, CD, cass, moon, good but not great shape, asking $11,900 but came down to $10,500 even though I wasn't negotiating. This seems like a pretty decent price, but it really depends on how much work may be needed on this unit and how much maintenance has been done up to this point. The latter is hard to tell b/c original owner is from Illinois and I presume dealer in Detroit bought vehicle at auction.

Only problem I noticed is something the salesman pointed out to me first: something funny with the steering. Car seems to pull right - noticeable, but not a ton. Steering wheel seemed a little floaty/loose - I'm not sure how much 'play' is typical in these vehicles. I've driven my parents' 95 LS sedan several times, but not often enough for a good comparison. He thinks it's the tires (Mich Pilot 205-55-16), which are almost out of useful life, and said their service dept. would take a look at it once I showed enough interest in buying the car.

Sorry I didn't search the boards first, but I don't have time-- my brother needs to buy something this week. Any help is greatly appreciated. My brother is anxious to get a Subaru wagon. Looking around for him has made me want one too!

rleong · July 2001

I'm doing the 30k service on my 2000 Forester by myself. I did almost everything, except replacing the the coolant. Should I buy the Subaru brand coolant or can I save some money and buy the stuff at the auto parts store?

I do not have a service/shop manual for this car. Is there a drain bolt on the engine block? And does anyone have any advice about how I should change the coolant in my Forester?

thanks,
Ray

leo2633 · July 2001

juice,

You mentioned something about a study on oil filters. Any links to that? My Dad and I have an ongoing dispute (friendly, of course!) about this. He likes Fram, and I'm a Purolator guy. If you could point me towards the source you mentioned, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Len

leo2633 · July 2001

Dennis,

I'm also from that lovely corner of the earth known as Central New Jersey (Sayreville). Of course, to anyone north of Newark, we're "down the shore", but we who live here know better. Lots of Subes in this area.

Len

kens · July 2001

Try this link:

http://members.nbci.com/minimopar/oilfilterstudy.html

Ken

ateixeira · July 2001

Wow, Colin, and here I thought you could just unbolt the thing!

Jason: 97 is the perfect year. In 95, the Outback had a 2.2l engine, and in 96 the 2.5l engine required premium and made 155hp. So 97 and later (165hp on regular) are more desirable.

Ray: I just used Prestone with a 50/50 mix of water. I have a bunch of 30k service photos here:

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1400062&a=12183672&f=0

Photo #11 shows the drain for the coolant.

Len: print out those study results, because Purolators did well and Frams did poorly. I'd bet him a beer before you show him! ;-)

-juice

bluesubie · July 2001

Jason - If it's a 5-speed try to find out if there was ever a problem with low-rpm hesitation. It usually only occurs right after an oil change. You can read the TSB here:

http://www.geocities.com/hobiegary/tsb.htm

Maybe get the VIN and check carfax.com also.

Len - I see Sayreville pretty frequently. Usually from the Parkway on the way to the shore. :-)

Dennis

rsholland · July 2001

I grew up in Highland Park, right across the Raritan River from New Brunswick.

Went to college in Maryland, and never left.

Bob

bluedevils · July 2001

Do you guys think a professional inspection is necessary? I know these cars are pretty well-made and durable, and this one shows no signs of abuse.

ateixeira, you're right - 97 does seem to be the perfect year b/c of the better engine offering (regular unleaded and 10 more hp than in '96).

bluesubie, this one's an automatic. My brother will be in the L.A. area the next couple years, so he wanted no part of a manual. Too bad, b/c that's what he prefers and the dealer has a '97 Legacy Outback wagon 5-speed w/67k miles that looks as clean as the auto GT he's considering.

ateixeira · July 2001

Bob: you definitely have no accent. I never would have guessed you were from Jersey.

I know that Pep Boys does offerd inspection for about $100, and they'll even sell you a warranty if you're interested (so you would hope the inspection was thorough for their own sake).

-juice

leo2633 · July 2001

Ken,

Thanks for the oil filter link. Very interesting. I'll definitely be sharing this with Dad. ("see, Dad, I told you so...!")

Len

myfirstsube · July 2001

Hello everyone. Ive been reading posts for about a year and finally decided to register to the town hall. I would like to start to perform my
own tire rotation and would like to here from someone that has done it. I just need to know where I can find the proper jacking locations on my 2001 Forester. I have the 2001 S+ premium,
a 2-ton floor jack and a pair of jack stands. Is this all that I need to do rotate front to back?

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
Ed in PA - USA

ateixeira · July 2001

First of all, welcome, Ed.

Since the rotation pattern is front<->rear, with no changing side to side, you only need to jack up one side at a time.

I actually use a pressure treated 2"x4" piece of lumber, a few feet long, and put it under the car along the sides, from one jacking point to the other (jack points are shown in your owner's manual). This spread the weight evenly and protects the vehicle from any marks. I then jack it up at the middle, so both tires come up together.

Let me see if this helps show the jacking points:

_____
O^ ^O

Don't forget to loosen the lug nuts before you jack the car up. Rotate the tires, and then only hand tighten the lugs. Lower the car, then grab your torque wrench and torque the lugs to 70 ft-lbs. I think you'll need a 19mm or 20mm socket for them.

-juice

locke2c · July 2001

actually unless the tires are directional you will want to rotate rear --> front and front --> opposite rear. takes at least one jack two jackstands... I recommend getting the front end off the ground first and bracing two jackstands under the suspension mounting brackets (steel, control arms connect to it) or the engine crossmember. Next take your jack and bring up the rear on the rear differential cover-- yes it is perfectly safe. Viola!

-Colin

ateixeira · July 2001

I thought our manuals called for front to rear and vice-versa only. (?)

Anyone have their manual handy?

-juice

locke2c · July 2001

that would only be true if any of the trim levels covered by the manual came with directional tires. neither the H nor V rated versions of the Potenza RE92 are directional, dunno about the Geolanders or whatever comes on Foresters... doubt it though.

my manual is in the glovebox.

-Colin

ateixeira · July 2001

No, neither of the Forester's tires are directional. Nor are my replacement tires.

Now that I think about it, I believe the manual states that either way is OK. Guess I'll have to check it tonight.

-juice

FrankMc · July 2001

being front to back (no side to side), I always tell the service guys to make sure they do it that way. I don't have the manual in front of me though.

Frank

originalbitman · July 2001

Given the RE92 are nondirectional my 2001 Legacy manual (the handy PDF version) oddly enough still says front to rear.

bit

lark6 · July 2001

And a Forester to boot! myfirstsube: Maybe we can build up our own little demographic.

Crew, I haven't posted in a while out of embarrassment more than anything else. I installed the Hella Supertone horns on my Forester over the weekend and, true to form, I sheared off both of the yellow plastic clips that attach the grille to the body. Work has been a bear this week so, sheepishly, I dropped the car off at the dealer to remedy my hamhandedness. Two clips @ $1.48/ea and $18 of labor later, I'm back where I started.

I never have this problem when working on the Studebaker - all its trim attaches with good old metal screws or clips. I'll never understand why modern vehicle manufacturers use such brittle plastic in their attachment hardware.

Anyway, the actual horn installation went okay and they work well. The Supertones are louder than the stock horns, though not as loud as I'd like them to be. Their tone takes some getting used to; for want of a better word they sound Italianate, as though they should be mounted on an Alfa, Fiat or Ferrari.

Ed

ateixeira · July 2001

Well, the horn works and that is progress. The stock ones are so wimpy.

I think new cars are made to be easy to put together on the assembly line. They just push the grille in, and "snap". No screws or tools needed to install it.

-juice

leo2633 · July 2001

I was curious about rotation patterns also, since the Subaru manual calls for front to rear only on the same sides, and I felt that cross rotating would give better wear characteristics. I have an '01 S with the Yoko Geos, which are NOT unidirectional. I contacted Yokohama and posed this question to them, and they replied that it is OK to cross rotate the tires on an AWD vehicle, but they recommended that I use whatever pattern that Subaru had in their manual (no doubt for liability reasons, in light of the Ford/Firestone headlines). I did my first rotation at 5000 miles, and used the following pattern: fronts straight to the same-side rear, and rears crossed to the opposite-side fronts. I have used this pattern successfully for years (one set of Michelins lasted 100K with 5000 mile rotations and proper pressures). Besides, since I hated the look of the outline white letters on the Geos, I had them remounted with the blackwalls facing out the first week I got my Forester, so I had no real concerns about the rotation patterns. Hope this helps.

Len

ateixeira · July 2001

OK, so I'm not hallucinating.

With the F<->R rotation I got about 28k miles out of my Bridgestone Desert Duelers. That's about average from what I've heard, and the 180 tread wear rating seems to agree.

How was my wear? The four tires wore the same way - more at the outside edges, probably due to aggressive driving. But that never affected my alignment - it always tracked straight.

-juice

kens · July 2001

I believe Subaru lists the front->rear tire rotation on their manual because it is the most conservative (ie. works with any type of tire). When I went to an alignment shop last year, the mechanic pointed out something that made a lot of sense -- tire rotation patterns should be determined not just by your tire type but also the way they're wearing. For example, if your front passenger side tire is showing more wear on the edges, your next rotation pattern should take it to the rear driver's side.

Colin -- I keep hearing people say "always use jackstands". So, the single jack supporting the rear diffy is good enough?

Ken

tlima · July 2001

I believe all Subies are lug-centric, that is, the lugs center the wheel on the hub.

Therefore, remember to snug up the lugs very tightly before lowering the vehicle and then do remaining tightening to torque specs on the ground.

Len: Wow, 100k on Michelins (were they X-ones?). I thought I did good with 70k on Gatorbacks.

-Tony

bluesubie · July 2001

Well, I guess I'll chime in too.
I have 2 original OEM BF Goodrich with 55,000 miles. I've had about 4 rotations done at a tire/alignment shop and they've always done front to rear without me saying anything.
They're always thorough and when you get an alignment, they print out a chart showing your car's settings. When my wife had her's done, their specs were the same that is in the owner's manual.

Dennis

originalbitman · July 2001

Sorry - had to get OCD in here someplace as it has been left by the wayside lately.

Given what Ken said then wouldn't the best tire rotation be front to opposite rear with a remount so that what was the outside of the tire now the inside?

bit

armac13 · July 2001

I don't think that you want to do that many remounts - possible bead damage.

Ross

leo2633 · July 2001

Tony,

Actually they were XGT4's in size 175-70R13, that came as original equipment on my '92 Nissan Sentra. I still have one that I mounted on a steel wheel that I use a spare, to replace the donut it came with. They were getting a little slippery when starting out in the rain, though they never did slide. Still a decent amount of tread, and they never got to the wear indicators. I do mostly highway driving, and rotated and checked pressures religiously. They don't make the regular XGT4's any more, though I believe they still make them in the higher speed ratings.

Len

bat1161 · July 2001

I have noticed lately that shortly after starting out, whether I have the AC on or not, that I will hear a groan noise seeming to come from the vents. It only happens once or twice, and usually when traveling at highway speeds (60+). I have a 00 5spd OB. Has anyone else have this happen? Any suggestions on what to look for?
Thanks,
Mark

jon57 · July 2001

My check engine light has been coming on sporadically over the past 4000 miles. My 96 wagon with 84k miles usually runs flawlessly but "shakes" when the engine light first comes on. It does not last long. My mechanic has diagnosed an engine valve problem; the computer code is reading random misfire in the 4th valve. Have tried changing ignition wires and some oil additive, after which it ran without incident on a long trip. But just this week it is struggling on every incline and the engine light has been on constantly for a week. Initial estimate of repair $1000. Any advice?

evilizard · July 2001

How about some injector/valve cleaner?

locke2c · July 2001

ken-- actually no, it really isn't good enough.

It is very risky but since I'm not under the car I'm not gambling anything other than scarred rotors.

-Colin

rleong · July 2001

Juice,

Thanks for the reply. I have your 30k service photos saved on computer. It is really helpful for me and everyone else. I often read your messages and I still cannot believe the amount of knowledge you have about Subaru.

I'll probably drain & fill the radiator this weekend. Thanks again.

Ray

ateixeira · July 2001

Ray: thanks, but if you only knew the amount of stuff I don't know...

Like Mark's groan. Sound odd. Are the vents on? Does swapping from fresh air to recirc change anything?

jon: good start, but keep going with it - change the spark plugs, fuel filter, PVC valve, and air filter. Make sure ALL the hoses in the intake are in place. Many CELs are for emissions, and if there is not a perfect vacuum the lights will go on. You may also want to change the O2 sensor, which is often the cause.

-juice

hammersley · July 2001

I don't usually put enough mileage on the OB to justify a rotation more than the "summer tires off, snow tires on" job (and vice versa) every fall & spring. My snows are directional, and just to keep me from getting totally confused, I rotate everything the same way, front-to-rear/rear-to-front only... no lateral switching. Seems to work fine in terms of tire wear & handling.

My $.02 worth...
Cheers!
Paul

ateixeira · July 2001

Paul: if you keep them inside a garage, label them with chalk (RF, RR, LF, LR). I imagine you already have some way of keeping track.

-juice

hammersley · July 2001

oh, yeah... confusion-proof system, I have! Chalk 'em with not only which corner, but what YEAR they go on that corner! (RF 01 on the snows now, LR 02 on the summer skins when I pull them in November).

Cheers!
Paul

subearu · July 2001

FWIW, I'll probably just do the front to back (same side) when I rotate 'em next month on our OB. Interesting reading all of the opinions on rotating patterns.

-Brian

myfirstsube · July 2001

Thanks to all you respondents. What a discussion.

I have the stock aluminum wheels with *ignore* *ignore*
I like Juices suggestion the best, it seems easier and a little safer.

To ad (lark6) I am in Allentown. The Forester has about 18,000 miles now. The first rotation was done around 8,000 miles by the dealership.

I will attempt to check in here from time to time.

Thanks to All.

myfirstsube · July 2001

will take some getting used to.
Tires are Yoko Geos.

pattim3 · July 2001

My $.02 - front to back has never lead to any tire problems for our '90. With my demo's, I don't usually have them long enough (with the exception of this one) for a tire rotation.

The only directional tires we used were on the SVX. I found that customer's were confused by it and often they were not rotated properly at local tire shops.

Patti

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