By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
Sry, kinda poorly worded.
I've done oil analysis' on a WRX engine and an Outback (same engine that's in the current Impreza). Both reports were very good.
Check around on Edmunds for an Impreza forum and a WRX forum.
-Dennis
Well, I'm not sure what to think. Although the dealership initially said they would replace the head gaskets, they instead used some sort of Subaru-branded "coolant conditioner." The service manager swears that it's not just another stop leak (although it sure sounds like it).
The turning point from gasket replacement to the additive was when the service manager spoke to the district rep (or something like that), who touted this as the solution rather than gasket replacement. By the time I found out about it, it was already done. They did agree to extend the warranty on any gasket-related problems to 100K miles and that is clearly stated on the receipt.
On the one hand, I am dubious about a stop leak type product being used and I wish they had spoken to me before doing it. I am also skeptical whenever the preferred and pushed warranty repair is the cheapest and easiest one available.
On the other hand, I still have a year/16K miles left on the regular powertrain warranty and, with the extended warranty, 56K on the gaskets (probably only valid at this dealership but I'm not moving anytime soon), so if the problem resurfaces, I can probably get it resolved. Also, replacing the gaskets means major disassembly/reassembly work, with potential for . . . well, errors.
The leaking has stopped -- no coolant odor, no drips or puddles, no decrease of coolant level. So, if this stuff really works, and does no damage to other components (radiator?), then I'm okay with it as the fix.
But, you know, I just don't know. If I were given a survey and asked whether I was satisfied, I would have to say "I don't know" or give them a 5 on a 10 scale or whatever is right in the middle. I'm not dissatisfied or angry, I just don't know.
--K9Leader, Newark, Delaware
2000 OBW Ltd., 44K miles
Keep us posted on this.
John
On the other hand, I've seen sealants do as much harm as good over the years. I think I'd have to refrain from voting at all, at least for a while.
If the gasket repair (for lack of a better word) was done by a factory authorized Subaru dealer, I would think it would have to be honored by any Subaru dealer.
My only experience with a dealership using an additive like that (although they denied it at first) was that it ended up costing Ford an entire new engine in my 94 Sable.
I guess I don't really know what to think either. It sure sounds Mickey Mouse, however.
Please keep us posted on the longer term.
Larry
I really have conceptual problems with this as a fix.
But, if Subaru is willing to warrant the head gaskets and ancillary engine damage from a failed gasket out to 100k as a corporate policy I guess I'd be more willing not to complain about it.
I didn't post this over on Patti's board, but would like her viewpoint if she reads this.
Opinions please folks?
Thanks
Larry
On the other hand, if a newer car is still under warranty and the dealer desires to solve a coolant leak by using a stop-leak product, the only way I'd find that acceptable is if I received a written extended warranty covering future coolant leaks, and the warranty would have to be good at any dealer selling the make.
Larry,
Where is "Patti's board"?
Patti is trying to get permission to share more details.
DaveM
The '03 does get the viscous rear LSD.
-juice
If they are wrong, it's their problem, not yours. If it continues to leak you'll get both new gaskets and the long guarantee. If it does not leak, well then you don't have a problem, do you?
I'm actually slightly bummed because it essentially reduces the value of my Subaru Gold warranty, which would have covered it for 7/100. But even we will benefit from that extra year since I don't think we'll have 100k miles in 7 years on our '02 Legacy.
-juice
Is there a TSB yet on the coolant conditioner head gasket with extended warranty yet? Or will there be a letter first, then a TSB? Or no TSB at all?
I feel better if it is an official Subaru thing and agree with Juice.
--K9Leader
-juice
WWP-99 Service Campaign - Cooling System Conditioner
Subaru has determined that certain 1999 through 2002 model year 2.5L equipped Subaru vehicles may experience an external coolant leak from the cylinder head gaskets. This is the result of normal relative thermal expansion and contraction variations of engine parts. As a precautionary measure, SOA is recommending that a special conditioner be added to the engine cooling system to prevent leaks from occurring or to correct existing leaks.
Only early Phase II 2.5 liter engines are affected by this campaign. Phase I 2.5 liter engines (some 1999 model year and prior years) are not affected. Countermeasures applied to the manufacturing process for those 2002 and later VINS not affected by this campaign have eliminated the need for this campaign to be performed on those vehicles.
In the future, it will be necessary to add Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner to the SUBARU vehicle cooling system whenever the engine coolant is replaced. The updated recommended service procedure as well as intervals for coolant replacement will be added to all applicable service manuals. As a reminder, we will include an update page in the owner notification letters that should be added to the Owner’s Manual and Warranty and Maintenance Booklet. We ask you to keep in mind that replacement of fluids (including Subaru Cooling System Conditioner) during inspection and maintenance services are not covered under warranty.
If the vehicle owner has this Service Program repair performed promptly, Subaru will extend coverage under the Subaru Limited Warranty on the vehicle for cylinder head gasket external coolant leaks to a period of 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first. Warranty coverage begins on the date the vehicle was delivered to the first retail purchaser. If the vehicle was used as a demonstrator or company vehicle before being sold at retail, warranty coverage begins on the date the vehicle was first placed in such service. As a further condition for this extended warranty coverage to apply, the vehicle owner must have Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner added to the vehicle at any subsequent cooling system services at the interval specified in the Warranty and Maintenance Booklet under the heading “Schedule of Inspection and Maintenance Services”.
Dealers will automatically be sent an initial quantity of Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner. Dealer bulletins and affected VIN lists will be mailed to dealers in early February 2004. Owner notification letters are scheduled for mailing in stages
Does anyone know why they are excluding pre 99 models from this service campaign?
My understanding is that the Phase I experienced an internal leak -- coolant leaking into the cylinders (and, I suppose, oil into the coolant system). The Phase II is an external leak. A different problem and, surely, an internal leak would call for a more complicated fix.
The Phase II external leak sounds as though it is not a total failure of the gasket, but just of a surface coating on the gasket that allowed leakage after thousands of heat up/cool down cycles, manifested itself only in particularly cold ambient temps -- I noticed the coolant odor a couple of times last March right after I bought the car, but not over the summer, with it returning a couple of weeks ago with the very cold weather.
Not any consolation for you after having to pay for a head gasket job, but I think that is the reason. More veteran hands than I can probably correct any errors I have made or provide more detail.
--K9Leader
FWIW, mine must have been an "internal" leak like you described because I did have traces of hydrocarbons in my coolant. That's how they detected the leak, after starting to overheat several times.
Robert
Not sure about gasket issues with the Phase I. They've been covering them under warranty, by now most are 5+ years old, including mine. That's why I want to know if I should use the additive.
-juice
Greg
-juice
G
Type I - most often happening to phase I engines. Without warning, she suddenly overheats. Coolant is sprayed out of the overflow tank as 200psi combustion chamber gases enter the cooling system. The air bubble becomes live steam in the upper regions, reducing heat transfer, resulting in warped heads, etc. This is from an internal surface failure of the head gasket around the cylinder bore between the combustion chamber and the water jacket. A burn mark is visible when the gasket is removed, and visible scrubbing of the deck and head may be present around cyl 4. Bolt have been reported to be loose as well. It may or may not have ever shown signs of an external leak before suddenly failing. I doubt that a sealer additive could help in this case, and maybe why SoA is limiting this fix to phase II engines.
Type II - most often experienced by newer phase II owners. Coolant leak is slight and may be hard to detect. I suspect, like in my case, that it might have gone unnoticed or unreported for a long time had I not been given the 'heads up' and been actively looking for it. Even I waited for about 2 months to be sure I wasn't crying wolf about nothing. Gasket damage is on the outer surfaces - most often it is a completely external leak powered only by coolant system pressure (about 14psi). So in this case, a bonding particle sealer might extend life considerably. Still, I would feel better with a different gasket material, tighter bolts, etc., but I am willing to listen.....
OK - finally, a little bit of doubt and open questions.
Would a type II leak develop into a type I failure if left long enough? Are we just more aware of it now and catching it earlier?
Are owners of older, higher mileage engines with more overall surface grime less likely to notice the developing green/dirty patch on the back of cyl 4? Does the larger DOHC head and tigher fit in the previous generation Legacy and Impreza's make it harder to notice the patch, as it is all the way back against the firewall? Could it be detected and fixed before developing the internal leak?
Steve
Jon
I promise, more to come. I hate not being able to share more at this point, but I do love my job.
Sorry -
Patti
If it is a leaking head gasket, as has been discussed many times in the past, where would the leak be visible? IIRC, it is the #4 cylinder, closest to the driver, and there will be a trace of coolant visible from underneath. Is that correct? Patti, is the "conditioner" you mentioned designed for this type of leak, and if so, is it available at any Subaru parts counter? Thanks in advance for any assistance.
Len
Patti
Larry
-Frank P.
Do they sell a 2-in-1, shampoo plus conditioner?
-juice
Sounds like that may not be such a good idea anymore. Wonder if Subaru will be able to provide info on the advisability of this later?
Also, Patti made it sound like it may be advantageous to use this on all 2.5L engines - later Phase II's and maybe the XT's as part of the normal servicing???
As long as they bless it, I don't mind doing it.
Larry
Hi all -
I wanted to purchase a Prius and the local Toyota dealers are taking deposits but delivery dates are very indefinite. The wait could be as long as six months. Therefore, I am now looking at the Forester (I test drove one some time ago and it was great). However, I wanted to know if there are any real problems with the 2004 as I suffered a huge loss on a Ford Escape that was a lemon and I am very wary about another problem vehicle. I live in Miami and drive only in the city so snow, etc. do not factor in my decisions.
thank you.
I was wondering if anyone else had a similar experience with their OBS or any other Subbie models.
Twice now, my rear passenger seat has been flooded with close to 2+ gallons of water. There was literally a mini pool on foot of the seat. I needed a shop wet vac to suck all the water the first time. Second time, I manage to soak up 4 copies of the NY Times (dripping wet) just to get the excess water out.
Here are the circumstances regarding the incidences:
The windows were all closed.
The seats/doors were not wet.
Windows molding were tight.
Both incidences happened after a heavy rain storm.
No leaks found when tested with a hose.
The leak was not from AC vents/ducts. (The front part of the front passenger seat carpet was dry.)
I didn't go to a dealer yet because it's going to be tough to describe/fix a problem that is not reproducible. I'm going to take the car for service soon and will see if the dealer can find anything.
Anyone have any suggestions?
The car was not Zebarted or rust proofed.
From what I saw from under the car....everything seems to be in place. (then again, I don't really know what its "suppose" to look like) No moonroof. No windshield replacement. No minor accident either.
No leaks from the roof either b/c I check the carpet periodically now...after raining or a car wash...nothing damp or wet.
I have a suspicion that the water is coming from the bottom as well. I did drive through deep water during the heavy rain storms, but it was brief. The problem I have with the theory of the water coming form the bottom is that shouldn't what go "up" into the car come back "down" the same way? And even if it doesn't how did I manage to accumulate a pool of water. I didn't drive the car through a river.....
Thanks for the suggestions...I'll double check some of your guesses...
These problems that "cannot be duplicated" are such a pain - I think for the dealer's almost as much as the customers. But, we would just give up on it either. Let me know if it goes to a dealer? I'm sorry about the problem.
Patti
Has anyone else seen this? Just curious.
Thanks,
Ric.
Ric...this is the 1st time I've ever heard of a leak due to a roof rack...did you carry a heavy load at one time???
I've heard of moonroofs leaking but never a factory installed roofrack...but anytime you place holes in a roof you always get a chance of something like this happening. Hopefully Subaru will fix this right...like remove and reseal the entire rack or better yet give you a new machine...I would think that any leakage with water in the roof could find its way to other parts of the car and cause secondary damage.
Mike
Bob
Thanks!
Patti
As Bob said, they all do. However, the front-to-back 'rails' on 2nd-generation ('03-'04) Foresters is so well integrated into the roof that they don't stand out. If the owner removed the side-to-side crossbars (as many of us do, to reduce wind noise and drag), you might not have recognized what's left as a roof rack.
Mike
DaveM
On the other hand, the new Forester fore-and-aft rails are less useful than on earlier Foresters and most other SUVs. Because they are integrated into the roof and do not project above it, they provide no means to lash cargo down. So you get a little (cleaner look) and give a little (practicality).
Hmmm, to be on topic, my OB takes me and my Koho hockey stick with Jagr's name on it to the games.
Greg
Jim