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Here is a link to a more recent USMB thread. If you go all the way to the bottom of the thread there are links to five similar USMB discussions on similar topics.
http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12232
~Cath
John
Thank you for the clarification. It didn't even occur to me that it might be an issue since the link --although it was "dead"-- was included in an article referenced in a previous post. These forums are great and it wasn't my intention to lure anyone away but rather to simply give a fellow sufferer an alternate source of info that I found helpful in fixing my problem.
Hope I didn't step on any toes.
~Cath
My outback now has 64k miles on it and the slap is back . It is about 50%of the noise it was before the piston replacement. It still knocks at start up but goes away in about 10mins. To this day I don't add any oil between oil changes. I do now use dino castrol because it seems to quiet the noise. I send my oil to blackstone labs every other oil change and all limits are normal or below normal.I have learned to live with it .
Mike
Have you considered requesting the piston replacement again? Or don't you have any (extended) warranty left?
I have read here and elsewhere that the problem is actually relatively rare. Are you just having a run of bad luck or is there something about some engines that contributes to the problem (as opposed to the pistons themselves being the only cause of the problem)? In which case perhaps you should consider requesting the short engine block replacement.
When did they supposedly stop "swapping blocks". I had mine replaced back in the Spring of 2003.
~Cath
Probable bad luck . When I went to buy my outback ,there were 2 cars there that were the same . The one I first drove was the one I was going to buy . When I went to pick up the car and sign the papers the dealer stated that it was accidently sold. :surprise: So I purchesed the outback I have now with out even sitting in it .
I have been trying to no avail for the last year to have it corrected. My service manager states that SOA doesn't and will not correct piston slap anymore.He sts that it is a known characteristic of the engine and it cause's no ill affects.
They stated the same thing when I tried the 1st time . The only way I got the work done was that the knocking was there all the time . I do have a 7y 100k bumper to bumper warranty and they won't cover it under that either. I still have 36k miles and 2.5 years left on the warranty . So hopfully with in that time it will start knocking all the time and I will demand a full short block replacment .
Please help and reply
Steve
This happens about 1/3 of the times. Has anyone experienced the same problems?
Again, I really appreciate all your posts. Thank you for taking the time to tell your stories, state your opinions, and give me links to other places to gather information!
--'rocco
Obviously you're the only one that can decide when the problem becomes bad enough to put up a stink. However, at the risk of seeming like an instigator I would suggest you at least consider mentioning the problem to the service techs every time you bring the vehicle in (including routine oil changes). At a minimum they should dutifully note your inquiry on the service invoice. So, if/when you reach the point that you decide to make an issue of it you will have an established history.
Another option would be to try another dealer &/or go to the next level, which may be Subaru of America. Occasionally I'll read about someone that gets a "district rep" involved. Again, even if you don't get satisfaction now you're documenting the problem.
Just a thought, ~Cath
-Dave
Steve
--'rocco
I can't explain --because I don't understand it-- it but I can regurgitate an excerpt from one of the links I posted earlier. I'd be interested in whether you think the description makes sense. See "Item" #54 in the link below.
http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14099&page=6&highlight=pist- on+design+2+4
"...As Subaru has added longer strokes and overhead cams to their engines, they have become wider and wider, to the point where there is no more room left between the wheelwells. In order to make an engine that still fits in the car, they've had to minimize rod length and piston height. Short rods create more sideloading of the pistons, while the short pistons are more likely to rock in the cylinder bore, especially when combined with larger bore sizes. The upside is the short pistons reduce reciprocating mass, allowing higher RPM operation. The slap is a problem for cylinders 2 & 4 because sideloading occurs on the top side of the cylinder, so the pistons shift from the bottom side to the top side during the power stroke. Revising the piston can minimize the noise, but the pistons will always shift to some degree during the power stroke in cylinders 2 & 4."
~Cath
There are many instances of this in engine design, where they run well enough and long enough for most people but just aren't all they should be. The "perfectly designed" engine does happen, but it's rather rare.
If the net result of the design deficiency is just noise, well that's annoying but doesn't mean anything bad will happen necessarily. I do wonder though about the ultimate longevity of an engine with rocking pistons.
Probably for the length of time most Americans keep their cars, it isn't going to matter, but for the longtermers, it might.
Really hard to say unless you started bench testing them under load.
Matt
http://www.pistonslap.com/whatisit.htm
Probably more than you ever wanted to know :P but it might help owners get a handle on presenting their case to Subaru.
Host
I thought I had a puncture. Looked back through the rear view to see if I'd ran over something and saw a plume of greyish white smoke. everything was fine the rest of the way home, no CEL or lost of power. Exhaust sounds a little louder though. The throaty growl is more pronounce too.
-Dave
Certainly it matters to anyone planning on keeping their car for the long term. But it should also matter to anyone who may be trading it in anytime soon. Especially if they are trading in at a non-Subaru dealership. However, I imagine even a Subaru dealer would make some sort of deduction for the noise since --at a minimum-- it creates a perception of a problem for the average used car buyer.
I'd be really interested in hearing from anyone who got the SOA party line from their dealer's service dept on the piston slap issue (i.e.: that it's normal) but suspects it affected their trade-in value, perhaps at that same Subaru dealership.
~Cath
It's been a great year to have a subie in Colorado-I just smile on I70 when the sign says "winter driving conditions"
Brakes work by friction, which generates heat. If one side is considerably warmer than the other, something isn't right (bet you figured that part out already, or you would not be asking!!). So either the hot side is dragging all the time, and thus has constant friction, or the cooler side is underperforming, and thus not generating heat.
Drum brakes have a piston that spreads one pivot point of the shoes when you press the pedal. The other pivot point is held static, but is adjustable in spread. There is a star gear that is tied to an auto adjuster so that this spread can be increased as the shoe material wears. Most of them work when you brake in reverse. It might take a few times to move the adjuster far enough if it is way off. Or it could be porked, and require manual preset.
Sorry if I am not explaining this well, but try the autoadjust procedure (should be in your owners manual), then see if they heat closer to the same.
Steve
Steve
Anyone know a way to do this?
Samantha
Also, I have a Subaru rear diff protector installed-is it true that I can jack up the rear end underneath it? Where exactly do you put the jack? :confuse:
--'rocco
This time listening deliberately.
I think I might have an exhaust leak.
Same sound I heard previously, and an additional I did not hear the first time. A reed like sound screaming, followed by the faint scrunch and then the "putt" that's more like a burst of air being release through a tire aire valve, then the smoke.
Any way, I'll taking the car in for a looked at.
Beginning to notice the car being sluggish.
-Dave
Cheers!
Paul
OK, I drive a 1999 Outback and jeeze!!! I have been having problems with it for a while now and nobody knows what is up. Let me give specs: 126,000 miles on it and NO PROBLEMS at all until 4 months ago. It first started off with my speedometer randomly dieing out on me while I am driving down the street. I can go for days with it not working or I can go for 5 mins down the street and it not working. I take it my local subaru dealer and they have never heard of the problem. Well then a few days later I back my car up and I put it in drive I can't move. My transmission is completely dead. All it does is rev the engine and then 2 mins later allows me to go, but when it allows me to go it jumps in the air some almost reminds me of a manual trans car that is about to stall on you because you did not hit the clutch correctly. Has anybody had the same problem and if so how much is this going to cost?? I have spent some cash already on labor at the dealer which almost killed me cause they did not fix the problem.
The autoadjuster, IIRC, only serves to tighten one that is too loose, but cannot loosen one that is too tight. I'd go back to the dealer that did the work, and ask them to fix it.
I don't have a diffy protector, so cannot comment.
Steve
A stainless steel camping mirror and maglite were very useful to find the position of the adjusting lever and adjuster wheel. Why the 89100 Haynes manual has the diagrams upside down is beyond me.
Most importantly was getting the rear end off the ground to see if there was any contact. the left side (hotter) definitely had more contact than the right. However, the contact on both sides was intermitent (problem?). I did not remove the drum to inspect the pads-a future project.
The diff protect is a great jack point and after doing a search I realized this has been mentioned already-I apologize. It may have been stupid but instead of my jack stands I used a Honda tire jack (rated 2x my black sooby one) and put the sooby jack next to it for insurance. In putting the wheels back on (I'm about 140 lbs) I think I have a good feeling for 110 lbs of force-I guess that is why the lug wrench is 1' length. Should I seriously consider a torque wrench for the wheels as long as they feel the same? When I removed them off I could definitely feel differences in force needed. What is the risk of a few ft pds of under torque?
Other than that, with the wheels off I brushed dirt of everything and did a visual inspection even put a coat of black rustoleum on the outside of the drum-silly probably but looks better. Thanks all. flat fours foevr. Jon
Mike K
EDIT: remembered after posting that if you have drums, you probably also have steel wheels. I don't know if the torque spec is the same. There should be some data in the Specifications section in the back of the owners manual.
Steve
I am also replacing my fuel filter, well after I buy the 2 small pieces of fuel line involved. I've decided to just cut the filter out of there put new ones on instead of trying to pry them off and probably damaging them. A $30 filter deserves new supply lines anyway MY.02. Jon
You're welcome. It sounds like the explanation made sense to you. If anyone could paraphrase (oversimplify) it in English that would be great.
~Cath
Good luck making your case at a later point. Are you torn between hoping it doesn't get worse and hoping that it gets a lot worse?
~Cath
I'd be gentle on the car and get it in to the dealer ASAP. White smoke is coolant burning. Generally that arrives via the headgasket but since you have those weird noises occuring, perhaps it is something else.
Either way I sure hope you're still under the factory powertrain warranty...
~Colin
Does the sound of water slurping around mean anything?
I'm hearing it as if I have water inside my dashboard when I bring the RPMs to about 2k RPMs.
Checked my coolant about an hour ago. Does look pretty low.
Powertrain warranty... I think the '03 is still eligible.
Thanks for the input
-Dave
I cannot win with mine. The coolant is determined it will leak in one way or another. I thought my lower radiator hose was leaking at the radiator end a few weeks ago so I just decided to replace the hose and clamps rather than monkeying around trying to diagnose the problem (which I thought I had narrowed to a bum clamp or a bum hose). But, it continues to leak, so I must have a crack in the radiator VERY close to the lower hose port. Hopefully it is repairable vs. having to buy a new unit. Argh. This one will have to wait until spring, so I hope no dogs come around with sweet teeth!
For years, I would prolong the life of weak radiators by simply running the cooling system at atmospheric pressure. While not the best method, it is a way of delaying a repair until the weather breaks.
The main reason we put on a 15 lb pressure cap is to artifically raise the boiling point of the coolant by 30'F. Basics: Water at 1 atm = 212'F. 50/50 mix of water and ethylene glycol = about 230'F. 50/50 mix at 15 psi (approximately 2 atm) = about 260'F.
If the engine loads are light, the ambient temps low, the thermostat working properly, and the rest of the total system healthy, the coolant should never rise much over the low 200's. Now all bets are off if you have a HG issue!
So during 3 seasons when the outside temps were below 70'F, & the A/C was off, I would remove the pressure component. You simply stretch and remove the lower rubber seal, allowing coolant to flow into the overflow tank. You might have to drop the overflow tank level a bit to make room, but it will flow in and get sucked back out just fine. With no elevated temp, you are less likely to get forced leaks from weak radiator seals or cracks.
Steve
Bob
I'm actually looking forward to how many miles I can put on the car .
Mike
From a stress on materials standpoint, I would think that if you start an engine and drive a few hundred miles at a time, a lot of it at steady speed, your wear rate would be "X" per mile driven.
If you ran like a taxi cab or delivery service - lots of idling, frequent engine shutdowns and restarts, fast transitions from low to high RPM, etc., your wear rate might be "2X" per mile driven.
This kind of stuff should probably be based on an engine hours counter or RPM counter, not mileage. I think you can see that there could be a wide disparity between miles driven and engine use.
Plus there is time based materials damage - ozone breakdown of the rubber and binders, plasticizer depletion, etc.
I have run my belts longer based on this theory when my wife was doing the long distance commute, but realize that you are taking a risk.
Steve