I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

sda

ab348 said:

For '82 the only engines available in the GP were a pair of V6s and the diesel V8. But for '83 GM finally wised up and began offering the 305 again.

Wow, that seems odd, no gas V8. I did drive a very basic 81 Cutlass Supreme rental when dad’s Eldorado was having the head gaskets replaced on his 79 diesel. I was surprised how well the 3.8 V6 performed, it seemed fairly brisk.

uplanderguy

My parents traded their '80 V6 Monte for a new '84 with 305 4-barrel (introduced in the 49 states for '83 on the Monte). After a V6, and my 267, it felt like an absolute hot rod....really. Personally, I liked the flat-finish dark fake wood and gold outline on the dash starting in '83 a lot better than what was on my '81--shiny plood that looked like paint that needed stirring, LOL.

Didn't Pontiac make a 265 V8 somewhere in that general time period?

uplanderguy

I lived in an apartment complex with a coworker, two years older than me, who bought a new '81 Scirocco S. I hated it as I could barely climb into the back seat to ride to work with him and the third coworker who lived in the same place. It was gray with black seats with bright red or orange inserts. He detested my Monte Carlo. IIRC, both were priced within $100 of each other, sticker-wise. He thought mine was an old man's car, and I couldn't stand how the dash in his car waved at you whenever he let the clutch out. I kidded him that at that price you'd think you'd have gotten two windshield wipers, LOL.

uplanderguy

I never drove one, but I thought it was interesting that they began offering the new 4.3L FI V6 in the '85 Monte Carlo. Somehow, the others ended up soldiering on with the old 3.8. Chevy used the 4.3 in Caprice/Impala cars and also Astro vans and pickups (I think). Maybe not enough to go around.

ab348

Back in the late '90s when I was running the original Olds mail list, we had a lot of members with early '80s G-body Cutlasses. The 3.8 engines were a curse it seemed. Many of them suffered from low oil pressure and the resultant wear on pushrods/lifters/valve stem tips, or spun bearings and knocking. Apparently the design of the oil pump made it a virtual certainty that it would suffer pressure drops over time. The 307s, while not powerhouses, just ran forever.

andre1969

I think the Buick Regal got similarly screwed for '82, only offering the 231 and 252, although at least in coupes, you could get the turbo 231.

Buick and Pontiac also got screwed over in the 4-door/wagon models. At least you could still get a 305 in an '82 Malibu wagon, and a 307 in a Cutlass Cruiser, but I'm pretty sure the Bonneville-G and Regal wagons only had the 231, 252, and Diesels. The Bonneville-G got the 305 as an option for '83, but I don't think the Regal started offering the 307 until something like 1985, and by then only the personal luxury coupe was left.

imidazol97

What was the reason for the small engine offerings in Pontiac/Buick? Was this an era of GM's separation of production plants to the divisions? I can't remember just how that restructuring went...
I think I recall that assembly plants became a group to themselves rather than being related to each car division...

And from that was the supply of certain engines limited therefore the lack of offering certain desirable sizes in some models came about because of shortage of production for those engines?

andre1969

Pontiac discontinued their 265 and 301 V8s sometime during the 1981 model year, and Buick was heavily reliant on those engines. So when the Pontiac V8 was finally discontinued, it left a gap in the engine lineup for those cars that depended on it.

By 1981, GM was getting the ~5 liter range of engines out of most of their midsized cars, anyway. For instance, the biggest offering in the Malibu/Monte Carlo was a 267, in a LeMans/Grand Prix it was a 265, 260 for the Cutlass, and 265 for the Century/Regal. Even in '81 though, it seemed like the Buicks were getting screwed a bit. In wagons, you could get a 305 in the Malibu, 307 in the Cutlass Cruiser, and a 301 in the LeMans Safari, but only a 265 in the Century Estate.

So for '82, with the Pontiac V8s gone, they probably figured they could get by with whatever demand was needed for a bigger engine, by just using the Buick 252 V6 for the Pontiacs and Buicks.

andre1969

ab348 said:

Back in the late '90s when I was running the original Olds mail list, we had a lot of members with early '80s G-body Cutlasses. The 3.8 engines were a curse it seemed. Many of them suffered from low oil pressure and the resultant wear on pushrods/lifters/valve stem tips, or spun bearings and knocking. Apparently the design of the oil pump made it a virtual certainty that it would suffer pressure drops over time. The 307s, while not powerhouses, just ran forever.

From what I've heard, the '75-84 231 had a lot of narrow, right-angle oil passages that were easily clogged. Then there was that nylon/mesh timing gear thingie, or whatever it was. I've heard that was troublesome. However, didn't a lot of engines use that, at the time? I think they also shaved too much weight off of the block, to make the engine as lightweight as possible, but that made it fragile. The technology just wasn't there yet, to make an engine that thin and lightweight, yet durable.

The turbo block was beefed up, so it was more durable. In 1985, all 231s started using the turbo block, and that's the point that the engine began its transformation to one of GM's worst engines, to one of its best.

I think the 252 version was even more fragile, because it was bored out even further, compared to the 231.

sda

It seems GM made more fragile engines than I remember during the late 70s early 80s : Olds 260/350 diesel, 231/252 V6, 301 V8 (and turbo). I am not familiar enough with the Chevy 229 V6, 267 V8 or Pontiac 265 V8. Let’s not forget the Cadillac V8-6-4 or 4100. I understand the Buick 231 turbo was no joy either. No wonder the rush to Japanese cars.

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

Didn't Pontiac make a 265 V8 somewhere in that general time period?

Yeah, Pontiac came out with the 265, a smaller version of the 301, for 1980. However, both were discontinued sometime during the 1981 model year. I just checked the 1981 brochure, and it has the following disclaimer: "NOTE: Pontiac-built V-8 engines are available at start of production until approximately January 1, 1981. Check with your Pontiac dealer for current engine availability on all Pontiac models"

That didn't hurt the big cars too much. They were using a Buick 231, Pontiac 265, and Olds 307, so the 265 was no great loss. It probably hurt midsized cars more. The Grand Prix, for instance, only had the Buick 231 or the Pontiac 265 (and the Olds 350 Diesel, of course). The LeMans was just 231 or 265 (No Diesel in '81, at least according to the brochure). The LeMans Safari wagon was 231, 265, or 301.

I'd imagine the Trans Am really got hurt, as it used the 231, 265, 301, 301 Turbo, and the 305. Losing the turbo probably really hurt their street cred, as that left them with just a toned down 305 that (I think) only put out 145 hp. Meanwhile, the Camaro offered a hotter 165 hp 305, plus a 175 hp 350 (according to Consumer Guide, which is not always 100% correct )

While the 301 was a troublesome engine like the early 231 (much of that from having too much weight shaved off, and some bearing or journal or something like that being too thin, I think), I've heard the 265 version was better...mainly because it didn't have enough power to hurt itself!

I've seen an old test of an '81 Grand Prix with the 265. I think it had 120 hp, and 200 ft-lb, and 0-60 was about 14.9 seconds.

The cruel irony was that for 1981, Pontiac finally cleaned up the 265 and 301 so that it would pass California emissions standards, only to discontinue it. Also, I don't know if this is an urban legend, but I've heard that the 301-4bbl, while rated around 145-150 hp, actually put out closer to 170 hp. Those early CCC (Computer Command Control) electronics left a lot to be desired, for the most part, but supposedly the Pontiac 301 was well-suited to it. But, by that time this particular 301-4bbl was down to just the California LeMans Safari, and the Firebird/Trans Am.

Years ago, I saw a guy at Carlisle who had an '81 LeMans sedan, with a V6. He said it was the Buick 252, and not the 231. So I wonder if Pontiac actually started putting 252s in these cars, after they ran out of 265 V8s, but that little detail never made it into the sales brochure, or the EPA's spreadsheet? It's also possible that he didn't really know what engine it was, but thought it was a 252.

andre1969

sda said:

It seems GM made more fragile engines than I remember during the late 70s early 80s : Olds 260/350 diesel, 231/252 V6, 301 V8 (and turbo). I am not familiar enough with the Chevy 229 V6, 267 V8 or Pontiac 265 V8. Let’s not forget the Cadillac V8-6-4 or 4100. I understand the Buick 231 turbo was no joy either. No wonder the rush to Japanese cars.

My first car was a 1980 Malibu with the Chevy 229 V6. I have a feeling I'd gripe about it if I had to drive it today, the moment I had to floor it for any reason, but it didn't seem bad, at the time. I never had any engine trouble either. It had 115 hp that first year, but for some reason torque was a bit low, something like 175 ft-lb I believe. It dropped to 110 hp from 1981-84, although at some point, I think they did something to it to get the torque up to around 190 ft-lb, which is what the Buick 231 had.

I think the 229 was fairly durable, because it was essentially just a 305 with two cylinders lopped off. But it wasn't lightened, or skimped on in other ways, like the Buick 231 and Pontiac 301 were. I also had an '82 Cutlass Supreme with the 231, and it definitely felt like it had more kick than the Malibu. Now by today's standards, watching paint dry would be more exciting than a drag race between those two, but at the time, I could tell a difference. The 231 seemed to have better performance when you stomped on it and it had to do the 3-2 downshift, and also seemed better at higher speeds. Of course, that was relative as the speedometers only went up to 85, but the Cutlass seemed like it was a bit happier at those higher speeds.

Still, I'd take a durable, weaker engine, over one with a bit better performance that's almost guaranteed to self-destruct.

I've always wanted to try a Monte Carlo, or even an Impala/Caprice with the 262 (4.3) V6. That engine might have still been a bit over-matched in a full-sized car, compared to a 305 or 307, but I imagine it would've been a good blend of performance and economy in something like a Monte Carlo. It only had 130 hp in 1985, but was bumped up slightly to 140 in '86. This was the TBI version used in cars. The truck version had a 4-bbl carb, that first year at least, and 147 hp.

ab348

imidazol97 said:

What was the reason for the small engine offerings in Pontiac/Buick? Was this an era of GM's separation of production plants to the divisions? I can't remember just how that restructuring went...
I think I recall that assembly plants became a group to themselves rather than being related to each car division...

And from that was the supply of certain engines limited therefore the lack of offering certain desirable sizes in some models came about because of shortage of production for those engines?

I don't think it was a production problem, at least not totally. GM was a real mess in those years though, with incredible pressure to rationalize, reduce divisional overlap, and to cut costs. So while there probably was a decree coming down from the 14th floor for Pontiac to get out of the engine-building business, I think they were also under a lot of pressure to meet CAFE requirements, so for a few years almost all their cars were underpowered and had overly small engines. CAFE mandates increased quickly from 1978 onward, going from 18 mpg in '78 to 27 mpg in 1984. It really wasn't until GM began selling lots of smaller cars that they were able to relax the restrictions on their bigger vehicles that would have had V8s in the past.

uplanderguy

I had my 267 for 35K miles. I had no issues with it, besides a clogged catalytic converter which slowed acceleration down and was replaced under warranty not long before the car was stolen.

It was smooth and silky like a V8 should be, but was slow. Still, better than the industrial-sounding V6 offered.

andre1969

Wider availability of those 4-speed overdrive automatics helped get bigger engines back in the cars, too. GM didn't bother to start putting them into the midsized cars until 1984, I believe.

One interesting tidbit, that Outlanderguy mentioned awhile back, was that in 1984, the 229 V6 was offered with a 3- or 4-speed automatic in the Monte Carlo. I had not been aware of that; I just remembered that the 4-speed overdrive was never offered with the 110 hp 231-2bbl V6 in the RWD cars, only the 3-speed. So, it was a bit curious that it was offered with the 229 Monte Carlo.

But, I just looked up the EPA ratings, and I think I see why.
The Monte was rated at 20/28 with the 229/3-speed automatic, and 20/31 with the 229/4-speed auto. Meanwhile, the 231, in something like a Regal, Grand Prix, Cutlass, or Bonneville-G, was rated at 21/31. So I guess it was efficient enough, as is, so they figured a 4-speed wouldn't improve it much?

The 231 was a bit more efficient in big cars, too. In an '84 Parisienne, Delta 88, or LeSabre it was rated 19/28. The 229 in an Impala or Caprice was rated at 19/26.

Also, the 4-speed automatics tended to boost highway economy, but often had little or no effect on the city cycle. The average mpg is what was used for CAFE purposes, and the calculation they used for it was weighted, so the city number had a greater effect on it than the highway. It's basically the same principle of, if a car gets 10 mpg half the time and 20 mpg the other half, its average mpg isn't 15 mpg, but something like 13.33.

**Note: those were the raw laboratory numbers. For 1985 they rounded them downward, for what went on the window sticker. And then another round of revisions happened around 2007 or so.

andre1969

When the 267 was introduced for '79, it had 125 hp. That doesn't sound half bad, given its displacement. For comparison the 305-2bbl got choked down to 130 that year. Ford's 302, in the LTD, only had 129! And the Mopar 318-2bbl only had 135.

But then, for '80 it was cut to 120 hp, and then 115 for 1981-82.

The only road test I've ever seen of a 267 is that one C&D did where they put an '81 Malibu sedan up against an Omega with the 2.8. It did 0-60 in 14.0 seconds. That sounds bad, but the car was also a fairly chunky 3500 lb. And they don't list the axle ratio, but according to automobile catalogue, only the 2.29:1 axle was offered with it that year.

In '79, the 2.29:1 was standard, but a 2.56 and 2.73 were offered. And in addition to the 125 hp, it had 215 ft-lb of torque, compared to 200 for the '81. So I imagine a '79 Malibu or Monte Carlo with the 267, and one of the optional ratios, might not be too bad?

uplanderguy

RE.: Chevy 4.3 L V6–I remember when the biggest, most standout engine emblems at Chevy were reserved for the biggest engines. By the time the 4.3 arrived the 305 engine got you no identification, but the 4.3 got you an eight or nine-inch “4.3 Fuel Injection” nameplate on the left side of the decklid, and on the front fender in ‘86 and after, where there’d be nothing normally. Yuck!

sda

Did the 3 speed automatic in the Cutlass et al benefit from a lock up torque converter? It was a different transmission yet my 82 X body Skylark with the 2.8 V6 did. It was almost like having a 4sp as when it locked up or released it felt like the transmission shifting between gears.

andre1969

I know at some point, the lightweight THM200 got a lockup torque converter, but not sure which year. For some reason I'm thinking 1979? According to Wikipedia, the beefier THM350 got one starting in 1981.

uplanderguy

For some reason, although I couldn't guarantee it, I'm thinking the '80 model year was the first that Chevy got the lock-up torque converter. Our Monte Carlo had the 'chuggle' and 'bump' as the TSB's called it, associated with it, and a friend's '80 Caprice Classic V6 had it too. He claimed he disconnected it.

I long-remember hearing that in the '77 (and through '79) Impala and Caprice Classic, the 350 engine got you the 350 transmission. The 305 got you the THM200--the 'Chevette transmission'. So I'd love to find a nice stock '77 coupe with the 350 and F-41. Although now, I can't find anything online that absolutely confirms that, although I'm so skeptical of online information as you won't spend all day finding obvious misinformation on some of the "expert" sites written decades after-the-fact.

I always loved the black Caprice Classic sedan Motor Trend showed in their "Car of the Year" report--no vinyl top, spoked 'Sport' wheel covers, pinstriping, the bigger tires with pinstripe whitewalls, and no optional body side moldings. I would've wanted that identical car in a coupe. There are pics of it online but when I try to click on the Googled image, I get "Error 404".

ab348

Not a Chevy but I can confirm that my '78 Delta 88 with the Olds 350 V8 had the TH-350 transmission.

uplanderguy

I know you've said, andre, that the V6's in the 'midsize' cars had the THM350. I have nothing to argue that with, but I do find it hard-to-believe. Chevettes had the THM200, 267 and 305 V8's had the THM200, but the cheaper, lighter V6's, which were in most of the cars actually built (at least in what I saw at dealers then) would have had the bigger trans? Doesn't sound like GM at the time.

ab348

uplanderguy said:

I always loved the black Caprice Classic sedan Motor Trend showed in their "Car of the Year" report--no vinyl top, spoked 'Sport' wheel covers, pinstriping, the bigger tires with pinstripe whitewalls, and no optional body side moldings. I would've wanted that identical car in a coupe. There are pics of it online but when I try to click on the Googled image, I get "Error 404".

You mean this one from Curbside Classic? The article seems to have moved/disappeared but the pic remains:

uplanderguy

Yes, thanks. They had a profile shot of the car on the article page with the numbers below it, but no luck. You provided better color pics anyway, thanks!

I bet 90% of the cars came with the optional body side moldings, but with rocker trim and pinstripe (optional), the body side moldings add a cluttery third level of horizontal trim IMHO. I also like how the test car had the optional bumper strips, but not the optional guards.

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

I know you've said, andre, that the V6's in the 'midsize' cars had the THM350. I have nothing to argue that with, but I do find it hard-to-believe. Chevettes had the THM200, 267 and 305 V8's had the THM200, but the cheaper, lighter V6's, which were in most of the cars actually built (at least in what I saw at dealers then) would have had the bigger trans? Doesn't sound like GM at the time.

Yeah, I don't know that, for a fact, but I have heard it over the years. Here's one possible data point to go on, though...would a THM200 be more expensive to rebuilt than a THM350? I heard that they were, but don't have any proof. Anyway, when I had the transmission in my '82 Cutlass Supreme rebuilt back in 1993, it was about $675. And I remember asking the manager at the shop which transmission it had, and he said it was the THM350. The only other reference point I have is that in 1997, I had the Torqueflite in my '79 Newport rebuilt, and that was a bit less, $650.

And I do remember hearing the excuse, over the years, that the 6-cyl cars already got good enough fuel economy as-is, so GM focused more on wringing more mpg out of the V8s, and they figured the THM200 was "good enough". I read somewhere, years ago, that in theory, it was adequate for cars with a GVWR up to 6,000 pounds, and engines with torque up to around 260 ft-lb.

Another theory I've heard is that sometimes they would mix and match transmissions, where if there was a shortage of one type, they'd substitute in another. So, a car that would have normally gotten a THM200 might have ended up with a THM350, or vice versa. Seems to me that could cause some kind of issues though, as first and second gear were different between the two. And I don't know if they were a direct swap, either; there's a possibility the driveshaft connection might have been different.

Wikipedia also mentions something called a THM250, which was used around 1974-75 in lightweight applications, with the largest being in something like a 6-cyl Camaro or Nova. But then they say it was replaced by the THM 200 for '76, but then resurfaced in 1979. It uses the same gear ratios as a THM350. I wonder how common this THM250 was?

uplanderguy

All good points, who knows?

I laugh at how many '76-77 Colonnade Chevys I see for sale, on eBay or wherever, that say "350 engine". I nearly lived at a Chevy dealer those years and many more were equipped there with the 305 than the 350. I believe a lot of people just assume "350" as it's kind-of just the default 'small block Chevy'. That, and throw dyslexia and transposition errors into the mix. I feel nearly certain a fair amount of 305 engines get sold as 350's. There were no emblems on the cars those years indicating one or the other.

sda

uplanderguy said:

All good points, who knows?

I laugh at how many ''76-77 Colonnade Chevys I see for sale, on eBay or wherever, that say "350 engine". I nearly lived at a Chevy dealer those years and many more were equipped there with the 305 than the 350. I believe a lot of people just assume "350" as it's kind-of just the default 'small block Chevy'. I feel nearly certain a fair amount of 305 engines get sold as 350's. There were no emblems on the cars those years indicating one or the other.

The engine spec sticker, generally found on the radiator fan shroud or there abouts would identify what engine was installed, assuming the engine wasn’t changed. Another reason to inspect the car in person before buying.

uplanderguy

While on that subject I also chuckle when people show something that is non-original and say it was ‘special ordered’ that way. GM was cranking out cars by the hundreds of thousands; I doubt they would do a one-off interior for Joe from Hooterville.

sda

uplanderguy said:

While on that subject I also chuckle when people show something that is non-original and say it was ‘special ordered’ that way. GM was cranking out cars by the hundreds of thousands; I doubt they would do a one-off interior for Joe from Hooterville.

I wonder what percentage of retail vehicles were special ordered? I would think a small percentage. Did you special order your MC or luck out by finding one that met your description?

uplanderguy

I had my dealer do a dealer search in his zone. I had a minimum idea of color and equipment I wanted. He had a notebook with a computer printout that was updated regularly. He used a ruler to show me what cars in the zone at other dealers were close to my color and option requirements. My '81 Monte was built in August '80 but I bought it 1/17/81.

In my mind (LOL), 'special ordered' means something different than 'ordered'. People in ads seem to use 'special ordered' to mean "It's not available, but (fill in the blank) apparently had clout and got it built this way when no one else's was", LOL.

I think the answer that's far-more believable is that in all the years since the car was built, that feature had been changed from original.

I only ever ordered one car...my '85 two-door Celebrity Eurosport, solid plum exterior, aluminum wheels, 2.8MFI V6, ERS sound system, power windows, cruise control, bucket seats. I was told six to eight weeks and it took twelve. My salesman, whom I had to ask to wait on me as he walked right past me in the showroom because I was 27 and dressed somewhat shabbily, made the mistake of telling me that he got a Monday morning update weekly, of where cars ordered were in-process. I'd call him every Monday, LOL. Then, when the car was delivered to me, it didn't have the floormats I ordered. His first response, "Did you pay for those?", as I pointed it out on the window sticker. He grumpily said he'd order them, and he did. He couldn't get me off the premises fast enough, LOL.

The dealer was Timmers in Norcross, GA. The salesman was Carl Haddon (or Hadden). Funny that I remember that. I have no idea if they're still there or not, but will probably look online now.

sda

That sounds like a nicely equipped car and color combo. You were brave not to order a/c while in GA.

ab348

I've never special-ordered a car but my parents did. Annoyingly, the salesman managed to screw it up somewhat.

In '71 Dad wanted a new car. In the end it came down to one of 3 full-size 4-door hardtops: a '71 LTD, a '71 Pontiac Parisienne Brougham, or a '71 Dodge Monaco. I actually liked the LTD best but Mom did not, so that was out. The Pontiac was unavailable to order due to the GM strike. But we all liked the Dodge. The dealer had a 2-door in the showroom so we could sit in it and see what the interior was like, and it was very nice. He also had a Chrysler Newport there that was in colors that the parents really liked, so they ordered a Monaco 4-door hardtop in the same colors as the Chrysler, Tawny Gold Metallic, which was a very '70s sort of color, a brown with a hint of green in it with gold metallic, and a matching vinyl roof, with gold cloth interior. Among other things, the order was supposed to have the 383-2bbl engine along with a rear window defroster, both of which were forgotten by the salesman. About 6 weeks later it arrived with a 318 and plain rear glass. Still a nice car though.

stickguy

Out driving, an Andre mobile. Mid 80s I think Dodge 4 door, like the ones he has. Not sure which model. White. The interesting part, it had a burgundy 1/2 cloth roof. And a continental kit. Don’t see a lot of those on 5 MPH bumper cars I assume.

uplanderguy

My '85 Celebrity, I did indeed order A/C. I left that out of my earlier description here. Only new car I ever bought without A/C was that '81 Monte Carlo.

ab348, I remember having my salesman re-read all my options back to me before I left the dealer. He seemed annoyed. I want to say I had bought the old paperback Edmunds book and had the option codes from that too. It had the dealer cost (whatever precisely that was) which I had written down before I arrived at the dealer. I remember ol' Carl asking me, "Where'd you get those?", LOL.

He had told me the aluminum wheels were on back-order. I told him if it came in without them, I wasn't buying the car. I hated the steel wheels. He didn't seem to appreciate that either, LOL. They were the Citation X-11 wheel (the aluminum wheels). It did come in with them.

sda

I have been watching some old Mannix shows on fetv. The dark green Barracuda convertible Mannix drove was really sharp. Chrysler cars were front and center on that show. It tickles me they correctly use the sound of the Chrysler starter for the Barracuda but often on the other Chrysler cars use a GM sounding starter.

fintail

I thought these were amusing, old album covers with MBs. This looks much like my friend's coupe (which is just getting finished now, right in time for winter):



And nothing says disco chic like a whitewalled XJS (maybe with snazzy pinstripes, or just reflections) and I think a maple yellow 450SL:

andre1969

sda said:

I have been watching some old Mannix shows on fetv. The dark green Barracuda convertible Mannix drove was really sharp. Chrysler cars were front and center on that show. It tickles me they correctly use the sound of the Chrysler starter for the Barracuda but often on the other Chrysler cars use a GM sounding starter.

Didn't Mannix also have a '69 Dart GTS convertible for a season? I recall for the first season, he used a modified Toronado that was turned into a convertible. Supposedly the car was troublesome, and I heard that Mike Connors didn't like it.

I have a bad habit of sleeping with the tv on, and often it's on MeTV. Mannix comes on at 2 in the morning, then Cannon, and then Barnaby Jones. Sometimes I'll wake up, and it'll be in the middle of Mannix. If the episode grabs me, for whatever reason, I'll hit the DVR to record it, and watch it later.

I've started noticing the sound effects more and more on some of those old tv shows, too, and have noticed that sometimes if they have a Chrysler product starting up, but dub in the sound of a different starter, it'll get my attention.

Awhile back, on a Barnaby Jones episode, someone slammed the door on a '76 or so Malibu, with the window rolled down. And the first thing I noticed was, well, they certainly didn't dub THAT sound in! There's definitely some truth to what that YouTube guy said, about how Ford and even Chrysler did their frameless door windows better than GM in those days.

Now that I think about it, even back in '73 Consumer Reports said that. When the Colonades came out, they mentioned the windows being frameless like on the Torino, but that Ford did a better job with the seals, and just the quality in general.

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

I never drove one, but I thought it was interesting that they began offering the new 4.3L FI V6 in the '85 Monte Carlo. Somehow, the others ended up soldiering on with the old 3.8. Chevy used the 4.3 in Caprice/Impala cars and also Astro vans and pickups (I think). Maybe not enough to go around.

Here's an interesting little contradiction. For 1985, the Buick brochure only lists the 3.8 2bbl, 3.8 turbo, and 4.3 (263) Olds Diesel V6 as being offered in the Regal. I was thinking it was '85 that it finally started using the 307 as an option, but it turns out it was actually '86! Seems to me that would put the Regal at a disadvantage, but it still sold fairly well...about 120,000 coupes (not counting the T-type and Grand National). For comparison the Cutlass Supreme moved about 149,000 coupes (not counting the 442).

The EPA website, however, lists the Chevy 262 (4.3) V6 being offered in the Regal, with both a 3- or 4-speed automatic. It's possible that the EPA website is wrong. But, I wonder if it's also possible that the Buick brochure was printed early on, and at some point a last minute decision was made to offer the Chevy 262?

The EPA website also lists the Olds 350 Diesel as an option, as well, which the brochure doesn't. Here's the table I got that info from: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/epadata/85guide.txt

sda

I didn’t know the 4.3 V6 diesel was offered in the Regal yet it was offered in the A bodies such as the Century and Cutlass Ciera. From what I’ve read that was a decent engine though I think the take rate was low as the V8 diesels had already given the buying public a bitter taste of unreliability and multiple expensive repairs. I know dad’s 79 Eldorado diesel fit that mold. And still, if you ask dad, the Eldorado was his favorite car.

ab348

andre1969 said:

sda said:

I have been watching some old Mannix shows on fetv. The dark green Barracuda convertible Mannix drove was really sharp. Chrysler cars were front and center on that show. It tickles me they correctly use the sound of the Chrysler starter for the Barracuda but often on the other Chrysler cars use a GM sounding starter.

Didn't Mannix also have a '69 Dart GTS convertible for a season? I recall for the first season, he used a modified Toronado that was turned into a convertible. Supposedly the car was troublesome, and I heard that Mike Connors didn't like it.

I have a bad habit of sleeping with the tv on, and often it's on MeTV. Mannix comes on at 2 in the morning, then Cannon, and then Barnaby Jones. Sometimes I'll wake up, and it'll be in the middle of Mannix. If the episode grabs me, for whatever reason, I'll hit the DVR to record it, and watch it later.

I've started noticing the sound effects more and more on some of those old tv shows, too, and have noticed that sometimes if they have a Chrysler product starting up, but dub in the sound of a different starter, it'll get my attention.

Awhile back, on a Barnaby Jones episode, someone slammed the door on a '76 or so Malibu, with the window rolled down. And the first thing I noticed was, well, they certainly didn't dub THAT sound in! There's definitely some truth to what that YouTube guy said, about how Ford and even Chrysler did their frameless door windows better than GM in those days.

Now that I think about it, even back in '73 Consumer Reports said that. When the Colonades came out, they mentioned the windows being frameless like on the Torino, but that Ford did a better job with the seals, and just the quality in general.

Mannix had a Barris-custom Toronado in its first season when the premise of the show was different - he was working then for a high-tech investigation outfit, not the one-man PI shop he became starting in S2. With S2 he started driving the Dart convertible and stayed with it for a few seasons. It had a few custom touches like wheels and grille but nothing as extreme as the Toro.

Then in 1970 he switched to a dark green Cuda convertible. Funnily enough that car never looked good to me on TV - the paint color seemed dull and the black interior did it no favors. Then the next season they either changed cars or just the front clip and he had a '71 in the same colors. Same thing happened in 'the next season and he had a '72 - only there wasn't a '72 Cuda convertible made by Chrysler, so that was definitely a different front end grafted to one of the older cars. For '73 he went to a Challenger hardtop with a sunroof and I think stayed with it the rest of the run.

Regarding starter motors I know Universal Studios had a Chrysler starter (the Hamtramck Hummingbird gear-reduction type) recorded as a sound effect and they used it in a lot of different shows. Of course they didn't care what kind of car was being shown. Other studios probably had other types of starter sounds used in the same role.

On the Colonnades, I remember taking the door panel off the drivers door of my '77 LeMans to try to fix the rattly window glass sound when you closed the door. There were two guides or stops near the top of the inner door frame that you could adjust, covered with a soft fuzzy sort of material. Moving them helped, but I could never totally get rid of the sound and make it sound solid. I suspect there were a lot of other parts buried deeper inside that you couldn't get at easily contributing to the problem.

sda

On our 73 Grand Am 4dr Colonnade, if fully rolled down the glass rattled in both front doors when the door was swung closed. It created a fragile and cheap sound as the glass slapped back and forth within the door cavity. If the window was at least partially raised it didn’t rattle.

lemko1968

1976 Chrysler Newport with a very unique interior.

ab348

The Chrysler "Castilian" trim.

sda

fintail said:

I thought these were amusing, old album covers with MBs. This looks much like my friend's coupe (which is just getting finished now, right in time for winter):



And nothing says disco chic like a whitewalled XJS (maybe with snazzy pinstripes, or just reflections) and I think a maple yellow 450SL:

I have that JB album on vinyl.

tjc78

@ab348 said:
The Chrysler "Castilian" trim.

The 70s personified on a seat cushion.

uplanderguy

I remember those Chrysler interiors. It is individual!

I test-drove a new, '77, I think, Monza 2+2. It was white and had a similar interior, base color white and red and blue Native American pattern not unlike that one.

Speaking of the 'Hamtramck Hummingbird', I am Carly Simon's lifelong-biggest music fan. Just last week I came across the old (1985) video of her rather obscure tune "Tired of Being Blonde" which I remember VH-1 playing the video a good bit at the time.

At about .06 in the video you hear a Chrysler starting. At about .40, she sings the lyric, "He left in the '70 Dodge that he drove her in". Probably a total accident, but accurate! LOL

DIrected by Jeremy Irons as I remember. I think they were an item about that time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKaaF757mIw

fintail

Mid 00s GM time this morning, saw a Saablazer and a Malibu Maxx.

ab348

Carly certainly went through a great many partners.

uplanderguy

She did. Later that year she was briefly engaged to drummer Russ Kunkel too.

She's been living (actually, he's living with her) with a surgeon--no, not a plastic surgeon!--since 2007.

In the '90's she dated Keith Hernandez. In the early '80's she dated Al Corley from "Dynasty". They met when the back of him (LOL) was used on the (excellent, IMHO) cover photo of her album "Torch".

fintail

Saw another Malibu Maxx today, this one a high spec model with the big moonroof and SS style wheels. Also saw a Camry 5 door, yet another Tempo (are they all here now?), early Pathfinder which seems downright dinky compared to modern 4x4s, ~60 Beetle, pristine early Corsica with chrome/steel style hubcaps.