I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

scott1256

I spent my first 17.5 years in Montreal. It would be a stretch to say the Citroen DS was common, but I saw a number of them in the 1960s and they surely stood out.

The model name 'DS' was given by Citroen based on a pun in French. 'DS' is pronounced 'Day-ess' in French which is a homonym for 'Goddess'.

I well remember the odd squished look of a parked DS and the way it raised up when the key was turned! The turn signals in the roof corner pods were orange which was unique at the time.

Cheers,
Scott.

andre1969

but there used to be a shop about 20 minutes or so from me, in Edgewater, Md, that specialized in Citroens. I was out there in 1995, when a friend of a friend of mine used to rent an adjacent warehouse and was trying to start a recording studio. I remember they had about 6 or 7 old Citroens scattered about, in different states of assembly.

I always thought it would be neat to have one, but I imagine they'd be a pain to maintain?

andys120

height of the car to the point that a jack was not required. You'd simply get it to "kneel" on the opposite corner and it would raise
one wheel right off the ground. Imagine that level of complexity in a 1956 automobile.

The only thing more complex than the ID/DS series was the Citroen SM
which featured a Maserati V6 and even more whiz-bang luxo-futuristic features.

andre1969

on an episode of "CHiPs", a Citroen driving down the road on only 3 wheels. I really doubt it would be safe, but could you really get one to do that? Jon and Ponch weren't amused ;-)

jrosasmc

Don't forget the Peugeot 505 too- they were good if you avoided the bad PRV V-6.

Mr_Shiftright

505 was nicer looking but the gas engines had problems, too...the turbos especially.

One weird thing about the DS is that you had to take the rear fender off to change the tire! Good thing was it only took one bolt to do it. I seem to recall it just hinged out of the way.

andre1969

unbolt the sheetmetal on the doors to replace it if it got damaged? Or is that some other car I'm thinking of? I also kinda remember some car (or maybe it was just a concept) where the doors were extra-thick, and actually had storage for suitcases inside them!

scott1256

There could be a market for the Peugot. I have had some rental Peugots in Europe - most recently a 406 sedan with the smaller (2.0 liter) HDI diesel and the 5 speed manual. I registered 50.3 miles per (US) gallon average over about 8 days and nearly 2000 miles. The car had great torque and a noticeable lack of traditional diesel clatter.

Cheers, Scott.

Mr_Shiftright

I know scott, it was a real eye-opener that Peugeot diesel. Really fun to drive.

Hmmm...a car with door thick enough for suitcases? I'm stumped on that one Andre.

Can you name the car where the doors slide forward, like on a minivan?

andre1969

have doors that slid forward?

scott1256

I have a vague memory (maybe wrong after 40 years!) that the brake 'pedal' on the Citroen DS was a bulb on the the floor where traditional pedal would be. The bulb responded to foot pressure to apply the brakes.
Perhaps some here can confirm or correct this.

Cheers, Scott.

andys120

rather than a pedal on the floor in the ID/DS as well as the SM, IIRC. You wouldn't call it a bulb, it resembled the floor mounted dimmer switches on older US cars, just a bit larger. It sounds weird but it was said to work pretty much the same, the harder you pressed, the more braking you got.

scott1256

I have never driven a DS but thought I remembered the odd button on the floor between the clutch and throttle pedals.
Scott.

jrosasmc

What was the driving experience of a Citroen like?

And, per Mr. Shifright's comment, I've heard contradicting stories about Peugeot 505 engines. Either they were good or they were just plain terrible.

fintail

I saw a white Peugeot 505 wagon today, a late-looking model with weird ground effects. A little dirty, but all there.

Mr_Shiftright

a peugeot wagon with ground effects? The mind boggles. We need a mobile swat team of "Car Cops" to take people's keys away before they strike again.

scott1256

You can't stop them, Mr. Shiftright.
They will just express their sense of fashion in some other way........carriage roof on an Infiniti Q45 or Cadillac CTS, gold wire wheels on a Mercedes E class, etc.
There is a morbid fascination when one of these creations looms in view - like rubber-necking at an accident! *S*

vikd

...someone should take Shaq's keys from him! See the Cribs episode devoted solely to his montrous house in Orlando? The guy's got a couple of dream garages, but a vehicle within one of them is an afront to the rest of them. It's an early 90's Merc vert with a Testarossa body kit bolted on to it!!! Egads that thing was hideous!!!

My Dad has had both a 504 and a 505. I actually really liked them. 'Course thats prolly because I simply rode around in them and didnt have to pay for the repairs. I seem to remember that they didnt have frequent problems (lucky I guess) but when something did go wrong, it was two weeks minimum before he got them back. Wonderfully comfortable and luxurious interiors both. The 505 STi had the first heated seats I'd since seen up to that point in any vehicle...

Regards... Vikd

jrosasmc

Hey Mr. Shiftright- Does the basic Alfa twin-cam engine have 8 or 16 valves in it? I'm saying that it always had four valves per cylinder.

michaellno

...yep, saw that "Cribs" episode with Shaq. Oh my! is all I can say.

I always liked the looks of the 505. I remember a dealership in my hometown (since closed) that sold Peugeots and Fiats. I really tried to convince my folks to buy a Fiat Brava when they came out. I remember C&D giving it a fairly good review. I guess now I'm sorta glad they didn't.

Of course, I almost bought a Renault Medallion (I think it was known as the 21 in Europe) when they were being sold by AMC dealers back in the mid to late 80's.

I, for one, would like to see a bit more diversity on the roads here in the US. Something like the Renault Megane Scenic might work here, or even the Honda Jazz. The Fiat Multipla, however, could rival the Aztek for ugliness (the Multipla would at least have an advantage in utility).

ateixeira

Multipla is hideous. They're sold in Brazil, and the funny thing is they're viewed as a "luxury" car because of all the space. Executives buy them!

Another egg-shaped car is the Citroen Xsara Picasso. My brother just bought one. It competes with the Scenic in Brazil, both are very popular.

They're eye sores, but they're smaller and more fuel efficient than our minivans.

-juice

michaellno

...the easiest way to see those types of cars here in the US is to double or triple the federal gasoline tax, taking gas prices north of $2 a gallon.

How many folks would be willing to pay $60-75 for a tank of gas?

Since we were talking about the quality of vehicles back in 1983, what were you all driving that year?

I was in a 1979 Pontiac Sunbird with the 2.5L "Iron Duke" 4-cylinder engine, 4-speed manual transmission, beige with tan vinyl seats. No A/C, no tach, no power anything, aftermarket stereo, sunroof and a pair of sheepskin seat covers over those vinyl seats. I was living in Phoenix at the time, in college, and those covers were absolutely necessary with no A/C!

ateixeira

Here they're too chicken. They even temporarily repeal gas taxes when prices break $2 per.

I got my first car a couple of years later, a 1980 Mustang Ghia with the 3.3l I-6 engine. You could sit in the engine bay next to the engine to work on it, there was so much room. Turns out that was convenient, because it always needed work!

It was a beautiful Rusty Orange color, which was also convenient - to camouflage the real rust.

Shifty's right, that was an era best forgotten.

-juice

Mr_Shiftright

I think the Escalade should be viewed as a danger sign of who is soon going to prison.

Alfa engines were usually plain 'ol two valves per cylinder except for...lemme think a minute.

jrosasmc

I'll help you, Shifty- I believe the V-6s in the last 164 Quadrifoglios Alfa sent here in '94 and '95 were DOHC 24-valve units.

jrosasmc

Oh one more thing- I always thought the last versions of the classic Alfa twin-cam in the final Spiders were as sophisticated as, say, BMW or Mercedes sixes.

Mr_Shiftright

Er...well, I dunno. That 4 cylinder engine is basically the same as the 1956 engine you know, with fuel injection and variable valve timing and EI added on. I think the last Spiders HERE used that old engine design but in Italy they went to a V-6 with twin plugs (did I get that right?).

jrosasmc

Shifty- I was reading up extensively on Alfas this afternoon to catch up on the latest trends...no, the 105-Series (1966-93) Spiders used the old four till the very end. The Europe-only new-gen Spider, still in production today, got the new "Twin Spark" four and V-6 in '96 I believe.

jrosasmc

Pat Braden, in his classic "Alfa Romeo Owners' Bible," called the Spider a "modern Morgan that didn't require a lot of changes in its long run.

Mr. Shiftright, did you ever meet or know Mr. Braden?

Mr_Shiftright

No, I didn't meet him, unfortunately. A much respected man. He died recently, too bad.

I would hesitate to call an Alfa a "morgan". That's kind of insulting, as the Alfa was a very sweet and sophisticated sportscar while the Morgan is primitive and backward looking.

In terms of ride quality, an Alfa would be 20th century and the Morgan 18th century.

fintail

The 505 I saw with the ground effects appeared to have them from the factory. There was a front air dam, side skirts, and a rear skirt or whatever it is termed. It was a period job, without a doubt.

Today I saw a big early 80s Olds 98 (I think) diesel, extremely loud.

andre1969

I see why so many of you hate that era in automotive history...you just bought the wrong cars!! ;-) I'm looking at it through a different perspective today, relying on a 1985 Chevy Silverado with 110K miles on it to get back and forth to work, while my 2000 Intrepid sits in the shop, on the blink...

Oh yeah, at the dealership today, I saw something that's becoming more and more obscure...a brand-new Dodge Ram pickup truck with a standard cab, and an 8-foot bed. I remmeber back when it seemed that was the norm for a standard-sized pickup. Crew cabs, extended cabs, short beds, stepsides, etc were the exception. Seems like you don't hardly see regular cab, long-bed pickups anymore. Anyway, it was marked down to something like $16K, so I was kinda wondering what was wrong with it!

Mr_Shiftright

How about the recent listing on Ebay of:

1969 Jawa Velorex?

This "beauty" was made in Czechoslovakia (I get an A for spelling) from 1940s-70s. 3 wheels, Naugahyde exterior, and a powerful (!) 350cc, two stroke engine.

Reserve was $5,400, car got 15 bids but no sale.

You all missed your chance to be the first on your block!

andys120

a motorcycle?

fintail

I think it is made by the motorcycle company....a motorcycle with doors, more or less.

Speaking of Czech cars, I'd like to have a Tatra 77, an early model with the headlights integrated into the hood. Now there's obscure.

michaellno

...I spotted an odd looking white 4 door hatchback. It looked sort of like the Daewoo Lanos, only a bit bigger.

Once I got closer, I saw that it was a Nissan Almera that had Mexican plates on it. I knew the Almera was available in Europe, but not in Mexico.

lancerfixer

Purely out of morbid curiousity, what's your take on these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2446643109&category=5358

stickguy

anyone who would pay 45K for that Aston has to be nuts. I don't care how low the miles are, that baby will eat you alive once you start using it.

As I believe Shifty has pointed out, why pay extra for a no-mile car, since you can't use it without blowing the attraction?

Mr_Shiftright

Well now, the asking price is in theory within current values, but yes, you would have to be nuts to buy this car for $4,500 much less $45,000.

What have you got here? A very obsolete, old-tech car that is plummeting in value year by year. It is unloved by collectors and generally even spurned by Aston Martin freaks. Repairs costs are...what's the word above "outrageous"...?

I just can't see any upside on a car like this. It isn't even good looking. Apparently, the high tech but old tech electronic dashboard needs a NASA technician for repairs.

danf5

stickguy warned that a Lagonda (4 door AM) now on eBay would eat the buyer alive. Here's another, with the chomping well-documented: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2446665066&category=6212

I don't think I want one of them.

andre1969

awhile back, on my way home from work. Thing that really struck me odd was that the roofline has a strong resemblance to my old 1980 Malibu coupe! It was even a similar color...light metallic blue!

That wasn't the first time Chevy aped a Ferrari roofline, though. The '75 Monza hatchback had a roofline that was very close to some other Ferrari, but I forget the model.

andys120

assuming the bidding doesn't get out of line. Even if it's a four seater, it's still a Ferrari V12/5speed (this was the first model avail w AT IIRC).

It seems to have a well documented history and aside from having a lower starting bid, the 412i has a much better reputation than the goof ball Lagonda.

Since having a V12 Ferrari is a goal of many I'd expect this car to go into the high 30s, possibly more. If it were a contemporary two-seater it would go for many times that.

Mr_Shiftright

Miles are too high. High miles Ferraris of this era are virtually parts cars. It might hit $35K but the buyer would be most foolish, as he would not have calculated the huge penalty for the high miles. Most buyers will not touch a high miles car.

ateixeira

Boy, that stlying has *not* aged gracefully. Looks like a circa 80s Seville with a body kit.

The 412 is at least slightly interesting. Looks like a Mondial coupe, is that what it is, basically?

I did the match, that's about $11,000 per year just in Maintenance & Repair. Edmunds TCO would be killer!

-juice

Mr_Shiftright

Most Ferrari owners have to figure $1 to $1.50 a mile to drive one. So you can see why a 60K mile car is suicidal, especially a 412, which hasn't a hope of ever increasing in value beyond a slight creep up for inflation, maybe, if you're lucky.

And if you have certain kinds of Ferraris (mostly any of the mass-produced, or what we call "serial production" Ferraris) with damage or major needs, then you really have nothing. You buy a car like this for $35K, you are $10K in the hole on depreciation when you wake up next morning and another $6K down for the first major service. Many of these cars require engine removal for service.

stickguy

Reading that service history gave me heart palpitations. Go thing my new toy is a Miata!

of interest was the one service that was just an oil/filter/lube cost $263 all by itself.

Forget Princeton, I'm sending my son to learn how to be a Ferrari mechanic so he can support me in my old age.

also noticed that in the summer of '99, the sucker (er, owner) did about 6K in 2 months! Isn't that about 2 normal years use for a Ferrari?

Cheaper by far to lease a new one.

vikd

...14k in May of '99 alone!!! Unbelievable...

Regards... Vikd

ateixeira

In 3 years and 2 months my 1993 Miata has cost me $10.74 in repairs total. Clutch slave cylinder rebuild kit. And that was expensive! Some people found them for $5! LOL

OK, I'm not including oil changes and other maintenance. Still, it's not even $50 per year given I do it myself.

Miata is a no-brainer low cost toy.

-juice

fintail

This is cool

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2446904855&category=6330

lancerfixer

That is pretty cool. I must admit an odd fascination with that Lagonda (and an even bigger one with that asking price...sheesh!). Perhaps I should get my head examined. It's probably a good thing I'm not rich...my garage would resemble some twisted automotive version of the Island of Misfit Toys. Would it come as a shock that I really like that Ferrari, too?