I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

andre1969

Yeah, the proportions of that '42 DeSoto are a bit cartoonish. The artwork in general seems to have sort of a 40's-futuristic look to it...if that makes sense. In contrast, here's a 1942 Chrysler ad, or at least part of a brochure:

http://www.imperialclub.com/Yr/1942/42FluidDrive/Page03-big.jpg

To me, this seems more representative of the times...richer colors, less washed-out, and the cars drawn more realistically, although the proportions are still off...they tended to draw them to look longer than they really were, especially in the hood.

roadburner

Another of my dad's DeSoto stories involved a new '40s model where the hidden headlamp doors would not open one night- miles from home.. He ended up "fixing" it with a crowbar.

Mr_Shiftright

Gee, I wish I had a "Simpli-Matic" transmission

andre1969

I heard that cab companies really liked the Fluid Drive setup of the Mopars in the 40's and early 50's, because the drivers could do all day without having to shift.

The GM Hydramatic transmission probably made Fluid Drive obsolete, but I imagine it added a considerable cost to the cars in those days, and was probably viewed as a bit of a luxury item, at least until the early/mid 50's.

fintail

I like old illustrations like that - the people in them are all under 5 feet tall, apparently. I think I've read about 42 Chryslers that had less chrome trim, the "blackout" models made just before the end of production.

andre1969 said:

To me, this seems more representative of the times...richer colors, less washed-out, and the cars drawn more realistically, although the proportions are still off...they tended to draw them to look longer than they really were, especially in the hood.

hpmctorque

fintail said:

I just know a friend of mine had his 03 Accord V6 lose a transmission promptly at 60K. He had an extended warranty, but he worried about another failure until the car was replaced.

The brand had some prestige, in maybe the 1988-1995 timeframe.

hpmctorque said:

The TL's transmission problems were with the 2000-2003 models years, not a standout. The somewhat illusive prestige factors seems to trump the attributes of Acura cars.

Your friend's transmission failure isn't surprising since the '03 Accord V6 used the same 5-speed automatic as the TL of that year.

As for Acura's prestige premium over the Accord, it has narrowed significantly, to the point where it's minimal to non-existent now. In fact, the '99 Accord EX V6 with leather interior has a higher resale value than the '99 TL, with equal mileage, condition and color. According to Edmunds, a silver TL with 150,000 miles, in "clean" condition is quoted at $2,288 in a private sale compared with $2,747 for the Accord.

The difference is significant in percentage terms, which is puzzling since the TL looks sleeker, has a 3.2 vs. 3.0 V6, and the interior is a little more upscale. For the same money I'd take the TL, and I certainly wouldn't pay a premium for the Accord. However, the market is the final arbiter of value, and for reasons I don't understand buyers assign a 20% higher value to the Accord. Maybe people who buy what many would consider a "beater," even a well maintained one, perceive that the cost of ownership favors the Accord, but that's just a guess. Or, maybe the TL has negative cache' nowadays.

fintail

That's really odd, Accord vs TL. I can't imagine negative cachet, although the last few years of TL surely haven't helped matters. I'd choose a 99 TL over an Accord, too. Does the 99 TL have any Achilles heel, like a transmission?

I have to imagine transmission failures were highest on Odyssey, due to weight and being used in more strenuous conditions.

hpmctorque said:

Or, maybe the TL has negative cache' nowadays.

stickguy

I suspect it is all based on the name, and the assumption that Accords run forever for no money, but an Acura is an expensive "luxury" car. Ignoring the fact of course that for the V6, it was the same powertrain. The 4 cyl might be a different story.

and yes, it seems that Odysseys were the biggest problem. A weak trans design, marginal for a sedan, asked to haul around overloaded 2 ton vans with terrible aerodynamics. A bad recipe.

stickguy

oh, FWIW, the person that bought my 2000 TL for their 16 YO daughter said that they were replacing a similar vintage (late 90s) Avalon, because she did not like it because it was "an old persons car".

hpmctorque

fintail said:

That's really odd, Accord vs TL. I can't imagine negative cachet, although the last few years of TL surely haven't helped matters. I'd choose a 99 TL over an Accord, too. Does the 99 TL have any Achilles heel, like a transmission?

I have to imagine transmission failures were highest on Odyssey, due to weight and being used in more strenuous conditions.

hpmctorque said:

Or, maybe the TL has negative cache' nowadays.

The TL transmission became problematic with the introduction of the new transmission in the 2000 model. The 2000 was virtually identical to the 1999 in all other respects. A new platform, including an all-new 60 degree V6, featuring VTEC for the first time, was introduced for 1999, whereas the previous (also the first) generation TL was essentially a restyled Vigor with a new name. In addition to the Vigor's 5-cylinder engine you could opt for a version of the 90 degree V6 that was used in the Legend in the first generation TL. For 1999 the new V6 replaced the two older engines.

As an aside, the VTEC feature feels similar to a low boost turbocharger when the accelerator is depressed beyond a certain point, from approximately the RPM midpoint to the top of the RPM range. The VTEC activation is also aural, so you can feel and hear the power surge. I don't think the 1999 Accord V6 shares that feature.

One difference that could negatively impact the value of old TLs compared with the Accord V6s is that premium fuel is recommended for the TL. However, I imagine that many or most buyers of older cars either wouldn't know about that difference, or would ignore it.

For me, the value anomaly between the TL and the Accord is interesting and somewhat amusing, but I don't really care what the pricing relationship is, or whether our car is worth $2,000 vs. $3,000, or $100 for that matter. Our TL has served us very well, and at this point doesn't owe us anything. We could trade it for a new car, but our TL performs flawlessly. It remains very solid. Cosmetically, externally and internally, it's in good condition, with the patina one would expect of a well cared for 15 1/2 year old car that's been parked in lots and garages over the years. We try to not park next to other cars, but you know how that goes. One advantage of an older car is that you worry less about minor scratches and dings than with a new car.

laurasdada

Spotted a "de-cladded" Pontiac Aztek on the way home last night. Still ugly after all these years.

Loved my '05 TL, flawless for 6.5 years, 85k miles. Great all around car, shame what Acura did to it, style-wise, with the next gen. IMO, of course. Lose the beak, Acura...

fintail

I guess the low maintenance/high value rep of an Accord might help it over a "luxury" car. I remember the 99 TL being a pioneer in a couple of ways - one of the first non-terribly "expensive" cars to have xenon lights and integrated nav as options.

hpmctorque said:

We try to not park next to other cars, but you know how that goes. One advantage of an older car is that you worry less about minor scratches and dings than with a new car.

hpmctorque

fintail said:

I guess the low maintenance/high value rep of an Accord might help it over a "luxury" car. I remember the 99 TL being a pioneer in a couple of ways - one of the first non-terribly "expensive" cars to have xenon lights and integrated nav as options.

hpmctorque said:

We try to not park next to other cars, but you know how that goes. One advantage of an older car is that you worry less about minor scratches and dings than with a new car.

Xenon H.I.D. headlights were standard equipment on '99 TLs. NAV was one of the few factory options that year. Ours isn't equipped with NAV.

The downside to those headlights are that they're very expensive to replace, in terms of parts and labor. That may be another reason why a '99 Accord EX V6 is worth more than a '99 TL. Ours are still original, but maybe they're on borrowed time.

fintail

That's pretty significant, really. Although 15 years later, they are still considered a cool feature. But back in 1999, I don't think you could get them on anything cheaper than a C-class, and it was an option on that.

I don't hear of many failures on old school xenons in period MB. I bet yours will be fine.

hpmctorque said:

Xenon H.I.D. headlights were standard equipment on '99 TLs. NAV was one of the few factory options that year. Ours isn't equipped with NAV.

The downside to those headlights are that they're very expensive to replace, in terms of parts and labor. That may be another reason why a '99 Accord EX V6 is worth more than a '99 TL. Ours are still original, but maybe they're on borrowed time.

explorerx4

A big problem with those TL's with the HID's is that you just pull them right out of the car. No tools required.

stickguy

Wasn't it Nissan that had a major issue? Some model where the expensive ones fit a cheaper car. Maxima maybe?

My TL had an intermittent case where the driver's would go out. Only happened a few times in 6 years. Came right back on if you turned them off and back on. But, the parts are pricey. Bulbs alone are not cheap, and if it needed more parts (balances, or what not) it could really add up.

I have never been that big a fan of them anyway. They don't do that much better a job than good quality regular lamps with upgraded bulbs. Which are vastly cheaper if something does happen.

hpmctorque

stickguy said:

Wasn't it Nissan that had a major issue? Some model where the expensive ones fit a cheaper car. Maxima maybe?

My TL had an intermittent case where the driver's would go out. Only happened a few times in 6 years. Came right back on if you turned them off and back on. But, the parts are pricey. Bulbs alone are not cheap, and if it needed more parts (balances, or what not) it could really add up.

I have never been that big a fan of them anyway. They don't do that much better a job than good quality regular lamps with upgraded bulbs. Which are vastly cheaper if something does happen.

I agree that the much higher replacement cost of xenons are a net negative. It did help to positively differentiate the TL when they were first introduced as a standard item for 1999, though.

I recall that they were a hot theft item several years ago, but maybe less so now. Is there a significantly cheaper after-market replacement?

fintail

Yeah I think it was the Maxima that had the stolen headlight issue back in the day. I don't remember what they could be interchanged with, other than other Maximas.

stickguy

I think that was right. they were a direct swap, so the rarer high end maximas with HIDs got gutted and people put them on plain Maximas.

robr2

stickguy said:

I think that was right. they were a direct swap, so the rarer high end maximas with HIDs got gutted and people put them on plain Maximas.

...and they fit older Maximas as well. IIRC, the HID's from the TL were a direct fit on Civics of the time.

hpmctorque

robr2 said:

stickguy said:

I think that was right. they were a direct swap, so the rarer high end maximas with HIDs got gutted and people put them on plain Maximas.

...and they fit older Maximas as well. IIRC, the HID's from the TL were a direct fit on Civics of the time.

Since the parts + labor to replace the Xenon headlights on a 1999 TL could cost as much or even more than the wholesale value of the car, I'm wondering whether the standard headlights of the 1999 Civic could be low cost replacements for the TL's headlights? If yes, would they just bolt in? Also, if yes, would any other modifications be required?

robr2

hpmctorque said:

Since the parts + labor to replace the Xenon headlights on a 1999 TL could cost as much or even more than the wholesale value of the car, I'm wondering whether the standard headlights of the 1999 Civic could be low cost replacements for the TL's headlights? If yes, would they just bolt in? Also, if yes, would any other modifications be required?

My understanding is that there would wiring that has to be changed out as well. IIRC, HID lights require a much higher voltage than halogen lights. A search says 15,000 volts at start up and 80 volts during use so ballasts are added to the wiring.

hpmctorque

robr2 said:

hpmctorque said:

Since the parts + labor to replace the Xenon headlights on a 1999 TL could cost as much or even more than the wholesale value of the car, I'm wondering whether the standard headlights of the 1999 Civic could be low cost replacements for the TL's headlights? If yes, would they just bolt in? Also, if yes, would any other modifications be required?

My understanding is that there would wiring that has to be changed out as well. IIRC, HID lights require a much higher voltage than halogen lights. A search says 15,000 volts at start up and 80 volts during use so ballasts are added to the wiring.

Thanks for your excellent explanation. I suspected that it wouldn't be simple, and would probably not worth the bother and expense for those modifications.

The reality is that modern cars get expensive to repair as they age, which is probably why many are scrapped when they appear to still have a lot of useful life.

The headlights on my '99 TL with 150,000 miles still work okay, but I'm just investigating my options in the event one of them burns out or is damaged.

roadburner

My MS3 and my son's X3 both have Xenons; I have found that both manufacturers charge an extreme premium for their bulbs. I bought replacement bulbs made by Philips on Amazon for significantly less...

stickguy

For the TL, there are options on the Net for quite a spread of prices (though the cheap ones still seem to be $80+)

the bigger issue is they recommend against DIY replacement, so add labor. And the big potential expense is when another part of the system fails. Those parts can get real pricey. I figured that with mine, since it did it's trick about 5 years apart, that it was something besides the bulb!

hpmctorque

stickguy said:

For the TL, there are options on the Net for quite a spread of prices (though the cheap ones still seem to be $80+)

the bigger issue is they recommend against DIY replacement, so add labor. And the big potential expense is when another part of the system fails. Those parts can get real pricey. I figured that with mine, since it did it's trick about 5 years apart, that it was something besides the bulb!

What did you do when your Xenon failed (in your ~'05 TL, right?), and, if you don't mind saying, what did the total part(s) plus labor cost?

ab348

When HIDs first started appearing on vehicles I read someone's term for them as "the bright bluish beams of the bourgeoisie". Cost should be no obstacle to those using them if they wish to retain their status among the moneyed elite.

stickguy

I had a 2000 TL. since sold. I never replaced anything. It was an infrequent glitch. If you turned the lights off and back on, the one that was out came back to life. Only happened maybe 3 times in 6 years.

roadburner

stickguy said:

For the TL, there are options on the Net for quite a spread of prices (though the cheap ones still seem to be $80+)

the bigger issue is they recommend against DIY replacement, so add labor. And the big potential expense is when another part of the system fails. Those parts can get real pricey. I figured that with mine, since it did it's trick about 5 years apart, that it was something besides the bulb!

In both of my cars there are only a couple of more steps involved than when changing a conventional bulb- it's a textbook example of trying to scare you into the dealer's service department. I paid $40 each for genuine Philips D2S bulbs on Amazon.
BMW wants $213 each, while Mazda asks $267- although some online Mazda dealers offer them for "only" $208.

hpmctorque

roadburner said:

stickguy said:

For the TL, there are options on the Net for quite a spread of prices (though the cheap ones still seem to be $80+)

the bigger issue is they recommend against DIY replacement, so add labor. And the big potential expense is when another part of the system fails. Those parts can get real pricey. I figured that with mine, since it did it's trick about 5 years apart, that it was something besides the bulb!

In both of my cars there are only a couple of more steps involved than when changing a conventional bulb- it's a textbook example of trying to scare you into the dealer's service department. I paid $40 each for genuine Philips D2S bulbs on Amazon.
BMW wants $213 each, while Mazda asks $267- although some online Mazda dealers offer them for "only" $208.

Congrats for saving a bundle on the part, but how much was installation, if you didn't do it yourself?

roadburner

The X3 was DIY, and the Mazda would have been as well except for the fact that I had a minor fender bender- I gave the body shop the bulbs and they installed them while they were replacing the front fascia. Both bulbs in the Mazda were still good, but at 7 years and 135k miles I decided to replace them both so I wouldn't have to fool with replacing them later...

fintail

I remember that! I think it was an article in a mainstream car magazine, maybe dealing specifically with Audis.

For MB, I think they were optional from the start of W210 -1996 model year in the US, optional in the US on W140 S-class from 1997+, same for W202 C-class. My 1998 C43 AMG had xenons. Probably a year earlier in Europe, who has always been ahead in lighting technology, via less restrictions.

ab348 said:

When HIDs first started appearing on vehicles I read someone's term for them as "the bright bluish beams of the bourgeoisie". Cost should be no obstacle to those using them if they wish to retain their status among the moneyed elite.

magnette

Went to Westminster Bridge first thing this morning for the London to Brighton Veteran Car run - its an early start as the first cars are on the bridge by 7;00am but where else would you see so many truly ancient cars together - the youngest is 1904, so all the entries are now 110+ years old...

It was a damp start but quite warm here so they should get a good run hopefully...It takes about an hour and a quarter for them to all rattle and clank over the bridge, mixed in with the usual traffic - actually the police usually try to control things to help the veterans across the traffic lights but this year they weren't there which gave rise to some problems with cars getting baulked and stalling...

The attached is a link to the entry list for the event (I hope it works) but obviously a couple of the cars listed may not have started - there were a few broken down at the bridge and that is the first mile - its about sixty miles to Brighton, I think.

http://www.veterancarrun.com/entry-list

With the actual entries there were a few fellow travellers - people who turn up in old cars to run down to Brighton and join in the fun - and among those there was a Ford Model T, a late twenties Rolls which looked gorgeous and a Wolseley Ten from circa 1947 which looked as good as new... They all looked pretty modern (perhaps not the Ford) compared with Panhard et Levassor, De Dion Bouton, Serpollet, Berliet, Gobron Brille, etc...

Mr_Shiftright

Lucky you. Those veteran cars are beautiful---mostly hand made and machined. They're right on the historic cusp of Steampunk meets Internal Combustion. 1904---Henry Ford was barely getting started, the French and Italians were taking the lead in automotive technology, and the ghastly World War was still ten years off.

fintail

Love it. I've always wanted to see that event, and will have to do so sometime. The list was fascinating, interesting to see American makes come on to the scene around 1901. Only 1 Mercedes branded car - a big car, but I don't know if it would be a Simplex. That's what I'd want to take on the tour, a Mercedes-Simplex - maybe the first supercar.

I've always liked these veteran cars. When I visited Schlumpf, I was in awe of so many of them in one place.

My obscure sighting today was a small bumper Fiat 124 Spider.

magnette said:

Went to Westminster Bridge first thing this morning for the London to Brighton Veteran Car run -

http://www.veterancarrun.com/entry-list

With the actual entries there were a few fellow travellers .

explorerx4

Now that most of the leaves are off the trees, you can see a lot more in general. Sitting a few cars back from a red light, I see through some trees a Plum Crazy Barracuda with a matte black hood and 2 scoops. Looked like is wasn't in running shape, hood was just laying on top of the engine bay, but didn't look bad, overall.

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, another classic car gets put into its winter Rotting Chamber. Best to leave the hood loose so that the snow and rain can get in.

andys120

>My obscure sighting today was a small bumper Fiat 124 Spider.


Those are getting really scarce, the Tin Worm claimed most of them long, including my '71 1608cc --cheap Russian steel!

fintail

I spotted a 560 SEC yesterday - still looks better than most new cars.

fintail

Twice today saw the 72 T-Bird that I see around now and then - I think a dark green with white top, 70s style mags, subtle hood scoop, always kept clean, sounds kind of mean - I bet it's a 429 or similar, and someone appears to love it.

bhill2

fintail said:

Twice today saw the 72 T-Bird that I see around now and then - I think a dark green with white top, 70s style mags, subtle hood scoop, always kept clean, sounds kind of mean - I bet it's a 429 or similar, and someone appears to love it.

For some reason I have a perverse attraction to the '68-'72 four-doors. I'm sure they were total pigs from the point of view of handling and gas consumptions, and I understand that the rear seat was not all that livable, but I always did have weird tastes.

fintail

The 4 door models always seemed odd to me, because of the way the rear door opens in the C-pillar. If anything, that model presaged the movement of pimpy kind of neoclassic styling into the domestic premium market. I think the sedan only lasted til 71.

The car I see is kind of like this, but dark green with a light top, and more subtle wheels:



I have a mild soft spot for the big Birds, as my mother had one when I was little, and it is some of my earliest automotive memories.

bhill2 said:

For some reason I have a perverse attraction to the '68-'72 four-doors. I'm sure they were total pigs from the point of view of handling and gas consumptions, and I understand that the rear seat was not all that livable, but I always did have weird tastes.

bhill2

fintail said:

I think the sedan only lasted til 71.

You are correct, sir. Pardon the slight brain (um) emission.

hpmctorque

A Plymouth Prowler, traveling north at 70 mph in the HOV lane of I-270.

Mr_Shiftright

Always amazed Chrysler even built the Prowler, and then more amazed that they made it with a 6 cylinder automatic.

hpmctorque

Mr_Shiftright said:

Always amazed Chrysler even built the Prowler, and then more amazed that they made it with a 6 cylinder automatic.

Yeah, the Prowler was really an undefinable parts bin creation.

hpmctorque

fintail said:

The 4 door models always seemed odd to me, because of the way the rear door opens in the C-pillar. If anything, that model presaged the movement of pimpy kind of neoclassic styling into the domestic premium market. I think the sedan only lasted til 71.

The car I see is kind of like this, but dark green with a light top, and more subtle wheels:



I have a mild soft spot for the big Birds, as my mother had one when I was little, and it is some of my earliest automotive memories.

bhill2 said:

For some reason I have a perverse attraction to the '68-'72 four-doors. I'm sure they were total pigs from the point of view of handling and gas consumptions, and I understand that the rear seat was not all that livable, but I always did have weird tastes.

That's a nice looking barge.

fintail

Arriving at the shop. There was a W113 behind the truck, and the red thing at far right is a cool 63 Galaxie convertible with a 406.

This caught my eye inside:

ab348

One of the nice things about having an old car that needs repair from time to time is all the other cool old cars at the shop also in need of work!!

roadburner

I always thought that the 1966-1967 Toronado and Riviera were the high water mark of automotive design for that era. handsome and distinctive- different without looking bizarre.