I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

texases

187" - 188" to me is a good overall length, long enough to have good front AND rear room, but not "big". The original Taurus, the Camry, etc. are about there. My MKZ's 190", close enough.

fintail

Legroom is fine, and headroom is something where it stands out. It has somewhat squashy seats that aren't too high, and it was designed in an era when men still wore hats, it has room to spare.

benjaminh said:

Translates to 187 inches long, 70.7 inches wide, and 59 high.


(for comparison my tlx = 190.7, 73, and 57. But my guess is your car has better headroom and legroom.)

andre1969

berri said:

Up, my experience in the latter 70's was that my 76 Cutlass was better built than my 79 Monte Carlo. The 79 assembly quality was poor; windows didn't seal well, trim pieces were glued on and started falling off within a few months, gauge package was erratic with the gauges sometimes just dancing together. Maybe it just had to do with the assembly plant. The Olds was built in GA, while the Monte Carlo came from the KC area.

I don't think my '76 Grand LeMans is too horrible, build quality wise. The biggest issues, IMO, are that the gaps around the doors are pretty big...but fairly even, at least. On my '79 5th Avenue the gaps are tighter, but more uneven. Out on the highway though, I do hear something rattling in the driver's door every once in awhile. And, the back edge of the hood tends to flutter a bit at highway speeds. I think the problem is that it's just too big and unsupported. It doesn't do the "oil canning" thing like a '76 Eldorado hood, where it almost looks like a Jell-O mold jiggling at idle, and it doesn't have "cowl shake" either...I've noticed some Ford products of that era, even some early Panthers, where you'd hit a bump in the road and it's almost like you could see the shock wave come across the hood and then the firewall and dash would shimmy a bit.

I've had three of GM's downsized intermediates...an '80 Malibu coupe, '82 Cutlass Supreme coupe, and '86 Monte Carlo coupe. None of them were what I'd call horrible, either. The panel gaps were a bit tighter than my '76 LeMans, and I don't remember them being bad, at the time. But I have a feeling that,now that I have an eye for it, I'd notice them! The downsized cars definitely felt flimsier, but when you consider GM was even more extreme in jettisoning the weight from them than they were the B/C bodies, I guess that's to be expected. I do remember the Malibu and Monte Carlo both had padded dashes that cracked, horribly. I don't think the Cutlass's dash cracked, but if my memory is serving me right, its dash was a more rugged, leathery-texture material. My grandmother's '85 LeSabre had the same texture, as did every Mopar R-body I've had, and my '89 Gran Fury. That stuff seems less prone to cracking.

My '76 Grand LeMans has the stuff that feels like it would crack, but it hasn't. However, the padding on the LeMans doesn't go all the way to the windshield like it did with the Malibu and Monte Carlo. There's a metal (or might just be plastic) piece that sits on top of the dash, between the padding and the windshield, and this might be what makes the difference.

One thing that I found a bit surprising, too, is that despite being a larger car, the '76 LeMans doesn't really feel any more cumbersome than those downsized cars did. Maybe it's because there's really not *that* big of a difference in wheelbase? 112" versus 108.1"? In overall length, the LeMans is 208", while the Malibu was only 192.7". But I think the Monte and Cutlass were around 200-202". The LeMans also has 225/70/R15 tires on Rally wheels that I think are 7" wide, whereas those downsized cars just had 14" rims. The Cutlass, at least, had Olds Rally wheels, which were probably wider than normal.

stickguy

In Saratoga this weekend. Always see nice stuff there. Often originals (cobra, 300SL) because there is serious money people around in horse season.

Forgetting a lot, but a super clean 70ish corvette convertible in red, and a factory 5 cobra coupe replica.

ab348

andre1969 said:

I don't think my '76 Grand LeMans is too horrible, build quality wise. The biggest issues, IMO, are that the gaps around the doors are pretty big...but fairly even, at least. On my '79 5th Avenue the gaps are tighter, but more uneven. Out on the highway though, I do hear something rattling in the driver's door every once in awhile. And, the back edge of the hood tends to flutter a bit at highway speeds. I think the problem is that it's just too big and unsupported. It doesn't do the "oil canning" thing like a '76 Eldorado hood, where it almost looks like a Jell-O mold jiggling at idle, and it doesn't have "cowl shake" either...I've noticed some Ford products of that era, even some early Panthers, where you'd hit a bump in the road and it's almost like you could see the shock wave come across the hood and then the firewall and dash would shimmy a bit.

I've seen that both on older and newer vehicles. Our '71 Monaco had bad hood flex. On a 2-lane highway if an 18-wheeler passed you in the opposite direction the front right corner of the hood would look like it was going to bend up and fly through the windshield! It never did of course but it was alarming. My brother's Jeep Patriot also has some hood flutter on the highway but his seems more generalized.

I do remember the Malibu and Monte Carlo both had padded dashes that cracked, horribly. I don't think the Cutlass's dash cracked, but if my memory is serving me right, its dash was a more rugged, leathery-texture material. My grandmother's '85 LeSabre had the same texture, as did every Mopar R-body I've had, and my '89 Gran Fury. That stuff seems less prone to cracking.

My '76 Grand LeMans has the stuff that feels like it would crack, but it hasn't. However, the padding on the LeMans doesn't go all the way to the windshield like it did with the Malibu and Monte Carlo. There's a metal (or might just be plastic) piece that sits on top of the dash, between the padding and the windshield, and this might be what makes the difference.

Cheaper models often have dash pad cracking issues as they age. It just seems like the manufacturers used to shave a few pennies on those by using less robust material. You see Chevys and Plymouths of the '70s/'80s with cracked dashes, fewer Olds and Chryslers have that issue. Design makes a difference too, so where you have a large expanse of that material on a dash top with perforations for the radio speaker it is almost guaranteed to crack with age. On your LeMans, that panel you mention is metal. I know that because I removed it on mine to address something, maybe a rattle, that was under it. It is held in with clips and pops off.

One thing that I found a bit surprising, too, is that despite being a larger car, the '76 LeMans doesn't really feel any more cumbersome than those downsized cars did. Maybe it's because there's really not *that* big of a difference in wheelbase? 112" versus 108.1"? In overall length, the LeMans is 208", while the Malibu was only 192.7". But I think the Monte and Cutlass were around 200-202". The LeMans also has 225/70/R15 tires on Rally wheels that I think are 7" wide, whereas those downsized cars just had 14" rims. The Cutlass, at least, had Olds Rally wheels, which were probably wider than normal.

I might be proven wrong on this but I believe the Olds G-body SS wheels were only 6" wide.

You comments about the '76 LeMans not feeling cumbersome rang true with me as well. They were really nice-riding and handled well. Thinking about it I remembered that in '83 or '84 I took a vacation road trip in it. I remember I gave a co-worker a ride to her parents home on the way (they were in New Brunswick) and carried on from there. But the damndest thing is that I can't recall what my destination was! Probably a shopping trip to Freeport Me. but I have little if any recollection of it other than when driving home on the expressway I narrowly avoided a speeding ticket while being in a pack of cars pushing 80mph. I dropped out just before a rise, and on the other side was a platoon of RCMP cars reeling in speeders. But that speaks to how good a highway car it was.

roadburner

texases said:

187" - 188" to me is a good overall length, long enough to have good front AND rear room, but not "big". The original Taurus, the Camry, etc. are about there. My MKZ's 190", close enough.

The biggest car in my garage is the M235i, at 175" long. My M340i xDrive loaner is 188" long, and I definitely don't like the added length.

ab348

Saw a nice Fox-body Mustang GT convertible in traffic this evening, white, white interior (yeaaa!) and silver, not white, factory alloys. Obviously a summer car all it’s life, looked really nice. Always liked those.

sda

My neighbor has a very nice, looks new, solid red with black top and red unfaded cloth interior ‘92 Mustang LX 5.0 convertible. It is garage kept and driven sparing.

explorerx4

The white wheels were for special edition cars. Factory wheels color is 'Argent'.

benjaminh

stickguy

what a tank!

xwesx

Kind of a neat car, though. The continental kit actually works on it,, and the fins don't look too garish. If anything the conti kit tones them down a bit.

benjaminh

uplanderguy

The front of that Eldorado Brougham is cartoonish I think, but I love the rest of it. That car cost $13K in 1958!

fintail

You could buy houses here for 13K in 1958 that would be worth an easy million dollars today. Not as stylish though

Blue is a refreshing change from all of the black Eldo Broughams. When were you at LeMay, benjaminh?

uplanderguy

A blue one of those showed up to peruse our annual Studebaker-Packard meet at Summit Racing in Tallmadge, OH last year in August. I posted a pic here then. I'm with you; that blue is striking and a nice change to the black ones.

I have never seen in person a '59 Eldorado Brougham, total redesign, but I hope sometime in my life I do.

ab348

On that '58 I had never noticed the vents and sculpturing on the tops of the front fenders before.

benjaminh

fintail said:

You could buy houses here for 13K in 1958 that would be worth an easy million dollars today. Not as stylish though

Blue is a refreshing change from all of the black Eldo Broughams. When were you at LeMay, benjaminh?

Just a few days ago. Great place! I've visited Seattle almost every year since the late 1990s but somehow missed it.

explorerx4

A neighbor of my grandparents had a 57 Eldorado Brougham.
It was maroon with a sliver roof I just remember it being very shiny.

benjaminh

berri

Next time you're out in the Tacoma area, the original part (and home) of The LeMay collection is just a bit further away near and kind of across from the McChord AFB (JBLM) runways. It is also worth a visit.

benjaminh

uplanderguy

RE.: andre's posts about cracked dashes...I concur completely.

Not only the top of the new-for-'77 big Chevys' dashes cracked, but particularly the Malibu and Monte Carlo dashes from '78 to the end get cracks starting in the center and going the whole way down to the radio/heater pod. I do occasionally see some with no cracks.

It's all subjective of course, but I tend to like the Caprice Classic and Malibu Classics of that early-downsizing period best of all of the GM cars of the same wheelbase, due to generally simpler styling and slightly-shorter overall length in some cases, but that is frustrating about the dashes.

Of course, Chevys were built in higher volumes than B-O-P which is a slight turnoff to me, but GM cranked out so many cars back then no one could really say the B-O-P versions were 'rare'.

On the Chevy and Buick '78 midsizes, I like how the upper-center instrument panel was pushed back to the windshield. It's wasted space, but I think it's a slight impression of roominess. The Pontiac and Olds did not do that, and some will say to better looks I know. I like the Chevy's optional cluster with round instruments, three-plane instrument pod, gloss black trim and gold pinstripe outlining...zero woodgrain. That changed in '80.

Andre's post about lengths reminded me that although they were on the same wheelbase, the '78 Monte Carlo was nearly eight inches longer in length than the Malibu--all in the hood, I'm sure (192" vs. 200"). The Malibu looks lean in comparison to my eyes. All that said, I was absolutely stunned when I first saw a new '78 four-door Malibu Classic in two-tone gold and cream, and a '78 Grand Prix in that lightish green metallic, hidden "out back" of a couple dealers. They really did take the downsizing much-further than the '77 full-sizes did.

I've posted this before, but I could like to find this very test car.

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/vintage-review-1978-chevrolet-malibu-classic-car-and-driver-goes-crazy-for-f41/

benjaminh

The headlight on this RR are big....

fintail

Not sure I'd want to do this:

xwesx

As long as you have people in the back seats, you might keep enough traction.

imidazol97

I think Fintail's Fintaill has faded a lot in the years. This blue is much richer than your photos of your vehicle!

texases

Nah, that's a B&W photo, Ted Turner got a hold of it...

fintail

MB had half a dozen or more blue hues during that era, hard to tell what it would look like in real life. Those crazy Germans will tow anything with anything.

imidazol97

fintail said:

MB had half a dozen or more blue hues during that era, hard to tell what it would look like in real life. Those crazy Germans will tow anything with anything.

I thought that was the case with multiple blues from when I saw a maroon Fintail at Covington's MainStrasse car show and looked up color charts.

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

It's all subjective of course, but I tend to like the Caprice Classic and Malibu Classics of that early-downsizing period best of all of the GM cars of the same wheelbase, due to generally simpler styling and slightly-shorter overall length in some cases, but that is frustrating about the dashes.

With the midsized cars, I think the Malibu, and especially the coupe, came off the best, with the downsizing. I didn't think any of the sedans were particularly attractive. On the Malibu and LeMans, the roofline just seemed too big in proportion to the hood and trunk of the car, while the hunchbacks were a story all their own. The Malibu coupe, though, was nicely proportioned. The LeMans coupe came close, in my opinion, and I like how the beltline kicked up at the rear quarter window, sort of a nod to the old "Coke Bottle" look. But, the integrated bumpers just never looked right to me, and I never found the front-end of the '78-80 LeMans to be particularly attractive.

With the personal luxury coupes, I wasn't that crazy about any of them, but I think I liked the Cutlass Supreme the best. I think it was the switch back to single headlights on the Chevy/Olds/Buick that made me lose interest in them. Meanwhile, the Grand Prix was just too narrow to pull off that look with the turn signal in between the quad lights, and it looked awkward. Now, when they did the aero refresh for 1981, I thought they all looked good, and by then, I think my favorite was the Grand Prix.

One car I thought looked really nice, was the 1981 LeMans coupe. I really liked the slightly Firebird-esque front end they gave it that year.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/1981_Pontiac_Le_Mans_two-door_coupe,_frL.jpg/2880px-1981_Pontiac_Le_Mans_two-door_coupe,_frL.jpg

ab348

uplanderguy said:

On the Chevy and Buick '78 midsizes, I like how the upper-center instrument panel was pushed back to the windshield. It's wasted space, but I think it's a slight impression of roominess. The Pontiac and Olds did not do that, and some will say to better looks I know. I like the Chevy's optional cluster with round instruments, three-plane instrument pod, gloss black trim and gold pinstripe outlining...zero woodgrain. That changed in '80.

What I didn't like about the downsized A-body cars was that it was obvious that all 4 brands shared the same basic dash, as the passenger side was identical. Chevy and Buick had similarly-sized pods in front of the driver, Pontiac had the bigger pod with all the circles (which looked good to me at the time), and Olds had something that Consumer Reports said resembled a stereo receiver, which I thought was a good analogy. On the outside, I thought the '78-'80 Monte Carlo was hideous (C&D called it a "steaming pile"), the GP just a bit better but not great, and the Olds and Buick acceptable but still not as graceful as they should have been All that was cleaned up for '81with those two makes.

They really did take the downsizing much-further than the '77 full-sizes did.

Too far, I think in retrospect. The frames were thin, the bodies flexible, the transmissions and axles flimsy, and the trim inside just seemed to get penny-pinched. They got better over time but even today when I look at the interior of my buddy's '87 Grand National it just seems cheap.

I agree with @andre1969 that the refresh of the '81 LeMans with that Firebird-inspired front end was my favorite of all. Too bad the engine choices were so anemic by then.

(Firefox is back on strike against images, so the pic was posted using Chrome)

fintail

A crazy amount of color choices for those cars

Nice wheels on that Pontiac, too.

imidazol97 said:

I thought that was the case with multiple blues from when I saw a maroon Fintail at Covington's MainStrasse car show and looked up color charts.

tjc78

Is yours Horizon Blue or Light Blue ?

fintail

Mine is DB334, light blue.

tjc78 said:

Is yours Horizon Blue or Light Blue ?

uplanderguy

ab348, that '81 LeMans coupe does look great to me, especially with those wheels and in that two-tone and with no optional body side molding. I don't recall that color combo. Seems like most '81 LeMans models I remember were four-doors in the two-tone Light Jade over Dark Jade (that's what Chevy called it, anyway) that my '81 Monte Carlo was painted in.

That front seat in the pic looks like a four-door sedan bench seat.

I thought the '81 Malibu Classic received improved styling in the grille and taillights that year, although the V8 selection was terrible...267 or nothing, and it had a hood ornament which to me didn't go with the trim styling concept. To get the gauges, you had to get the awful expanse of bad (and I mean bad) woodgraining that the Monte Carlo had. The standard dash, with idiot lights, still had gloss black which I like and now included a large expanse of it above the glovebox and heater and radio pod.

I don't know why this bothers me, but for '78 and later, the "Malibu Classic" nameplates outside coupes and sedans had the 'Malibu' above 'Classic', but on wagons the words were right next to each other. The emblem on the dash of all models was the side-by-side design of the wagon exterior nameplates. I don't know why they did this in '79 and later coupes and sedans. The '78 instrument panel has no interior "Malibu Classic" nameplates, which I prefer.

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

ab348, that '81 LeMans coupe does look great to me, especially with those wheels and in that two-tone and with no optional body side molding. I don't recall that color combo. Seems like most '81 LeMans models I remember were four-doors in the two-tone Light Jade over Dark Jade (that's what Chevy called it, anyway) that my '81 Monte Carlo was painted in.

That front seat in the pic looks like a four-door sedan bench seat.

Around here, I tend to remember most '81 LeManses being either light blue, or some earth-tone color like a light brown or cream. Jadestone would have been a welcome change! For some reason, it seemed like Jadestone was all the rage in 1982, and then suddenly went away. Weird, how fast the trends can change.

And yeah, that '81 LeMans coupe does look like it has the sedan seat...Photoshop hadn't been invented yet, but you can tell there's some kind of trickery going on there. Airbrushing or something like that. I know in the 1981 Pontiac brochure, for the interior mockup of the 1981 Grand LeMans, it's sporting the C-pillar of the '78-80 style, that had the flip out vent in the roof rather than the back door.

ab348

The interior in that pic is very dubious - if you look close there does not appear to be a rear quarter window at all!

The one brochure I could find is not very helpful, but it appears GM made a product planning decision in '81 to limit what was offered in the LeMans/Grand LeMans. I cannot find anything that indicates you could get a coupe with buckets/console, for instance. Looks like column shift for all.

andre1969

I've noticed sometimes they'll do cost-cutting and other things like that in sales brochures. One thing that I thought was amusing, in the New Yorker brochure for 1980, they take the same shot of a midnight blue one that they used in 1979. However, the 1979 had the deep-dish turbine style hubcaps that you got with the optional 15x7 road wheels. For 1980, they superimposed a cheap, basic hubcap, that you could get on a Newport or even a Gran Fury.

Chrysler had a lot of issues back then, but I think sometimes it was little things like that, that were the ultimate slap in the face. I mean, could you imagine if GM offered the same hubcap on an Electra or Ninety-Eight that they did on an Impala?!

berri

Where are the Bavarian hats - oh wait, that would be BMW

xwesx

fintail said:

Those crazy Germans will tow anything with anything.

I am definitely cut from that mold!

benjaminh

uplanderguy

RE.: No buckets in '81 LeMans--I had to check, but they were still offered in an '81 Malibu Classic, below link. BTW, that black-over-light-jade two-tone is interesting and I don't think I ever saw one in person, although I don't know if I could live with it on a daily basis. My new '81 Monte Carlo was light jade roof and hood over dark jade everything else. I liked that a lot. At the time, I thought the '81 Monte Carlo was a big improvement over the previous year, and I liked that the taillights to me echoed the '74.

https://www.lov2xlr8.no/brochures/chevy/81mal/bilder/5.jpg

ab348

I remember seeing a Malibu 2-door of that vintage in the dark over light two-tone like in the photo, though whether it was jade or black/silver I cannot recall for certain.

Interesting about the buckets/console. If Malibu offered them then it had to be a decision by GM or Pontiac management to deny them to the LeMans customer. Odd.

imidazol97

In Fintail's collection of pictures, what are the 3rd and 5th cars.

@fintail


Larger gallery of pics here
https://oppositelock.kinja.com/2019-mbca-seattle-regional-show-shine-pic-heavy-1837155422

andre1969

ab348 said:

I remember seeing a Malibu 2-door of that vintage in the dark over light two-tone like in the photo, though whether it was jade or black/silver I cannot recall for certain.

Interesting about the buckets/console. If Malibu offered them then it had to be a decision by GM or Pontiac management to deny them to the LeMans customer. Odd.

It does seem odd, that Pontiac would kill the buckets/console in the LeMans, since I'm sure it was still offered in the Grand Prix. So, it seems to me that it wouldn't be that big of a deal to offer it with the LeMans, since both cars used the same dash, so the console, I'm presuming, would be the same as well. But, perhaps they figured it wasn't worth justifying offering the buckets in the LeMans seat pattern?

The LeMans in general was a fairly poor seller...it never really recovered from the first oil embargo, the way other midsized cars did. And in the wake of that oil crunch, midsized coupe buyers started flocking to the Grand Prix.

Off the top of my head, I think they sold around 100K units for 1975 (and that includes the Grand Am), 96K for 1976, and only 80K for 1977. You'd think the downsized cars would be a hit, but they only managed 120K for 1978, 136K for 1979, and I think the second fuel crisis dropped them down to around 85K or so in 1980 and 1981. And towards the end, coupes were a pretty small portion of an already small number.

imidazol97

I'm enjoying the discussions of cars from the past and I'm enjoying the pictures everyone has been posting/.

fintail

If I read that right, you are interested in the black car 3 cars back on the left row, and the black car with hood up 5 cars back?

If so, car 3 is an early 50s 220 (a sedan), car 5 is an early 50s 300 (Adenauer). I don't have access to all of my pics here so I don't have individual pics, but here are the cars beside each other at a prior meeting (300 in foreground, then 220):

imidazol97 said:

In Fintail's collection of pictures, what are the 3rd and 5th cars.

@fintail

ab348

The Grand Am was a funny car. When it was introduced the auto magazines loved it but the marketplace seemed to respond with a "meh". Maybe it was a price thing, I dunno. When the downsized version came out for '78 I thought it made a lot more sense size-wise and looked good too, better than the GP IMO, but again, it didn't sell. so it was done after 1980, though with the weak engines offered for '81 it wouldn't have made much sense anyway. Too bad.

uplanderguy

Pontiac always offered a lot of iterations of the LeMans in the '70's I think....LeMans Sport, Luxury LeMans, GTO, GrandAm, CanAm, GrandLeMans (replacing Luxury LeMans).

When the '73 Grand Am came out, I remember thinking, "Why?". The mags did love it and it was a GM performance sedan with buckets and console. Interior was Grand Prix.

I agree, the '78 Grand Am looked better than the '78 Grand Prix, but I never saw many of that generation of Grand Am at all. I remember seeing Grand Ams of this gen with bench seat and column shift. I'll have to look at the brochure to see if buckets were still available on the sedans then.