I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

berri

I think the Regal had the greenhouse similar to the Cutlass Supreme.

ab348

In the fall of ‘93 I was looking for a used car. I had my ‘64 Skylark convertible that I had bought in the spring of that year and really enjoyed as my first old-car experience. I used it all summer and as a result I didn’t use my ‘90 GTI much, so I sold it and was looking for an inexpensive used car.

I found the ‘68 Cutlass I now have in its rather neglected condition with dull paint and bias ply tires, but it really ran great and had lots of zip. I thought it was overpriced though so I kept looking. I saw a ‘76 Regal advertised so I went to look at it. Turned out it was the Florida car of the head of nursing at the hospital I worked at a few years before. They had sold that property and the car came back here. It was in beautiful condition, that medium brown/gold metallic you saw on a lot of ‘70s cars with a tan landau vinyl roof and tan velour interior. Just a very nice car with low mileage, I think 50k or so.

It drove fine and was quite posh inside. But the Buick 350 was absolutely gutless due to emissions controls, axle ratio or a combination thereof. The asking price was about the same for each. I called the fellow selling the Cutlass for his invalid sister and asked him what he would take for it. I told him I thought it wasn’t worth the $6K he was asking, and said that in its present condition it was only worth about half that much to me. He said “I’ll take $3000 for it” and we suddenly had a deal. Worked out for the best, but if the Buick only was a bit more peppy I know I would have gone for it instead.

uplanderguy

I see that '76 Century coupe with the opera windows has a "Landau" nameplate up there. I did see mention of a "Landau" vinyl roof in the '76 brochure, but you'd think they'd show a pic. I always wished Chevy would've done a '76 Malibu Classic with the triangular windows and no hood ornament. The fastback roof with opera windows left a big blind spot IMHO.

andre1969

ab348 said:

It drove fine and was quite posh inside. But the Buick 350 was absolutely gutless due to emissions controls, axle ratio or a combination thereof.

Probably a bit of both. I believe that for 1976, GM switched from an already fairly loafy 2.56:1 axle ratio to a 2.41:1 in most cars with engines in this size range. I'll admit, when I bought my '76 Grand LeMans, which has a Pontiac 350-4bbl, I wasn't overly impressed with its performance. I mean, I didn't get it to drag race in, but I just thought it would be a bit quicker. Like the Buick engine, Pontiac V-8s didn't take well to emissions controls either. At least, not as well as Olds and Chevy engines seemed to.

I always found it a bit odd that my '79 5th Ave, despite being a similar weight, similar displacement (360 vs 350...well technically, something like 354 if you actually do the math, but GM's marketing preferred you didn't do that!), similar axle (2.45 vs 2.41), and less hp (150 vs 175), the 5th Ave definitely feels quicker.

Years ago, I looked at a '79 Bonneville that a local guy was trying to get rid of. He was actually going to donate it, but said I could drive it and check it out if I was interested. It had the Buick 350, and by that time I think they were all choked-down 4-bbls with 155 hp. I was totally unimpressed. It actually wasn't in bad shape...rust-free, white with a blue vinyl top and blue vinyl interior. The headliner had sagged though, and he cut it into sections and used spray-mount to put it back up, so that looked a bit, umm...down scale. The interior was a bit dirty, but otherwise not bad. He said he tended to use it to haul mulch, topsoil bags, and such.

I probably would have considered it, if things were different at the time. But, that was back in 1999, before I had bought my 2000 Intrepid. I was using an '89 Gran Fury ex copcar as my daily transportation, and had my grandmother's '85 LeSabre as a spare car, and didn't really need another similar type car. Plus, at the time, it was too new to get historic tags for, so insurance would have been more expensive, it would have had to go through emissions, etc. I remember driving that Bonneville, it definitely felt more sluggish than the LeSabre, which just had the Olds 307. But, it was geared quicker (2.73:1 versus most likely another 2.41:1). First gear on the THM200R-4 was also something like a 2.74:1, whereas I think it was 2.52:1 on the THM350. And, despite being similar cars, GM shed a few hundred pounds from the B-body with the 1980 re-skin, so I'm sure that LeSabre was lighter than the Bonneville. And, of course, that Bonneville might have needed a tuneup, transmission service, etc...

roadburner

I saw a ratty 1974 Cutlass Supreme yesterday. I loved the Cutlass Salon and Grand Am when they were brand new- especially the four doors. The tighter suspension tuning coupled with a floor shift and bucket seats eradicated the "grandpa" car stigma of US sedans of that vintage.

uplanderguy

The tighter suspension tuning coupled with a floor shift and bucket seats eradicated the "grandpa" car stigma of US sedans of that vintage.

That was indeed almost unheard-of in the U.S. market at the time, although I'd subsequently learned about Studebaker Cruiser 4-doors with buckets and floor shift, and '63-64 Ford Galaxie 500XL four-door hardtops with the same.

I could never warm up to the '73-77 Colonnade four-door styling.

ab348 and andre commented on how the Colonnade coupes sounded when doors were closed and the window down....one thing I definitely remember about the four-door Colonnades was how stiffly-sprung the doors seemed--you felt a very definite detent position in a place or two when opening them, and they closed pretty solidly.

My friend's parents had a '76 Malibu Classic 'Colonnade Hardtop Sedan' in a dark blue metallic with factory silver vinyl top. It was loaded with options and at the time I thought the color combo was striking...still, it was a four-door.

benjaminh

benjaminh

uplanderguy

The Avanti was a love-it-or-hate-it design, but I like it and I do think it was unlike anything else offered at the time. Thanks for posting. Very nice '63 Bonneville and '64 Impala too!

benjaminh

bhill2

I have to say that at the time if I saw an Avanti and a GT Hawk parked side by side the Avanti might as well not even be there. I know the design was ancient by then, but that Hawk was just gorgeous.

benjaminh

uplanderguy

I love the Gran Turismo Hawk, especially the '64 with the denuded decklid and new-for-'64 wheelcovers. I'd take one over an Avanti too.

uplanderguy

Although....I'd want this particular Avanti more than any original Hawk. Estimate $100-125K. It is indeed next-to-last Studebaker Avanti built, as the last one is R-5643 and in the Crawford Museum in Cleveland, also a white automatic R3 but with black interior.

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/af19/auburn-fall/lots/r0320-1964-studebaker-avanti-r3/801227?fbclid=IwAR3dlK3fxY6SykDcAnYmJLvWB5eWIGP9CpLmzFbG0NQsWlXCaTHQ1pYtppA

explorerx4

@benjaminh,
Always amazed when the front trim lines up like it does on that yellow TBird.

fintail

Looks like someone visited LeMay

kyfdx

‘67 GTO coupe... maybe the best looking muscle car, ever.

Late ‘70s Fiat 124

benjaminh

A new car the year that I was born....

benjaminh

benjaminh

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

I could never warm up to the '73-77 Colonnade four-door styling.

I actually like it, because it seems so different compared to most of what was out there at the time. Almost futuristic, in how open and airy it was. Everybody else was going for thick C-pillars, small-ish windows, and a sealed-away feeling in general, but the Colonade sedans seemed to run contrary to that.

I do think it looks a bit odd on the '73 LeMans, partly because the rear deck sloped off so much that year. But with the rest of them, it doesn't bother me. However, one reason I might be partial to the sedans, is that, when "Smokey and the Bandit" hit the theaters and most normal kids wanted a black Trans Am, I was actually drawn to Sherriff Justice's '77 LeMans! At the time my Mom had a '75 LeMans coupe that I thought was pretty ugly, but I really thought the facelifted models with the rectangular quad lights looked really good.

ab348

A shot of my '77 LeMans I owned in the early '80s.

sda

1964 Cadillac DeVille, last of the fins. Nice

uplanderguy

RE.: Colonnade sedans--they were glassy and I like that...first Chevys that had a small quarter window behind the doors, since the '60's. I always felt they looked "stretched" though...guess I felt similarly about the '68-72 four-door midsizes at GM. They were on a longer wheelbase than the coupes, and looked like it. Sort-of the way I think the extended Trail Blazers of the '00's looked.

Purely guessing, but I always thought GM styled the coupes first and then did the sedans afterwards.

Andre, do you remember what I mentioned about the doors on Colonnade sedans? I remember how they opened, and sounded when shut, very distinctly as they were very different than any other car I can think of.

Very nice, older widowed lady who lived down the street from us, and who reminded me of 'Aunt Clara' on "Bewitched", traded her white '64 Biscayne four-door on a new '73 Chevelle Deluxe Colonnade Hardtop Sedan, white with black vinyl top, black vinyl interior, full wheel covers, blackwalls, 307, no radio. Unusually ordered.

andre1969

That's a really nice color combination, the white-over-light blue. I imagine that light colored interior wasn't too bad in the summer, either? Being Canadian, yours had a Chevy 305-2bbl, didn't it?

How did that engine feel, performance-wise? I mean, I'm sure it wouldn't win too many drag races, but did it feel adequate, at least? Did it feel better than that '76 Regal you looked at with the Buick 350?

I think one reason I like the style of the '76-77 LeMans so much (in addition to my childhood obsession thanks to Smokey and the Bandit), is that, in my opinion at least, it still tried to maintain a somewhat sporty, muscular look to it in an era where everyone else was going for the pretentious, upscale look. That front end focuses on having a low, wide look about it, in contrast to those upright grilles everyone else was going for.

uplanderguy

I always liked, and miss, white vinyl interiors with the contrasting carpet and seatbelts.

benjaminh

benjaminh

sda

I also liked white interiors with the contrasting trim, such as light blue and dark blue. As nice as white is it is nearly impossible to keep absolutely clean, i.e. white. It can look clean but there is always just a touch of soil that shows even after its cleaned. I've had several cars with white interiors.

The deep sculpted rocker panels on the '73-77 Cutlass were very prone to heavy chipping. Our '76 Cutlass Supreme wagon was no exception. It was a comfortable car with nicely firm, but somewhat plain, split bench front seat. While no hot rod, the Olds 350 4bbl made a nice sound with the typical Olds V8 sound and muted 4bbl moan. I remember it having an extremely tall 1st gear and would shift 1-2 around 55 mph.


Our 73 Grand Am Colonade, though older, had better ride and handling than the Cutlass wagon, but was a gas hog with the 400 2bbl, and I don't think any quicker than the Olds 350. The Grand Am frequently got 10 mpg or less while the Cutlass was more 12-13 mpg, and around 16-17 on the road. I don't know what mpg the Grand Am got on the road as it wasn't used for travelling.

I was going to bore you with pics, but can't seem to attach those that are saved on my Surface.

ab348

andre1969 said:

That's a really nice color combination, the white-over-light blue. I imagine that light colored interior wasn't too bad in the summer, either? Being Canadian, yours had a Chevy 305-2bbl, didn't it?

How did that engine feel, performance-wise? I mean, I'm sure it wouldn't win too many drag races, but did it feel adequate, at least? Did it feel better than that '76 Regal you looked at with the Buick 350?

I think one reason I like the style of the '76-77 LeMans so much (in addition to my childhood obsession thanks to Smokey and the Bandit), is that, in my opinion at least, it still tried to maintain a somewhat sporty, muscular look to it in an era where everyone else was going for the pretentious, upscale look. That front end focuses on having a low, wide look about it, in contrast to those upright grilles everyone else was going for.

That was an odd car for 1977 I suspect, as it was a factory 2-tone with a white painted roof over the light blue metallic lower body. I don't know how much longer that choice was available from the factory.

The white interior was very pleasant. It was the GM style at the time with a blue dash and carpets. You needed to clean the vinyl seats (at least the drivers side) fairly regularly but the look was well worth it. With no A/C ordered it helped keep it tolerable in the summertime.

It indeed was equipped with the Chevy 305/TH-350 combo. It seemed fine to me, reasonably peppy, about the same as Dad's '79 Impala with the same powertrain. Certainly it was better in that regard than the Regal I drove years later, which is probably why that stood out for me as being sluggish. Looking back, I wonder if the Regal had some other issue, like perhaps a catalytic converter getting plugged up or similar issue.

I understand why GM didn't do this ($$$), but I always thought the revised front end of the LeMans needed a revised rear end treatment to go with it, to square it up out back to some extent to better match the new front end styling.

andre1969

If you went a step up with the LeMans back then, I wonder if, in Canada, you got a Chevy 350 or a Pontiac 350? They didn't offer a Chevy 305 in the '76-77 LeMans down here. I looked up the specs for the '77 Chevelle with the 305, though, and it looks like a 2.73:1 was standard, 2.56:1 optional. So, I'd guess they'd offer that on a LeMans with the 305?

In the US, we were stuck with the 301 in that size range, although it was banned in CA/high altitude areas. The next step up was a 350...either a Pontiac unit for the 49 states, or an Olds unit elsewhere, although I'm sure the Olds engines got mixed and matched at random. Oddly, they cripled the 301, and even the Pontiac and Olds 350s, with the 2.41:1 axle. I'm sure there were optional ratios, but that's what was standard.

I'd imagine a 305 with the 2.73:1 axle might be similar in performance, perhaps even better, than one of those various 350s with the 2.41:1.

berri

My 76 Cutlass Supreme came with an Olds 350 4bbl. Not the quickest off the line, and more than than little, hesitation off the line as well, but once it was up in cruising speed range it was pretty smooth and responsive.

ab348

I found a ‘77 LeMans Canadian brochure online and they weren’t specific about the origin of the 350 engine. However it was interesting to see that the Safari wagon came standard with the 301 while other models got the 305. That may well mean that GM Canada in Oshawa didn’t build the wagons. I think it likely that the Canadian 350 was a Chevy engine given the long history of GM Canada building Pontiacs on Chevy chassis but I don’t know that for certain.

fintail

Today was the big annual MBCA Seattle gathering. Big turnout, close to 100 cars I think, maybe a record. More younger people than I've ever seen, which bodes well. As usual, the white fintail behind mine and my car were the only fintails there. Some obscure models, including the 170 cabriolet A, a nice 6.9 (late arrival, forgot to get a pic), 5-speed 280SL.

Larger gallery of pics here

Many people came up to me to talk about the car - the patina on the old dear is getting attention now, people can tell it isn't restored, but it isn't a ratty heap, which draws some interest. One story struck me as especially touching: older woman was talking about a grey fintail they had maybe in the late 60s or early 70s. Her young son kind of bonded with their car, and called it the "da da doom doom da" car (after the sounds in the Beatles song "From Me To You", which he listened to in the car). Eventually the car got old and they sold it on, but the kid didn't know until it was gone one day, and he was heartbroken. It seems a lot of people remember these cars clearly.

uplanderguy

It is nice when someone at a show or cruise-in bonds with your car. I love it when someone will walk past my Stude, look back, come back, walk around it, and then tell me "I haven't seen one of those in decades...what a nice car". I do like that it's not another '57 Chevy, Mustang, Chevelle SS396, etc.

I went to an Orphans show today about 30 miles away. Short notice so I didn't take my car. I was so pleasantly surprised to see a TON of Pontiacs there, including probably 15 or so '63-66 full-sizes, which are my favorite Pontiacs. Five '65 Grand Prixs, one of which was a tri-power 4-speed.

There was a beautiful, original '74 Cutlass Supreme coupe there, 8,105 miles, displayed by the original owners. Maroon with white Landau top and white vinyl bench seat; really a beautiful car. Husband seemed hard-of-hearing but the wife was a character and real talker. She said she worked in downtown Cleveland and never wanted to drive the car there, and her husband worked in a mill and didn't want to drive it to work so it became a Sunday-type car. Not as showy as other cars, but I love original. I told her that too and she said "Thanks for saying that and thanks for stopping by". I have pics but won't post; I took too many today. I asked where they bought it and she said "Earl Oldsmobile", which I remember, and she said "Remember? They'd advertise 'See Earl on Pearl' (Pearl Rd.)."

There was a '67 Marlin, the only year I'd be interested in, as only 2,545 built. Better-proportioned than the earlier ones, as it was built on the Ambassador chassis.

imidazol97

Thanks for the pictures. I enjoy looking at the cars even though I know little of the history or position of most.

roadburner

I was checking out a 370Z at a Nissan dealer and saw they had a relatively low mileage 1990 Mark VII LSC; I loved those cars.

tjc78

Love those LSCs as well.

fintail

If anything caught your eye that you'd like to know about, I can probably provide some info.

Regarding the 4 door Colonnade being futuristic, Hollywood agrees, as I am sure many remember the car in "Robocop":

imidazol97 said:

Thanks for the pictures. I enjoy looking at the cars even though I know little of the history or position of most.

benjaminh

uplanderguy

Four-door Colonnades--only Chevy did this, and it was unfortunate--if you bought a basic Chevelle (Deluxe or Malibu in '73, or Malibu from '74-77), you got no bright trim/gutters around the side window openings--in fact, even the two-doors were like this. I witnessed new cars that had bad workmanship and slop and goo visible there. Those moldings were sold optionally with the wheel opening moldings in a package on those cars, which had to be the absolute first thing I'd have had to order on one.

benjaminh

fintail said:

Today was the big annual MBCA Seattle gathering. Big turnout, close to 100 cars I think, maybe a record. More younger people than I've ever seen, which bodes well. As usual, the white fintail behind mine and my car were the only fintails there. Some obscure models, including the 170 cabriolet A, a nice 6.9 (late arrival, forgot to get a pic), 5-speed 280SL.

Larger gallery of pics here

Many people came up to me to talk about the car - the patina on the old dear is getting attention now, people can tell it isn't restored, but it isn't a ratty heap, which draws some interest. One story struck me as especially touching: older woman was talking about a grey fintail they had maybe in the late 60s or early 70s. Her young son kind of bonded with their car, and called it the "da da doom doom da" car (after the sounds in the Beatles song "From Me To You", which he listened to in the car). Eventually the car got old and they sold it on, but the kid didn't know until it was gone one day, and he was heartbroken. It seems a lot of people remember these cars clearly.

Thanks for the great pix.

What are the dimensions of your car in terms of length, width, and height?

berri

Up, my experience in the latter 70's was that my 76 Cutlass was better built than my 79 Monte Carlo. The 79 assembly quality was poor; windows didn't seal well, trim pieces were glued on and started falling off within a few months, gauge package was erratic with the gauges sometimes just dancing together. Maybe it just had to do with the assembly plant. The Olds was built in GA, while the Monte Carlo came from the KC area.

ab348

I got 11 Fintail pics in the set. :laughing:

uplanderguy

Could be.

My parents' '74 Impala was built in Wilmington, DE and it seemed to have better workmanship than our '77 Impala which was built in Janesville, WI, but the '77 was fairly early build (Oct. '76) and was a completely new car of course. I much-preferred driving and being seen in the '77. We had it early enough that people still asked me questions about it when I had it out-and-about.

My parents' '80 Monte Carlo, built in Baltimore, was well-assembled and had beautiful dark military green metallic paint with gold paint pinstripes. Worse thing I can say about it was I sliced my hand on the LR wheel opening molding on the inside when I was cleaning it. I have mentioned this before but one sloppy-workmanship thing on it that I was actually glad about, was that even though the car had no A/C, it had the chromed A/C vent on the far-right of the instrument panel, when it should have had the green plastic block filler there--which I detested on those cars. I had to show my Dad that no air actually came out of there, but it looked a lot better IMHO.

berri

That's OK; back in its day the Fintails stood out. Today many cars, including MB's often just kind of blend in.

uplanderguy

On those Colonnades without chromed roof gutters, the unfortunate thing was the sloppiness was visible right at eye-level. I remember one sedan where I could see a bit of a sponge piece sticking out of there. I'm sure it was delivered to the customer that way.

ab348

berri said:

Up, my experience in the latter 70's was that my 76 Cutlass was better built than my 79 Monte Carlo. The 79 assembly quality was poor; windows didn't seal well, trim pieces were glued on and started falling off within a few months, gauge package was erratic with the gauges sometimes just dancing together. Maybe it just had to do with the assembly plant. The Olds was built in GA, while the Monte Carlo came from the KC area.

Dad's '78 Grand LeMans Safari (or was it just Grand Safari?) was early model-year production so that likely had something to do with it, but it had terrible build quality and came out of GM's Baltimore plant. Off the top of my head the stick-on Di-Noc woodgrain was peeling upon delivery, the window regulator shafts were too long so the crank handles stood proud of the doors by about 3/4", the driver's door panel wouldn't attach properly to the inner door structure, the dash air vents did not work, it had the wrong trim piece on the passenger side dash (just said "LeMans"), the driver's door window glass fell into the door, the interior trim pieces between the rear door and the wagon area side glass didn't fit, and the engine would sometimes race to 3000rpm on a cold start. With more time the rear tailgate glass started rattling fiercely and the roof started rusting through where the roof rack screws were.

fintail

I don't have the car's spec sheet with me, but online I find claims of

L (wheelbase) = 2750 mm
(overall) = 4750 mm

W = 1795 mm

H = 1500 mm

They aren't huge cars, comparable to intermediate domestics of the day.

benjaminh said:

Thanks for the great pix.

What are the dimensions of your car in terms of length, width, and height?

benjaminh

fintail said:

I don't have the car's spec sheet with me, but online I find claims of
L (wheelbase) = 2750 mm
(overall) = 4750 mm
W = 1795 mm
H = 1500 mm
They aren't huge cars, comparable to intermediate domestics of the day.

benjaminh said:

Thanks for the great pix.

What are the dimensions of your car in terms of length, width, and height?

Translates to 187 inches long, 70.7 inches wide, and 59 high.


(for comparison my tlx = 190.7, 73, and 57. But my guess is your car has better headroom and legroom.)