1960's Oldsmobiles

Mr_Shiftright

Some brake drum systems were excellent. Corvair brakes are good even by modern standards.

speedshift

Here's some specs on full size drums...

'69 Pontiac 11" diameter front and rear.

FYI GTO, GP and Firebird drums were still the 9.5". Whoa Nelly.

'66 Buick 12". All but the Le Sabre had finned aluminum.

'63 Olds 11". No photo or description so I don't know if they were finned.

'62 Pontiac 11". That's the standard drum and it's not finned. However--and this is interesting--there's a "heavy duty" aluminum brake option for "ambulances and police cars" (sounds like it was available with the commercial vehicle or police package) that looks like the Buick finned front drums. HD rear drums aren't finned but look thicker and "are of special alloy heavy iron construction to control thermal expansion". 15" wheels required. Then there's the eight-lug wheel, an iron drum mated to a wheel that's not only finned around the diameter but has huge fins cast into the front.

'61 Chevy: 11". No mention of HD brakes but I know metallic linings had been optional prior to '61. Apparently Chevy was still using these brakes in '65 when the first SS 396 borrowed them. The next year the SS 396 regressed to the Nova 9.5" brakes.

Mr_Shiftright

From a 1949 Crosley. First American car to have them (they didn't work, but still...)

andre1969

...actually stronger than disk? At least, the first couple of stops before they start to heat up and fade?

The reason I'm making this presumption is that it's not that hard to stop a car with manual drum brakes, but with disk brakes, power assist is almost mandatory.

Well, there's another thing...drum brake shoes have more surface area than disk pads, so there's more to grab (and lock up!)

speedshift

I think it's the self-energizing design of drum brake that accounts for it working with less pedal pressure. The location of the brake shoe pivot point forces the shoes against the drum, and in addition the primary shoe pushes against the secondary, forcing it harder into the drum.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, that's why you have the "leading shoe" and the "trailing shoe" and why you shouldn't put them on backwards like they do at most chain stores.

andys120

to stop a Healey 3000, MGB or similar lightweight
front disc rear drum sports car with no power assist. In fact power-assist would take a lot away from the ability to threshold brake on these cars. It's a shame that today's drivers will never likely have the experience of driving lightweight cars with unassisted controls.

I wouldn't want to try stopping my old '70 Goat or any modern 4-disc setup without an assist tho.

parm

http://classiccar.carfrenzy.com/files/cc14077.html

Nope, it's not the car from Duffy's, but it's darn close. I'd never seen a maroon '65 Olds 98 convertible before the one at Duffy's. Now, here's another one. Go figure.

I've said it before, cars are like buses. If you miss one, another will come along. I just didn't think it applied in THIS particular instance.

Of course, this car lacks the waaaaay cool Olds Sport Disc wheels that I now consider a "must have" for this particular make/model/year of car. But, hopefully I could find a nice set - though I've been told by Olds aficionados that a nice set could cost as high as $1,000 (and that's if you can find'em).

Anyway, this car is located only 90 minutes from my house. That's good. But, the seller's asking price is a whopping $14,000. That's bad. Not for me, but for him. If, after an inspection, I found this car to be "worthy", I wouldn't give anything near that.

What do you all think?

speedshift

A grand for the sport hubcaps? I wonder what the similar Riviera spinners go for now? There's actual demand for Rivi spinners.

Looks promising but it's hard to tell much from the ad. It's burgundy, shiney and wherever the car is it's nice and green. Ask for receipts for the rebuilt engine and transmission and the paint. The miles can be guesstimated from the condition of the pedals and upholstery.

Mr_Shiftright

Same story here. You have to ascertain if the person really wants to sell the car (is truly motivated by something) or is fishing for an uninformed buyer to pay over retail. Best way to ascertain this is to completely ignore the asking price, go there with checkbook in hand, and if you like the car, start writing for the amount you are willing to give. Anyone who refuses a reasonably close offer of real money right there for a car of this type (crowds not exactly forming outside his house) is not motivated to sell. Waste of time, next car please.

parm

of that '65 Olds 98 convertible here in Indiana. It's definitely not the nice original that was at Duffy's. While it has the maroon exterior with black interior, it has a white (gag!) convertible top. The rear window is plastic (it's supposed to be glass). Thus, it's safe to say someone replaced the top with an incorrect one along the way. The car was reportedly repainted at some point. Didn't get photos of the engine or trunk.

There are other aspects of this car that aren't correct. To name a few, the sideview mirrors are wrong as is the dual exhaust with the pipes extending out past the rear bumper (that's just sad). The tonneau cover for when the convertible top is down is disturbing.

I'm probably being over picky having the one at Duffy's to compare it to. As a result, I'm not all jazzed about this car.

I told the seller that for $14,000 the car needs to be absolutely perfect and this car isn't. To that end, I politely gave the seller a list of what was not correct about this car and told them I thought the car was probably in the $5,000 to $6,000 range. The seller is an older couple and I suggested that at $14,000 they were perhaps trying to "test the water" with respect to what response they'd get. I told them as nicely as I could that when they got tired of waiting and were serious about selling to let me know.

isellhondas

Are you sure about that rear window?

I don't remember any of them being glass back then. I thought they were all plastic.

But I could be wrong?

andre1969

...back that far. What they did though, is made the glass about half as tall as the piece of clear plastic that would've otherwise been in there. IIRC, the clear plastic would extend all the way down to the metal on the rear deck, whereas the glass had a large spacer of roof material between the window and the deck.

parm

Yep, in 1965, it came off the factory line with glass in the rear window. 1965 was the first year for glass rear windows in GM full-size convertibles. However, I didn't know that the "glass" rear window was smaller than the "plastic" rear window as I've never actually seen the glass rear window on one of these. But, all of my factory documentation shows it was glass.

If the glass rear window was smaller than the plastic, then this makes sense (when you think about the folding going on during drop top operation) and is no doubt the case. Probably why some were replaced with plastic when the original wore out.

andys120

glass backlights showed up in Mustangs in '67 or '68. The were split in two to accomodate the fold.

Parm, wouldn't you really rather have a Buick?

parm

What does IIRC stand for? I've seen this abbreviation a few times now and should inquire as to what it is.

andre1969

..."If I Recall Correctly"

At least, that's what I've been using it for! I dunno, maybe it stands for something else too?

grbeck

...the first glass backlight on a convertible showed up on either the 1963 or 1964 full-size Fords.

badgerpaul

My '66 Impala had a glass rear curtain. It sounds like somebody cheaped out on that 98 when they replaced the top.

wale_bate1

That's it! Thanks for the path here!

My '65 was my Dad's. Gave it to me in '79 when I went to college.

Mine was fire engine red (R1) with red interior and white top. I remember better looking hub caps though.

FTR: mine had a factory glass rear curtain too. Mom's '62 Caddy's was plastic. Why do I remember? Because one of my chores was to Mirror Glaze Mom's once a month!

Best feature: Wonder Bar! Hours of fun with an AM radio. Who'd've thunk?!

442crazy

Hey Guys-

I am going crazy trying to document our 65 Olds 442. I have alot of numbers, and just when I think I have all of them figured out, I get a new piece of advice, and it messes with my information.
Can anyone decipher this for me?
The door plate number is this:
33827 5Z120406

I know that the 3, is Olds. The 38 means F85 Cutlass. And the 27 is a 2DR Club Coupe. On the next set, the 5 is 1965. The Z is Fremont, CA. And the 120406 is the sequential production number.

My problem starts with the Engine Plate number. It is structured like this:
4B
ST 6533827 BODY BF2925
TR 940 10 PAINT LL L
ACC 25407

I was going along great, in the process of rebuilding the 442 with my husband, when all of the sudden, he comes up with a website from somewhere, which states that all 442 models have to have 4V not 4B on the engine plate.

Also, the engine in this car is a 425. I know that was not standard on the 442, but it was an available option.

Can anyone help with these numbers?

442 Crazy in Alabama

wq59b

4B- this is your car's time built code: "4"- 4th month (April), "B"- 2nd week. It has nothing to do with indicating whether it's a 442 or not; all GMs of this period have this coding.

ST 6533827- "ST" = body style. this is a 'restatement' of part of your VIN: a '65 Olds Cutlass 2-dr sedan (sometimes called a 'pillared coupe').

BODY BF2925- this is the body plant's sequential body number, NOT meant to match the VIN and of no 'value' to the number-cruncher hobbyist. "BF" is the data plate code for the Fremont plant.

TR 940 10- 'TRIM': Interior upholstery/color code. The "10" refers to the seat type (for ex: buckets, buckets with headrests, bench, etc)

PAINT LL L- exterior color code. "LL" indicates a one-tone body (no vinyl top) and matching-colored steel wheels (the last "L").

ACC 25407- an option code. In my experience, GM data plate option codes are ususally "5N" or the like, I haven't encountered any 5-digit option codes before.

Sorry I could better decipher this for you- I don't have a lot of Olds-specific info on hand.

I can verify for you that the 425 was NOT available in the A-body (F-85/ Cutlass/ 442). The first time any engine over 400 cubes was available wasn't until the Hurst Olds got the 455 in '68. There MAY have been a handful of dealer-installed 425s in 442s- but you'd need original documentation to prove it wasn't just a transplant.

ghulet

link:

http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofblk.htm#Big%20Block%20Blocks%201965%- - - - 20-%201976

I can't find it now, but somewhere I saw that the 4B identification means 400 engine on 4-4-2, 1965 only. The 425 was never optional on the 4-4-2, as GM had the self-mandated 400 cubic inch limit on their intermediates, at least until about 1968.

isellhondas

Never a 425 in a '65 442.

Mr_Shiftright

Ultimately, you can never accurately document a car without the original build sheet. You can reach a certain point of certainty but you can't prove anything without factory data or an original sales sheet with option list. This, plus previous owner's testimony, is what we call "provenance".

Anything you can point to on a car can be very accurately reproduced or switched from another car, with the possible exception of casting numbers (which are raised, not stamped) and even with those counterfeiters are getting pretty good at it.

And now, even factory build sheets are being sold to your specification.

While your car is not one a professional counterfeiter would build, an amateur might try to build a clone of some sort.

So I'd say do the best you can with it and leave it at that. The value of your particular car will be based mostly on the quality of your work, not the documentation. Whether it is "real" or not is not a big deal in this case.

argent

GM did not revoke the 400-cid limit for A-body intermediates until the 1970 model year. There were a few over-400 cars, but they were done through corporate loopholes -- the 427 Camaros were done on a "COPO" (special corporate office purchase order) as a private arrangement between a couple of Chevy dealers and Vince Piggins, for example. The Hurst/Olds of '68-'69 were alleged to have been shipped with the 400 engine with the 455 transplant made by Hurst; they were actually fitted with the 455 on the assembly line, but that was not revealed until years later (and it ain't what they told management).

442crazy

Thanks for all the information guys. I did some more checking with Oldsmobile direct, as well as Oldsmobile of America club. I found out that you could get an original 425 from Oldsmobile in 1965, even though the ban was in place from Olds. If something went wrong with the 400, when the factory replaced the engine, it replaced it with a 425. Both OCA and NADA agree on this. NADA even lists it as an option in their classic cars price guide.
You guys helped with my biggest problem though, the '4V' versus '4B' issue. So basically, those two digits have nothing to do with whether or not the car is a 442.
Thanks again for all your help guys.

442 Crazy

Mr_Shiftright

I think you are making some very questionable assumptions here, if you don't mind me cautioning you.

I don't think that's what NADA says and I'm not sure what OC is talking about either. The option listing in the NADA guide clearly applies to the full size cars in the guide, it says nothing about the 442 per se. I'm lookin' right at it here.

If the dealer was installing 425s as replacement engines for defects then it is not a factory option, nor it is an "original engine" that came with the car. However, one can argue that it is a factory-authorized replacement block. Fair enough!

 But cars with defective engines certainly didn't go back to the factory, and it seems like a stretch to presume that if a 400 tested bad at the factory they'd just plug in a 425??? Sez who, and with what proof of such a strange goings-on?

I think you still aren't any closer with this issue.

As for your confusion on the plate numbers, the plate you are reading is not an engine plate, but the "Body Number Plate".

So what's your engine number, taken from the right cylinder head?

Let's see...your car decodes as a Turquoise body/black interior/sport coupe with 442 option. Does that sound right?

My opinion is that you do not have the original engine in that car, based on no compelling evidence to the contrary.

However, as I stated, I don't think it affects value very much, especially on a '65 coupe. If it were a later W-30, this would be more of a problem.

isellhondas

And, in those days, if there was a problem with an engine, the dealerships would REPAIR the problem and not replace the engine like they do now.

But, I'm curious as to how the owner knows it's a 425 and not a 400? Didn't they look alike?

If it is, in fact, a 425, it is highly doubtful it came that way since it wasn't an option.

Mr_Shiftright

that's why I wanted to know the prefix and numbers off the deck on the right cylinder head.

Actually, you know, if they do a nice job on the car, it probably won't even matter if it's not the right engine. This is a coupe and a '65, it's not a W-30 and doesn't pull the big money. So the car will speak for itself regardless of authenticity.

I would rather hope people would just forget about this matching number nonsense and enjoy their cars. These are not hand-built french poodle cars, they are sturdy 60s cars meant to be driven and enjoyed.

blh7068

"Ultimately, you can never accurately document a car without the original build sheet."

Thats true...but sometimes even the build sheet is wrong. My 71 firebird's build sheet states the block code is XX but its really a YX...checked the block date code and the portion of the VIN stamped on the block..it all matches up.

ndance

"And, in those days, if there was a problem with an engine, the dealerships would REPAIR the problem and not replace the engine like they do now."

You know, that's a really good question to bring up. I agree that it would have been much more practical to fix even pretty heinous problems in days of yore rather than replace a short or long block...but I've seen a heckuva lot of dealer installed replacement engines in muscle cars through the years. (I'm thinking, what?, CE codes on Chevy's?...1971 Boss 302 blocks...etc.).

I wonder what the replacement rate was?

Another area I was musing about was repaints. It's amazing how many 60 and 70's cars have repaints, a lot of times just to spruce the car up I imagine...these days, it's pretty hard to justify the 3-5k (just as a flyer) that this would cost. I expect in 15 years, you'll see quite a few shabby y2k cars, as people let this sort of thing go.

Mr_Shiftright

Actually the build sheet isn't technically "wrong", since XX and YX and interchangeable terms--same engine.

Repaints, etc: Unfortunately you may be right. Any car that doesn't start to pull strong money as a collectible will probably deteriorate and be junked, because it will get more and more expensive to restore them as time goes on. But really, it's always been like this with old cars. If you look at 50s and 60s restorations (that is, done in the 50s and 60s) they are pretty down and dirty.

One partial solution would be to stop restoring these cars to standards that are ten times better than the way the factory slammed them together in the 1960s. Overspray and orange peel were factory standard, so I don't see why you have to put on a $7,500 paint job. Just do some neat taping and decent body work. These 60s domestics were built as working class utility/enjoyment vehicles primarily, not as coachbuilt cars for the rich.

When I see a '57 Chevrolet with velvet ropes around it, I want to...well...nevermind....

I tip my hat to anyone who takes a collectible car out on the road and bangs it up a little having fun.

blh7068

"Actually the build sheet isn't technically "wrong", since XX and YX and interchangeable
terms--same engine"

Yes...both blocks share the UPC as the L-65 400(early-mid 70s at least)

Forgive me if I sound naive...

If the build sheet identifies the listed codes to that particular vehicle, then why wouldn't my build sheet indicate that it is YX and not XX ?

Since they are both the same, what's the point in having 2 block codes?

Mr_Shiftright

I dunno..the books often show them as XX "or" YX, or "xx,yx", as if it could be either/or take your pick. No other codes have this double entry.

wq59b

blh7068-- There is no YX code for '71; it first appears for '72. The '72 YX shares the same cam (#555), CR (8.2), carb (different #s but same specs) & trans attachment (automatic) as the '71 XX, but used the new #7J2 cylinder head vs. the #99 on the XX- and that's the reason for the code change. Both the XX and YX were the mildest-tuned 400s in those years- having but 265 HP net in '71, 200 in '72.

It's very possible that PMD substituted the 7J2 head for the 99 (and therefore the code changed) BEFORE the actual model year production change over, which could explain the matching VIN on your block. What is the time-built code for your 'bird?

blh7068

Actually I have found a few sources(here on the net) that do indicate YX as correct for 71.

Block date code is B051 with the car build date as 03/71. So the switchover you mentioned would have taken place pretty early in that model year. But thanks for the info.