I gotta tell ya, this guy goes back and forth on so many issues it's like watching a ping-pong match. Still, he certainly has revitalized this discussion group.
You don't suppose that Edmunds has conjured up this character to stimulate activity on this board, do you? I mean, how can one person be so naive and misguided on sooooo many different issues? There must be a whole squad of people behind Randpall3863. Too many fantastic stories for only one mind to create.
Strangely, I'm somehow attracted to his extraordinary comments with his next post being even more bizarre than his last. Kind of like watching the Sci-Fi Channel.
No, he can't be confused by the original MSRP on a Marquis Brougham because that was $10,900.
Kelley Blue Book currently lists the wholesale (auction) price of a 1985 Mercury Brougham at $850, so KBB and the owner here are some distance apart.
Randpall, I don't see where the Ford Motor Company would know anything about the value of their used cars. It's not their business, and I don't see why their personnel would be trained in tracking used car values or "collectible status".
What Ford MIGHT know (not always) is how many were made, options lists, etc.
But current pricing and collectibility status is OUR business, not Ford's.
You simply cannot dismiss 8 price guides and 4 auction companies as "ignorant". That is not a very credible argument for you.
By the way, what do you care what your car is worth as long as you like it?
in the used car, collectible car or classic car business. The market decides what any old car is worth, not Ford, not Waldenbooks and not some deluded owner.
Unless and until you show us some evidence of actual sales at or near the prices you are talking about we'll remain unconvinced.
Nevertheless I appreciate your amusing contribution to revitalizing the classic car board.
I actually did see an article about a year ago on Pacers. They claimed they were coming into collectible status with the resurgence of the retro 70's fad. Or was that the Gremlin they were talking about? No matter... same idea.
Oh, today's youth have a different sense of style and its effect on value, and no two ways.
A co-worker who is 22 came in one morning ecstatic over having found a car at long last. She had been looking used and I had thrown in my two cents on Proteges, Sentras and Saturns, so I was interested.
She said it was in the lot and I just had to come see! I walk outside expecting to see an SE-R or an SC2 and what, to my utter dismay, does she point to? A burgundy '84 Aries K. She said, "Don't you just LOVE it?" I just bit my lip and nodded. Who was I to argue with such explosive enthusiasm?
I read an article last year on the collectibility of that 70s junk. It's a generational thing to which I can only say I'm glad I'm old enough to remember what cars were like before the 70s.
Oh, they're just talking about some kids buying a cheap 70s car and playing with it. Which is *great*, since they are plentiful and affordable. Buy that's a long way from ground-up restorations, and clubs and magazines forming around things like Ford Granadas. Not bloody likely.
We are talking here about 'collecting' in the ordinary sense of the word, as in "gathering up".
People still "collect" 57 Studebaker sedans or '46 Chevrolet 4-doors, but these cars still aren't valuable and hardly rate a glance at auctions and car shows. They are more like entry-level hobby cars, not the same as a true collectible or classic.
If there were not '57 Chevy convertibles or supercharged Studebaker Hawks around, maybe these old and dumpy 4-doors would get more attention. But there are lots of interesting and significant older cars around to compete for dollars and attention, and some cars just end up the losers in the fame and fortune game.
I got my license in the '70s. It was definitely a bad time. It was so disheartening to have nothing to look forward to because the cars were getting worse every year, not better. I used to think I would never own anything made after 1970.
andy - I was having the same thought this weekend when I saw a group of a dozen guys standing around in a parking lot around an equal number of Datsun station wagons from the '70s. Obviously, it was some kind of Datsun Station wagon club having a meet. I was wondering if there was any car that didn't have enough of a following to have some sort of club.
I referred earlier to both the 1985 Marquis Brougham's standard 5-speed manual transmission with overdrive and the Explorer's 5-speed automatic with overdrive. I did not say the 1985 Marquis Brougham came with a 5-speed automatic with O/D. Stop your lying now! I have had it!
I saw you are into helping out with books that print prices for cars. Do they first check with the automobile manufacturers? Or do they go by their own assumptions? It is what I have seen. And so have car manufacturers. But according to you, you are right and they are wrong. Get real!
Actually, car manufacturers know more about cars than you do. It includes their true retail cost. It is whether new or used. But you are too proud to admit you are wrong. I did for you.
randall - I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. Believe it or not, everyone is trying to help you out here. No one here has any motivation to lie to you. The information you are providing goes against everything that we can find on the subject, You keep saying that you have information sources that prove your point yet you expect everyone to just take your word for it. If you would tell us what the real sources of your information are, we could verify them and try to figure out why there is such a huge disparity between them and the more commonly acknowledged pricing guides.
&;&;I point out what I know. It is through a lot of research. I give my sources. But I am told my sources and I are wrong. And they are right.
&;&;It seems to me it is the other way around. I may not be employed in that area. It is not to say I do not know what I am talking about.
&;&;I see too many in here being misled. It includes the host. I see too many in here too proud to admit I am right. And they are wrong.
&;&;To do so would mean being humble. I did not just come in here to be helped. But I also came in here to help. But all I get is ignored. And I get my words twisted. Why is it? It is since I am right. And the ones who are wrong will not just admit they are. It is ego and false pride that seems to prevent it. I notice that.
&;&;I love it when someone acts I here like they know more than an car manufacturer. I laugh at that. It is since I know better.
&;&;I have not seen anyone in here yet who works for the manufacturers to whom I made reference to. But I have seen a lot in here who think they know more than them. Wrong! I said it.
&;&;As I said, I did not come in here to argue. But my buttons have been pushed. I have had it!
&;&;All I see in here is a battle of the egos. I do not see that as helping. I see it as hurting. And it is deliberate.
&;&;I admit I do not know everything. But I do know enough. I would like to know. Who in here "knows it all"? Nobody.
&;&;I will ask if I do not know something. And I will state what I do know. In fact, I have asked since being in here. It is about cars from the 1960's. But it did not get answered. Mr. Shiftright was too busy trying to prove he was right. And car manufacturers and I are wrong. It is to protect his image. It is so he does not have to admit when he is wrong.
&;&;He may think I would think less of him if he did. Actually, it is the opposite. I would be able to then trust and respect him. I can not unless he does. I am done for now.
No, you have not given your sources. You have made vague references to some book you saw at Waldenbooks, someone you talked to at Ford, someone you talked to at GM, etc. None of these is verifiable without more detail.
I have also had it with your sarcasm and attitude with me! Am I clear?
All you have to do is admit you were wrong with me. It is about my car. After that, I will listen to you about the cars I asked you about.
You try to act like you know it all. And you continue to remain unteachable. I would be in trouble if I acted like you do. I would feel lonely. Fortunately, I do not. I will state what I do know. And I will ask when I don't know.
We are in here to learn from and teach each other. It is not just to learn from you. But you can learn from us. It is if you keep an open mind. It is if you get humble and honest.
I do not want us to be at odds with each other. But I will stand my ground when I am right. It is like now. I am no doormat for you or anyone else in here. I hope I'm clear.
So, anybody catch the Barrett-Jackson on TV? Talk about being a kid in a candy shop.
I get a kick out of Keith Martin's (love his Sports Car Collector Magazine) comments which are virtually the same with every year's broadcast. "The collector car market is strong and these early year sale prices are setting the tone for the rest of the market." Seriously, you can play the tape year after year.
While I have a lot of respect for Keith Martin, I still think Barrett-Jackson and the few other "trophy" auctions have little bearing on the values of cars that most of can afford and thus represents the bulk of the market. I could dead wrong, but the cars sold at Barrett-Jackson (which are best of the best) and the prices they command are so out of reach for most of us - at least me.
I would agree that probably Barrett-Jackson impacts values at the upper end of the value market $50,000 to $100,000 and more.
But, for a '68 Bonneville convertible? I have my doubts.
I was watching it. I get hooked on it. One of the things that struck me was one of my favorite cars of all time, a Maserati Ghibli Spyder, going for around $90K. Immediately following that was a Yenko Chevelle that went for $125K! I know that the Yenko Chevelles are extremely rare. Well, I know that now. Before that I only ever heard of Yenko Camaros and Vegas. But it seems to me that it is still nothing more than a a Chevelle with a big motor and some other fine tuning. It just doesn't seem right that something like that can be worth more than a exotic car like a Ghibli.
Comments
If so, Andre is a millionaire!
Andre - what was MSRP on that Marquis when new, any idea?
You don't suppose that Edmunds has conjured up this character to stimulate activity on this board, do you? I mean, how can one person be so naive and misguided on sooooo many different issues? There must be a whole squad of people behind Randpall3863. Too many fantastic stories for only one mind to create.
Strangely, I'm somehow attracted to his extraordinary comments with his next post being even more bizarre than his last. Kind of like watching the Sci-Fi Channel.
Go man (men?). Go!
Used car MSRP eh? Just call the manufacturer with the VIN and the condition and they will tell you the MSRP. I'm dying laughing at this one.
Kelley Blue Book currently lists the wholesale (auction) price of a 1985 Mercury Brougham at $850, so KBB and the owner here are some distance apart.
Randpall, I don't see where the Ford Motor Company would know anything about the value of their used cars. It's not their business, and I don't see why their personnel would be trained in tracking used car values or "collectible status".
What Ford MIGHT know (not always) is how many were made, options lists, etc.
But current pricing and collectibility status is OUR business, not Ford's.
You simply cannot dismiss 8 price guides and 4 auction companies as "ignorant". That is not a very credible argument for you.
By the way, what do you care what your car is worth as long as you like it?
Unless and until you show us some evidence of actual sales at or near the prices you are talking about we'll remain unconvinced.
Nevertheless I appreciate your amusing contribution to revitalizing the classic car board.
Who's next, the guy with the classic AMC Eagle?
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
A co-worker who is 22 came in one morning ecstatic over having found a car at long last. She had been looking used and I had thrown in my two cents on Proteges, Sentras and Saturns, so I was interested.
She said it was in the lot and I just had to come see! I walk outside expecting to see an SE-R or an SC2 and what, to my utter dismay, does she point to? A burgundy '84 Aries K. She said, "Don't you just LOVE it?" I just bit my lip and nodded. Who was I to argue with such explosive enthusiasm?
I pray they never get that bad again.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
We are talking here about 'collecting' in the ordinary sense of the word, as in "gathering up".
People still "collect" 57 Studebaker sedans or '46 Chevrolet 4-doors, but these cars still aren't valuable and hardly rate a glance at auctions and car shows. They are more like entry-level hobby cars, not the same as a true collectible or classic.
If there were not '57 Chevy convertibles or supercharged Studebaker Hawks around, maybe these old and dumpy 4-doors would get more attention. But there are lots of interesting and significant older cars around to compete for dollars and attention, and some cars just end up the losers in the fame and fortune game.
There doesn't seem to beany car so bad that someone, somewhere won't "collect" it.
I hope we haven't scared off the Marquis Brougham guy.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
http://www.fordpinto.com/
http://members.aol.com/brettjh/f-bodymopar/main.html
Maybe they brag about fuel economy or reliability. Or how every year and model looks the same. That sounds real exciting.
Actually, car manufacturers know more about cars than you do. It includes their true retail cost. It is whether new or used. But you are too proud to admit you are wrong. I did for you.
I am sick of constantly repeating myself. So, I will not anymore. There is more.
You say, "All we are doing is trying to help." If you were, you would listen to what I am saying. You choose not to. What else can I do?
I said it before and say it again. I do not want to argue. But my buttons have been constantly pushed. I have had it!
&;&;It seems to me it is the other way around. I may not be employed in that area. It is not to say I do not know what I am talking about.
&;&;I see too many in here being misled. It includes the host. I see too many in here too proud to admit I am right. And they are wrong.
&;&;To do so would mean being humble. I did not just come in here to be helped. But I also came in here to help. But all I get is ignored. And I get my words twisted. Why is it? It is since I am right. And the ones who are wrong will not just admit they are. It is ego and false pride that seems to prevent it. I notice that.
&;&;I love it when someone acts I here like they know more than an car manufacturer. I laugh at that. It is since I know better.
&;&;I have not seen anyone in here yet who works for the manufacturers to whom I made reference to. But I have seen a lot in here who think they know more than them. Wrong! I said it.
&;&;As I said, I did not come in here to argue. But my buttons have been pushed. I have had it!
&;&;All I see in here is a battle of the egos. I do not see that as helping. I see it as hurting. And it is deliberate.
&;&;I admit I do not know everything. But I do know enough. I would like to know. Who in here "knows it all"? Nobody.
&;&;I will ask if I do not know something. And I will state what I do know. In fact, I have asked since being in here. It is about cars from the 1960's. But it did not get answered. Mr. Shiftright was too busy trying to prove he was right. And car manufacturers and I are wrong. It is to protect his image. It is so he does not have to admit when he is wrong.
&;&;He may think I would think less of him if he did. Actually, it is the opposite. I would be able to then trust and respect him. I can not unless he does. I am done for now.
I hope, dgraves, this is clear enough for you! I should not have to tell you again. Am I clear? I had better be!
I have had enough of egos running riot in here! It is especially toward me. Find someone else to do it to. I have had enough!
All you have to do is admit you were wrong with me. It is about my car. After that, I will listen to you about the cars I asked you about.
You try to act like you know it all. And you continue to remain unteachable. I would be in trouble if I acted like you do. I would feel lonely. Fortunately, I do not. I will state what I do know. And I will ask when I don't know.
We are in here to learn from and teach each other. It is not just to learn from you. But you can learn from us. It is if you keep an open mind. It is if you get humble and honest.
I do not want us to be at odds with each other. But I will stand my ground when I am right. It is like now. I am no doormat for you or anyone else in here. I hope I'm clear.
What is the name of the book that we can find at Waldenbooks? We need a title here.
With whom did you speak at Ford Motor Company? We don't need a name here really, but a title will suffice.
Until you can furnish those two pieces of info, you really haven't given us anything concrete.
I get a kick out of Keith Martin's (love his Sports Car Collector Magazine) comments which are virtually the same with every year's broadcast. "The collector car market is strong and these early year sale prices are setting the tone for the rest of the market." Seriously, you can play the tape year after year.
While I have a lot of respect for Keith Martin, I still think Barrett-Jackson and the few other "trophy" auctions have little bearing on the values of cars that most of can afford and thus represents the bulk of the market. I could dead wrong, but the cars sold at Barrett-Jackson (which are best of the best) and the prices they command are so out of reach for most of us - at least me.
I would agree that probably Barrett-Jackson impacts values at the upper end of the value market $50,000 to $100,000 and more.
But, for a '68 Bonneville convertible? I have my doubts.
I'm waiting for someone to come clean here...
Anyway, we are just going around in circles, be it for real or in ject, so why don't we wind this topic up?
thanks,
Shifty the Host