Dindak, you raise a good point. Sure the Accord's V-6 may be better than the Chevy in some areas, but at what cost? It is better to get 95% of the refinement at 85% of the price. Chevy publicy stated that was their goal to begin with.
So far Edmunds and MT have put the 'Bu towards the bottom of the competition. While the high end division Caddy did great, GM's calander year sales were down 2%. The new Vette,SSR, GTO are great offerings but are low volume models. The heart of sales: family sedans (small, med. and large) are all doing poorly in all divisions. The 'Bu, Nox, MiniVans, Aveo, Cobalt are all just OK. When you compare them to their competition, none will finish in the top half. There's 9M people out of work and the rest of the average Joe's are worried if they're next. These are the people who buy the meat and potato models and they want the best value/quality. Just OK doesn't cut it and won't get you back market share. The 3.5L and the planned 3.9L are just OK. I want better then that and it seems the majority of buyers do also.
Keep in mind, MT actually liked the Malibu a lot. They rated it over the Camry. They said it had "excellent build quality", and it had excellent engine power and excellent fuel mileage. They also liked how many features it offered for the price.
They also criticized the Camry for being too expensive and having a dull interior.
joey- Cobalt is not even on the market and already you know how it compares to the rest of the market?
"When you compare them to their competition, none will finish in the top half." In what, sales? Even the Cavalier sold over 256k in 03. Behind only the Civic and Corolla (barely).
Reg-you don't like push rods? I never would have guessed. Get over it. Move on already. I agree with most of your points but GM is not going to drastically change their engine line up anytime soon. Go drive the Bu already, it may not be as bad as you think.
Like the comment in #503, I really do not know the difference between OHV and OHC. Could someone provide a pointer to some information or provide a high level description of the difference for those of us not as ignorant about car engines but are willing to learn.
You can't deal with GM loosing market share. I'm saying the 'Bu brought nothing new to the table. Nox has engine short commings. Aevo is a cheap Daiwoo, a company that went belly up, the minivans are getting bad comments for lack of power and lack of features, bland styling. True I guess there's some hope for Cobalt. IMO, I don't see these models turning Chevy around. Saturn's still bleeding red ink. You're also making some total year end sales forcast numbers on models from autosite.com without facts. That's the fantasy. Please give us your sales forcast for '04. Pointless I guess. All we have to help save '04 is 'Bu and Nox. So I guess the sales slide will continue.
joey : Have to disagree with you buddy.. new Chevy product looks pretty darn good. Have you even driven a Malibu or sat in an Aveo?? Even the biggest GM bashers think Cobalt is a big winner. Sure the engine in the NOX isn't the best but that hasn't stopped other great looking vehicles like the PT Cruiser from selling.
Reg : I knew you'd drag the old OHC story back within a day. It's in your blood, it's an addiction. ;-)
theo : That's about it, 85 for 95. If people will get in and try a Bu, sales should continue to grow.
well, my last 6 cars have all had overhead cam. 3 of those 6 have been double overhead cam. You tend to not want to go below that level once you've had it. I know you've said you don't really mind but after having an Intrigue it's tough to fathom accepting less.
I still remember the day I was shopping with my wife at the chevy dealer and were choosing between the Prizm and Cavalier. The Prizm was smaller and more expensive. We drove both. The Prizm's powertrain was smaller but a lot better in all aspects. So much so that even my wife in a couple of 5 minutes test drive noticed the huge difference, in overall refinement of the car and mostly engine performance (she commented specifically on it even if she didn't know why). She wouldn't have anything to do with the Cavalier.
And every time I get in my father in law's Olds with 3800 its like going back in a time warp twenty years because the thing is so not up to snuff. Or all the Impalas, Bonnevilles, Regals, Rivieras, Grand Prixs and the likes I have test drove just didn't do it. Neither did the rental 03 bu i had this summer.
But the time I took out the Intrigue it 'intrigued' me....why? Shortstar.
I'll still try to take out a bu soon. Just need a free saturday. Even if I like how it drives, I still can't get over the looks and interior cheese.
The Cobalt looks promising. The Aveo is nice but that doesn't surprise me since it wasn't created in the hallowed halls of detroit.
I wish the Bu could have looked like the Opel counterpart, but GM has to give an Epsilon model to every division. Who would buy a 9-3 if the Bu looked as good as the Opel?
My guess is that the Aveo will have no problem selling the 70k that GM hopes.
The Nox is a little lacking in the engine dept. but should easily outsell the Tracker.
I also think the Bu and Maxx should do at least as well as the old Malibu.
Joey- I get my sales figures from Automotive News. They publish sales numbers as given to them by the manufacturers.
I under valued a car that I didn't think was selling so well. Maybe you and the analysts can explain why GM with hundreds of models, five divisions (I consider Olds long dead) only concentrated on Caddy last year? Saab did great but it's easy to double sales when you go from 1 model (9-5) to two. Didn't Buick try to sell a re-badged Opel in the late '70's, it fail and GM doesn't try to reuse it's international resources again until the Holden GTO project this year? No they can't get around 29% in '04 because I don't think they can even hold it with this mix of new products. Come back with your stats next January and then we'll talk.
but beating tracker and the classic 'bu numbers is not much of an aspiring goal. Plus we know Regal, Lesabre, Bonneville, minivan, Saturn L series are a few examples of dying models. (There's probably a few more.) Vue did a good job increasing sales finally after 2 model years, but 81K is still at least 30K off CRV and Escape. Just as you mentioned, I [non-permissible content removed] because GM had some good models that could have been home runs and screwed them up by not using styling and powertrains that they already had in their inventory.
"You tend to not want to go below that level once you've had it"
I've driven some pretty rude DOHC engines also. 3.5L in the Bu is not a 3.1L. Nothing "cheesy" about the interior of the Malibu either (unless you don't understand the word). Now the last generation Taurus, that has cheese inside!
bigdaddy : NOX will sell out unless there is a major problem. The truck will sell on it's looks alone much like the Escape did a few years ago.
Saab has had the 9-3 since the early 90s. It launched a new version of the 9-3 last year. At the same time, Saab dropped the convertible and hatch. The convertible is on the market since October, the hatch will not be here until late this year or early next year.
Meantime in the other divisions, Chevrolet got a new Malibu, new Colorado, new SSR, new Aveo. This year, the Maxx, Corvette, Nox to follow.
Pontiac will have the new G6 and the Solstice.
VUE sales are at Saturn's capacity. Honda has twice Saturn's dealer network, Ford probably four times as many.
Those who read your complaints about GM product are able to consider the source. And the source does not seem all that well-informed.
A few posts ago didn't you say G6, Solstice, minivans,Aveo, Cobalt are all '05 models comming out in the fall? SSR and Vette are low volume models. Are they going to help '04 sales numbers much? Saturn's been around for 10 years or so. You're saying their problem is not having a big enough dealer network?? Couldn't be the consumers not impressed with the product?
Rather, I said Saturn with its current dealer make up and single factory can sell about 80k VUES per year, which is exactly what it did. Given that GM sells as many VUES as it can make, I think one can say the market is fairly impressed with the product.
Until Saturn starts bringing in the Opels, it pretty much duplicates what Chevy is doing. There is no reason to expand VUE production if Chevrolet is already in place to sell the Nox at a pace of more than twice that of the VUE.
Aveo is an '04 model and is already on the market. Cobalt is an '05 model that will hit the market around August. The mini-vans are also '05 models that will hit the market in August.
NOX hits the market in 1-2 months. Colorado has hit already. Maxx is just hitting now also. Tons of product. The Chevy lot looks very different today than it did a few months ago. Up here we also have Optra and Epica models from Daewoo, Chevy is back in a big way.
I have been reading the posts about the intake gasket failures on the Chevy 3100 and 3400 engines. My son has a 98 Monte Carlo with a 3100 and we had to replace the gaskets on his car at 60,000. They were seeping a little but went ahead and replaced them anyway. We are considering an Equinox and I know it has the 3400 engine. I talked to the mechanic at my local Chevy dealer that did the work on my son's car and asked him what fixes if any GM has come up with to address this problem. He says GM feels the problem is with the intake bolts tighten themselves down tighter with the heat and cool cycles of the engine and crushes the gasket material till it splits and then leaks. The remedy is new intake bolts, a new bolt torqueing sequence and a new gasket with steel spacers in the bolt holes so the heat cycles won't overtighten and crush the gasket causing it to split and leak. As far as the rest of the engine, he thinks it's a very durable engine. The new gasket update has be in place about 4 months he thought. Has anyone heard about this? As for the power question, or lack of. While it doesn't have 200 or more horsepower like some SUVs in this class you must remember that it's the engine's torque that propels you from the stop light. In this case the 3400 in the Nox has more torque than most, not all, of the SUVs in this class and accordingly probably better mileage. Food for thought
is how much weight those ft. lb have to move also. The "Honda" Vue is the winner @ 242. Maybe the new X3 has a beter ratio also. Nothing offical yet, but Edwards had the Nox weighing a few hundred pounds more then the Vue and only 210 ft. lb's. Of course, the 3400's probably a major cause of the weight gain. Glad to hear about the gasket fix. My '92 3.1L leaked, so 12 years for a fix. Are these guys work'n on the space shuttle tile problem also. Hehe.
My parents had a 3.4L Alero and I had a 3.1L Cavalier for 8 years, no gasket problems. I am glad to hear it has been addressed though I wasn't overly worried either.
185HP is plenty of power, the VUE used to only have 181 and it was very peppy. It just doesn't look great now that the VUE is almost over powered.
Don't like that steering wheel. Could be a cleaner 3 spoke instead. It does get satellite controls. Center console is narrow and takes less space than usual, which I like. Access to everything was good.
Cool body kit and lovely rims. I think they're 18".
Sorry, I don't recall about the cup holders. I took about 300+ pics so I wouldn't have to remember details. Keep in mind I saw hundreds of vehicles! :-)
Was that rear wiper on the Nox bent already? And is the Chevy bowtie on a Chrome strip pn the rear hatch? Those rims are different then what's been shown in the GM photos. Those the 16" or opt. 17"?
In this artical, Lutz references new product for Saturn due in the next 36 months. The products are to include the Relay, larger companion to the VUE and a sports car (Curve).
Is this an extended wheelbase VUE (i.e., Equinox platform) or a GMT360 based truck?
The Relay is the new Minivan for Saturn. Just the same as the Buick Terraza. http://www.saturn.com/relay - it's the new style of minivans that the GM brands will be getting made to look like SUV's.
From what GM has been the master of (badge-engineering), I'll put my bet that the next "BIG" Saturn is a rebadged TrailBlazer. They already have that basis, so why make another SUV to compete in the same segment? The worst case of two SUVs competing in the same segment is the Envoy and Rendezvous. I couldn't stop thinking to myself, "Don't they know people are going to choose the Envoy over the Buick??"
The Rendevous is not built on the Envoy platform. The Rendevous is not even a truck. The Rendevous shared the Aztek platform. Now that GM dropped the Aztek, the Rendevous is unique.
If you meant the Rainier, while it shares a platform with the Envoy, it has unique elements such as rear air suspension, lower, softer springs, plush, perforated leather, its own V8, and extra sound deadening insulation. All these conspire to make it less useful for construction say, but more luxurious.
If anything, I would say the Ranier is the most distinct current Trailblazer.
I meant that having two different SUVs with third-row seating was not a good idea. Both are different platforms with luxurious interiors, but most people will choose the Envoy over the Rendezvous. I didn't mean the Ranier, as I did mean the RENDEZVOUS.
Comments
They also criticized the Camry for being too expensive and having a dull interior.
From your list, only two of the cars were available, and then only in limited numbers in the fourth quarter.
None of your posts ever make sense. Why bother?
I would pay more to get a more advanced, smoother, OHC engine. Chevy doesn't offer it as an option. It wouldn't hurt them AT ALL to do so.
also note, Motor Trend called the malibu motor 'thrashy'. Not a ringing endorsement. Said it was fine for city driving basically.
I would not hurt chevy AT ALL to offer more sophistication as an option.
AT ALL. No, ifs, ands or buts arguments to that point.
"When you compare them to their competition, none will finish in the top half." In what, sales? Even the Cavalier sold over 256k in 03. Behind only the Civic and Corolla (barely).
Reg-you don't like push rods? I never would have guessed. Get over it. Move on already. I agree with most of your points but GM is not going to drastically change their engine line up anytime soon. Go drive the Bu already, it may not be as bad as you think.
In a year when many major GM products were at the end or near the end of their cycles, GM had a modest dip in market share after two years of gains.
I see no reason get around 29% market share in '04. The shares analysts seem to agree.
Certainly they are better to listen to than someone who miscounts Honda Odyssey annual shares by more than 50k, wouldn't you think?
Reg : I knew you'd drag the old OHC story back within a day. It's in your blood, it's an addiction. ;-)
theo : That's about it, 85 for 95. If people will get in and try a Bu, sales should continue to grow.
well, my last 6 cars have all had overhead cam. 3 of those 6 have been double overhead cam. You tend to not want to go below that level once you've had it. I know you've said you don't really mind but after having an Intrigue it's tough to fathom accepting less.
I still remember the day I was shopping with my wife at the chevy dealer and were choosing between the Prizm and Cavalier. The Prizm was smaller and more expensive. We drove both. The Prizm's powertrain was smaller but a lot better in all aspects. So much so that even my wife in a couple of 5 minutes test drive noticed the huge difference, in overall refinement of the car and mostly engine performance (she commented specifically on it even if she didn't know why). She wouldn't have anything to do with the Cavalier.
And every time I get in my father in law's Olds with 3800 its like going back in a time warp twenty years because the thing is so not up to snuff. Or all the Impalas, Bonnevilles, Regals, Rivieras, Grand Prixs and the likes I have test drove just didn't do it. Neither did the rental 03 bu i had this summer.
But the time I took out the Intrigue it 'intrigued' me....why? Shortstar.
I'll still try to take out a bu soon. Just need a free saturday. Even if I like how it drives, I still can't get over the looks and interior cheese.
The Cobalt looks promising. The Aveo is nice but that doesn't surprise me since it wasn't created in the hallowed halls of detroit.
My guess is that the Aveo will have no problem selling the 70k that GM hopes.
The Nox is a little lacking in the engine dept. but should easily outsell the Tracker.
I also think the Bu and Maxx should do at least as well as the old Malibu.
Joey- I get my sales figures from Automotive News. They publish sales numbers as given to them by the manufacturers.
Just as you mentioned, I [non-permissible content removed] because GM had some good models that could have been home runs and screwed them up by not using styling and powertrains that they already had in their inventory.
I've driven some pretty rude DOHC engines also. 3.5L in the Bu is not a 3.1L. Nothing "cheesy" about the interior of the Malibu either (unless you don't understand the word). Now the last generation Taurus, that has cheese inside!
bigdaddy : NOX will sell out unless there is a major problem. The truck will sell on it's looks alone much like the Escape did a few years ago.
Meantime in the other divisions, Chevrolet got a new Malibu, new Colorado, new SSR, new Aveo. This year, the Maxx, Corvette, Nox to follow.
Pontiac will have the new G6 and the Solstice.
VUE sales are at Saturn's capacity. Honda has twice Saturn's dealer network, Ford probably four times as many.
Those who read your complaints about GM product are able to consider the source. And the source does not seem all that well-informed.
Until Saturn starts bringing in the Opels, it pretty much duplicates what Chevy is doing. There is no reason to expand VUE production if Chevrolet is already in place to sell the Nox at a pace of more than twice that of the VUE.
Aveo is an '04 model and is already on the market. Cobalt is an '05 model that will hit the market around August. The mini-vans are also '05 models that will hit the market in August.
-juice
He says GM feels the problem is with the intake bolts tighten themselves down tighter with the heat and cool cycles of the engine and crushes the gasket material till it splits and then leaks. The remedy is new intake bolts, a new bolt torqueing sequence and a new gasket with steel spacers in the bolt holes so the heat cycles won't overtighten and crush the gasket causing it to split and leak. As far as the rest of the engine, he thinks it's a very durable engine. The new gasket update has be in place about 4 months he thought. Has anyone heard about this?
As for the power question, or lack of. While it doesn't have 200 or more horsepower like some SUVs in this class you must remember that it's the engine's torque that propels you from the stop light. In this case the 3400 in the Nox has more torque than most, not all, of the SUVs in this class and accordingly probably better mileage.
Food for thought
Nothing offical yet, but Edwards had the Nox weighing a few hundred pounds more then the Vue and only 210 ft. lb's. Of course, the 3400's probably a major cause of the weight gain. Glad to hear about the gasket fix. My '92 3.1L leaked, so 12 years for a fix. Are these guys work'n on the space shuttle tile problem also. Hehe.
185HP is plenty of power, the VUE used to only have 181 and it was very peppy. It just doesn't look great now that the VUE is almost over powered.
I think the wheels could be bigger, they look small for the size of the vehicle.
The clear tails are sort of last season. And the angle of the rear hatch makes it look like the one from the Dodge Caravan.
I like the wheel design itself, and the integrated roof rack. Note the bumper guard and protection on the step bumper.
Interior pic:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/p19e20d1b435352960ec7- b4975473bd16/f9f61c6d.jpg
Don't like that steering wheel. Could be a cleaner 3 spoke instead. It does get satellite controls. Center console is narrow and takes less space than usual, which I like. Access to everything was good.
-juice
Good and bad here, too. I didn't like the color or texture of that gray plastic. And the shelf was kind of wobbly.
But...it is carpeted, and versatile. Note the power plug there, too. Note the bag hooks, the tie-downs.
If they boxed off the rear it could fit taller cargo better. It just doesn't seem a lot bigger than the Vue.
-juice
Cool body kit and lovely rims. I think they're 18".
Sorry, I don't recall about the cup holders. I took about 300+ pics so I wouldn't have to remember details. Keep in mind I saw hundreds of vehicles! :-)
Here is the full album:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288056341
-juice
How did the buttons in the NOX compare to the ones in the new V6 VUE ?
I really wanted to try the seats. All they'd tell me is they are the same as the other models, however all the interiors were revised.
I haven't tried the new Vue's interior, though. I hope the seats have improved.
Interior was a definite improvement over my old roommate's Silverado, with its sea of gray buttons.
-juice
;-)
Is this an extended wheelbase VUE (i.e., Equinox platform) or a GMT360 based truck?
GM takes chevys and turns them into buicks, saabs and saturns.
Dodge goes the better path and turns old E class Mercedes into Magnums by adding a hemi.
Difference being, Dodge re-uses the better stuff.
GM re-uses the chevy stuff.
Clearly the NOX and VUE are not a product of badge engineering.
If you meant the Rainier, while it shares a platform with the Envoy, it has unique elements such as rear air suspension, lower, softer springs, plush, perforated leather, its own V8, and extra sound deadening insulation. All these conspire to make it less useful for construction say, but more luxurious.
If anything, I would say the Ranier is the most distinct current Trailblazer.