PACKARDS
Used to post in a previous Packard thread, but it is long gone.
Became a Packard Club member at the end of June and on July 3rd drove up to Tyson's Corner, Virginia for the 37th Annual Packard Meet.
There was no time to officially register for any of the Events, but I did go to the indoor swap meet, which was really interesting.
And on July 4th went to the car Show at Oatlands Plantation in Leesburg , Va.
Seeing all those cars on the basically empty Dulles Parkway was a sight to behold.
It was brutally hot that day, but there were over 150 cars there.
Got to see some incredible Carribbeans and a 1913 Touring car. And everything in between.
Several members have told me it is possible to find good running 120s for $4500.
Where can I find one of these?
Anybody got any ideas?
Everything that I have looked at is around 14K.
Mr. Shiftright?
Became a Packard Club member at the end of June and on July 3rd drove up to Tyson's Corner, Virginia for the 37th Annual Packard Meet.
There was no time to officially register for any of the Events, but I did go to the indoor swap meet, which was really interesting.
And on July 4th went to the car Show at Oatlands Plantation in Leesburg , Va.
Seeing all those cars on the basically empty Dulles Parkway was a sight to behold.
It was brutally hot that day, but there were over 150 cars there.
Got to see some incredible Carribbeans and a 1913 Touring car. And everything in between.
Several members have told me it is possible to find good running 120s for $4500.
Where can I find one of these?
Anybody got any ideas?
Everything that I have looked at is around 14K.
Mr. Shiftright?
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2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
My preference is a '34-38 120. Maybe a '39. The later cars hve too much chrome on the front and those chrome strakes down the side.
Found this on ebay last night.
I imagine the bidding will go much higher though.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1872747168
I also found a '41 110 that at first blush looks good. Upon closer inspection the paint is bad and there are several dents in the body.
Current bidding is at $5900. I would think by the time I got it painted and the chrome done I would be in the hole in a major way.
Plus it will always be a 6 cylinder car not an 8.
And I don't like the front end. Doesn't have what I consider to be the classic packard grille.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1872602681
I'm sure if you "worked" the clubs and just hung around something would come up. Packards tend to be kept by older owners and they like to pass on their cars to people who will care for them. They aren't speculative type collectors as a rule. The real greedheads tend to be in the more modern cars which are bought and sold (sometimes) as commodities rather than objects of affection.
I have made tentative plans to go to the 2003 Meet in Santa Rosa, CA.
I think I need to see a lot more cars before I get a handle on what I am buying.
My observation of the Packard Meet in VA was that I was probably the youngest guy there(39). Most were in their seventies.
I need to spend some more time with these guys and found out what I should look for. I am sure they have a line on a lot of cars that never get advertised.
I saw 4-5 120s and Super 8s there that I could live with. I would guess that they would sell in the 24K-37K range.
Most of these cars were probably in better condition than the average Packard.
I was surprised how many cars at the Meet were not judged. I guess they get them in good shape, have them judged for a couple of years then drive and enjoy them and not worry about a ding or stone chip.
They were probably in the majority.
Quite a few in their 40's.
Might have a lot to do with disposable income, Not just the fact that guys in their 50's are buying musclecars now.
. So if it's a Packard sedan or a cheaper model, I suspect not many people in the future will continue to restore or maintain them, and they will be scrapped/sold off by families/ hot-rodded or modified / driven around and enjoyed until they drop / or just sit there and disintegrate. How many people still drive stagecoaches or ancient bicycles or old fire engines?
However, the big dual-cowls, V12s, special-bodied cars, etc., will always hold their value and always be preserved. The winnowing process in collectible cars always favors the exceptional and discards the ordinary. As restoration costs increase and values decrease, it seems logical that cars that aren't worth much will disappear or be forgotten
I believe in the 3 car ownership plan: One to show, one to go, and one for the shop. LOL.
There is an all Packard Show in Palm Beach this weekend. November 22-24th.
I am going to try to run down there. Spend the night and come back late the next day.
I was once tempted by a 1950 Packard that was for sale. I remember the owner telling me it had an "electric overdrive". Sound familiar?
I also remember him telling me that the automatics..Ultramatics (?)were a total piece of garbage.
Packards got worse and worse as their little empire crumbled, but they always had great engineering. Their last cars weren't executed very well, but the ideas were really quite advanced, with torsion bar suspension, self-leveling, lock up torque converter and electrically operated automatic tranmission, all in 1955. The car was of course a pig to drive as most '55s were in those days but Packard's "swan song" was remarkable in that they attempted to innovate right until their grim and horrible end.
Last true Packard was 1956. Keep the truth alive. Tell your friends.
The V8 engines that were in them are another matter.
The tornsion bar Packards do ride well in that floaty-boaty kind of way--just don't take a fast corner.
Many a time I wished our minivan had one of those.
The sad part about Packard's story is that what ultimately killed the firm was the merger with Studebaker. Packard was still viable when it merged with Studebaker in 1954, but the South Bend firm hid its true breakeven point during the merger talks. Studebaker was pretty much on the ropes by 1954, with uncompetitive labor costs, an outdated plant and no money for new cars (which it needed, as the 1953 line was a sales flop). Packard made some headway in early 1955, but it couldn't overcome severe quality control problems and Studebaker's uncompetitive cost structure. In the end, the bankers decided that Studebaker was (temporarily) worth saving and Packard wasn't.
From what I have read in the 'Rise and Fall of the Pacard Motorcar Corp." there was a downward trend inprofits in the '30s when they brought out the lower line of Pacakrds. They sold more cars than ever (over 200,000 per year) but the profits per car were way way down vs. the big cars.
This caused them to expand production facilities, labor, etc. All to make less per car.
So I think the thirties is when it started to go downhill.
There is a incredible picture of 5 of his cars parked out front.
2 of them are flawless examples of Packard's best.
A 1932 and a 1934 act as bookends in the picture.
His collection is above reproach.
Jamie Lee looks pretty good too.
The owner/seller told me that was the "electric overdrive".
The Packard wouldn't start..."needs something minor"...so I never found out.
After about 30 mph, you push in a knob attached to a cable (like a hood release), then let off the gas and you are in overdrive and "freewheeling". To get out of overdrive, you floor it and a solenoid allows you to get out of freewheel by pulling out the cable.
This is about 1935 tech but it worked pretty well. You only got o/d in second or third gear. The o/d gearset was attached to the regular transmission in the rear. Borg Warner made it. It's a nice option for older cars. Usually, an o/d equipped car had a lower rear end ratio so they were a bit faster off the line.
And I remember how these worked. Pretty slick, and a pretty desirable option.
But, the Packard was different. I don't think it had a handle, just a button. Probably worked the same way only maybe with a switch instead of a cable.
Maybe that's why he called it "electric".?
Even the "electric overdrives" they made in the 80s weren't really electric...I think they just activated little hydraulic pumps that did what the cable used to do.
I was looking forward to seeing the cars.
Turned 40 yesterday. i guess in a couple of years I will be the typical age of a packard owner. So I won't have any excuse not to buy one.
I read somewhere once that they had actually talked about merging Studebaker-Packard and Nash-Hudson. I guess if that were the case, the Studebakers would've been entry-level, with Nashes a step up, then Hudson, then Packard?
Then the Korean War once again slowed down the auto business and gave the "little guys" another breather and more war contracts to keep them alive. But by 1955, it was open warfare, no holds barred in the auto business, and the "little guys" were slaughtered and carved up in short order. Were it not for war shortages, etc., this all would have happened in 1946 or 47 I bet. Packard was basically in the grave in 1940.
Some absolutley stunning cars, many models I have never heard of and lots of perfect Packards.
Pick it up at your newstand.
Kaiser built the liberty ships. Maybe someone thought he deserved special treatment?
Packard built engines for PT boats and probably for JFKs PT 109.
It's not just the independents that did war work. Chrysler built tanks. Caddilac built Tank engines. Ford Built B-24's. A lot of B-24's. Basically, every factory in America was turning out war supplies between 1942 and 1945. Our factories weren't getting bombed, and Germany's were. The Me-262 and the Panzer were much better fighting machines than the P-38 and the Sherman, but we could crank out 10 Sherman tanks for every Panzer the [non-permissible content removed] feilded, and the few Me-262s they put into service, they had trouble finding jet fuel for. Sure, the independents built a lot of war materials, but no more or no less than any other company, so if they were being given special treatment by the Government, it was in the interest of foster competition, not to repay them for wartime production.
Hitler used the Me262 incorrectly, if he had used them against the bombers they would have been devestating.
Apparently our wartime bombing, accomplished with great loss of life, did very little to slow down Germany's production. Their war production actually peaked in 1944 because prior to then their economy was still geared to consumer production and because their armament factories were only working one shift. Then they brought in slave labor, not the most motivated labor force. I have this on the authority of J.K. Galbraith who was in charge of a government survey into this stuff in 1945.
Using the Me 262 for ground support wasn't a great move either.
Speaking of Packards (was someone speaking of Packards?) any truth to the idea that giving Packard's senior(?) bodyshells to the Russians was one nail in the coffin?
Saw a '37 120 yesterday. Packard blue. Nice driver.
Needed paint and chrome. Running boards were rusted underneath the rubber step.
Needed window glass.
Wonder how much this car is worth? 8K, 15K?
Stupid question for Mr. Shiftright. Were the rear bumpers chrome on these cars. many of the ones I have seen the bumpers are painted grey or silver.
What is correct?
"Blood, Tears and Folly." It is an objective look at WW2. It is amazing that England survived after all the gaffes they pulled during the War.
They were in bad shape financially and had some incredibly stupid generals.
The North Atlantic and the Naval losses are stunning to read about.
I never saw a Packard with a factory painted bumper, no.
1937 was Packard's zenith. They never again made that much money or that many cars. It was all downhill from 1937 but it took almost 20 years to die, because of the war reviving business.
Stalin had bought a number of Packards in the 1930s. He liked them. I guess Russia did get ahold of old Packard body dies in the 1940s that Packard wasn't using anymore. I think they were supposed to build staff cars and such for the war.
Yes, I think the small automakers were given the steel first to stimulate competition primarily--that makes sense.
As for the Soviet Union receiving the dies for Packard's old prewar bodies - there is some dispute about this. In the Packard Club's publication (I think it's titled "The Cormorant"), the late GM stylist Dave Holls claims there are too many differences between the Russian ZIS and ZIL and the old prewar Packard One-Sixty and One-Eighty for them to be the same vehicle. On the other hand, in the excellent book, "Packard - A History of the Motor Car and the Company," the author claims that the Roosevelt administration asked the company to sell the old dies to the Soviet Union, and Packard agreed.
Even if that is true, I don't think the sale hurt Packard. The One-Sixty and One-Eighty were outdated before the war compared to the Cadillac and Packard's own Clipper. Packard probably wanted to concentrate on the more modern Clipper (which debuted in early 1941 and was fully competitive with prewar Cadillacs) after the war.
It's too bad the independents didn't merge right after World War II. They might have had a better chance of survival. George Mason of Nash pushed the idea in 1947-48, and Nash and Packard actually came pretty close to merging in 1948. The idea was presented to the Packard board of directors for approval. But there was some disagreement over who would run the combined company.
A combined Nash and Packard would have been an interesting company, and a far better fit than either Nash-Hudson or Studebaker-Packard.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1873337944&category=6389